Overreact Much? (1 Viewer)

[DoubleG]

It almost surprises me that people are glossing over Ogletree's performance and are spending more time making dismissive remarks than actually thinking this through.

Seems like just a year ago, we were having the same conversations about this no-name victor Cruz guy that "had been with the Giants forever and hadn't done much", who was "clearly behind the top two WRs and TE for targets", who "couldn't possible step in and replicate what Steve smith had done". Yet, the pattern was established. We had seen it before on the giants and we have seen it before with the Cowboys and people still look the other way.

Cruz and Ogletree is a horrible comparison. First off, Og has been in the league a year longer than Cruz had. Cruz also didn't have a single reception and only played in 3 games is 2010. By 2010, Og had played in 17 games and had 10 receptions. The point being, Cruz truly "came out of nowhere" as an undrafted FA. Ogletree is not "out of nowhere" nor is nearly as highly thought of. Secondly, the Giants WR/TE were not coming off injuries and missing preseason games the way Witten/Austin have. Third, the idea that Cruz has "established a pattern" is ridiculous. You're trying to use an outlier to prove a norm - that's backwards. Cruz was the exception - just because everyone doesn't see Og to be the same exception, does not make them wrong or shortsighted.For every Cruz, there are plenty of Danario Alexanders, Patrick Craytons and Jericho Cotcherys - guys that blow up one week, then disappear back to what is/will be their normal mediocre contributions.

 

[ponchsox]

It almost surprises me that people are glossing over Ogletree's performance and are spending more time making dismissive remarks than actually thinking this through.

Seems like just a year ago, we were having the same conversations about this no-name victor Cruz guy that "had been with the Giants forever and hadn't done much", who was "clearly behind the top two WRs and TE for targets", who "couldn't possible step in and replicate what Steve smith had done". Yet, the pattern was established. We had seen it before on the giants and we have seen it before with the Cowboys and people still look the other way.

Cruz and Ogletree is a horrible comparison. First off, Og has been in the league a year longer than Cruz had. Cruz also didn't have a single reception and only played in 3 games is 2010. By 2010, Og had played in 17 games and had 10 receptions. Secondly, the Giants WR/TE were not coming off injuries and missing preseason games the way Witten/Austin have. Third, the idea that Cruz has "established a pattern" is ridiculous. You're trying to use an outlier to prove a norm - that's backwards. Cruz was the exception - just because everyone doesn't see Og to be the same exception, does not make them wrong or shortsighted.For every Cruz, there are plenty of Danario Alexanders, Patrick Craytons and Jericho Cotcherys - guys that blow up one week, then disappear back to what is/will be their normal mediocre contributions.

Cotchery was actually very good in 2006. Since then, not so good.

 

[mdlane]

Alright, it's already started - drastic over-reaction to one game. One single game.

There are only 13 games in the season, and every year there are a handful of waiver wire guys that come out of nowhere and dominate. You have to pay to play, or watch from the sidelines and cling to your preseason rankings.

WHAT HAPPENED #2 Ogletree was the #1 receiving option for the Cowboys - and was studly in the process.

WHAT WE THINK IT MEANS Ogletree is the WW stud everone has been waiting for. The M. Colston of 2012. He will save you WR group. He will become the #1 in Dallas.

WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS Ummm...no. It actually means three things. First, and most importantly, the Giants secondary is bad. By bad, I mean awful...putrid...atrocious. Second, before we annoint Ogle's the next...whatever, let's remember that Austin missed visrtually all of preseason and only gotten in a handful of practices. Witten also missed several preseason games due to his spleen injury. So 2 of Dallas' primary receiving options were not near 100% - nor had they gottne much work in in preseason. Third, Og's has been with the Cowboys for a while - and not shown to be this much a factor, either in terms of production or involvement.

What it really means, is that Ogletree will be a solid WR3 with WR2 upside when he sees a favorable matchup (like the Giants next time). He will likely regress to being the 3rd or 4th option in the passing game when Austin & Witten get healthy. While he might be a solid play for the next week or two, while the rest of the WR's heal, keep in mind, teams are going to see what he did Wednesday night, and not let him run free - the way the Giants did.

A "solid WR3 with WR2 upside" is a HUGE stock market upgrade over what Ogletree was before this game (WR5? WR6?). A solid WR3 with WR2 upside is "better than Blackmon" territory - if that's what you believe. It places him firmly in the top 30 WRs this year.

What that means is even if we take your post at face value, your own admissions betray that "one single game" has made a massive impact on expectations for Ogletree this year.

No one but you and "Ministerial of Pain" is saying that people think Ogletree is a WR1 now. That's what you call a "strawman" argument. What people are saying is that Ogletree now has a good potential for legitimate fantasy value as a WR3 with upside. Even you apparently admit that. If he does it again next week, it starts snowballing.

 

[DoubleG]

Alright, it's already started - drastic over-reaction to one game. One single game.

There are only 13 games in the season, and every year there are a handful of waiver wire guys that come out of nowhere and dominate. You have to pay to play, or watch from the sidelines and cling to your preseason rankings.

WHAT HAPPENED #2 Ogletree was the #1 receiving option for the Cowboys - and was studly in the process.

WHAT WE THINK IT MEANS Ogletree is the WW stud everone has been waiting for. The M. Colston of 2012. He will save you WR group. He will become the #1 in Dallas.

WHAT IT ACTUALLY MEANS Ummm...no. It actually means three things. First, and most importantly, the Giants secondary is bad. By bad, I mean awful...putrid...atrocious. Second, before we annoint Ogle's the next...whatever, let's remember that Austin missed visrtually all of preseason and only gotten in a handful of practices. Witten also missed several preseason games due to his spleen injury. So 2 of Dallas' primary receiving options were not near 100% - nor had they gottne much work in in preseason. Third, Og's has been with the Cowboys for a while - and not shown to be this much a factor, either in terms of production or involvement.

