== OFFICIAL OAKLAND RAIDERS 2018 thread == (2 Viewers)

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Overall I think Reggie has done a poor job.  He was given the job security to tear down the team and have no expectations to win for 2-3 years.  I don't think getting out of the bad cap situation was the hard part.  All he had to do was cut everybody and not hand out any big contracts for a couple years.  The hard part was building a contending team after that and he definitely failed at that.  His drafts were extremely poor.  After six years the depth was still razor thin and the team had only a few difference makers.  On top of that he had two bad coaching hires.  

On the plus side he did manage the cap well and gave out sensible contracts (with the exception of Seth Roberts) and he wisely built up the offensive line.

Going forward I don't see what role he has in this organization.  Make not mistake, this last draft class was all Gruden and it's all Gruden going forward.

Reggie -- like pretty much everyone tied to the Raider organization right now -- is a polarizing guy. I get it, and and I see truth in both sides of the argument of he's done well and he's failed miserably.

I will ask this as I genuinely don't know the answer -- what teams/GMs over the last 10 years have knocked the draft out of the park consistently? I ask because I genuinely don't know how to gauge Reggie's performance here against the mean.

To me, the draft is always a 50/50 proposition bet at best -- most picks aren't going to become elite. The game is simply, I thought, get players who can simply become consistent starters, which in itself is super hard to do. Is this the actual case league wide? Because from my perspective, here is what Reggie has had a hand in:

• Drafted 4 Pro Bowlers in 6 years (Cooper, Carr, Mack, Lat Murray).
  
• 2012 -- 6 picks, 1 consistent starter (Miles Burris)
  
• 2013 - 10 picks, 1 Pro Bowler (Murray), 1 consistent starter (Sio Moore), a few players that looked promising but flared out (Hayden, Watson)
  
• 2014 - 8 picks, home run draft with 2 pro Bowl franchise players (Mack, Carr), a league-wide caliber starter in Gabe Jackson, and solid starters in Ellis and TJ Carrie
  
• 2015 - 10 picks, 1 pro bowler (Cooper), and a few players who looked promising but flared out (MEJ, Walford).
  
• 2016 - 7 picks, 2 starters in Karl Joseph and DeAndre Washington. I'll use this year to illustrate my point above -- I don't fault them for picking guys like Calhoun who looked raw but promising -- that Calhoun and others like Cory James, Vadal Alexander, Jihad Ward, etc. are no longer on the team and don't start elsewhere is the type of pick you *don't* want to be making, but agtain, it's my impression that these kinds of picks are the majority of how picks pan out in the NFL draft. 
  
• 2017 - 9 picks, 1 guy who looks like he could be a starter (Conley). IMHO jury is still out on Obi and Vanderdoes, both of whom haven't been healthy long enough to really begin to contribute at their potential talent level, but you can't call them NFL starting quality yet.
  

So is that track record truly that terrible compared to league average? 11 or 12 starters, 4 of whom were pro bowlers, in 6 drafts?

Do other teams truly have a better track record drafting consistent starters year-in and year-out? If so, who?

 

[ICON211]

Reggie -- like pretty much everyone tied to the Raider organization right now -- is a polarizing guy. I get it, and and I see truth in both sides of the argument of he's done well and he's failed miserably.

I will ask this as I genuinely don't know the answer -- what teams/GMs over the last 10 years have knocked the draft out of the park consistently? I ask because I genuinely don't know how to gauge Reggie's performance here against the mean.

To me, the draft is always a 50/50 proposition bet at best -- most picks aren't going to become elite. The game is simply, I thought, get players who can simply become consistent starters, which in itself is super hard to do. Is this the actual case league wide? Because from my perspective, here is what Reggie has had a hand in:

• Drafted 4 Pro Bowlers in 6 years (Cooper, Carr, Mack, Lat Murray).
  
• 2012 -- 6 picks, 1 consistent starter (Miles Burris)
  
• 2013 - 10 picks, 1 Pro Bowler (Murray), 1 consistent starter (Sio Moore), a few players that looked promising but flared out (Hayden, Watson)
  
• 2014 - 8 picks, home run draft with 2 pro Bowl franchise players (Mack, Carr), a league-wide caliber starter in Gabe Jackson, and solid starters in Ellis and TJ Carrie
  
• 2015 - 10 picks, 1 pro bowler (Cooper), and a few players who looked promising but flared out (MEJ, Walford).
  
