OP/ED "The Trouble With Socialism Is That Eventually You Run Out Of Other People's Money." (4/22/22 21:05PST) (1 Viewer)

[timschochet]

As long as we are the petrodollar, i.e. the reserve currency of the world, then yes.  This is unlikely the case and will precipitate the fall of this country.

Well then we’d better come up with alternative to oil, yes? 

 

[Sand]

Well then we’d better come up with alternative to oil, yes? 

Negatory.  The issue isn't the oil it's the reserve currency status (which we're abusing).  

 

[squistion]

When Trump says, "Make America Great Again" ... when is the previous time he is referring to when it was so great?

My guess is that he is referring to the 50's, when women stayed home and raised the kids, jobs had not been sent overseas to increase corporate profits and people of color represented a smaller percentage of the population.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Forget it. @Joe Bryant hasn’t heard it from any of his Republican friends, and I shouldn’t have used the word “constantly”. So it’s not happening. 

That's an odd way to see it. Like @IvanKaramazov and others, I said I didn't see it come up. Then I said I disagree with you I think we're  "told constantly by modern day conservatives that the 50s was a better time than now." Especially not constantly.  

You can martyr it to turn my experience into "So it's not happening" if you like. But that's not what I said. 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Forget it. @Joe Bryant hasn’t heard it from any of his Republican friends, and I shouldn’t have used the word “constantly”. So it’s not happening. 

Hmm, so Republicans won't explicitly say to their less conservative friends that they want to go back to the time of Jim Crow, overwhelming misogyny and deeply closeted LGBTQ+ folks. 

If only there were some other way to gauge how they feel about those things. Perhaps gauging how they feel about some of the things that got us out of those dark days will tell us more. 

 

[whoknew]

That's an odd way to see it. Like @IvanKaramazov and others, I said I didn't see it come up. Then I said I disagree with you I think we're  "told constantly by modern day conservatives that the 50s was a better time than now." Especially not constantly.  

You can martyr it to turn my experience into "So it's not happening" if you like. But that's not what I said. 

Joe - to what time do you think Trump is referring with MAGA?

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

My guess he is referring to the 50's, when women stayed home and raised the kids, jobs had not been sent overseas to increase corporate profits and people of color represented a smaller percentage of the population.

Also Trump doesn't pine for the days of yore solely in his slogan. He consistently, openly wishes for a time when it was acceptable for law enforcement to brutalize criminals and protestors.

It should not be controversial to say that the vast majority of people on the American right are reactionaries who glorify a fictionalized version of the 1950s. They may not say it explicitly, because it's not a good look to say it explicitly, but they say it with most of their other words and actions on a regular basis.

 

[timschochet]

That's an odd way to see it. Like @IvanKaramazov and others, I said I didn't see it come up. Then I said I disagree with you I think we're  "told constantly by modern day conservatives that the 50s was a better time than now." Especially not constantly.  

You can martyr it to turn my experience into "So it's not happening" if you like. But that's not what I said. 

I’m no martyr, Joe. You don’t see it in your experience, fine. We’ll leave it there. But I stand by my original post: we should return to the 1950s is a CONSTANT conservative meme. 

 

[timschochet]

It should not be controversial to say that the vast majority of people on the American right are reactionaries who glorify a fictionalized version of the 1950s. They may not say it explicitly, because it's not a good look to say it explicitly, but they say it with most of their other words and actions on a regular basis.

I didn’t realize it was controversial, or even especially noteworthy, until I was challenged in this thread. I figured it was a given that everybody was aware of. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I’m no martyr, Joe. You don’t see it in your experience, fine. We’ll leave it there. But I stand by my original post: we should return to the 1950s is a CONSTANT conservative meme. 

Thanks for being honest.

What percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

I didn’t realize it was controversial, or even especially noteworthy, until I was challenged in this thread. I figured it was a given that everybody was aware of. 

I'm not surprised to see the pushback.  It's one of those things that's very obvious to most observers, but actually saying it (instead of just acting like it constantly) is another thing.  Because saying it essentially amounts to a confession that you want to roll back civil rights advances. Why would conservatives that stuff out loud when they can just bury our civil rights laws in an avalanche of partisanship, and then complain about being called a racist for it and act like they are the victims?

 

[timschochet]

Thanks for being honest.

What percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

Very low. Almost nil. 
 