What it really means, is that Ogletree will be a solid WR3 with WR2 upside when he sees a favorable matchup (like the Giants next time). He will likely regress to being the 3rd or 4th option in the passing game when Austin & Witten get healthy. While he might be a solid play for the next week or two, while the rest of the WR's heal, keep in mind, teams are going to see what he did Wednesday night, and not let him run free - the way the Giants did.

A "solid WR3 with WR2 upside" is a HUGE stock market upgrade over what Ogletree was before this game (WR5? WR6?). A solid WR3 with WR2 upside is "better than Blackmon" territory - if that's what you believe. It places him firmly in the top 30 WRs this year.

What that means is even if we take your post at face value, your own admissions betray that "one single game" has made a massive impact on expectations for Ogletree this year.

No one but you and "Ministerial of Pain" is saying that people think Ogletree is a WR1 now. That's what you call a "strawman" argument. What people are saying is that Ogletree now has a good potential for legitimate fantasy value as a WR3 with upside. Even you apparently admit that. If he does it again next week, it starts snowballing.

By "We" I mean what some people who are over-reacting think it means. There is no doubt he Og has value (at least, value higher than it was a day ago). The question is, is that value going to be too high given what should be realistic expectations for his production? I think it will be. Watch the "Who will you cut/trade to get Ogeltree" threads. There will be some ridiculously good players being cut/traded for what will likely be a barely startable WR most of the time.The "Solid WR3" comments were until Austin and Witten get back to 100% - I realize that may not be clear in the way the post is worded. After week 3-4, I see him disappearing again. So no, it's not a "HUGE" upgrade - it's an over-reaction and the upgrade is extremly temporary.

 

[Ariakis]

Pretty sure the WR3 with WR2 upside meant "on Dallas" and not "in fantasy". For FFL I'd say he's worth a flier add for sure in case he DOES become a WR3 with WR2 upside IF things break right. In deep leagues I'll find someone to cut for him. In shallow leagues I probably won't because true fantasy WR3's are still out there anyway.

Regarding his career ... for a backup WR (4th string or lower) you need to go by how many snaps/targets not how many games/catches to judge his opportunity. Cruz didn't get his opportunity until Hixon got hurt much as Miles didn't get his until Roy Williams got hurt a few years ago.

Go back to my last post ... the O-Train is NOT a fantasy (or real life) stud WR ... but he DOES appear to be a solid route runner who isn't afraid to go over the middle and shows solid hands and decent speed and twitch. That means Romo trusts him which means he WILL have big games because he will be on the field a lot more than he did at any time previous in his career ... whenever Dez/Miles need a breather (or all too commonly get injured) or in 3 WR sets.

Also note that as a Cowboys fan I recall most of his targets in previous seasons were dump-off and WR screens rather than downfield shots.

I'm also happy that he took a big hit and didn't get hurt on one of his receptions.

If we can figure out which defenses will game plan as the Giants did we can predict his chances for big games. Romo will target Dez and Miles when possible otherwise I'd think.

 

[Jed]

The only takeaways I had from last night's game-Until healthy, exploit the Giants secondary

My main takeaway is just to question how bad/good the Giants' D is. Can the homers chime in on this - to what degree was last night's game representative of what you expect from the Giants' D this year?

If Prince doesn't come back soon and play well they are in serious trouble. Even if he does come back they have no depth if he or Webster gets hurt. Webster is better than he showed last night, and if Price plays like he's capable, all the sudden they are a very sold defensive unit. Big "if" though.

 

[Concept Coop]

Murray had an okay day. I'll preface it by saying I'm not and never was a Murray supporter, but this is clearly a case of the stats not matching what was seen. Murray had 2 good runs, one a long gainer where he broke (more like the Giants missed) tackling him in the backfied twice. Another was when he squeezed through a hole that didn't look to be there. Other than that, I think the Giants held him pretty much in check. That said, I am reconsidering Murray and willing to admit that perhaps I was a little too down on Murray. I still don't think he'll end up in the top 12 and won't be worth the 1st or 2nd round pick that it cost to get him.

He had a great day. His offensive line is not very good at moving the pile. He looked really good.

We can disagree. I don't think it was great. To me, the stats look a lot better than he actually did. My biggest concern with Murray is that I don't think he can create on his own very much and thus is subject to what his line does get for him. On the two runs I mentioned, he eased some of this concern for me, but not nearly all of it. The long run was more of a fluke than anything (no, i'm not suggesting that you take it away), but he did manage to keep his feet and find a hole, so I'm giving him credit where it's due. That said, I'm still not buying and if I did own him, I'd be selling.

Sounds like the anti-Foster talk a couple years ago. Only this time, nobody can blame the scheme.

 

[geoff8695]

Well I'm not going to tell you Murray will stay healthy, play all 16 games, lead the league in rushing, or make any other predictions for that matter...

However, I can tell you that in at least half of the games he's started thus far in his NFL career that he's rushed for over 100yds.

Does that make him a sell high candidate or something?

 

[JamesTheScot]

Good topic.Murray had an okay day. I'll preface it by saying I'm not and never was a Murray supporter, but this is clearly a case of the stats not matching what was seen. Murray had 2 good runs, one a long gainer where he broke (more like the Giants missed) tackling him in the backfied twice. Another was when he squeezed through a hole that didn't look to be there. Other than that, I think the Giants held him pretty much in check. That said, I am reconsidering Murray and willing to admit that perhaps I was a little too down on Murray. I still don't think he'll end up in the top 12 and won't be worth the 1st or 2nd round pick that it cost to get him. Any one that thinks Ogletree is going to be a season savior is probably kidding themselves. Two of the top 3 options for Romo were battling or just coming back from injuries. And the Giants were down to their 5th CB having to play a large portion of the game. This is just a case of Ogletree taking advantage of a hugely favorable matchup. It won't happen often, and he'll drop back down to end your bench or waiver wire fodder as Witten and Austin regain their health.That was about the worse thing that could have happened to Wilson. Especially this early. He'll be worked back in, but I take this as Coughlin making a point to Wilson to show what will happen if he continues his fumbling ways. It looked like they planned to get Wilson a good amount of touches and I fully expect them to go back to that plan next week.

