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P. Manning-just a guy without his weapons. (1 Viewer)

jurrassic

jurrassic

Footballguy
I couldn't help but think about this last night as I watched Manning try to make plays with Utecht, Morehead, and Thorpe. Alot has been made over the years about what Brady would do if he had the weapons Manning had. I think we found out the answer to that this year. Favre has consistently won without top flight weapons. Manning did not put this team on his shoulders and win, like Favre and Brady have done for years. I still think the guy is great, but he showed some chinks in the armor last night.

 
I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

 
As average as Brady's WR's were, I still think guys like Branch and Givens are a significant upgrade on 3rd stringers like Moorehead and Thorpe. Thorpe had never had a reception in the NFL before.

Give Peyton, oh I don't know, Reggie Brown and Chris Chambers and he'd still make the playoffs.

 
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So one bad game and instantly you take away all he has accomplished? The Chargers and Cromartie played out their arses last night. Give them some credit. Manning still, despite 6 INTs, put up solid numbers. And if Vinatieri doesnt channel the idiot kicker, this isnt even a discussion.

If he has to go through a whole season without Harrison, Wayne and Clark and he sucks, then lets talk.

 
B Maverick said:
So one bad game and instantly you take away all he has accomplished? The Chargers and Cromartie played out their arses last night. Give them some credit. Manning still, despite 6 INTs, put up solid numbers. And if Vinatieri doesnt channel the idiot kicker, this isnt even a discussion.If he has to go through a whole season without Harrison, Wayne and Clark and he sucks, then lets talk.
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I don't think anyone's saying he sucks, but his play has been much more pedestrian without Marvin.
 
Evilgrin 72 said:
B Maverick said:
So one bad game and instantly you take away all he has accomplished? The Chargers and Cromartie played out their arses last night. Give them some credit. Manning still, despite 6 INTs, put up solid numbers. And if Vinatieri doesnt channel the idiot kicker, this isnt even a discussion.If he has to go through a whole season without Harrison, Wayne and Clark and he sucks, then lets talk.
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I don't think anyone's saying he sucks, but his play has been much more pedestrian without Marvin.
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Exactly read my post again. I said, I still think he is great. I just think we need to credit his weapons as much as him for his success.
 
Let's see...Harrison OUT, Dallas Clark OUT, Gonzalez OUT, both the starting LT and his backup and the RT injured. There was no running game. They were way behind most of the game. It was raining.

Considering that, and despite the interceptions, I thought this was a pretty gutty performance for Manning. This coming from someone who has been critical of Manning over the years.

 
kerpow said:
As average as Brady's WR's were, I still think guys like Branch and Givens are a significant upgrade on 3rd stringers like Moorehead and Thorpe. Thorpe had never had a reception in the NFL before.

Give Peyton, oh I don't know, Reggie Brown and Chris Chambers and he'd still make the playoffs.
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How about if we give Peyton, oh I don't know... Reggie Wayne? I'm pretty sure that Wayne and garbage is better then Caldwell and Gaffney...and at least equal to Branch and Givens. Still, Peyton had a heck of a comeback in the 2nd half and almost overcame his brutal first half. He just needs some time and reps with these other wrs.

 
I'm not sure what you wanted Manning to do. He led his team to what should have been a winning FG. It's not his fault Vinatieri missed what was essentially a 3-pt extra point (29-yard FG attempt) with less than 2 minutes to go in the game.

 
komments said:
I'm not sure what you wanted Manning to do. He led his team to what should have been a winning FG. It's not his fault Vinatieri missed what was essentially a 3-pt extra point (29-yard FG attempt) with less than 2 minutes to go in the game.
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I'm just putting it out there for discussion. It's very similar to the "if Barry had Emmit's line" debate. Manning is great but a good deal of that greatness is due to the weapons around. Harrison and Clark are just as important to him as he is to them. For years, Brady has won with decent not great players, so has Favre. Yes this is only 1 game, but it was interesting to watch none the less. He did lead them on a nice comeback but the guy threw 6 picks. You can argue he is the reason they lost. Yes Vinatiari missed a kick but if Manning would have thrown a few less picks they may scored a few more times.
 
shadyridr said:
I actually thought Manning looked awesome in the 2nd half last night
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Agreed. He played within himself and didn't try to throw the home run ball all the time. They killed the Chargers w/ short passes. He did enough to win. Colts D was lights out as well. Just a flukey missed kick that goes through and we're all singing his praises.
 