And this is where I disagree, slightly, with my friend Toby. I don’t think that conservatives pine for a return to discrimination- rather, they pine for a time where they didn’t have to always THiNK about discrimination, where bigotry and racism wasn’t always on everyone’s minds. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

I'm not surprised to see the pushback.  It's one of those things that's very obvious to most observers, but actually saying it (instead of just acting like it constantly) is another thing.  Because saying it essentially amounts to a confession that you want to roll back civil rights advances. Why would conservatives that stuff out loud when they can just bury our civil rights laws in an avalanche of partisanship, and then complain about being called a racist for it and act like they are the victims?

What percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

 

[timschochet]

And- I know this will make some people here scoff at me- I also pine for a day when we don’t have to talk about racism and bigotry and discrimination as well. I’m sick to death of discussing these issues. I’d much rather see political discussion about other issues: economics, the proper role of government, foreign affairs, etc. 

But wishing discrimination away can’t make it go away. It’s still here, still a major part of this country, and we have to deal with it. 

 

[timschochet]

Thanks for being honest.

BTW- does this mean you believe I was dishonest earlier? 

 

[Joe Bryant]

BTW- does this mean you believe I was dishonest earlier? 

No.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

What percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

I don't really know how to answer that.

What percentage do I think would openly say "I want to go back to the 1955 civil rights law status for black people?"  2% maybe, I dunno. That's akin to an admission of racism/sexism/homophobia. People don't admit to those things unless they're way on the fringe.

What percentage do I think have and will continue to support politicians and other people in power who are making an effort to repeal all the laws intended to address/improve the status of black people since the 1950s?  99%.

Also I'm using "conservative" and "right-leaning" interchangeably here. Obviously a true "conservative" would not want to go backwards.  The word literally means take caution in moving forwards, not move backwards. The modern American right is reactionary, not conservative.  But people use it to mean "the right" so I'm doing that too.

 

[Sand]

Hmm, so Republicans won't explicitly say to their less conservative friends that they want to go back to the time of Jim Crow, overwhelming misogyny and deeply closeted LGBTQ+ folks. 

Honestly I don't see folks thinking about this facet of the 1950s.  It's a blind spot, not a goal.  That doesn't excuse the lack of recognition, but folks will see what they want to see and they see the 1950s as a more moral, simpler time.  It's an idealistic view and not one steeped in hatred.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don't really know how to answer that.

What percentage do I think would openly say "I want to go back to the 1955 civil rights law status for black people?"  2% maybe, I dunno. That's akin to an admission of racism/sexism/homophobia. People don't admit to those things unless they're way on the fringe.

What percentage do I think have and will continue to support politicians and other people in power who are making an effort to repeal all the laws intended to address/improve the status of black people since the 1950s?  99%.

Also I'm using "conservative" and "right-leaning" interchangeably here. Obviously a true "conservative" would not want to go backwards.  The word literally means take caution in moving forwards, not move backwards. The modern American right is reactionary, not conservative.  But people use it to mean "the right" so I'm doing that too.

Good point on private vote.

I'm talking about privately, what's your best guess on the percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Good point on private vote.

I'm talking about privately, what's your best guess on the percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

I don't think they'd admit it to themselves either.  

Let me put it this way: if you had asked them in 2013 whether they support the Voting Rights Act of 1965, you would have gotten almost all positive responses.  After Shelby County in 2013 the number of "nos" would have gone up a little, and probably continued to tick up over time. But it would still be fairly low right up until present day. People like to think of themselves as supporting civil rights and equality in a vacuum. It's harder to be openly bigoted in 2022, that's for sure. 

But if you asked those same people whether they support the GOP's rejection of renewal of the Voting Rights Act in the current congress, you would get a totally different answer. Most people on the right would support it, and the politicians who killed the Act, enthusiastically; in fact they've already been doing that consistently. Even after it was pointed out that the Act was renewed by a 98-0 vote in the Senate in 2006. And they support the widespread voter suppression efforts taking place in state legislatures and local election boards, even though those are the exact things the Voting Rights Act (the one they will tell you they support in a vacuum) seeks to eliminate.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Honestly I don't see folks thinking about this facet of the 1950s.  It's a blind spot, not a goal.  That doesn't excuse the lack of recognition, but folks will see what they want to see and they see the 1950s as a more moral, simpler time.  It's an idealistic view and not one steeped in hatred.