I too will admit I may have been too down on Murray. Agree with your assessment, but I loved the way he bowled through people. No hesitation. He can go up the middle or to the outside. Don't necessarily love his vision, but it's hard to imagine him not breaking a few every game.My only point on Ogletree - won't he be going against the 4th or 5th best DB option EVERY week? With Bryant/Austin/Witten to worry about, Ogletree should have a favorable matchup every week. Isn't that how Robinson scored 11 TD's? And his receptions weren't fluky. He was getting separation.

The funny thing was I didn't see the speed I expected, but I saw some strong, violent running and good balance. The guy bounced off contact and did a great job lowering his pads into contact.Look, the Dallas o-line is not that good. If Murray can turn something into nothing behind that line, he deserves some credit. Is anyone lobbying to take out Bradshaw's big run and readjust his "real" stat line for the night? Of course not, because he's a sneaky play darling. For some reason that means he gets to count his while Murray doesn't, I guess.

 

[DoubleG]

Well I'm not going to tell you Murray will stay healthy, play all 16 games, lead the league in rushing, or make any other predictions for that matter...However, I can tell you that in at least half of the games he's started thus far in his NFL career that he's rushed for over 100yds. Does that make him a sell high candidate or something?

In one league I'm thinking of - especially when guys are trotting out David Wilson or Toby Gearhart (sp?) as starters. But we should take this to the AC...

 

[JamesTheScot]

* Dallas OL is currently one of the worst in the league. They MIGHT gel - they as a group have yet to play more than a few plays intact ... ever. This will negatively impact the offense and make Romo LOOK foolish at times and Murray ineffective at times and the WR's ineffective at times (no time to develop routes) but I do expect improvement.* Cowboys didn't have Ratliff to add to the rotation at NT and Jenkins at CB. Wow. I wouldn't be shocked if opposing WR's don't go off much all season as long as they stay healthy plus Ware rushing the passer.* Murray ran hard and looks every bit the RB1 most thought. Would have liked more targets and screen plays. The OL will be a challenge all season though.* Felix looks DONE. I wouldn't be shocked if they don't promote their PS guy and make Tanner their #2. This is important as Murray runs to contact perhaps too much.* The Dallas WR's may have abused a weaker DB group but they played physical and were willing to go into traffic. The OTrain may be hard to start in fantasy but now teams can't roll coverage to Austin/Bryant which was the fear in being so top-heavy. I wouldn't be shocked if Harris has a big game soon too ... this is Romo more than Ogletree.* Ogletree ran some great routes to get that open and caught what was thrown. He impressed. But as I said I think this does more for the TEAM than his own fantasy value down the road.* Take away Bradshaw's 33 yard run and what do HIS numbers look like? Now consider most of his production came with the Cowboys playing a deep cover clock killing defense. Until then he did nothing. They HAVE to get Wilson involved I'd think.

Murray also made a heads-up run for a first that got called back in that last drive. It was his slide. I loved that play because what Murray shows is that he's a heady, smart player. And there are going to be times in games where that awareness is going to pay fantasy dividends even though the slide (had it counted) would have meant he scored you less points than he could have. I'm not saying he the next E.Smith. But he seems to have a drive and an awareness about him when he's on the field that reminds me of Emmit and that is totally lacking in someone like Felix Jones.Garrett talked in the preseason about how veteran Murray looked and acted. That was on display last night.

 

[geoff8695]

Well I'm not going to tell you Murray will stay healthy, play all 16 games, lead the league in rushing, or make any other predictions for that matter...However, I can tell you that in at least half of the games he's started thus far in his NFL career that he's rushed for over 100yds. Does that make him a sell high candidate or something?

In one league I'm thinking of - especially when guys are trotting out David Wilson or Toby Gearhart (sp?) as starters. But we should take this to the AC...

Nah, that's OK. I believe I can keep a roster spot open for a young RB like Murray on my squad. Especially in a league where other owners are forced to rely on iffy starting options at RB. Helps Ensure that a team stocked to the gills at RB can maintain its competitive advantage IMO.

 

[JamesTheScot]

Giant fan:

Ogletree burned Webster on the TD as Webster was caught looking into the backfield. Ogletree did his job and won the slant battles against the 5th CB, but he won them and caught the ball...he did better than Cruz in that department. Long term Ogletree is probably a 3-4 WR and Austin is still a better option.

Murray has very good vision and very good anticipation as a runner. I hate the Cowboys and their OL is not a good unit, but Murray is a very good RB. If he were on Houston, people would be thinking he is absolutely elite.

Wilson will get back in the game and do well as the Giants need him. The fumbling can't continue, but he will play and eventually take over for Bradshaw who runs really hard, but he is a guy who goes the wrong way frequently.

It was the 1st game of the year, refs stunk, both teams were really sloppy...it was week 1, don't overreact.

Thank you.After watching Murray last night, I saw a couple of things confirmed: 1) He is a bad man 2) He seeks contact and will increase his chances of injury unless he decides to avoid contact every once in a while.

The idea that he had a couple of good runs seems silly to me. In fact, I think his worst play was also on his best play - if he reads the Dez block, that 48 yarder turns into a TD.

1) It seems odd to discount a 48 yard run. There are not that many starting backs capable of beating three layers of an NFL defense for almost 50 yards.

