cstu
Footballguy
If you think that Cribbs is an outstanding player while Evans is not then there's no point in arguing the point with you.
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Outstanding players stuck in impossible situations (1 Viewer)
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Hoot&HoLLer
Footballguy
Another buc was Hugh Green.
Lake Titicaca
Footballguy
You can add Bobby Mitchell to that too. They were about the only good things going for those 60's 'Skins teams.
Jason Wood
Zoo York
There are loads of players who went to teams with little to no prior success and then had some success, and they don't get lumped into the same category of Barry. I will say it again, Barry Sanders is a beast, and one of the all-time greats. But he was also ALWAYS like the RB version of the backup QB. People LOVED to talk about "imagine if Barry was in Dallas and Emmitt was in Detroit" and that always bugged the hell out of me. But ultimately this is all a subjective discussion and no one is wrong for viewing Barry or any other player in whatever light they want to.When he was drafted, the Lions had NEVER EVER won a playoff game in the NFL since Super Bowl 1. They won 1 game in the playoffs with him as they beat the Cowboys at home in 1991 before losing their next game to the Redskins. They have never won a playoff game since. So 1 playoff game victory since the 1960's and it's 2010.I don't think you can blame people for writing down the name of Barry Sanders when thinking about great players in impossible situations when you look at it from that perspective. In fact, he retired early because he had just had enough. The ridiculous situation he was in actually forced one of the best Rb's in history to call it quits. He definately had more left in the tank when he retired, he just didn't want to play anywhere else but couldn't stomach how that organization was being run.The Barry Sanders love fest apparently does extend into the next Millennium. Look, the guy was BRILLIANT. And he didn't have a fantastic organization around him. But he doesn't qualify for this kind of discussion IMHO. The Lions had plenty of other talent around him. Herman Moore, Lomas Brown, Mel Gray, Chris Spielman, Jerry Ball, Robert Porcher and Kevin Glover all made multiple Pro Bowls (and most also had All Pros) playing with Barry. Sanders was never on a great team necessarily but he wasn't stuck in a train wreck either.
Godsbrother
Footballguy
Louis Lipps was as talented a reciever as any Steelers reciver before or since but had stiffs like Mark Malone, David Woodley, Bubby Brister and Todd Blackledge throwing him the rock. Even still he made the Pro Bowl twice and had 900+ yards three times and was a great return man.
Had he played for the Steelers in 70s or 00s he probably would have been in the HoF.
Had he played for the Steelers in 70s or 00s he probably would have been in the HoF.
Horrorshow
Footballguy
He was. See post #15.
Hooper31
Footballguy
Easley played with some great teams in the mid 80s. I wouldn't call his team an impossible situation at all. in 1984 Seattle was a Vegas favorite to be Super Bowl bound. Even after they lost young star RB Curt Warner in game one they still went 12-4 on the passing of Dave Krieg and a marvelous swarming defense. Seattle's regular season record from 1981 to 1987 was 58-46.I agree that Kennedy was a special talent playing on horrible teams in the 90s.
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H.K.
Footballguy
The Barry Sanders love fest apparently does extend into the next Millennium. Look, the guy was BRILLIANT. And he didn't have a fantastic organization around him. But he doesn't qualify for this kind of discussion IMHO. The Lions had plenty of other talent around him. Herman Moore, Lomas Brown, Mel Gray, Chris Spielman, Jerry Ball, Robert Porcher and Kevin Glover all made multiple Pro Bowls (and most also had All Pros) playing with Barry. Sanders was never on a great team necessarily but he wasn't stuck in a train wreck either.
That is precisely why Barry Sanders is the exact opposite of the intended purpose of this thread. If he did anything good, it was 100% Barry...but if anything went wrong, it was 100% on his teammates. All the credit, none of the blame. Didn't matter how many times he lost yardage by his choice, it was never his fault. Virtually nobody else gets that kind of treatment. The truth is, for someone like him, he was in a perfect situation.
FUBAR
Footballguy
While true, I'm not sure I'd put him in the impossible situation category. The man was absolutely loved in the KC area and had a pretty good QB, OL and RB to help with his HOF career. If you look at the help on his side of ball, I'm not sure he could have had it much better. Obviously this is a team game and Tony seems like a guy who would like to win a Super Bowl, but overall his team was pretty good. Up until his last two years there the Chiefs were well over .500 and a contender every year.
King of the Wolfies
Footballguy
barry sanders was the 1st to pop into my mind. i think the only reason thatthe lions as a team had any success was that he carried them. seemed like every game of his that i watched, he was constantly being hit in the backfield.
if i'm not mistaken, didnt evans sign an extension paying him $9 million a year until 2012, or something like that? i think the bills' brass knows what they have in him and dont want him to get away so jake locker has someone to throw to next year, and i think he belongs on this list.