Yes, Manning threw 6 INTs, but hardly any of them were converted into points by the Chargers. Despite Manning's struggles, had the Colts special teams been even average, the Colts would have won that game easily. Last night showed how important special teams are to winning football games, and they were the biggest reason why Indy lost that game, not Manning. Two returns for TDs and a chip shot miss by Vinatieri.

 
Consider the injuries to his starting wide-outs as well as his starting line - including some during the game - and then factor in the experience level of the replacement WR's. The weather was a significan factor in the game as well (e.g. the Rivers' fumble in the end zone). I thought 320+ yards and 2 TD's given all of that was still pretty good, and Manning still managed to take that motley, jury-rigged crew all the way down to the 6 in the end to put his team in position to win it.

Ni

 
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I don't think it just was the personal on the field, I think allot of Manning success is using the no huddle and having the same core of guys for several season. Playing at a quick pace, calling plays at the line. Not allowing defenses to shuttle guys in and out. They did have that yesterday.

 
jurrassic said:
I couldn't help but think about this last night as I watched Manning try to make plays with Utecht, Morehead, and Thorpe. Alot has been made over the years about what Brady would do if he had the weapons Manning had. I think we found out the answer to that this year. Favre has consistently won without top flight weapons. Manning did not put this team on his shoulders and win, like Favre and Brady have done for years. I still think the guy is great, but he showed some chinks in the armor last night.
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First of all...Favre struggled 2 years ago when Walker went out and Ferguson was hurt and he was throwing to practice squad guys too.Brady has had bad games with guys that maybe might not have been great WRs...but he at least was practicing with every week.The guy struggled last night...and he had a bunch of WRs he had not really thrown to at all.Hell, other than Wayne, his WRs had 32 total career receptions before last night.But he did have Addai, Utecht and a gimpy Clark.But come on...its one game.Did Brady show chinks in the armor with his INTs in the playoffs last year?Overreaction on these boards are hilarious.
 
Ghost Rider said:
Yes, Manning threw 6 INTs, but hardly any of them were converted into points by the Chargers. Despite Manning's struggles, had the Colts special teams been even average, the Colts would have won that game easily. Last night showed how important special teams are to winning football games, and they were the biggest reason why Indy lost that game, not Manning. Two returns for TDs and a chip shot miss by Vinatieri.
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:goodposting: Let's talk about Brady's legacy if he has Vinatieri missing GW kicks.
 
Manning will be fine.. Colts made me proud last night very gutsy performance. San Diego was just the better team last night.

:goodposting:

 
sho nuff said:
talongrey said:
brobe4 said:
Manning will be fine.. Colts made me proud last night very gutsy performance. San Diego was just the better team last night. :popcorn:
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Spoken like a true :homer:
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I think its true...defense played quite well.Special teams...not so much.
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That game was decided by special teams.Manning played a heck of a game and there were some dropped balls even in the second half. A couple of his picks were fluky and the last one was just a desperation deep ball with time running out.
 
I'm a NE homer here and this is sort of a silly thread. The Colts have been playing well with out Marvin (anyone see the colts/pats game last week?) and they lost two of their other prime targets going into this week. There wasn't enough time to build the chemistry with the guys filling in. Judge him at the end of the year.

 
As others mentioned...what really hurt with the inexperience was the Colts getting out of their no-huddle style offense...because the new guys just did not have a handle of it yet.

 
I didnt like the conservative play calling at the end. manning should have tried at least once to put the ball into the endzone. Another case of a team trying not to lose, yet loses anyway.

 
jurrassic said:
I couldn't help but think about this last night as I watched Manning try to make plays with Utecht, Morehead, and Thorpe. Alot has been made over the years about what Brady would do if he had the weapons Manning had. I think we found out the answer to that this year. Favre has consistently won without top flight weapons. Manning did not put this team on his shoulders and win, like Favre and Brady have done for years. I still think the guy is great, but he showed some chinks in the armor last night.
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Everyone's entitled to a bad game. He didn't play well but sometimes you have to win games even when you're not playing well. Romo did the same thing earlier this year in Buffalo but was bailed out by his kicker who nailed two 53 yard field goals to win the game.Manning gave his kicker a shot to win it and it was just a 29 yarder, nothing really different.To think that Manning is somehow after one night not as great as he always has been is pretty amazing thinking. This is the King of the threads for What have you done for me lately.
 
