*** Official Pete Buttigieg Thread *** (4 Viewers)

[Henry Ford]

What critics?

Organizations that spend money on political activities or candidate advocacy but are not required to disclose their funding.  Why, is that important?

 

[rockaction]

Organizations that spend money on political activities or candidate advocacy but are not required to disclose their funding.  Why, is that important?

I was trying, via the question, to point out that "critics" in the article were the dark money groups themselves, none of whom I'd ever heard of (though 501(c)'s and the like are not my strength). It's sourced from the website "Common Dreams," another sort of "who are you?" publication. I was sort of saying that it seemed a bit ginned up from the prog wing of the Dem Party.

 

[Henry Ford]

I was trying, via the question, to point out that "critics" in the article were the dark money groups themselves, none of whom I'd ever heard of (though 501(c)'s and the like are not my strength). It's sourced from the website "Common Dreams," another sort of "who are you?" publication. I was sort of saying that it seemed a bit ginned up from the prog wing of the Dem Party.

Yeah, I was going along with it by giving the definition of a dark money group in my response.

 

[rockaction]

Yeah, I was going along with it by giving the definition of a dark money group in my response.

Gotcha. I missed that. Now that you explain it I see it. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Gotcha. I missed that. Now that you explain it I see it. 

Also, I just noticed there's an "OpEd" on the front page of that site written by Bonnie Castillo, a regular contributor for the site, about how great Bernie is.  She's the executive director of National Nurses United.  Which runs the SuperPAC that backs Bernie.

 

[ren hoek]

Our Revolution is a dark money group.  You may not like that term, but it's exactly what it is.

He’s basically lumping climate/minority/immigrant groups in with huge corporate donors.  Big difference in the nature of an outfit like Dream Defenders and oil/finance/pharmaceutical lobbies.  

 

[Henry Ford]

He’s basically lumping climate/minority/immigrant groups in with huge corporate donors.  Big difference in the nature of an outfit like Dream Defenders and oil/finance/pharmaceutical lobbies.  

He's using the term that describes the organization.  And lots of other organizations.  It's called "dark money" because it doesn't have to disclose its funding under the law.

So, yeah, I guess it is pretty different.  Everyone knows where oil/finance/pharmaceutical lobbies get their money.

"Dark money" isn't about the nefarious source of the money.  It's about the fact that we don't have a legal right to know where the money comes from.  

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

He's using the term that describes the organization.  And lots of other organizations.  It's called "dark money" because it doesn't have to disclose its funding under the law.

So, yeah, I guess it is pretty different.  Everyone knows where oil/finance/pharmaceutical lobbies get their money.

"Dark money" isn't about the nefarious source of the money.  It's about the fact that we don't have a legal right to know where the money comes from.  

All true, but "dark money" has a very sinister and negative connotation that doesn't really seem to apply so much to the groups supporting Bernie.  

 

[msommer]

All true, but "dark money" has a very sinister and negative connotation that doesn't really seem to apply so much to the groups supporting Bernie.  

How do you know if

we don't have a legal right to know where the money comes from.  

?

ETA: Even if they disclose something it's not as if it can be checked

 

[Henry Ford]

All true, but "dark money" has a very sinister and negative connotation that doesn't really seem to apply so much to the groups supporting Bernie.  

Oh, okay. If you guys could just let me know who all the individual people are who are contributing so that I know that for sure, I'll withdraw all of my comments.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

How do you know if

?

ETA: Even if they disclose something it's not as if it can be checked

I think it's important to think about why disclosure laws are helpful and why dark money groups are problematic.  Many dark money groups hide themselves behind ambiguous and misleading names to prevent voters from knowing the true interests of the group.  For example, "Citizens for Better Medicare" is actually an organization funded by the pharmaceutical industry.  If a candidate is receiving money from Citizens For Better Medicare, a voter might be misled to believe that the candidate was merely receiving help from some citizen advocacy group rather than from a profit-making industry.

