***OFFICIAL FIRE CHARLIE MANUAL******thread (1 Viewer)

[Milwalkeysbeast]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:

1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.

2. Put in your game 4 starter so he can allow a grand slam homerun by a guy who doesn't hit HRs

3. Just when the bleeding stops, bring out Jose Mesa, a pitcher who should be cleaning floors by now, so he can throw a few more points to his ERA.

4. How about Clay Condrey now? Its a 50/50 chance of him blowing the game out of the water even more - but what the hell? Lets not TIRE OUT our "good" relievers like Gordon, Myers, or Romero - lets save them for the Colorado series.

5. During the post game press conference, stumble like Elmer FUdd and attack local media personalities who question him.

The Phillies blew their load winning the NL east and celebrated like they won the Series, someone forgot to tell them about the playoffs. Its OK Charlie, keep managing as if you have a 3 game lead in the regualr season with 150 games to go.

 

[Doctor Detroit]

This is why Philadelphia fans (who I usually like) get a bad name.

Part time baseball fans are stupid and the Tigers have a really pessimistic bunch of tools in tow. Getting to the playoffs in baseball is equivalent to reaching a conference final in any other sport. If you don't get it, move on and spare us the drama. Even baseball fans I hate (red Sux fans) have more ####### sense than to fire their manager after that magical September. Enjoy being in the playoffs guy, it doesn't happen that often.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

 

[Keys Myaths]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.

Getting out of jams is blind luck. When people are hitting you, they're eventually going to hit you with people on base.You don't really believe that major league pitchers aren't trying as hard with nobody on base? In the playoffs?

 

[Milwalkeysbeast]

A. Kendrick wasn't pitching bad - a chopper to third and an intentional walk were 2 of the 3 on base.

B. The team got to the playoffs despite Charlies bad decisions all season, not because he made the right decisions.

C. I realize making the playoffs is great and wonderful, and I wouldn't mind if this is all they did. However, when the manager of the team is not giving them the best chance to win, and in fact, adding to the chances they will lose - it just doesn't sit well. Its like hitting an inside the park home run, stopping at third and asking to be tagged out. The Phillies played great down the stretch and made the playoffs because of it, but they could have had the NL East in hand if they had a different manager throughout the season

 

[Milwalkeysbeast]

This is why Philadelphia fans (who I usually like) get a bad name. Part time baseball fans are stupid and the Tigers have a really pessimistic bunch of tools in tow. Getting to the playoffs in baseball is equivalent to reaching a conference final in any other sport. If you don't get it, move on and spare us the drama. Even baseball fans I hate (red Sux fans) have more ####### sense than to fire their manager after that magical September. Enjoy being in the playoffs guy, it doesn't happen that often.

BY the way, I RARELY complain about sporting teams in Philadelphia and usually give players and teams the benfit of the doubt. I don't boo people like most Philly fans, but this is just insane what happened today

 

[Doctor Detroit]

A. Kendrick wasn't pitching bad - a chopper to third and an intentional walk were 2 of the 3 on base.B. The team got to the playoffs despite Charlies bad decisions all season, not because he made the right decisions.C. I realize making the playoffs is great and wonderful, and I wouldn't mind if this is all they did. However, when the manager of the team is not giving them the best chance to win, and in fact, adding to the chances they will lose - it just doesn't sit well. Its like hitting an inside the park home run, stopping at third and asking to be tagged out. The Phillies played great down the stretch and made the playoffs because of it, but they could have had the NL East in hand if they had a different manager throughout the season

It's a best of five series, enjoy the games.

 

[Capella]

Leaving Mesa in (in fact, not even having somebody warm) was particularly egregious.

But the reality is they're just getting tossed by a better team.