• 2016 - 7 picks, 2 starters in Karl Joseph and DeAndre Washington. I'll use this year to illustrate my point above -- I don't fault them for picking guys like Calhoun who looked raw but promising -- that Calhoun and others like Cory James, Vadal Alexander, Jihad Ward, etc. are no longer on the team and don't start elsewhere is the type of pick you *don't* want to be making, but agtain, it's my impression that these kinds of picks are the majority of how picks pan out in the NFL draft. 
  
• 2017 - 9 picks, 1 guy who looks like he could be a starter (Conley). IMHO jury is still out on Obi and Vanderdoes, both of whom haven't been healthy long enough to really begin to contribute at their potential talent level, but you can't call them NFL starting quality yet.
  

So is that track record truly that terrible compared to league average? 11 or 12 starters, 4 of whom were pro bowlers, in 6 drafts?

Do other teams truly have a better track record drafting consistent starters year-in and year-out? If so, who?

I really don't have any data to compare him to other GMs.  I'm just going by my gut feel.  In my mind the roster was not nearly good enough after 6 years even with Mack and Cooper.  I also think Burris and Sio Moore were only starters because of the state of the Raiders roster so I don't view those as positive picks.  In six drafts I'd say he's had maaaaaybe 10 good picks and that is probably a stretch.  He has had a couple really good picks, but far too many misses.  On 10 first and second round picks I'd say he has 3 hits 6 misses and 1 we don't know yet.  Maybe he would stay on to advise on the cap and i would be ok with that, but I do not like his draft record.

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

I really don't have any data to compare him to other GMs.  I'm just going by my gut feel.  In my mind the roster was not nearly good enough after 6 years even with Mack and Cooper.  I also think Burris and Sio Moore were only starters because of the state of the Raiders roster so I don't view those as positive picks.  In six drafts I'd say he's had maaaaaybe 10 good picks and that is probably a stretch.  He has had a couple really good picks, but far too many misses.  On 10 first and second round picks I'd say he has 3 hits 6 misses and 1 we don't know yet.  Maybe he would stay on to advise on the cap and i would be ok with that, but I do not like his draft record.

I guess this is where I'm coming from as well -- we're gauging Reggie on our own gut and performance, but in absence of quantitative comparison measures, it's hard to tell if Reggie truly is doing a bad job compared to other NFL GMs, or whether we are (understandably) frustrated at the lack of momentum this team has had, though it may not entirely be on Reggie and his drafting ability.

Also hear you about Moore and others only being starters on the Raiders as everyone else was terrible, but that's not on REggie or Moore -- the key is, are we bringing in people who can a) fill starting roles for us and b) would also be a start/key contributor on the average NFL team. Arguable we've done a great job here with about 11 or so I can see, but again, don't know how that stacks up against the NFL average.

 

[ICON211]

I guess this is where I'm coming from as well -- we're gauging Reggie on our own gut and performance, but in absence of quantitative comparison measures, it's hard to tell if Reggie truly is doing a bad job compared to other NFL GMs, or whether we are (understandably) frustrated at the lack of momentum this team has had, though it may not entirely be on Reggie and his drafting ability.

Also hear you about Moore and others only being starters on the Raiders as everyone else was terrible, but that's not on REggie or Moore -- the key is, are we bringing in people who can a) fill starting roles for us and b) would also be a start/key contributor on the average NFL team. Arguable we've done a great job here with about 11 or so I can see, but again, don't know how that stacks up against the NFL average.

We just have to hope Gruden does well the next two years with a high percentage of the picks.  What other choice do we have?  It's tough being a Raider fan, but I'll never give up hope and could never jump ship.

 

[Gr00vus]

Didn't McKenzie put together the team that made the playoffs in 2016? Wasn't that the first time they'd been in the playoffs in like 12 years? If Carr hadn't have gotten injured, they may have won a playoff game or two. I realize that's not a Super Bowl win, but it sure did seem like they were building to something. Surprising how it fell apart so fast.

ETA, I just checked and 2016 was their best record since 2000 and their first winning record since 2002. Crazy.

 

[LawFitz]

Not enough blame is being cast on Gruden. This is a ####### #### show. McKenzie's biggest weakness by far has not been in player selection, but coach selection. Gruden probably wasn't his call, but it'll still become the third strike against him. Why do teams like the Packers, Steelers, Patriots, Ravens, etc. do well year after year? Is it because they draft the best players? That's part of it. But the bigger part is that they develop their talent and coach them well. Raiders haven't had anything like that since Chucky I (the non-senile version). But even that may have been some sort of weird mirage with Al's last stage of coherence balancing out Chucky's lack of ability to select and develop young players. 