Sure, I agree with that. But the reason they wouldn't openly say "I want to go back to the 1950s!" is because of the connection to those things.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I don't think they'd admit it to themselves either.  

I think most people know what they want.

What's your guess on privately, what percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

And for sure, it's just a guess. 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

I think most people know what they want.

What's your guess on privately, what percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

And for sure, it's just a guess. 

Meaning how many would like to roll back the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act?

I don't really have a feel for how many would want to roll back the 1964 Civil Rights Act in a secret ballot. Somewhere around half, maybe? I think it depends how you described it. If you just said "do you support the 1964 Civil Rights Act" everyone would say yes. If you described what the Act did without telling them the name of the Act and when it was passed, I think the vast majority would say no.

As for the 1965 Voting Rights Act, I don't really have to guess. Conservatives consistently support Shelby County and the Justices who struck down portions of the VRA, the Senators and congressmen who subsequently refused to vote to renew its provisions after it passed the Senate 98-0 in 2006, and all sorts of state voter suppression legislation that likely would have been struck down under the Act.  So I'd say 99%.

 

[squistion]

Good point on private vote.

I'm talking about privately, what's your best guess on the percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

I would say very few favor a return to segregation. I agree with Toby probably 2% at best and I am not even sure of that.

However we have seen complaints regularly in this forum by some regulars (jon_mx comes to mind) about whites being discriminated against and having a second class status due to changes as a result of the Civil Rights legislation of the 60s and thereafter.

 

[Joe Bryant]

Meaning how many would like to roll back the 1964 Civil Rights Act and the 1965 Voting Rights Act?

I don't really have a feel for how many would want to roll back the 1964 Civil Rights Act in a secret ballot. Somewhere around half, maybe? I think it depends how you described it. If you just said "do you support the 1964 Civil Rights Act" everyone would say yes. If you described what the Act did without telling them the name of the Act and when it was passed, I think the vast majority would say no.

As for the 1965 Voting Rights Act, I don't really have to guess. Conservatives consistently support Shelby County and the Justices who struck down portions of the VRA, the Senators and congressmen who subsequently refused to vote to renew its provisions after it passed the Senate 98-0 in 2006, and all sorts of state voter suppression legislation that likely would have been struck down under the Act.  So I'd say 99%.

Really just what it said:  What's your guess on privately, what percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

 

[Grace Under Pressure]

While the "Again" in "Make America Great Again" is somewhat nebulous, it obviously refers to sometime in the past, no?

It seems tempting for the opposition to frame that up as the 1950's, that has actually come up over the past few years, but IIRC the time period may have been referring to the time before Barrack Obama. Not going to pretend to actually know, but it's been an interesting discussion.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I would say very few favor a return to segregation. I agree with Toby probably 2% at best and I am not even sure of that.

However we have seen complaints regularly in this forum by some regulars (jon_mx comes to mind) about whites being discriminated against and having a second class status due to changes as a result of the Civil Rights legislation of the 60s and thereafter.

I"m talking about privately. He said maybe 2% would say this publicly. 

Are you talking about privately the percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

And I'm sorry to keep repeating that phrase - I want to make sure I"m consistently asking it the same way.

 

[timschochet]

Honestly I don't see folks thinking about this facet of the 1950s.  It's a blind spot, not a goal.  That doesn't excuse the lack of recognition, but folks will see what they want to see and they see the 1950s as a more moral, simpler time.  It's an idealistic view and not one steeped in hatred.

I agree with this. It’s similar to my point earlier. 
 

Most conservatives don’t hate. Most conservatives aren’t bigots. They’re just sick of talking about it all the time. 
 

Also, most liberals aren’t socialists. They don’t want to throw out capitalism, they just want to make sure the needy are protected and that everyone is treated with dignity and respect. 
 

That’s why I’m far more optimistic about the future of politics than a lot of folks here. Because most of us are good people who want good things to happen. Though we certainly disagree on some primary issues, the majority of our disagreements, it seems to me, lie in our misunderstanding of the other side’s intentions. 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Really just what it said:  What's your guess on privately, what percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

OK. I think there's two fundamental laws that helped get black people more forward from 1955 to present day. So my answer is based on that. 

If you're asking how many people want to roll back both of them, I guess it would be about the same as my answer on the Civil Rights Act- very few in theory, but about half in practice if you explained what it does. 