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

A. Kendrick wasn't pitching bad - a chopper to third and an intentional walk were 2 of the 3 on base.B. The team got to the playoffs despite Charlies bad decisions all season, not because he made the right decisions.C. I realize making the playoffs is great and wonderful, and I wouldn't mind if this is all they did. However, when the manager of the team is not giving them the best chance to win, and in fact, adding to the chances they will lose - it just doesn't sit well. Its like hitting an inside the park home run, stopping at third and asking to be tagged out. The Phillies played great down the stretch and made the playoffs because of it, but they could have had the NL East in hand if they had a different manager throughout the season

He wasn't pitching bad? He gave up 2 HRs in the first. 2 leadoff doubles, and I think, a walk to leadoff the other inning. The only reason he didn't give up more was because the Rockies didn't move the runners over -- didn't even try really. Hell, Burrell had to make a great play on a ball smoked to left, he wasn't fooling anybody. He wasn't pitching bad? Please.I don't know if Manuel's good or bad personally, haven't watched enough. But trying to pin this decision, which wasn't in the least as clear-cut as you want to think it was, is just finding someone to point a finger at because you're so upset. You could just as easily be crying about Lohse choking.Both young pitchers were shaky. Period. Both managers pulled them early. One's the hero, the other the goat. I do however, blame Manuel for those big hits the heart of the order came up with last night. All 0 of them.

 

[RedRaiders]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.2. Put in your game 4 starter so he can allow a grand slam homerun by a guy who doesn't hit HRs3. Just when the bleeding stops, bring out Jose Mesa, a pitcher who should be cleaning floors by now, so he can throw a few more points to his ERA.4. How about Clay Condrey now? Its a 50/50 chance of him blowing the game out of the water even more - but what the hell? Lets not TIRE OUT our "good" relievers like Gordon, Myers, or Romero - lets save them for the Colorado series.5. During the post game press conference, stumble like Elmer FUdd and attack local media personalities who question him.The Phillies blew their load winning the NL east and celebrated like they won the Series, someone forgot to tell them about the playoffs. Its OK Charlie, keep managing as if you have a 3 game lead in the regualr season with 150 games to go.

Back to the shark pool please.I'm going to go out on a limb, but if old Charley knew Lohse would give up a grandslam, he wouldn't have put him in. Hindsight's great. He made a bad decision IMO also, considering the previous hit was an infield single. Still, put some onus on the player here. It was a bad pitch that wasn't where Ruiz wanted it.Give the Rockies some more credit though, they won 91 games this year (93 now).They'll smoke the Cubs or Dbacks.The phils card here is they'll win game 3, and then lead late in game 4 before blowing it and crushing the fan base's hopes again.

 

[Pat Patriot]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.2. Put in your game 4 starter so he can allow a grand slam homerun by a guy who doesn't hit HRs3. Just when the bleeding stops, bring out Jose Mesa, a pitcher who should be cleaning floors by now, so he can throw a few more points to his ERA.4. How about Clay Condrey now? Its a 50/50 chance of him blowing the game out of the water even more - but what the hell? Lets not TIRE OUT our "good" relievers like Gordon, Myers, or Romero - lets save them for the Colorado series.5. During the post game press conference, stumble like Elmer FUdd and attack local media personalities who question him.The Phillies blew their load winning the NL east and celebrated like they won the Series, someone forgot to tell them about the playoffs. Its OK Charlie, keep managing as if you have a 3 game lead in the regualr season with 150 games to go.

Back to the shark pool please.I'm going to go out on a limb, but if old Charley knew Lohse would give up a grandslam, he wouldn't have put him in. Hindsight's great. He made a bad decision IMO also, considering the previous hit was an infield single. Still, put some onus on the player here. It was a bad pitch that wasn't where Ruiz wanted it.Give the Rockies some more credit though, they won 91 games this year (93 now).They'll smoke the Cubs or Dbacks.The phils card here is they'll win game 3, and then lead late in game 4 before blowing it and crushing the fan base's hopes again.

Red, you cant think Charlie Manuel is even an average manager, can you? He is HORRENDOUS. I have watched probably 80-100 Phillies games this year and on his best days he is a Buffoon.You've got the lead. Your pitcher just gave up an intentional walk (this is why I hate the NL. Not that I am a huge DH proponent but when teams are consistently walking a weak #8 hitter to get to the pitcher, I lose interest) and a dribbler to 3rd. It isnt so much bringing in Lohse who is supposed to be your game 3 or 4 starter. It is getting to the bullpen that early. Your Long and Middle relief is the worst in baseball. Given my options (and granted, Gillick didnt give Charlie the best options out of the pen), I've got to stick with the starter for at least another batter.How about Charlie in the press conference after game 1? Towards the end he says "Well, we've got another game to LOSE tomorrow......I mean win." Great video....

 

[Your Mother]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.