I truly believe Manning choked, once again, like in the playoffs last year. His QB rating for the playoffs was 69.8, down from 101 during the regular season. He threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs in the playoffs. He threw an early pick and lost an early fumble in the Super Bowl. If it wasn't for Rex Grossman being even more horrible, he could have choked away that game too. In 16 playoff quarters last year, he play horrifically in 14 of them. Only against an injury riddled and flu-ridden Patriots defense did he manage to string 2 good quarters up.

Unfortunately, because he "got his ring" people will forget he choked once again. But it was the Indy DEFENSE, ironically, that won that championship. Manning choked last year like he always has. He choked against the Patriots two weeks ago, fumbling the last two possessions and he choked last night with a little adversity and classic Manning blame everyone else mode came out. He's a fraud. Great talent. Great player. But going back to college has always choked and imploded in almost every big game. Nothing has changed. He has one ring in which an unlikely collection on defense put his choking *** on their backs and overcame it.

 
Bonginator said:
I truly believe Manning choked, once again, like in the playoffs last year. His QB rating for the playoffs was 69.8, down from 101 during the regular season. He threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs in the playoffs. He threw an early pick and lost an early fumble in the Super Bowl. If it wasn't for Rex Grossman being even more horrible, he could have choked away that game too. In 16 playoff quarters last year, he play horrifically in 14 of them. Only against an injury riddled and flu-ridden Patriots defense did he manage to string 2 good quarters up.Unfortunately, because he "got his ring" people will forget he choked once again. But it was the Indy DEFENSE, ironically, that won that championship. Manning choked last year like he always has. He choked against the Patriots two weeks ago, fumbling the last two possessions and he choked last night with a little adversity and classic Manning blame everyone else mode came out. He's a fraud. Great talent. Great player. But going back to college has always choked and imploded in almost every big game. Nothing has changed. He has one ring in which an unlikely collection on defense put his choking *** on their backs and overcame it.
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Quit this choked crap...he has also had some very good games in the past and the defense could not do a thing.The guy is a great QB...he has his ring...he has his MVPs...and if he keeps playing like this he will take every passing record Favre is setting.
 
Bonginator said:
I truly believe Manning choked, once again, like in the playoffs last year. His QB rating for the playoffs was 69.8, down from 101 during the regular season. He threw 3 TDs and 7 INTs in the playoffs. He threw an early pick and lost an early fumble in the Super Bowl. If it wasn't for Rex Grossman being even more horrible, he could have choked away that game too. In 16 playoff quarters last year, he play horrifically in 14 of them. Only against an injury riddled and flu-ridden Patriots defense did he manage to string 2 good quarters up.Unfortunately, because he "got his ring" people will forget he choked once again. But it was the Indy DEFENSE, ironically, that won that championship. Manning choked last year like he always has. He choked against the Patriots two weeks ago, fumbling the last two possessions and he choked last night with a little adversity and classic Manning blame everyone else mode came out. He's a fraud. Great talent. Great player. But going back to college has always choked and imploded in almost every big game. Nothing has changed. He has one ring in which an unlikely collection on defense put his choking *** on their backs and overcame it.
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Wow! :sarcasm:
 
i've always tried to find ways to discredit peyton manning (grew up a marino fan and resent peyton), but honestly, i gained even more respect for peyton last night.

obviously, it was a miserable night for peyton with 5 ints (plus 1 meaningless one) and the chargers got 2 return TDs.

despite that, the colts should've won the game.

they were on the road against a (sometimes) very good team and were destroyed by injuries.

peyton made moorhead, thorpe, fletcher, and utecht look pretty good in the process.

peyton is still peyton (likely will be considered a top 3 QB all time when he's done)

all QBs need good WRs to dominate and all QBs will look bad at times with bad WRs.

i love favre, but you can't say he tore it up with subpar weapons. sterling sharpe, javon walker, donald driver, and greg jennings aren't exactly scrubs.