By contrast, it appears that the organizations on the list that are helping Bernie all seem to be established advocacy groups with websites that describe their beliefs and what their interests are.  For example:

Student Action US:  

Student Action is a diverse movement of young people whose lives are in crisis. Many of us have huge amounts of debt, have families struggling to make ends meet, or never went to college because we couldn’t afford it. And all of us are committed to living in a world where the amount of money in your bank account doesn’t prevent you from getting an education. Our Student Action members support each other and challenge each other to step up and organize our communities and campuses. We are fiercely committed to building power, and waging a long term fight for a new economy and world— one that works for the many, not just the few.

Student Action, a branch of People’s Action, utilizes direct action, electoral work, and narrative building and storytelling to push our elected officials to fully fund higher education. We also demand that fully funded and free higher education be accessible to all students, including undocumented and formerly incarcerated students.

Progressive Democrats of America:

Progressive Democrats of America is guided by the progressive vision of a renewed nation, fully integrated into the community of nations and peoples, respectful of the rule of law at home and abroad and committed to the universal values of human dignity, justice and respect and stewardship of the planet on which we live.

Progressive Democrats of America was founded in 2004 to transform the Democratic Party and our country. We seek to build a party and government controlled by citizens, not corporate elites—with policies that serve the broad public interest, not just private interests. We are a grassroots PAC operating inside the Democratic Party, and outside in movements for peace and justice. Our inside/outside strategy is guided by the belief that a lasting majority will require a revitalized Democratic Party built on firm progressive principles. Progressive Democrats of America’s vision is rooted in the aspirations of all people for liberty, economic opportunity, guarantees of civil and human rights, peace, and social justice.

Progressive Democrats of America is guided by the progressive vision of a renewed nation, fully integrated into the community of nations and peoples, respectful of the rule of law at home and abroad and committed to the universal values of human dignity, justice and respect and stewardship of the planet on which we live. Therefore, Progressive Democrats of America stands in opposition to militarism, corporatism, and economic and military imperialism. We believe that our domestic and international policies must be reoriented from that of maintaining a world wide military empire to one of meeting the needs of our citizens for healthcare, education, nutrition, decent housing and jobs. We believe that our tax system must be based on the idea of a graduated system of payment in which the corporations and wealthy pay their fair share. We believe that government has a moral and constitutional responsibility to foster the welfare and prosperity of the people under its jurisdiction. It is our responsibility to form a government that can enact that mandate.

We believe that the bill of rights is an inviolable covenant with the American people and accept as our solemn mission the defense of our constitutionally guaranteed liberties. Our heritage stems from the great social and liberation movements of the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, and we are in solidarity with the labor, woman’s rights, civil rights, environmental and peace and justice movements of today. We support the right of all people to organize trade unions and bargain collectively. We oppose any restrictions upon or intimidation of the people to organize in efforts to protect their rights. We support peoples around the world who struggle for basic human rights and self-determination.

So while it's true we don't know the names of the individuals funding these organizations, we have a pretty good idea that these aren't organizations that are deliberately obfuscating what their interests are.  If you're someone that, for example, is opposed to reducing student loan debts, then knowing that Student Action US is supporting Bernie is actually useful information that you can use to inform your voting and decide not to vote for Bernie.  By contrast, unless you know that Citizens for Better Medicare is an industry group, then its support for a candidate provides no useful information.

 

[ren hoek]

He's using the term that describes the organization.  And lots of other organizations.  It's called "dark money" because it doesn't have to disclose its funding under the law.

So, yeah, I guess it is pretty different.  Everyone knows where oil/finance/pharmaceutical lobbies get their money.

"Dark money" isn't about the nefarious source of the money.  It's about the fact that we don't have a legal right to know where the money comes from.  

It would be more accurate to say ‘because Bloomberg is tossing billions of dollars around, and Bernie Sanders is getting money from a nurse organization & the Sunrise Movement, I am abandoning all principles and accepting corporate cash.’  

He is conflating billionaire donor elites with grassroots orgs, and using it as an excuse to “change the goalposts.” 