When I saw the thread, I didn't realize it was about historical players, so I immediately thought "wow, someone made a thread about Lee Evans and Steven Jackson". Personally, I think Evans is a better receiver than Reggie Wayne and if you put him in Indy, he'd be putting up 1300 yards and a dozen scores every year.
The awfulness of the '90s Lions is GREATLY exaggerated. They were a garden-variety mediocre team, not some terrible squad like everyone pretends. They were to the '90s what the Panthers were to the '00s- some terrible years, some very good years, but mostly just consistently middle-of-the-pack.It's especially worth pointing out that the Lions went 8-8 and 9-7 in the two seasons after Sanders retired. Hardly what you would expect from an "impossible situation" that was kept afloat entirely by a transcendent RB. The Saints didn't go 8-8 and 9-7 the two years after Archie Manning left. The Bucs didn't go 8-8 and 9-7 the two years after Lee Roy Selmon left. The St. Louis Rams aren't going to go 8-8 and 9-7 over the next two years if Steven Jackson retires.
That's awfully arbitrary criteria, isn't it? Scott Mitchell had a season where he passed for 4300 yards with 32 TDs vs. 11 INTs. If he made the pro bowl that year, would Sanders no longer have been in an "impossible" situation?
Delhomme's been competent for his entire Panthers career up until last year. In the 6 seasons from '03 to '08, Delhomme had 7.2-7.9 YPA 5 times (exception- 6.5 ypa in '06), had 200-216 yards per game 5 times (exception- 243 ypg in '04), and had a QB rating from 81-88 5 times (exception- 112 in '07). Prior to 2009, he was remarkably consistent from year to year, and was essentially across-the-board better than guys like Eli Manning. He wasn't a world-beater, but he was a competent NFL QB. Then last year he just imploded.
SoopaCee
Footballguy
whats Megatron's excuse then?....oh wait, he puts up good numbers on a crappy team with crappy qb'sAJ can be said too.....only last year he had a good qb
Adebisi
Footballguy
Spike
Footballguy
I must have missed the memo... how is Calvin's production-to-date any better than Evans'? They've essentially posted identical careers. Both guys had one gigantic year (Calvin was WR3, Evans was WR7). Outside of his big year, Calvin has yet to top either 1,000 yards or 5 TDs. Is his 756/4 rookie year really more impressive than Evans' 843/9 rookie year? Was Calvin's 984/5 last year really so much greater than Evans' 1017/3 in '08, or Evans' 743/7 in '05, or Evans' 849/5 in '07? Calvin and Evans have had the exact same career arc to date, yet everyone's quick to lay the blame for Calvin's failure to produce on his situation, while Evans is quickly just labeled a fluke and a mediocre talent.Hell, for as bad as Calvin's situation is, at least his team throws the ball sometimes. Detroit was 4th in the league in passing attempts Calvin's rookie year (when he put up 756/4). Detroit was 6th in the league in passing attempts last year (when he put up 984/5). Buffalo's offense has ranked 31st, 24th, 30th, 31st, 26th, and 27th in pass attempts in Evans' 6 seasons in the league.Evans has produced as well as Calvin despite being in an EVEN MORE IMPOSSIBLE situation. As I said, put Evans in Indy and you're looking at a 1300/12 a year receiver.
While personally I feel Calvin is a little bit overhyped, he has only played 3 seasons while Evans has played 6 so many give Calvin a pass thinking his best years are ahead of him.SSOG said:
The answer is YES, because Calvin did it in 14 games and one of those games he only got one target and one catch for 2 yards before being injured so he put up the vast majority of his stats in 13 games. Prorate out his season to 16 games and he would have had over 1,200 yards. In Calvin's rookie season he was also injured and missed games which you did not take into account. Contrast this with Evans who has played 16 every year and still only posted mediocre to bad stats 5 of those 6 years. Evans gets a point for staying healthy, but that also means his per game averages are poor. While I agree Buffalo's woeful offense is certainly holding Evans back, that didn't stop a number of other stud WR's from putting up solid numbers in terrible situations (Fitz, Boldin, AJ for starters.)In Calvin's big season, he was consistently good as well. In Evans one big season he scored 20% of his stats for the year in a single game with the majority of it coming on 2 huge 83 yard TD's in a single quarter of play. It's pretty easy to dismiss that as a fluke, especially since it's been 3 years and he hasn't really done anything of note since then.