Raider fans have been in the desert since the mid 80s. We're going on almost 40 years here and there is no end in sight. The draft picks and cap space would be promising for the franchises that know how to use them. This one doesn't. I'm expecting way more pain over the next decade. Prove me wrong. Please.

 

[DocHolliday]

Not enough blame is being cast on Gruden. This is a ####### #### show. McKenzie's biggest weakness by far has not been in player selection, but coach selection. Gruden probably wasn't his call, but it'll still become the third strike against him. Why do teams like the Packers, Steelers, Patriots, Ravens, etc. do well year after year? Is it because they draft the best players? That's part of it. But the bigger part is that they develop their talent and coach them well. Raiders haven't had anything like that since Chucky I (the non-senile version). But even that may have been some sort of weird mirage with Al's last stage of coherence balancing out Chucky's lack of ability to select and develop young players. 

Raider fans have been in the desert since the mid 80s. We're going on almost 40 years here and there is no end in sight. The draft picks and cap space would be promising for the franchises that know how to use them. This one doesn't. I'm expecting way more pain over the next decade. Prove me wrong. Please.

Well said and my thoughts exactly.   This team was not great but the had some young building blocks.   I will never understand why Gruden got rid of those players.   I hope I am wrong but I don't see anything good for the Raiders in the next few years at least.   Gruden is so out of touch that I don't think he can put a good team together or lead a team either.  

 

[Bruno2]

Well said and my thoughts exactly.   This team was not great but the had some young building blocks.   I will never understand why Gruden got rid of those players.   I hope I am wrong but I don't see anything good for the Raiders in the next few years at least.   Gruden is so out of touch that I don't think he can put a good team together or lead a team either.  

I question this as well. Especially after Kyle Shanahan out coached him with a practice squad QB. Probably one of the most embarrassing Raider games I've ever watched.

 

[RaiderBones]

I question this as well. Especially after Kyle Shanahan out coached him with a practice squad QB. Probably one of the most embarrassing Raider games I've ever watched.

The Raiders may have played against a practice squad QB, but the 49ers were playing against a practice squad team (Raiders).

 

[Chaka]

Probably one of the most embarrassing Raider games I've ever watched.

I'm struggling to think of a worse one.

 

[32 Counter Pass]

Stay tuned.  ?

 

[joey]

I'm struggling to think of a worse one.

The Monday night game where Jerry Rice scored like 20 TDs against us to break Jim Browns TD record. 

and the other Monday night game where Favre's dad died a few days before an he laid a million TD passes on us. 

 

[Bruno2]

The Raiders may have played against a practice squad QB, but the 49ers were playing against a practice squad team (Raiders).

True, that game had a very preseason feel to it. As a Bay Area native, it was sad to see so many empty seats for that game.

 

[Chaka]

The Monday night game where Jerry Rice scored like 20 TDs against us to break Jim Browns TD record. 

and the other Monday night game where Favre's dad died a few days before an he laid a million TD passes on us. 

I don't know about that. Having two first ballot HoFers drop a bunch of TDs on you is one thing, having a street free agent QB and a bunch of street free agent RBs do the same seems worse IMO.

And I think everyone saw Favre's performance coming when his dad died. I know I did.

 

[joey]

I don't know about that. Having two first ballot HoFers drop a bunch of TDs on you is one thing, having a street free agent QB and a bunch of street free agent RBs do the same seems worse IMO.

And I think everyone saw Favre's performance coming when his dad died. I know I did.

I just remember feeling like "of course they have career games against us on national tv" whereas I expected us to lose the 9er game this year. I also fully expected their QB to have that first-time-breakout because a) we really stink and b) first time QBs with no tape sometimes have that magical first game and then come back to earth. We were his magical first game. 

Another contributor for me might also be that I was a "fanatic" for the Raiders back in those days, and now, I’m kinda just stuck with them out of habit, so my emotional investment is much lower. 

 

[DA RAIDERS]

i was at that favre game.     every time he threw the ball as far as he could, it was a td.

 

[Bruno2]

It's a miracle!!!

 

[joey]

Ugh. They can’t do anything right. They needed to lose that game!! 

But, seriously, why does Washington get the ball at all. He looks horrible and runs with cement shoes. I want all Richard, all the time. Except, um, lose the game please. 