 

[Henry Ford]

I think it's important to think about why disclosure laws are helpful and why dark money groups are problematic.  Many dark money groups hide themselves behind ambiguous and misleading names to prevent voters from knowing the true interests of the group.  For example, "Citizens for Better Medicare" is actually an organization funded by the pharmaceutical industry.  If a candidate is receiving money from Citizens For Better Medicare, a voter might be misled to believe that the candidate was merely receiving help from some citizen advocacy group rather than from a profit-making industry.

By contrast, it appears that the organizations on the list that are helping Bernie all seem to be established advocacy groups with websites that describe their beliefs and what their interests are.  For example:

Student Action US:  

Progressive Democrats of America:

So while it's true we don't know the names of the individuals funding these organizations, we have a pretty good idea that these aren't organizations that are deliberately obfuscating what their interests are.  If you're someone that, for example, is opposed to reducing student loan debts, then knowing that Student Action US is supporting Bernie is actually useful information that you can use to inform your voting and decide not to vote for Bernie.  By contrast, unless you know that Citizens for Better Medicare is an industry group, then its support for a candidate provides no useful information.

Thank you for pointing those two organizations out.  Primarily because Student Action.us is a division of People's Action (A PAC, not a dark money organization) and Progressive Democrats of America is a division of Progressive Vote, a hybrid PAC/Super PAC (also not a dark money organization.)

 

[Henry Ford]

Wait, you didn't know those grassroots organizations are divisions of political action committees, one of which is a hybrid SuperPAC?

 

[Henry Ford]

It would be more accurate to say ‘because Bloomberg is tossing billions of dollars around, and Bernie Sanders is getting money from a nurse organization & the Sunrise Movement, I am abandoning all principles and accepting corporate cash.’  

He is conflating billionaire donor elites with grassroots orgs, and using it as an excuse to “change the goalposts.” 

Bloomberg isn't a dark money organization.  We know where his money comes from.  Draining the blood of virgins to sell to Republicans to attain eternal life.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Thank you for pointing those two organizations out.  Primarily because Student Action.us is a division of People's Action (A PAC, not a dark money organization) and Progressive Democrats of America is a division of Progressive Vote, a hybrid PAC/Super PAC (also not a dark money organization.)

What are the nine dark money groups that Buttigieg was talking about then?  I was assuming that the tweet responding to Buttigieg's tweet was listing the nine groups.

 

[Henry Ford]

What are the nine dark money groups that Buttigieg was talking about then?  I was assuming that the tweet responding to Buttigieg's tweet was listing the nine groups.

Did you know where Student Action.us gets its money?

Did you know where Progressive Democrats of America gets its money?

I don't know what groups in particular he was referring to without looking into it,  but that's what dark money is.

 

[Henry Ford]

So this political action committee funds a "grassroots organization of chapters of college students across the country" that then works for what the political action committee supports.  You're good with that? You'd rather that than have your candidate be supported by a political action committee?

Edit: by the way, if you try to donate to Student Action, it routes you to People's Action donation. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Did you know where Student Action.us gets its money?

Did you know where Progressive Democrats of America gets its money?

I don't know what groups in particular he was referring to without looking into it,  but that's what dark money is.

I'll answer but can you help me because I'm hopelessly confused here.

There's a tweet from Buttigieg accusing Sanders of being funded by nine dark money groups.

Then there's a tweet from Democratic Socialists of America listing nine groups, including StudentAction.us and Progressive Democrats of America.

I assumed that the nine groups Buttigieg was talking about were the nine groups the Democratic Socialists of America identified.

Do you think that assumption is wrong?  Because if it is it might change my view on this.

 

[Henry Ford]

I'll answer but can you help me because I'm hopelessly confused here.

There's a tweet from Buttigieg accusing Sanders of being funded by nine dark money groups.

Then there's a tweet from Democratic Socialists of America listing nine groups, including StudentAction.us and Progressive Democrats of America.

I assumed that the nine groups Buttigieg was talking about were the nine groups the Democratic Socialists of America identified.