2) Again on that run, you can't discount the fact that before he went around his olineman, he crashed into Kiwanuka and knocked him down

3) There were other notable runs: 9-yarder during the first TD drive, 9 yard rush and 9 yard pass in the second one

4) Last TD drive - where they need to kill time: 5 yards, 5 yards, 9 yards, 15 yards

5) Last drive of the game, when everyone knew what time it was: 1, 7, and then holding call.

Tough to say that was only a couple of good runs.

The interior line of Dallas is terrible and he runs like he is trying to get worker's comp, but I saw a pretty unique combination of size and speed last night.

I hear what you are saying. But I kept waiting for him to turn on that long speed we hear about and just blow down the sideline.I will say this, though. He also had that other good run capped by Bryant. That one looked like he was trying to dip back behind Bryant to pick off the DB but he ended up running into Bryant. That one looked like Bryant was loafing a bit rather than charging hard for the DB. So I wonder if it's possible that Bryant is sort of getting in the way out there when blocking down field.

 

[SYMPHONY X]

The only thing that can hold back Murray's potential is Garrett...and maybe false start/holding penalties.At least they showed some intent to run the ball in the red zone until they started going backwards from penalties.

To me, it is actually quite amazing that Murray was able to rack up 131 rushing yds with the way his O-line performed last night. As a Murray owner, it was EXTREMELY frustrating to see a penalty flag for a false start (the LT had like 3 himself!) almost EVERY time the down and distance indicated a good chance for a run play. I am admittedly concerned about the Cowboys O-line going forward, but if they can gel and cut down on the penalties, I see nothing but good things ahead for Murray.

 

[Yolkix]

Murry was really impressive but not when you compare him to Amad Bradshaw's ADP. Glad I bought in to the wait for RB theory.

Bradshaw doesn't get that TD and his day doesn't look so hot. He is the kind of guy that will be solid week to week but really needs a TD to come through. Murray strikes me as a guy who can get you 15+ points just about every week even w/o a TD.

 

[Modog814]

Murray had an okay day. I'll preface it by saying I'm not and never was a Murray supporter, but this is clearly a case of the stats not matching what was seen. Murray had 2 good runs, one a long gainer where he broke (more like the Giants missed) tackling him in the backfied twice. Another was when he squeezed through a hole that didn't look to be there. Other than that, I think the Giants held him pretty much in check. That said, I am reconsidering Murray and willing to admit that perhaps I was a little too down on Murray. I still don't think he'll end up in the top 12 and won't be worth the 1st or 2nd round pick that it cost to get him.

He had a great day. His offensive line is not very good at moving the pile. He looked really good.

We can disagree. I don't think it was great. To me, the stats look a lot better than he actually did. My biggest concern with Murray is that I don't think he can create on his own very much and thus is subject to what his line does get for him. On the two runs I mentioned, he eased some of this concern for me, but not nearly all of it. The long run was more of a fluke than anything (no, i'm not suggesting that you take it away), but he did manage to keep his feet and find a hole, so I'm giving him credit where it's due. That said, I'm still not buying and if I did own him, I'd be selling.

Sounds like the anti-Foster talk a couple years ago. Only this time, nobody can blame the scheme.

Ok. Not sure what one has to do with the other, but fine.

 

[Modog814]

Good topic.

Murray had an okay day. I'll preface it by saying I'm not and never was a Murray supporter, but this is clearly a case of the stats not matching what was seen. Murray had 2 good runs, one a long gainer where he broke (more like the Giants missed) tackling him in the backfied twice. Another was when he squeezed through a hole that didn't look to be there. Other than that, I think the Giants held him pretty much in check. That said, I am reconsidering Murray and willing to admit that perhaps I was a little too down on Murray. I still don't think he'll end up in the top 12 and won't be worth the 1st or 2nd round pick that it cost to get him.

Any one that thinks Ogletree is going to be a season savior is probably kidding themselves. Two of the top 3 options for Romo were battling or just coming back from injuries. And the Giants were down to their 5th CB having to play a large portion of the game. This is just a case of Ogletree taking advantage of a hugely favorable matchup. It won't happen often, and he'll drop back down to end your bench or waiver wire fodder as Witten and Austin regain their health.

That was about the worse thing that could have happened to Wilson. Especially this early. He'll be worked back in, but I take this as Coughlin making a point to Wilson to show what will happen if he continues his fumbling ways. It looked like they planned to get Wilson a good amount of touches and I fully expect them to go back to that plan next week.

I too will admit I may have been too down on Murray. Agree with your assessment, but I loved the way he bowled through people. No hesitation. He can go up the middle or to the outside. Don't necessarily love his vision, but it's hard to imagine him not breaking a few every game.My only point on Ogletree - won't he be going against the 4th or 5th best DB option EVERY week? With Bryant/Austin/Witten to worry about, Ogletree should have a favorable matchup every week. Isn't that how Robinson scored 11 TD's? And his receptions weren't fluky. He was getting separation.

The funny thing was I didn't see the speed I expected, but I saw some strong, violent running and good balance. The guy bounced off contact and did a great job lowering his pads into contact.Look, the Dallas o-line is not that good. If Murray can turn something into nothing behind that line, he deserves some credit. Is anyone lobbying to take out Bradshaw's big run and readjust his "real" stat line for the night? Of course not, because he's a sneaky play darling. For some reason that means he gets to count his while Murray doesn't, I guess.

I'm not sure who suggested this, but I certainly didn't. In fact, I gave him credit for keeping his feet and turning a loss into a big gain. I'll repeat, outside of 2 runs, I think he looked okay, nothing special. He did look good on those two runs though. However, I'll need to see more of that and less of the 19 other runs before I'm a believer

 

[DoubleG]

Good topic.