Getting out of jams is blind luck. When people are hitting you, they're eventually going to hit you with people on base.You don't really believe that major league pitchers aren't trying as hard with nobody on base? In the playoffs?

Not necessarily. Some pitchers are better out of the stretch than others. See: Corpas, Manny.

 

[Please See Mine]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.2. Put in your game 4 starter so he can allow a grand slam homerun by a guy who doesn't hit HRs3. Just when the bleeding stops, bring out Jose Mesa, a pitcher who should be cleaning floors by now, so he can throw a few more points to his ERA.4. How about Clay Condrey now? Its a 50/50 chance of him blowing the game out of the water even more - but what the hell? Lets not TIRE OUT our "good" relievers like Gordon, Myers, or Romero - lets save them for the Colorado series.5. During the post game press conference, stumble like Elmer FUdd and attack local media personalities who question him.The Phillies blew their load winning the NL east and celebrated like they won the Series, someone forgot to tell them about the playoffs. Its OK Charlie, keep managing as if you have a 3 game lead in the regualr season with 150 games to go.

So every time the Phillies do something wrong, Manuel gets all of the blame. But every time they do something good, he gets none of the credit. Is that right?1. I was not watching at the time. Did Kendrick have good command or not? If he was keeping the ball down (for the most part), I would definitely have left him in. If not, then he can get lit up, because his stuff is not good enough to overcome bad location.2. This isn't even a point that can be argued intelligently on either side. Way to start Rollins, Utley and Howard in game 1 so they could go 0-11 with 8 strikeouts.3. Mesa is dreadful for sure, but what were his options? Gordon was not great the day before. You could make a case for Romero, especially since Hawpe was first up, but Charlie definitely seems a little tentative using Romero in general. This is a debateable point, but the fact is that the bullpen is terrible outside of Myers and Romero.4. Not even sure what you are talking about here. If you are talking about yesterday, see point 3. If you are talking about last Friday, they had a 6-0 lead and he was trying to get a little rest for a bullpen that had been taxed. And Condrey got the job done, which, according to your above logic that the results define what the manager should have done, means that Charlie made the right move. If Condrey even got in a little bit of trouble, he would have definitely be yanked.5. What does this have to with being a good manager? I think there is some truth to your final point, but I don't know if that's all Charlie's fault. If you give the players the credit for the win, why not give them some of the blame for the let down?

 

[Wu-banger]

Manual is a horrible in-game manager .... anyone here who says other wise has not watched enough Phillies games the past two years or does not know anything about baseball.

He does do a good job in the club house for players though , so take that for what it's worth... but It's not worth Manager of the Year consideration.

 

[Please See Mine]

Manual is a horrible in-game manager .... anyone here who says other wise has not watched enough Phillies games the past two years or does not know anything about baseball.

He does do a good job in the club house for players though , so take that for what it's worth... but It's not worth Manager of the Year consideration.

Everyone should agree that he makes some puzzling decisions in-game.To be fair, though, some of his decisions are hampered by the personnel in his pitching staff and the team did make the playoffs. I don't think you can say he's not worthy of consideration for Manager of the Year and the OP's extreme stance is not warranted.

 

[RedRaiders]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:

1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.

2. Put in your game 4 starter so he can allow a grand slam homerun by a guy who doesn't hit HRs

3. Just when the bleeding stops, bring out Jose Mesa, a pitcher who should be cleaning floors by now, so he can throw a few more points to his ERA.

4. How about Clay Condrey now? Its a 50/50 chance of him blowing the game out of the water even more - but what the hell? Lets not TIRE OUT our "good" relievers like Gordon, Myers, or Romero - lets save them for the Colorado series.

5. During the post game press conference, stumble like Elmer FUdd and attack local media personalities who question him.

The Phillies blew their load winning the NL east and celebrated like they won the Series, someone forgot to tell them about the playoffs. Its OK Charlie, keep managing as if you have a 3 game lead in the regualr season with 150 games to go.

Back to the shark pool please.I'm going to go out on a limb, but if old Charley knew Lohse would give up a grandslam, he wouldn't have put him in. Hindsight's great. He made a bad decision IMO also, considering the previous hit was an infield single. Still, put some onus on the player here. It was a bad pitch that wasn't where Ruiz wanted it.

Give the Rockies some more credit though, they won 91 games this year (93 now).

They'll smoke the Cubs or Dbacks.