I think I could say the same for at least 10~15 other WR's in the league. I think Evans is a solid WR and would certainly do a lot better with a change of scenary but I don't see Evans as that much different and far from outclassing a lot of other WR's in the league.
I can understand someone giving Calvin a pass (I might not agree with it, but I understand the logic behind it), but this wasn't a case of someone giving Calvin a pass. This was a case of someone saying that Calvin was stuck in a terrible situation but he still managed to produce, so what was Lee Evans' excuse? I was simply pointing out that if Calvin doesn't need an excuse, then neither does Evans, who has produced just as well despite being in an EVEN WORSE situation.
Well, let's look at it from another perspective: through 13 games in 2009, Detroit had 487 passing attempts and Calvin had 984/5. Through 16 games in 2008, Buffalo had 479 passing attempts and Evans had 1017/3. Evans in '08 had a 62% catch rate and averaged 10.05 yards per target. Calvin on '09 had a 49% catch rate and averaged 7.25 yards per target. I'll ask again... was Calvin's season really so much better than Evans'?
In Calvin's big season, he caught 52% of his targets and averaged 8.87 yards per target. In Evans' big season, he caught 60% of his targets and averaged 9.43 yards per target. Who was more consistent, again?
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
Barry's poor teammates are not greatly exaggerated.In the 10 years before Barry got there the Lions were in the top 1/2 in the league in scoring only 2 times once being in the top 10. They made the playoffs twice (but one of those was with a 4-5 losing strike season). They had only 2 winning seasons and no double digit winning seasons.In Barry's 10 years they were in the top 1/2 in the league in scoring 5 times (all of those being in the top 10). Now, during those seasons there were 3 different leading receivers and 4 different leading QBs - the only thing consistent about those offenses was Barry. They make the playoffs 5 out of the 10 years and have 5 winning seasons (3 with 10+ wins - with 4 different QBs and 2 different WRs).In the 10 years after Barry, the Lions were top 1/2 of the league in scoring only twice and never in the top 10. They have only 1 winning season and 1 playoff appearance (with an 8-8 record).The year before Barry got to the Lions they were last in rushing TDs, last in YPC, second to last in yards and 3rd to last in carries. As a rookie the Lions jump from worst to first in rushing TDs, worst to first in YPC, and into the top 10 in yards (while still being 20th in the league in carries). Barry *made* those Lion teams respectable on offense. It wasn't Gagliano, Peete, Kramer, Krieg, Mitchell, or Batch (the carousel of QBs for the Lions). Mitchell has 1 good season - that doesn't mean that Barry had a decade of solid teammates.When I saw the thread, I didn't realize it was about historical players, so I immediately thought "wow, someone made a thread about Lee Evans and Steven Jackson". Personally, I think Evans is a better receiver than Reggie Wayne and if you put him in Indy, he'd be putting up 1300 yards and a dozen scores every year.
The awfulness of the '90s Lions is GREATLY exaggerated. They were a garden-variety mediocre team, not some terrible squad like everyone pretends. They were to the '90s what the Panthers were to the '00s- some terrible years, some very good years, but mostly just consistently middle-of-the-pack.It's especially worth pointing out that the Lions went 8-8 and 9-7 in the two seasons after Sanders retired. Hardly what you would expect from an "impossible situation" that was kept afloat entirely by a transcendent RB. The Saints didn't go 8-8 and 9-7 the two years after Archie Manning left. The Bucs didn't go 8-8 and 9-7 the two years after Lee Roy Selmon left. The St. Louis Rams aren't going to go 8-8 and 9-7 over the next two years if Steven Jackson retires.
That's awfully arbitrary criteria, isn't it? Scott Mitchell had a season where he passed for 4300 yards with 32 TDs vs. 11 INTs. If he made the pro bowl that year, would Sanders no longer have been in an "impossible" situation?Delhomme's been competent for his entire Panthers career up until last year. In the 6 seasons from '03 to '08, Delhomme had 7.2-7.9 YPA 5 times (exception- 6.5 ypa in '06), had 200-216 yards per game 5 times (exception- 243 ypg in '04), and had a QB rating from 81-88 5 times (exception- 112 in '07). Prior to 2009, he was remarkably consistent from year to year, and was essentially across-the-board better than guys like Eli Manning. He wasn't a world-beater, but he was a competent NFL QB. Then last year he just imploded.