Murray had an okay day. I'll preface it by saying I'm not and never was a Murray supporter, but this is clearly a case of the stats not matching what was seen. Murray had 2 good runs, one a long gainer where he broke (more like the Giants missed) tackling him in the backfied twice. Another was when he squeezed through a hole that didn't look to be there. Other than that, I think the Giants held him pretty much in check. That said, I am reconsidering Murray and willing to admit that perhaps I was a little too down on Murray. I still don't think he'll end up in the top 12 and won't be worth the 1st or 2nd round pick that it cost to get him.

Any one that thinks Ogletree is going to be a season savior is probably kidding themselves. Two of the top 3 options for Romo were battling or just coming back from injuries. And the Giants were down to their 5th CB having to play a large portion of the game. This is just a case of Ogletree taking advantage of a hugely favorable matchup. It won't happen often, and he'll drop back down to end your bench or waiver wire fodder as Witten and Austin regain their health.

That was about the worse thing that could have happened to Wilson. Especially this early. He'll be worked back in, but I take this as Coughlin making a point to Wilson to show what will happen if he continues his fumbling ways. It looked like they planned to get Wilson a good amount of touches and I fully expect them to go back to that plan next week.

I too will admit I may have been too down on Murray. Agree with your assessment, but I loved the way he bowled through people. No hesitation. He can go up the middle or to the outside. Don't necessarily love his vision, but it's hard to imagine him not breaking a few every game.My only point on Ogletree - won't he be going against the 4th or 5th best DB option EVERY week? With Bryant/Austin/Witten to worry about, Ogletree should have a favorable matchup every week. Isn't that how Robinson scored 11 TD's? And his receptions weren't fluky. He was getting separation.

The funny thing was I didn't see the speed I expected, but I saw some strong, violent running and good balance. The guy bounced off contact and did a great job lowering his pads into contact.Look, the Dallas o-line is not that good. If Murray can turn something into nothing behind that line, he deserves some credit. Is anyone lobbying to take out Bradshaw's big run and readjust his "real" stat line for the night? Of course not, because he's a sneaky play darling. For some reason that means he gets to count his while Murray doesn't, I guess.

You spoke too soon. Does taking the TD away count as "readjusting his "real" staline? Post #65 (a few up) in this very thread tries to do that. I love the SP - it makes me smile when it's not making me cry.

 

[Dismattle]

I think its obvious the Cowboys game planed and played hard in a Big game. IF the Defense can play good/great all yr (guys see the hesitation for hit on the WR) Im not sayin they shut emm down, but thats a pretty good team (Im willing to accept the fact the Season just started) But the attack n coverage was pretty good. Now I wont sit here and claim I dont believe Romo will not throw to his money WR's, but I would think he'll hit the open man. I also think we all seen ex-starter RB Jones play some serious moves n fast. It almost would have been odd to see Rookie Murray, just come in n take the show (But hes large n in charge imo) Now Jerry is old school, so Murray may have some slow days (but hes a Stud)

My question is (relating to post hopefully) What was the Giants (Coach) who doesnt like fumbles thinkin? The RB almost telegraphed to the LB "punch the ball loose". I imagine that the excitement of actually playing a real game, allowed for him to forget, whats been drilled on during practices etc. I mean the guy almost has to see more game-time right (like next game) ? If not, can anyone explain what direction the Giants may intend to take..

Note: This isnt for Fantasy (dont own any of em) It just strikes me as odd (or at least odd, if the Giants dont put Wilson right back out there n soon)

p.s. Great post (OLine aint the greatest, and the WR3, is almost WR5 counting RB n TE)

 

[pwtrash]

* Dallas OL is currently one of the worst in the league. They MIGHT gel - they as a group have yet to play more than a few plays intact ... ever. This will negatively impact the offense and make Romo LOOK foolish at times and Murray ineffective at times and the WR's ineffective at times (no time to develop routes) but I do expect improvement.* Cowboys didn't have Ratliff to add to the rotation at NT and Jenkins at CB. Wow. I wouldn't be shocked if opposing WR's don't go off much all season as long as they stay healthy plus Ware rushing the passer.* Murray ran hard and looks every bit the RB1 most thought. Would have liked more targets and screen plays. The OL will be a challenge all season though.* Felix looks DONE. I wouldn't be shocked if they don't promote their PS guy and make Tanner their #2. This is important as Murray runs to contact perhaps too much.* The Dallas WR's may have abused a weaker DB group but they played physical and were willing to go into traffic. The OTrain may be hard to start in fantasy but now teams can't roll coverage to Austin/Bryant which was the fear in being so top-heavy. I wouldn't be shocked if Harris has a big game soon too ... this is Romo more than Ogletree.* Ogletree ran some great routes to get that open and caught what was thrown. He impressed. But as I said I think this does more for the TEAM than his own fantasy value down the road.* Take away Bradshaw's 33 yard run and what do HIS numbers look like? Now consider most of his production came with the Cowboys playing a deep cover clock killing defense. Until then he did nothing. They HAVE to get Wilson involved I'd think.

Murray also made a heads-up run for a first that got called back in that last drive. It was his slide. I loved that play because what Murray shows is that he's a heady, smart player. And there are going to be times in games where that awareness is going to pay fantasy dividends even though the slide (had it counted) would have meant he scored you less points than he could have. I'm not saying he the next E.Smith. But he seems to have a drive and an awareness about him when he's on the field that reminds me of Emmit and that is totally lacking in someone like Felix Jones.Garrett talked in the preseason about how veteran Murray looked and acted. That was on display last night.

Thanks for mentioning the slide. That reminded (a little) of the presence of mind that Westbrook had when he took a knee at the 1 instead of going in for the TD a few years back. When the football and situational IQ overrides RB instincts. That's not a typical 2nd year player sort of move.

 

[pwtrash]

Good topic.