The phils card here is they'll win game 3, and then lead late in game 4 before blowing it and crushing the fan base's hopes again.

Red, you cant think Charlie Manuel is even an average manager, can you? He is HORRENDOUS. I have watched probably 80-100 Phillies games this year and on his best days he is a Buffoon.You've got the lead. Your pitcher just gave up an intentional walk (this is why I hate the NL. Not that I am a huge DH proponent but when teams are consistently walking a weak #8 hitter to get to the pitcher, I lose interest) and a dribbler to 3rd. It isnt so much bringing in Lohse who is supposed to be your game 3 or 4 starter. It is getting to the bullpen that early. Your Long and Middle relief is the worst in baseball. Given my options (and granted, Gillick didnt give Charlie the best options out of the pen), I've got to stick with the starter for at least another batter.

How about Charlie in the press conference after game 1? Towards the end he says "Well, we've got another game to LOSE tomorrow......I mean win." Great video....

Where did I say he was a good manager? I was just saying, some credit needs to go to Colorado, and all the onus can't be put on Manuel. Players have to win and make plays also. Like PSM said, he gets all the blame when they lose.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.2. Put in your game 4 starter so he can allow a grand slam homerun by a guy who doesn't hit HRs3. Just when the bleeding stops, bring out Jose Mesa, a pitcher who should be cleaning floors by now, so he can throw a few more points to his ERA.4. How about Clay Condrey now? Its a 50/50 chance of him blowing the game out of the water even more - but what the hell? Lets not TIRE OUT our "good" relievers like Gordon, Myers, or Romero - lets save them for the Colorado series.5. During the post game press conference, stumble like Elmer FUdd and attack local media personalities who question him.The Phillies blew their load winning the NL east and celebrated like they won the Series, someone forgot to tell them about the playoffs. Its OK Charlie, keep managing as if you have a 3 game lead in the regualr season with 150 games to go.

Back to the shark pool please.I'm going to go out on a limb, but if old Charley knew Lohse would give up a grandslam, he wouldn't have put him in. Hindsight's great. He made a bad decision IMO also, considering the previous hit was an infield single. Still, put some onus on the player here. It was a bad pitch that wasn't where Ruiz wanted it.Give the Rockies some more credit though, they won 91 games this year (93 now).They'll smoke the Cubs or Dbacks.The phils card here is they'll win game 3, and then lead late in game 4 before blowing it and crushing the fan base's hopes again.

Red, you cant think Charlie Manuel is even an average manager, can you? He is HORRENDOUS. I have watched probably 80-100 Phillies games this year and on his best days he is a Buffoon.You've got the lead. Your pitcher just gave up an intentional walk (this is why I hate the NL. Not that I am a huge DH proponent but when teams are consistently walking a weak #8 hitter to get to the pitcher, I lose interest) and a dribbler to 3rd. It isnt so much bringing in Lohse who is supposed to be your game 3 or 4 starter. It is getting to the bullpen that early. Your Long and Middle relief is the worst in baseball. Given my options (and granted, Gillick didnt give Charlie the best options out of the pen), I've got to stick with the starter for at least another batter.How about Charlie in the press conference after game 1? Towards the end he says "Well, we've got another game to LOSE tomorrow......I mean win." Great video....

Manuel is certainly not a tactician when it comes to when to double switch, when to hit and run, when to go to the bullpen, who to put in.That being said, this team played for him. He was given nothing to work with in the bullpen. He had to put his opening day starter in there to close. The set up men were JC Romero who was released by another team THIS SEASON and Tom Gordon who has a torn rotator cuff and they were the bright spots of the pen. He lost 2 starter in Lieber and Garcia and had to replace them with Kendrick and Durbin. And one of the big off-season signings for this team was Eaton and I don't even want to discuss him, that's how bad he was.It doesn't matter who the manager is, when your bullpen options are Jose Mesa or Clay Condrey that's like choosing whether you want a death by firing squad or hanging.

 

[Keys Myaths]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.

Getting out of jams is blind luck. When people are hitting you, they're eventually going to hit you with people on base.You don't really believe that major league pitchers aren't trying as hard with nobody on base? In the playoffs?

Not necessarily. Some pitchers are better out of the stretch than others. See: Corpas, Manny.

If that were the case, then why wouldn't they just pitch out of the stretch 100% of the time?