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Got the win, boys, cue up Kool and the Gang.

Though it still hurts my heart seeing Mack force another fumble through sheer source of will on prime time.

I can’t quit you, Mack.

 

[Chaka]

Ugh. They can’t do anything right. They needed to lose that game!! 

But, seriously,... 

Seriously they can't even tank right.

 

[Max Power]

It was all the young guys making plays that won the game.  You have to like that at least. 

 

[kaso]

Tough weekend for the Raiders 2019 draft.  Raiders, Bears, Cowboys all win... 

 

[kaso]

LaFell tore his achilles.  Not a big name, but he was making some plays for the Raiders.  The next man up might be pulled out of the stands...

 

[DocHolliday]

Tough weekend for the Raiders 2019 draft.  Raiders, Bears, Cowboys all win... 

Watching Mack is the most painful by far for me.  Cooper is a nice WR but he is not an elite talent like Mack.  And, Mack joined a good D making it great.  Cooper joined a very run-heavy O with an average QB.  Cooper is not going to blow up very often if ever.  Mack has never stopped blowing up.  He is in the backfield with the QB on what feels like every play. 

 

[DocHolliday]

LaFell tore his achilles.  Not a big name, but he was making some plays for the Raiders.  The next man up might be pulled out of the stands...

It is tough to be a Raiders WR.  LaFell was always a steady contributor at the WR position over the years. 

 

[Bruno2]

What is it week 12? And Gruden and Carr are obviously not on the same page yet. That's the most concerning part for me. 

Gruden loves Richard.

Conley can't tackle yet, but he seems to be a decent cover corner. 

Miller, Hall and Hurst look like they can be starters, Key, I'm not so sure about yet.

 

[Max Power]

LaFell tore his achilles.  Not a big name, but he was making some plays for the Raiders.  The next man up might be pulled out of the stands...

I'm buying on Ateman.  I really liked the kid coming out of college. 

 

[DocHolliday]

I'm buying on Ateman.  I really liked the kid coming out of college. 

He has to get targets since there is not much left at WR.  Amazing where the Raiders are at the WR position.  Be good to get a look at Ateman.  Seemed to lack quickness to me but I haven't paid that much attention to him. 

 

[Charlie Harper]

I hope after seeing that Monday Night Masterpiece everyone realizes just how far behind we are and that blowing up the team by trading Mack and Cooper was a great decision. 

Now it's up to Gruden to hit on the picks....but there should be no question our team is no where close to competing. 

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

I hope after seeing that Monday Night Masterpiece everyone realizes just how far behind we are and that blowing up the team by trading Mack and Cooper was a great decision. 

Now it's up to Gruden to hit on the picks....but there should be no question our team is no where close to competing. 

To be fair, we can absolutely compete with either of these teams -- and with any other team in the league, for that matter -- in terms of letting the opponent hang more than 50 points on us.

 

[Chaka]

I hope after seeing that Monday Night Masterpiece everyone realizes just how far behind we are and that blowing up the team by trading Mack and Cooper was a great decision. 

Now it's up to Gruden to hit on the picks....but there should be no question our team is no where close to competing. 

Trading Mack is, was and always will be a horrible decision.

 

[kaso]

We're number (thirty)-ONE! We're number (thirty)-ONE!

https://pro32.ap.org/poll

After 4 weeks straight of sitting on the dread 32nd spot we have moved up to 31 in the AP Power Rankings.   Celebrate as you'd like.

 

[joey]

We're number (thirty)-ONE! We're number (thirty)-ONE!

https://pro32.ap.org/poll

After 4 weeks straight of sitting on the dread 32nd spot we have moved up to 31 in the AP Power Rankings.   Celebrate as you'd like.

Damn it. I want to be 32nd. I want the 1st overall pick locked up by week 14. Just tank, baby!

 

[joey]

I don’t know about you all but it’s nice to see Cooper playing well. Good for him. I wish him the best. 

 

[Sarlakticacid]

I don’t know about you all but it’s nice to see Cooper playing well. Good for him. I wish him the best. 

Agreed. Hopefully his play will wake Carr up and realize you can trust some WRs

 

[DocHolliday]

I don’t know about you all but it’s nice to see Cooper playing well. Good for him. I wish him the best. 

I will always be a fan of Cooper.  He worked hard while a Raider and was never a problem.   It's not his fault the Raiders are dysfunctional.   The success of Mack, Cooper, Bears and Cowboys this season just keep proving Gruden was a big mistake.    