Murray had an okay day. I'll preface it by saying I'm not and never was a Murray supporter, but this is clearly a case of the stats not matching what was seen. Murray had 2 good runs, one a long gainer where he broke (more like the Giants missed) tackling him in the backfied twice. Another was when he squeezed through a hole that didn't look to be there. Other than that, I think the Giants held him pretty much in check. That said, I am reconsidering Murray and willing to admit that perhaps I was a little too down on Murray. I still don't think he'll end up in the top 12 and won't be worth the 1st or 2nd round pick that it cost to get him.

Any one that thinks Ogletree is going to be a season savior is probably kidding themselves. Two of the top 3 options for Romo were battling or just coming back from injuries. And the Giants were down to their 5th CB having to play a large portion of the game. This is just a case of Ogletree taking advantage of a hugely favorable matchup. It won't happen often, and he'll drop back down to end your bench or waiver wire fodder as Witten and Austin regain their health.

That was about the worse thing that could have happened to Wilson. Especially this early. He'll be worked back in, but I take this as Coughlin making a point to Wilson to show what will happen if he continues his fumbling ways. It looked like they planned to get Wilson a good amount of touches and I fully expect them to go back to that plan next week.

I too will admit I may have been too down on Murray. Agree with your assessment, but I loved the way he bowled through people. No hesitation. He can go up the middle or to the outside. Don't necessarily love his vision, but it's hard to imagine him not breaking a few every game.My only point on Ogletree - won't he be going against the 4th or 5th best DB option EVERY week? With Bryant/Austin/Witten to worry about, Ogletree should have a favorable matchup every week. Isn't that how Robinson scored 11 TD's? And his receptions weren't fluky. He was getting separation.

The funny thing was I didn't see the speed I expected, but I saw some strong, violent running and good balance. The guy bounced off contact and did a great job lowering his pads into contact.Look, the Dallas o-line is not that good. If Murray can turn something into nothing behind that line, he deserves some credit. Is anyone lobbying to take out Bradshaw's big run and readjust his "real" stat line for the night? Of course not, because he's a sneaky play darling. For some reason that means he gets to count his while Murray doesn't, I guess.

I'm not sure who suggested this, but I certainly didn't. In fact, I gave him credit for keeping his feet and turning a loss into a big gain. I'll repeat, outside of 2 runs, I think he looked okay, nothing special. He did look good on those two runs though. However, I'll need to see more of that and less of the 19 other runs before I'm a believer

8 of his 20 runs went for 5+ yards, and it was behind a very poor OLine, going into one of the best fronts in the league. I'm not sure what you expect out of an RB. Who do you think would have gone for much more than 130 yards against this defense?

 

[cheese]

Murray had an okay day. I'll preface it by saying I'm not and never was a Murray supporter, but this is clearly a case of the stats not matching what was seen. Murray had 2 good runs, one a long gainer where he broke (more like the Giants missed) tackling him in the backfied twice. Another was when he squeezed through a hole that didn't look to be there. Other than that, I think the Giants held him pretty much in check. That said, I am reconsidering Murray and willing to admit that perhaps I was a little too down on Murray. I still don't think he'll end up in the top 12 and won't be worth the 1st or 2nd round pick that it cost to get him.

He had a great day. His offensive line is not very good at moving the pile. He looked really good.

We can disagree. I don't think it was great. To me, the stats look a lot better than he actually did. My biggest concern with Murray is that I don't think he can create on his own very much and thus is subject to what his line does get for him. On the two runs I mentioned, he eased some of this concern for me, but not nearly all of it. The long run was more of a fluke than anything (no, i'm not suggesting that you take it away), but he did manage to keep his feet and find a hole, so I'm giving him credit where it's due. That said, I'm still not buying and if I did own him, I'd be selling.

I would argue that is exactly what he did (at least in wk 1). He made something out of nothing multiple times in the opener. Whether he can make that a pattern remains to be seen.

 

[Manster]

There was much overreaction going into this FF, and real season, concerning the demise of the Cowboys offense. Romo went in the 5/6th round. Austin fell to the 7th. Now there is an overreaction the opposite way, complete with "Romo top 5" threads. Now, if Romo has a rough game, there will be a couple threads like "Romo sucks", or "The O in Big D is Offensive".

 

[Hendo]

Giant fan:

Ogletree burned Webster on the TD as Webster was caught looking into the backfield. Ogletree did his job and won the slant battles against the 5th CB, but he won them and caught the ball...he did better than Cruz in that department. Long term Ogletree is probably a 3-4 WR and Austin is still a better option.

Murray has very good vision and very good anticipation as a runner. I hate the Cowboys and their OL is not a good unit, but Murray is a very good RB. If he were on Houston, people would be thinking he is absolutely elite.

Wilson will get back in the game and do well as the Giants need him. The fumbling can't continue, but he will play and eventually take over for Bradshaw who runs really hard, but he is a guy who goes the wrong way frequently.

It was the 1st game of the year, refs stunk, both teams were really sloppy...it was week 1, don't overreact.

Thank you.After watching Murray last night, I saw a couple of things confirmed: 1) He is a bad man 2) He seeks contact and will increase his chances of injury unless he decides to avoid contact every once in a while.

The idea that he had a couple of good runs seems silly to me. In fact, I think his worst play was also on his best play - if he reads the Dez block, that 48 yarder turns into a TD.

1) It seems odd to discount a 48 yard run. There are not that many starting backs capable of beating three layers of an NFL defense for almost 50 yards.

2) Again on that run, you can't discount the fact that before he went around his olineman, he crashed into Kiwanuka and knocked him down

3) There were other notable runs: 9-yarder during the first TD drive, 9 yard rush and 9 yard pass in the second one

4) Last TD drive - where they need to kill time: 5 yards, 5 yards, 9 yards, 15 yards

5) Last drive of the game, when everyone knew what time it was: 1, 7, and then holding call.