Do you think that assumption is wrong?  Because if it is it might change my view on this.

Just looked into it.  Easy look, in fact.  Yes, the nine groups he's referring to are:

Center for Popular Democracy (CPD) Action, People's Action, Dream Defenders, the Sunrise Movement, Make the Road Action, Our Revolution, Democratic Socialists of America, Progressive Democrats of America, and Student Action.

They're referred to as "People Power For Bernie"

Side note: Our Revolution should absolutely not be involved in this.  When a candidate starts a nonprofit and it accepts donations to support that candidate, that's unbelievably shady.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Thank you for pointing those two organizations out.  Primarily because Student Action.us is a division of People's Action (A PAC, not a dark money organization) and Progressive Democrats of America is a division of Progressive Vote, a hybrid PAC/Super PAC (also not a dark money organization.)

Just looked into it.  Easy look, in fact.  Yes, the nine groups he's referring to are:

Center for Popular Democracy (CPD) Action, People's Action, Dream Defenders, the Sunrise Movement, Make the Road Action, Our Revolution, Democratic Socialists of America, Progressive Democrats of America, and Student Action.

OK, so can you square your insistence that these were not dark money groups with Buttigieg's claim that they are?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

So this political action committee funds a "grassroots organization of chapters of college students across the country" that then works for what the political action committee supports.  You're good with that? You'd rather that than have your candidate be supported by a political action committee?

It's not about what I would "rather have."  It's about whether Buttigieg was trying to create a misleading impression with his tweet.  To me it seems like he was.

 

[Henry Ford]

OK, so can you square your insistence that these were not dark money groups with Buttigieg's claim that they are?

Perhaps I was being confusing.  I didn't say they're not dark money groups. I said that they're funded by registered political action committees, not grassroots individuals, which you don't know because they're dark money groups.

 

[Henry Ford]

"I don't take support from SuperPAC donors! I take support from 501c3 organizations funded by SuperPAC donors!" just doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

 

[Henry Ford]

It's even better if you really dive into it - if you start a chapter of Student Action, your "members" each pay $5 a month in dues, which are donations to People's Action, and never show up as contributions publicly because no one donates more than $200 per cycle and which has only supported one candidate in this cycle according to OpenSecrets - Bernie Sanders!

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

"I don't take support from SuperPAC donors! I take support from 501c3 organizations funded by SuperPAC donors!" just doesn't quite have the same ring to it.

What kind of ring does “nine dark money groups support Bernie” have?

 

[Cowboysfan8]

it's been close to a generation since medical decisions have been made on my behalf with health as a more important factor than liability & billability

Exactly

 

[jm192]

it's been close to a generation since medical decisions have been made on my behalf with health as a more important factor than liability & billability

I can't speak to billability.  I'm a physician that works in a hospital.  I see who shows up.  Whether or not you have insurance, I never know.  

But I 1000% agree that liability plays a huge factor.  And I think tort reform would cut a lot of fat out of the system.

 

[Sheriff Bart]

Bloomberg isn't a dark money organization.  We know where his money comes from.  Draining the blood of virgins to sell to Republicans to attain eternal life.

Is there a website or something where you can buy this?

 

[Henry Ford]

What kind of ring does “nine dark money groups support Bernie” have?

A true one. And better than “Bernie currently has a tax exempt organization he personally started that doesn’t have to disclose its donors and is part of his group of nine dark money groups advertising that they’re supporting him, including financially.  Which isn’t actually legal.”

 

[Henry Ford]

Is there a website or something where you can buy this?

Dark web.  Har har. 

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

A true one. And better than “Bernie currently has a tax exempt organization he personally started that doesn’t have to disclose its donors and is part of his group of nine dark money groups advertising that they’re supporting him, including financially.  Which isn’t actually legal.”

What about “Bernie is being supported by PACs just like me”?  That seems like the most honest way to say it.

 

[Henry Ford]

What about “Bernie is being supported by PACs just like me”?  That seems like the most honest way to say it.