 

[FreshiZ]

We signed Hatcher back this week. Will be nice to see if he can get some work.

 

[DocHolliday]

We signed Hatcher back this week. Will be nice to see if he can get some work.

Does that matter?  

 

[FreshiZ]

Does that matter?  

Just adding to the conversation of who's going to catch the ball

 

[DocHolliday]

Just adding to the conversation of who's going to catch the ball

Your remark was fine.  I don't mean to sound like an a hole to you.    My comment was towards the Raiders since they look so pathetic and have no talent at WR.   

 

[FreshiZ]

Your remark was fine.  I don't mean to sound like an a hole to you.    My comment was towards the Raiders since they look so pathetic and have no talent at WR.   

No worries, it's been almost 20 years of hell and then we're finally teased 2 years ago and now back to what looks to be our dysfunctional selves. Wears on all of us

 

[Bruno2]

I got a bad feeling about this one. Jackson could run all over this defense. It might get ugly

 

[joey]

We're #1 (overall pick)

We're #1 (overall pick)

 

[Sarlakticacid]

That Cook catch!

 

[Stompin' Tom Connors]

Looking ahead. Will think about sharing my own tear-down assessment of what I think the team should look for over the next 2 years to put the pieces that we need in quickly through draft and FA, but watching tonight's game, wonder if we should be looking at Clay Matthews as a FA.

Fits a definitive area of need, he's past prime so wouldn't expect eliteness or anywhere near it but perhaps could use 2 more seasons of consistent productivity and some veteran presence and smarts to fill gaps in play and teach the young'ins.

We'll have the money -- it isn't the strongest FA class coming up, but we will have some cash to play with -- who else do you think we should be targeting?

 

[Bruno2]

Looking ahead. Will think about sharing my own tear-down assessment of what I think the team should look for over the next 2 years to put the pieces that we need in quickly through draft and FA, but watching tonight's game, wonder if we should be looking at Clay Matthews as a FA.

Fits a definitive area of need, he's past prime so wouldn't expect eliteness or anywhere near it but perhaps could use 2 more seasons of consistent productivity and some veteran presence and smarts to fill gaps in play and teach the young'ins.

We'll have the money -- it isn't the strongest FA class coming up, but we will have some cash to play with -- who else do you think we should be targeting?

I don't think they will be targeting any big free agents next season. It's such a transitional period for them in 2019. Just my opinion, but I bet it would be tough to lure someone to the organization when they don't even know where they will be playing. 2020 is when I expect they catch the big fish with the new stadium, better supporting cast, and no state taxes.

 

[DocHolliday]

I don't think they will be targeting any big free agents next season. It's such a transitional period for them in 2019. Just my opinion, but I bet it would be tough to lure someone to the organization when they don't even know where they will be playing. 2020 is when I expect they catch the big fish with the new stadium, better supporting cast, and no state taxes.

Agree with Bruno.  If the Raiders are sending off great, young players this season to build towards the future, I don't see the point in signing a vet like Mathews next year.  Next year should be another tank season with a bunch of non-names taking the field.   

 

[FreshiZ]

What FA is even going to want to play with us? We'll get all the rejects 

It will come down to sit out the season opener and wait for injuries to happen and get picked up mid season or sign with the Raiders...

 

[DA RAIDERS]

What FA is even going to want to play with us? We'll get all the rejects 

It will come down to sit out the season opener and wait for injuries to happen and get picked up mid season or sign with the Raiders...

This. 

No no one will want to play, with the lame ### raiders. Cleveland is more appealing. The only way to get quality players, will be to over pay for them.  

And, when they move to Vegas, there are other states,  with no state taxes.  It will be an appeal, but not that big of one. 

Eta:  Seattle, Dallas, Houston, Tampa, Miami, Jax and then  Vegas. Same offer, who do you pick?  

 

[DocHolliday]

This. 

No no one will want to play, with the lame ### raiders. Cleveland is more appealing. The only way to get quality players, will be to over pay for them.  

And, when they move to Vegas, there are other states,  with no state taxes.  It will be an appeal, but not that big of one. 

Eta:  Seattle, Dallas, Houston, Tampa, Miami, Jax and then  Vegas. Same offer, who do you pick?  

It is timed to stop lumping Cleveland in with the crummy teams now.  Cleveland is now a good, up and coming team that should be in the playoffs next season.  In the very near future, the Raiders will be used as the example of the team that is the laughing stock of the NFL.