by most accounts, he was an awful QB between the time javon went down and jennings developed.

brady is about the only QB that you could possibly argue had great success with suppar weapons. but his WRs weren't completely horrible and it wasn't until this year that he was completely lighting it up on the stat sheet (wasn't his prev. high for TDs about 25-26?). i would never take anything away from brady, he's great, but even this year, moss has made him look great on often poorly thrown deep balls.

with peyton, you could say he has great weapons, but it's entirely possible that the presence and talent of peyton manning has turned harrison and wayne (and stokely and clark and edge and addai) into stars when they may have been just pretty good players on other teams.

we don't know what harrison and wayne would've done on different teams with different QBs. i'd bet if you given peyton enough time with moorehead and thorpe, he'd make them better than they'd be on other teams.

all these guys are great QBs (peyton, brady, favre). when they have the weapons, they use them properly and are unstoppable. that's more than you could say for 90% of nfl QBs these days. without top weapons, they still get the job done. it's just not as pretty.

 
FantasyTrader said:
I thought he did enough. He can't kick the FG's too. And Favre has not consistently won. The Pack have had some very down years.
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Link? They've had one losing season since 1992.
 
Just a guy without his weapsons implies that he had SOMEthing other than Wayne with which to work with last night.

Moorhead???

CRAPthonso?????????

Seriously, these guys are not average. They are not below average. They are pretty damn bad. Manning had one of the worst nights of his career and STILL should have won that game had it not been for Adam V choking for once.

 
Sabertooth said:
FantasyTrader said:
I thought he did enough. He can't kick the FG's too. And Favre has not consistently won. The Pack have had some very down years.
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Link? They've had one losing season since 1992.
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ExactlyHow does a QB become the all time wins leader without consistently winning? :confused:
 
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"Manning leads comeback after 5 int. Colts beat the Chargers" would have been the headlines if Vinatieri made that FG. Then all the posts would have been about how Manning is the Greatness even without his weapons.

Please try not to stir the pot because Vinatieri choked.

 
How about giving a Manning a little credit for throwing for 300+ yards last night (with "no weapons" as you say) and rallying his team from a 23 point deficit? It's not his fault the idiot kicker went 0 for 2.

The Colts are NOTHING without Manning.

 
I completely agree. Reggie Wayne was the best player on the field last night. Dungy should not have put the game on the foot of his idiot kicker.

 
BusterTBronco said:
I completely agree. Reggie Wayne was the best player on the field last night. Dungy should not have put the game on the foot of his idiot kicker.
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I assume this is sarcasm? Or is it about the most off the mark comment I have ever seen on these boards - and that says a LOT. The best/most clutch kicker probably EVER on a near chip shot, even considering the weather and you want to what - toss it into the endzone in that same weather?
 
Well, your "best", "most clutch kicker in NFL histor" was 0 for 2 last night. And the phrase "idiot kicker" was coined by Manning, not me.

 
Anthony Borbely said:
Let's see...Harrison OUT, Dallas Clark OUT, Gonzalez OUT, both the starting LT and his backup and the RT injured. There was no running game. They were way behind most of the game. It was raining. Considering that, and despite the interceptions, I thought this was a pretty gutty performance for Manning. This coming from someone who has been critical of Manning over the years.
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Keep in mind the Chargers best corner, Jammer was out. Their best defensve end, Castillo was out as well. That is 2 of the Chargers best 5 defenders Not saying that is would have mattered too much, but I think Manning may have had 8 ints if the Chargers Defense was at full strength, just a thought really. :goodposting:
 
jurrassic said:
I couldn't help but think about this last night as I watched Manning try to make plays with Utecht, Morehead, and Thorpe. Alot has been made over the years about what Brady would do if he had the weapons Manning had. I think we found out the answer to that this year. Favre has consistently won without top flight weapons. Manning did not put this team on his shoulders and win, like Favre and Brady have done for years. I still think the guy is great, but he showed some chinks in the armor last night.
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Completely ridiculous. Morehead dropped what would have been a game-winning pass, that Manning put directly on the money. And more specifically, Manning did exactly what Brady did in nearly all of his late-game winning drives; put Vinatieri in a position to win the game with a short field goal.
 
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