Does it? PACs have to disclose their donors. Our Revolution accepts anonymous six figure donations and is owned by the candidate it supports. Do those sound like the same thing?

 

[ren hoek]

What about “Bernie is being supported by PACs just like me”?  That seems like the most honest way to say it.

Imagine thinking that nurse organizations and climate change activists are more insidious than the billionaire oligarchs Pete frolics around with.  

 

[Henry Ford]

Imagine thinking that nurse organizations and climate change activists are more insidious than the billionaire oligarchs Pete frolics around with.  

Who are the two donors who anonymously donated over $100,000 each to Our Revolution?

Who is the source of the money from the Sixteen Thirty Fund that donated $100,000?

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

Who are the two donors who anonymously donated over $100,000 each to Our Revolution?

What do you think it would tell us about Sanders if we knew their names?

 

[Henry Ford]

What do you think it would tell us about Sanders if we knew their names?

I don’t know. And I never will. Because we won’t know their names. Which is what makes it dark money. 

 

[Henry Ford]

“It’s only dark money if you don’t trust the candidate it’s donated to” is a weird position. 

 

[Leroy Hoard]

Wow, I never realized politicians could be bought out by people. Maybe we should just support the people doing the buying.

 

[fatguyinalittlecoat]

“It’s only dark money if you don’t trust the candidate it’s donated to” is a weird position. 

“Support from Citizens for a Better Tomorrow is indistinguishable from support from the Democratic Socialists” seems like an even worse position.

 

[BassNBrew]

I'm asking you why it is obvious to you that Pete is  more likely to lob missiles at Syria than Bernie is.  

Pete is more likely to be wooed by the military industrial complex than Bernie

 

[BassNBrew]

I'm not understanding your claim.  I work for Ford and I can continue to get my insurance through Ford under Pete's plan for the foreseeable future.  I keep my HSA and I like the system.  If M4A gets me better health insurance and more money in my pocket, I'd be interested.  Until then, I'm good with my BCBS plan and saving money in the HSA.  I'm glad Pete is offering Medicare coverage to some who may want it, but I'll pass at this point.

I was referring to the people not getting a US taxpayer subsidized company plan. Maybe some wants to self insure but doesn’t have that option 

 

[ren hoek]

“It’s only dark money if you don’t trust the candidate it’s donated to” is a weird position. 

What do you figure he meant by 'changing the goal posts'?  Because it sounds like he wants to use this as an excuse to open the floodgates to corporate money.  

I can't imagine any serious person finding those 9 orgs to be comparable with what people naturally associate to 'dark money.'  

 

[Henry Ford]

“Support from Citizens for a Better Tomorrow is indistinguishable from support from the Democratic Socialists” seems like an even worse position.

The fact that two things are categorized as dark money does not make them indistinguishable from one another. Much like Enron was a corporation and the computer repair shop down the street is a corporation.  If you don’t look farther then general categories... well, that’s how bad decisions get made in this world I guess. 
 

Edit: I am a lawyer and Rudy Giuliani is a lawyer. On my best days I like to think I am at least distinguishable from Rudy Giuliani.  If nothing else I believe I have better teeth. 

 

[Henry Ford]

Here’s a question, @fatguyinalittlecoat, if I were the NRA and I wanted to donate to Bernie right now (and if I were the NRA I would want to donate to Bernie right now) would I do so anonymously to an organization that only supports him, or with my actual name?

 

[Henry Ford]

Pete is more likely to be wooed by the military industrial complex than Bernie

Why? Because he was in the military? 

 

[wikkidpissah]

Why? Because he was in the military? 

*Gumbivoice* Cuz no one has wooed Bernie Sanders since 1974 and that's a fact. I'm Bernie, dammit! */Gumbivoice*

 

[Mister CIA]

I don’t know. And I never will. Because we won’t know their names. Which is what makes it dark money. 

I love lawyer talk.    

 

[Mister CIA]

Why? Because he was in the military? 

I'd tell you why, but it's complex.

 

[Henry Ford]

I'd tell you why, but it's complex.

Something something industrial.