 

[Sonny Lubick Blowup Doll]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:

1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.

2. Put in your game 4 starter so he can allow a grand slam homerun by a guy who doesn't hit HRs

3. Just when the bleeding stops, bring out Jose Mesa, a pitcher who should be cleaning floors by now, so he can throw a few more points to his ERA.

4. How about Clay Condrey now? Its a 50/50 chance of him blowing the game out of the water even more - but what the hell? Lets not TIRE OUT our "good" relievers like Gordon, Myers, or Romero - lets save them for the Colorado series.

5. During the post game press conference, stumble like Elmer FUdd and attack local media personalities who question him.

The Phillies blew their load winning the NL east and celebrated like they won the Series, someone forgot to tell them about the playoffs. Its OK Charlie, keep managing as if you have a 3 game lead in the regualr season with 150 games to go.

So every time the Phillies do something wrong, Manuel gets all of the blame. But every time they do something good, he gets none of the credit. Is that right?1. I was not watching at the time. Did Kendrick have good command or not? If he was keeping the ball down (for the most part), I would definitely have left him in. If not, then he can get lit up, because his stuff is not good enough to overcome bad location.

2. This isn't even a point that can be argued intelligently on either side. Way to start Rollins, Utley and Howard in game 1 so they could go 0-11 with 8 strikeouts.

3. Mesa is dreadful for sure, but what were his options? Gordon was not great the day before. You could make a case for Romero, especially since Hawpe was first up, but Charlie definitely seems a little tentative using Romero in general. This is a debateable point, but the fact is that the bullpen is terrible outside of Myers and Romero.

4. Not even sure what you are talking about here. If you are talking about yesterday, see point 3. If you are talking about last Friday, they had a 6-0 lead and he was trying to get a little rest for a bullpen that had been taxed. And Condrey got the job done, which, according to your above logic that the results define what the manager should have done, means that Charlie made the right move. If Condrey even got in a little bit of trouble, he would have definitely be yanked.

5. What does this have to with being a good manager?

I think there is some truth to your final point, but I don't know if that's all Charlie's fault. If you give the players the credit for the win, why not give them some of the blame for the let down?

Posted this earlier in the thread, but I'll say it again. Kendrick gave up 2 HRs in the first. 2 leadoff doubles, and I think, a walk to leadoff the other inning. The only reason he didn't give up more was because the Rockies didn't move the runners over -- didn't even try. Hell, Burrell had to make a great play on a ball smoked to left to keep another run from scoring. The floodgates were there, he wasn't fooling anybody. Yet the OP says he wasn't pitching bad(ly).

 

[Darth Cheney]

Kendrick's a nibbler....he's not going to blow anyone away. The Tuilituilituilitowiski HR was a on a pitch he had no business swinging at; it wasn't a bad pitch as in a mistake....but it was just a bad pitch. That being said, (And I'm a pretty big defender of Manuel) there is no way you yank the guy in that situation; there is no way you walk the catcher earlier, there is no way you pull Lohse for Mesa, and there is no way you start Wes Helms again at 3B. These were all bad moves by Unca Cholly. But get used to it as Unca Cholly earned himself another year.

 

[Snotbubbles]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.

Getting out of jams is blind luck. When people are hitting you, they're eventually going to hit you with people on base.You don't really believe that major league pitchers aren't trying as hard with nobody on base? In the playoffs?

Not necessarily. Some pitchers are better out of the stretch than others. See: Corpas, Manny.

If that were the case, then why wouldn't they just pitch out of the stretch 100% of the time?

Billy Wagner does.

 

[Your Mother]

Manager of the year my ###. So let me get this straight - if I want to become a candidate for manager of the year:1. Take out your second best starting pitcher in the 4th inning after he has showed he can get out of jams through the game.

Getting out of jams is blind luck. When people are hitting you, they're eventually going to hit you with people on base.You don't really believe that major league pitchers aren't trying as hard with nobody on base? In the playoffs?

Not necessarily. Some pitchers are better out of the stretch than others. See: Corpas, Manny.

If that were the case, then why wouldn't they just pitch out of the stretch 100% of the time?

Billy Wagner does.

So does Papelbon.But I'm relating pitcher A from the stretch to pitcher B from the stretch, not Pitcher A from the stretch to Pitcher A from the windup.