I think it's fair to assume that virtually all conservatives want to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people when it comes to voting, considering the conservative movement has undertaken a massive effort to do exactly that.

 

[Joe Bryant]

I think it's fair to assume that virtually all conservatives want to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people when it comes to voting, considering the conservative movement has undertaken a massive effort to do exactly that.

Thanks. That's helpful to know where you're coming from there. 

 

[squistion]

I"m talking about privately. He said maybe 2% would say this publicly. 

Are you talking about privately the percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

And I'm sorry to keep repeating that phrase - I want to make sure I"m consistently asking it the same way.

So are you talking about a return to segregation or other issues? 

 

[Joe Bryant]

So are you talking about a return to segregation or other issues? 

Yes. I'm talking about everything for 1955 with regard to how black people lived.

I keep hearing how Conservatives would love to return to 1955 and I was interested in how many believed Conservatives privately want to return to 1955 with regard to how black people lived and voted and such. 

 

[squistion]

Yes. I'm talking about everything for 1955 with regard to how black people lived.

I keep hearing how Conservatives would love to return to 1955 and I was interested in how many believed Conservatives privately want to return to 1955 with regard to how black people lived and voted and such. 

A return to 1955 encompasses a lot more than just civil rights, I am not too sure you can split that aspect off as there are a bunch of other things that go into the mix that make it a time people are nostalgic for: Times were good, the average person could buy a home, women weren't that big in the work force and most self-identified as housewives and took care of the kids, there was less crime, America had yet to lose a war (Korea was a draw) and was a respected super power to much of the world. 

 

[Joe Bryant]

A return to 1955 encompasses a lot more than just civil rights, I am not too sure you can split that aspect off as there are a bunch of other things that go into the mix that make it a time people are nostalgic for: Times were good, the average person could buy a home, women weren't that big in the work force and most self-identified as housewives and took care of the kids, there was less crime, America had yet to lose a war (Korea was a draw) and was a respected super power to much of the world. 

Sure. Was trying to just be clear. I had no idea this would be so difficult for people. 

Privately, what percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

 

[FairWarning]

My guess is that he is referring to the 50's, when women stayed home and raised the kids, jobs had not been sent overseas to increase corporate profits and people of color represented a smaller percentage of the population.

During that time, there were plenty of Union jobs for blacks in the auto industry.  Detroit was the 5th largest city in the US in that time frame.  

 

[squistion]

Sure. Was trying to just be clear. I had no idea this would be so difficult for people. 

Privately, what percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

So, a return to segregation, Jim Crow laws and things like poll taxes and literacy tests to vote? Privately, probably 10% on nationwide level (more so in some places like the Deep South IMO) although I think many would be opposed for pragmatic reasons more than anything else, as reinstituting segregation is simply just not workable at this point in time.

 

[Joe Bryant]

So, a return to segregation, Jim Crow laws and things like poll taxes and literacy tests to vote? Privately, probably 10% on nationwide level (more so in some places like the Deep South IMO) although I think many would be opposed for pragmatic reasons more than anything else, as reinstituting segregation is simply just not workable at this point in time.

Thank you. 

 

[FairWarning]

Sure. Was trying to just be clear. I had no idea this would be so difficult for people. 

Privately, what percentage of Conservatives do you think would love to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people?

Answering the second part, I would bet very few outside of the south.  

 

[Joe Bryant]

So, a return to segregation, Jim Crow laws and things like poll taxes and literacy tests to vote? Privately, probably 10% on nationwide level (more so in some places like the Deep South IMO) although I think many would be opposed for pragmatic reasons more than anything else, as reinstituting segregation is simply just not workable at this point in time.

Thanks. I can see that. But also thought it was incredibly discouraging / insulting to hear toby say "I think it's fair to assume that virtually all conservatives want to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people when it comes to voting, considering the conservative movement has undertaken a massive effort to do exactly that."

I don't guess we can know for sure but I hope you're way more accurate.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Answering the second part, I would bet very few outside of the south.  

Here's 49 of them,  A decent chunk  are from the south, of course, but not all.

Zero Republicans on the other side, voting to restore an act that passed in 1965 and was reauthorized 98-0 in 2006.

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

Thanks. I can see that. But also thought it was incredibly discouraging / insulting to hear toby say "I think it's fair to assume that virtually all conservatives want to return to the 1955 civil right law status for black people when it comes to voting, considering the conservative movement has undertaken a massive effort to do exactly that."