Tough to say that was only a couple of good runs.

The interior line of Dallas is terrible and he runs like he is trying to get worker's comp, but I saw a pretty unique combination of size and speed last night.

I hear what you are saying. But I kept waiting for him to turn on that long speed we hear about and just blow down the sideline.I will say this, though. He also had that other good run capped by Bryant. That one looked like he was trying to dip back behind Bryant to pick off the DB but he ended up running into Bryant. That one looked like Bryant was loafing a bit rather than charging hard for the DB. So I wonder if it's possible that Bryant is sort of getting in the way out there when blocking down field.

Jesus... has it gotten to the point where anything that does not go the way people want is all Dez Bryants fault? I'm not proclaiming that kid a saint but he looked very good lastnight and your blaming him for Murray running in the back of him while he was trying to block? Your kidding right....? Lastnight was the first night I actualy seen that kid look like he was putting in work, what's next...? His fault too because Murray cut back into the field of tacklers on his 48yrd scamper instead of following 88s running block to the endzone?

 

[Frank Black]

OP, great post!

 

[biju]

It seems to me that the Giants defense is getting exposed for its fatal flaw. I was thinking back to the 2011 year when the Seahawks beat the Giants to try to find similarities with this game. Granted, they looked like they were about to lose until the pick-6 at the end of the game.

Marshawn Lynch: 12 carries for 98 yards/1 TD

Doug Baldwin (#3 WR): 8 receptions for 138 yards/1 TD (Tarvaris Jackson only had 166 yards passing this game)

Hmm.

Are there other examples of this? Kind of.

Week 1: Fred Davis (5/105/0)

Week 2: Danario Alexander (3/122/1)

Week 6: David Nelson (4/62/0 leading receiver)

Week 9: Wes Welker (9/136/0)

Week 10: Delanie Walker (6/69/0 leading receiver)

Week 12: Jimmy Graham (5/84/2)

Week 14: Laurent Robinson (4/137/1)

Week 16: Dustin Keller (8/77/0)

Week 17: Laurent Robinson (4/61/2)

There are a few TEs sprinkled in there as well as it isn't 100% consistent so instead of trying to tie it all up in a pretty bow, I'm going to simply state that in many cases the non-primary receiver benefits. I think I'm going to start taking a look at the #3 option for teams playing the Giants.

 

[Modog814]

Good topic.

Murray had an okay day. I'll preface it by saying I'm not and never was a Murray supporter, but this is clearly a case of the stats not matching what was seen. Murray had 2 good runs, one a long gainer where he broke (more like the Giants missed) tackling him in the backfied twice. Another was when he squeezed through a hole that didn't look to be there. Other than that, I think the Giants held him pretty much in check. That said, I am reconsidering Murray and willing to admit that perhaps I was a little too down on Murray. I still don't think he'll end up in the top 12 and won't be worth the 1st or 2nd round pick that it cost to get him.

Any one that thinks Ogletree is going to be a season savior is probably kidding themselves. Two of the top 3 options for Romo were battling or just coming back from injuries. And the Giants were down to their 5th CB having to play a large portion of the game. This is just a case of Ogletree taking advantage of a hugely favorable matchup. It won't happen often, and he'll drop back down to end your bench or waiver wire fodder as Witten and Austin regain their health.

That was about the worse thing that could have happened to Wilson. Especially this early. He'll be worked back in, but I take this as Coughlin making a point to Wilson to show what will happen if he continues his fumbling ways. It looked like they planned to get Wilson a good amount of touches and I fully expect them to go back to that plan next week.

I too will admit I may have been too down on Murray. Agree with your assessment, but I loved the way he bowled through people. No hesitation. He can go up the middle or to the outside. Don't necessarily love his vision, but it's hard to imagine him not breaking a few every game.My only point on Ogletree - won't he be going against the 4th or 5th best DB option EVERY week? With Bryant/Austin/Witten to worry about, Ogletree should have a favorable matchup every week. Isn't that how Robinson scored 11 TD's? And his receptions weren't fluky. He was getting separation.

The funny thing was I didn't see the speed I expected, but I saw some strong, violent running and good balance. The guy bounced off contact and did a great job lowering his pads into contact.Look, the Dallas o-line is not that good. If Murray can turn something into nothing behind that line, he deserves some credit. Is anyone lobbying to take out Bradshaw's big run and readjust his "real" stat line for the night? Of course not, because he's a sneaky play darling. For some reason that means he gets to count his while Murray doesn't, I guess.

I'm not sure who suggested this, but I certainly didn't. In fact, I gave him credit for keeping his feet and turning a loss into a big gain. I'll repeat, outside of 2 runs, I think he looked okay, nothing special. He did look good on those two runs though. However, I'll need to see more of that and less of the 19 other runs before I'm a believer

8 of his 20 runs went for 5+ yards, and it was behind a very poor OLine, going into one of the best fronts in the league. I'm not sure what you expect out of an RB. Who do you think would have gone for much more than 130 yards against this defense?

I'm talking about purely watching him. People keep claiming his Oline is really poor, but most of the 8 5+ yard runs he had some nice holes to run through. I've already said that his stat line was good, but I believe it's a case of the stat line looking more impressive than he actually was.

 

[Modog814]

Murray had an okay day. I'll preface it by saying I'm not and never was a Murray supporter, but this is clearly a case of the stats not matching what was seen. Murray had 2 good runs, one a long gainer where he broke (more like the Giants missed) tackling him in the backfied twice. Another was when he squeezed through a hole that didn't look to be there. Other than that, I think the Giants held him pretty much in check. That said, I am reconsidering Murray and willing to admit that perhaps I was a little too down on Murray. I still don't think he'll end up in the top 12 and won't be worth the 1st or 2nd round pick that it cost to get him.

He had a great day. His offensive line is not very good at moving the pile. He looked really good.