Again, Barry retired and the Lions promptly went 8-8 and 9-7. Maybe at the beginning of his career they were terrible, but by the end of his tenure the Lions were essentially a .500 squad WITHOUT BARRY. If you listened to everyone going on about how terrible his supporting cast was, you'd expect the Lions to go winless for 3 years once Barry left.
sn0mm1s
Footballguy
After Archie Manning left the Saints they had their 2nd best winning percentage in team history. The second year after Manning they tied their best winning percentage *ever*. So using your logic how was Manning in an impossible situation? As soon as he left the team had 2 of its top 3 seasons in its history.
First off, the second best winning percentage in team history? Tied their best winning percentage ever? That seems like an awfully funny way of saying they went 4-5 and 8-8. I don't know why you chose to phrase it that way, but I think you're trying to be far too clever when it's easy enough to just give actual team records.Second off, please quote where I said that Archie Manning was in an impossible situation? Why would I have to use my logic to defend a statement that I never made in the first place? I'm open to the possibility that history has overrated the impossibility of Manning's situation as much as it's overrated the impossibility of Sanders'.Third off, it's actually easy to defend Archie's situation as more impossible than Barry's. For starters, there's the fact that his teams were 32 games under .500 while Sanders' teams were 2 games under .500. The Manning Saints were one of the most woeful franchises in the league. The Sanders Lions were essentially a .500 squad (a trend that continued for two seasons after Sanders' abrupt retirement). After that, I could point out that the improvement in the Saints' record after Archie left coincided with a massive improvement in the defense (they went from 28th and 11th in his last two seasons to 5th and 2nd the two seasons after he left), a development that Archie certainly didn't have much to do with. For what it's worth, the Lions were 14th and 15th in defense in Sanders' last two years... and 18th and 14th the two years following.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
Not sure where the sarcasm is. TO would definitely say exactly that, and he would be completely serious.T.O. I'm sure he'd tell you that if only he had half decent talent around him, he'd have 4 Superbowl rings.
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
Collective rationalization for wasted fantasy draft picks. I made them myself with this guy, but I realize it was me buying into the hype.Very
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
I'd also like to point out the Lee Roy Selmon's situation wasn't entirely impossible. He was instrumental in helping the Buccaneers win their division and reach the NFC championship game, where they lost 9-0. They were pathetic for many years while he was there, but they had some success and reached the playoffs a few times, too.
Steven Jackson reached the playoffs as a rookie, and has been doomed ever since. I kind of feel bad for him...but he signed the extension. And it's hard to feel badly for Moss, because history indicates he wasn't putting forth his best effort in Oakland. The Raiders were paying for a guy who wasn't really trying his best. They were in an impossible situation, too.
Steven Jackson reached the playoffs as a rookie, and has been doomed ever since. I kind of feel bad for him...but he signed the extension. And it's hard to feel badly for Moss, because history indicates he wasn't putting forth his best effort in Oakland. The Raiders were paying for a guy who wasn't really trying his best. They were in an impossible situation, too.
Raiderfan32904
Footballguy
I always felt that Walter Payton deserves mention as working in an impossible situation. He only had success as a team the final 3 years of his brilliant 13 year career. If Barry had somehow stayed and the Lions then made the Superbowl, his career would be a mirror image of Sweetness.
Lord Lucan
Footballguy
Has Nnamdi Asomugha only been omitted from this discussion because nobody can spell his name? He's probably had more impact on the opposition game plan than any other player in the last 5 years despite being stuck on one of the worst teams in the NFL.
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FUBAR
Footballguy
Very
pretty much the exact opposite as SSOG already pointed out. The other thing though is players with Evans's talent need competent QBs but would be complete studs with one while big physical WRs like Calvin, AJ, Fitz and Boldin are the types that are more likely to still do well without good QBs. Maybe that means Evans isn't an elite talent, but I disagree with that, it's just a different type of talent. Welker didn't excel until he was with the Patriots. DJax wouldn't be near the QB without McNabb - watch, if Kolb struggles, DJax will be a huge disappointment. It's a general statement and I'm sure some will dispute it, but by and large, smaller quick WRs are more reliant on competent QB play and timing than the big physical types.
Hang 10
Footballguy
As Lions fans now refer to the 90's as the "glory years".
CataclysmicThunder
Footballguy
I'm surprised that no one has mentioned Corey Dillon with the Bengals.
Carolina Hustler
Footballguy
Evans was the first guy who came to mind for me as well. His talent has been completely wasted
Neil Beaufort Zod
Footballguy
And why not? I think the Buccaneers defeated them in the PLAYOFFS in 1997. Hey, the Lions made the playoffs. That's something.
Instinctive
Footballguy
Here's another vote for Nnamdi. He's an absolute monster, but a lot of people don't even know because Oakland sucks so bad.