I don't guess we can know for sure but I hope you're way more accurate.

Frankly I don't see how anyone can think otherwise. Republicans have steadfastly refused to renew the 1965 Voting Rights Act, and their voters have supported that refusal.

Hard to imagine more concrete proof of "wanting to go back to the 1950s" than literally rolling back one of the laws passed shortly thereafter that moved the country forward.

 

[Sand]

So, a return to segregation, Jim Crow laws and things like poll taxes and literacy tests to vote? Privately, probably 10% on nationwide level (more so in some places like the Deep South IMO) although I think many would be opposed for pragmatic reasons more than anything else, as reinstituting segregation is simply just not workable at this point in time.

That's asinine.  Divide by 10, at least.

This hatred projection is off the hook.

 

[FairWarning]

Here's 49 of them,  A decent chunk  are from the south, of course, but not all.

Zero Republicans on the other side, voting to restore an act that passed in 1965 and was reauthorized 98-0 in 2006.

To me the perfect election is to have no news cover it or poll on Election Day.  I tune out all of the news about realigning districts, it’s just a power grab by both sides more than having voters well-bring in mind.

 

[squistion]

That's asinine.  Divide by 10, at least.

This hatred projection is off the hook.

I don't think so. A few years ago in that race in Alabama that Roy Moore was running for and there was a poll I saw (not sure if it was posted in this forum) that something like 18% of Republicans in that state still favored a return to segregation (and that what was reported to pollsters - the actual number may have been higher). And we have seen disenfranchisement of black voters by GOP legislatures in many states in recent years, so a figure of 10% is not that much of a leap or "asisine". 

 

[Toby2ElectricBugaloo]

To me the perfect election is to have no news cover it or poll on Election Day.  I tine out all of the news about realigning districts, it’s just a power grab by both sides more than having voters well-bring in mind.

I'm not talking about gerrymandering specifically (although I'll point out that Dems would happily get rid of it completely if the GOP would agree to it, so "bothsidesing" gerrymandering actually makes it worse because it removes incentive for the primary beneficiaries to change it).

I'm talking about the entire Act, or at least those portions that have been repealed and the GOP refuses to reauthorize.

 

[Sand]

I don't think so. A few years ago in that race in Alabama that Roy Moore was running for and there was a poll I saw (not sure if it was posted in this forum) that something like 18% of Republicans in that state still favored a return to segregation (and that what was reported to pollsters - the actual number may have been higher). And we have seen disenfranchisement of black voters by GOP legislatures in many states in recent years, so a figure of 10% is not that much of a leap or "asisine". 

Yeah - you're gonna have to link this one.  And, as far as disenfranchisement claims, from what we've seen in places like Georgia these claims are farcical and rely on voters to fall for false narratives. 

 

[IvanKaramazov]

That's asinine.  Divide by 10, at least.

This hatred projection is off the hook.

It's easier to hate the other tribe if you assume that they all hold the most extreme views you can plausibly ascribe to them.  (The right does this with lefties too, of course).

 

[FairWarning]

I'm not talking about gerrymandering specifically (although I'll point out that Dems would happily get rid of it completely if the GOP would agree to it, so "bothsidesing" gerrymandering actually makes it worse because it removes incentive for the primary beneficiaries to change it).

I'm talking about the entire Act, or at least those portions that have been repealed and the GOP refuses to reauthorize.

I’m up for any ideas that makes it fair for voters and isn’t influenced by the media. 

 

[FairWarning]

I don't think so. A few years ago in that race in Alabama that Roy Moore was running for and there was a poll I saw (not sure if it was posted in this forum) that something like 18% of Republicans in that state still favored a return to segregation (and that what was reported to pollsters - the actual number may have been higher). And we have seen disenfranchisement of black voters by GOP legislatures in many states in recent years, so a figure of 10% is not that much of a leap or "asisine". 

It’s Alabama.  

 

[squistion]

Yeah - you're gonna have to link this one.  And, as far as disenfranchisement claims, from what we've seen in places like Georgia these claims are farcical and rely on voters to fall for false narratives. 

I can't remember where I read it or which polling organization it was, but I remember seeing it and was shocked at the time that sentiment still existed to that extent anywhere in the country. And no, what has been going on in Georgia and other states is not farcical or a false narrative.