We can disagree. I don't think it was great. To me, the stats look a lot better than he actually did. My biggest concern with Murray is that I don't think he can create on his own very much and thus is subject to what his line does get for him. On the two runs I mentioned, he eased some of this concern for me, but not nearly all of it. The long run was more of a fluke than anything (no, i'm not suggesting that you take it away), but he did manage to keep his feet and find a hole, so I'm giving him credit where it's due. That said, I'm still not buying and if I did own him, I'd be selling.

I would argue that is exactly what he did (at least in wk 1). He made something out of nothing multiple times in the opener. Whether he can make that a pattern remains to be seen.

I'd agree with that argument. Although I think "multiple times" might be too strong a phrase, as I recall him doing it twice, maybe 3 times. If he can continue to do it and do it with more consistency, I'll be the first to admit I was wrong about him. Until then, I still have my doubts, and I'd rather be facing him each week than having to start him each week.

 

[The Kuhn]

It seems to me that the Giants defense is getting exposed for its fatal flaw. I was thinking back to the 2011 year when the Seahawks beat the Giants to try to find similarities with this game. Granted, they looked like they were about to lose until the pick-6 at the end of the game.Marshawn Lynch: 12 carries for 98 yards/1 TDDoug Baldwin (#3 WR): 8 receptions for 138 yards/1 TD (Tarvaris Jackson only had 166 yards passing this game)Hmm.Are there other examples of this? Kind of.Week 1: Fred Davis (5/105/0)Week 2: Danario Alexander (3/122/1)Week 6: David Nelson (4/62/0 leading receiver)Week 9: Wes Welker (9/136/0)Week 10: Delanie Walker (6/69/0 leading receiver)Week 12: Jimmy Graham (5/84/2)Week 14: Laurent Robinson (4/137/1)Week 16: Dustin Keller (8/77/0)Week 17: Laurent Robinson (4/61/2)There are a few TEs sprinkled in there as well as it isn't 100% consistent so instead of trying to tie it all up in a pretty bow, I'm going to simply state that in many cases the non-primary receiver benefits. I think I'm going to start taking a look at the #3 option for teams playing the Giants.

Well, they have TB in week 2. You gotta have BIG cajones to start the #3 receiving option on TB next week.

 

[Hipple Long Ware & Peete]

It seems to me that the Giants defense is getting exposed for its fatal flaw. I was thinking back to the 2011 year when the Seahawks beat the Giants to try to find similarities with this game. Granted, they looked like they were about to lose until the pick-6 at the end of the game.Marshawn Lynch: 12 carries for 98 yards/1 TDDoug Baldwin (#3 WR): 8 receptions for 138 yards/1 TD (Tarvaris Jackson only had 166 yards passing this game)Hmm.Are there other examples of this? Kind of.Week 1: Fred Davis (5/105/0)Week 2: Danario Alexander (3/122/1)Week 6: David Nelson (4/62/0 leading receiver)Week 9: Wes Welker (9/136/0)Week 10: Delanie Walker (6/69/0 leading receiver)Week 12: Jimmy Graham (5/84/2)Week 14: Laurent Robinson (4/137/1)Week 16: Dustin Keller (8/77/0)Week 17: Laurent Robinson (4/61/2)There are a few TEs sprinkled in there as well as it isn't 100% consistent so instead of trying to tie it all up in a pretty bow, I'm going to simply state that in many cases the non-primary receiver benefits. I think I'm going to start taking a look at the #3 option for teams playing the Giants.

Well, they have TB in week 2. You gotta have BIG cajones to start the #3 receiving option on TB next week.

not necessarily. I think Preston Parker should be able to put up wr2 #s in tht game vs the g'aint d

 

[ShaHBucks]

Murry was really impressive but not when you compare him to Amad Bradshaw's ADP. Glad I bought in to the wait for RB theory.

Bradshaw doesn't get that TD and his day doesn't look so hot. He is the kind of guy that will be solid week to week but really needs a TD to come through. Murray strikes me as a guy who can get you 15+ points just about every week even w/o a TD.

Understood but Bradshaw did score from ten yards out. He's a beast in a good offense so I love me some Amad Bradshaw. He was a target of mine in rounds 3-4 along with a few other guys that could have top 10 finishes so at least for week one I'm right.

 

[biju]

It seems to me that the Giants defense is getting exposed for its fatal flaw. I was thinking back to the 2011 year when the Seahawks beat the Giants to try to find similarities with this game. Granted, they looked like they were about to lose until the pick-6 at the end of the game.Marshawn Lynch: 12 carries for 98 yards/1 TDDoug Baldwin (#3 WR): 8 receptions for 138 yards/1 TD (Tarvaris Jackson only had 166 yards passing this game)Hmm.Are there other examples of this? Kind of.Week 1: Fred Davis (5/105/0)Week 2: Danario Alexander (3/122/1)Week 6: David Nelson (4/62/0 leading receiver)Week 9: Wes Welker (9/136/0)Week 10: Delanie Walker (6/69/0 leading receiver)Week 12: Jimmy Graham (5/84/2)Week 14: Laurent Robinson (4/137/1)Week 16: Dustin Keller (8/77/0)Week 17: Laurent Robinson (4/61/2)There are a few TEs sprinkled in there as well as it isn't 100% consistent so instead of trying to tie it all up in a pretty bow, I'm going to simply state that in many cases the non-primary receiver benefits. I think I'm going to start taking a look at the #3 option for teams playing the Giants.

Well, they have TB in week 2. You gotta have BIG cajones to start the #3 receiving option on TB next week.

not necessarily. I think Preston Parker should be able to put up wr2 #s in tht game vs the g'aint d

Actually I'm thinking more about Luke Stocker for that game, although I'll admit I don't have the cajones to follow my own take just yet...