P. Manning-just a guy without his weapons. (1 Viewer)

[switz]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

 

[PsychoMan]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

 

[switz]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

Well, let's see, Harrison only had 1 of Peyton's 31 TDs, and 247 of his 4040 yards...In the 5 games Harrison played in, Manning's line was:109 of 165 for 1225 yards and 9 TDsIn the 11 games without Harrison, Mannign line was:228 of 350 for 2815 yards and 22 TDsIf Harrison were the difference maker, you would expect that the 5 games Harrison played in would make up a greater than 32% amount of his stats. Yet, in the games Harrison missed, Manning actually put up higher numbers.With Harrison:1.8 TDs per game245 yards per gameWithout Harrison:2 TDs per game256 yards per gameA slight improvement, which is impressive when you consider the guys filling in for Harrison were a rookie and a practice squad guy for the most part.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Anyone who is putting the majority of the blame for the loss to the Chargers on Manning's shoulders doesn't understand football. It really is that simple.

It really is that simple. Manning played a great game. Are these people really football fans?

No, just people with an agenda. The pick at the goal line was 100% the fault of Kenton Keith...of course losing a game has more to do with defense and special teams as well

 

[GreekFreak]

Anyone who is putting the majority of the blame for the loss to the Chargers on Manning's shoulders doesn't understand football. It really is that simple.

It really is that simple. Manning played a great game. Are these people really football fans?

No, just people with an agenda. The pick at the goal line was 100% the fault of Kenton Keith...of course losing a game has more to do with defense and special teams as well

No agenda, just stating the fact that Manning is a choke artist when it comes to big games

 

[switz]

Anyone who is putting the majority of the blame for the loss to the Chargers on Manning's shoulders doesn't understand football. It really is that simple.

It really is that simple. Manning played a great game. Are these people really football fans?

No, just people with an agenda. The pick at the goal line was 100% the fault of Kenton Keith...of course losing a game has more to do with defense and special teams as well

No agenda, just stating the fact that Manning is a choke artist when it comes to big games

No brain either apparently...

 

[bostonfred]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

Well, let's see, Harrison only had 1 of Peyton's 31 TDs, and 247 of his 4040 yards...In the 5 games Harrison played in, Manning's line was:109 of 165 for 1225 yards and 9 TDsIn the 11 games without Harrison, Mannign line was:228 of 350 for 2815 yards and 22 TDsIf Harrison were the difference maker, you would expect that the 5 games Harrison played in would make up a greater than 32% amount of his stats. Yet, in the games Harrison missed, Manning actually put up higher numbers.With Harrison:1.8 TDs per game245 yards per gameWithout Harrison:2 TDs per game256 yards per gameA slight improvement, which is impressive when you consider the guys filling in for Harrison were a rookie and a practice squad guy for the most part.

The guys who improved most with Harrison out were Clark and Wayne. Clark put up 11 TDs after never putting up more than 5 in his career, while putting up runaway career best statistics in yards (58, compared with his previous best of 37) and receptions (compared with his previous best of 488). Wayne put up career best numbers in receptions (104) and yards (1510), and his second best career year in TDs (10). Addai also put up personal bests in all three statistics, with 41 receptions for 364 yards and 3 TDs. The other targets didn't do that much.The interesting question is why did Clark's numbers improve? Did he get better? Did Manning pick this year to make him better? Or, as I think, did Manning have such an embarrassment of riches in the receiving corps in the past that Clark was an afterthought? With hall of famer Harrison, pro bowl Wayne, and a top running game, Clark could be the outlet guy who catches 30-40 balls and gets a handful of TDs, until they actually needed him, when they started using him way more than they used to. I also believe that Clark did better with Manning than he would have done with other QBs, but I believe the only reason Manning did as well as he did this season because, even without Harrison, he STILL had three pro bowl caliber targets to throw to.

 

[switz]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

Well, let's see, Harrison only had 1 of Peyton's 31 TDs, and 247 of his 4040 yards...In the 5 games Harrison played in, Manning's line was:109 of 165 for 1225 yards and 9 TDsIn the 11 games without Harrison, Mannign line was:228 of 350 for 2815 yards and 22 TDsIf Harrison were the difference maker, you would expect that the 5 games Harrison played in would make up a greater than 32% amount of his stats. Yet, in the games Harrison missed, Manning actually put up higher numbers.With Harrison:1.8 TDs per game245 yards per gameWithout Harrison:2 TDs per game256 yards per gameA slight improvement, which is impressive when you consider the guys filling in for Harrison were a rookie and a practice squad guy for the most part.

The guys who improved most with Harrison out were Clark and Wayne. Clark put up 11 TDs after never putting up more than 5 in his career, while putting up runaway career best statistics in yards (58, compared with his previous best of 37) and receptions (compared with his previous best of 488). Wayne put up career best numbers in receptions (104) and yards (1510), and his second best career year in TDs (10). Addai also put up personal bests in all three statistics, with 41 receptions for 364 yards and 3 TDs. The other targets didn't do that much.The interesting question is why did Clark's numbers improve? Did he get better? Did Manning pick this year to make him better? Or, as I think, did Manning have such an embarrassment of riches in the receiving corps in the past that Clark was an afterthought? With hall of famer Harrison, pro bowl Wayne, and a top running game, Clark could be the outlet guy who catches 30-40 balls and gets a handful of TDs, until they actually needed him, when they started using him way more than they used to. I also believe that Clark did better with Manning than he would have done with other QBs, but I believe the only reason Manning did as well as he did this season because, even without Harrison, he STILL had three pro bowl caliber targets to throw to.

I just your spin on things

 

[GreekFreak]

Anyone who is putting the majority of the blame for the loss to the Chargers on Manning's shoulders doesn't understand football. It really is that simple.

It really is that simple. Manning played a great game. Are these people really football fans?

No, just people with an agenda. The pick at the goal line was 100% the fault of Kenton Keith...of course losing a game has more to do with defense and special teams as well

No agenda, just stating the fact that Manning is a choke artist when it comes to big games

No brain either apparently...

Ok, he played a great game until the final 2 minutes, then he pulled his patented choke jobbetter?

 

[bostonfred]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

Well, let's see, Harrison only had 1 of Peyton's 31 TDs, and 247 of his 4040 yards...In the 5 games Harrison played in, Manning's line was:109 of 165 for 1225 yards and 9 TDsIn the 11 games without Harrison, Mannign line was:228 of 350 for 2815 yards and 22 TDsIf Harrison were the difference maker, you would expect that the 5 games Harrison played in would make up a greater than 32% amount of his stats. Yet, in the games Harrison missed, Manning actually put up higher numbers.With Harrison:1.8 TDs per game245 yards per gameWithout Harrison:2 TDs per game256 yards per gameA slight improvement, which is impressive when you consider the guys filling in for Harrison were a rookie and a practice squad guy for the most part.

The guys who improved most with Harrison out were Clark and Wayne. Clark put up 11 TDs after never putting up more than 5 in his career, while putting up runaway career best statistics in yards (58, compared with his previous best of 37) and receptions (compared with his previous best of 488). Wayne put up career best numbers in receptions (104) and yards (1510), and his second best career year in TDs (10). Addai also put up personal bests in all three statistics, with 41 receptions for 364 yards and 3 TDs. The other targets didn't do that much.The interesting question is why did Clark's numbers improve? Did he get better? Did Manning pick this year to make him better? Or, as I think, did Manning have such an embarrassment of riches in the receiving corps in the past that Clark was an afterthought? With hall of famer Harrison, pro bowl Wayne, and a top running game, Clark could be the outlet guy who catches 30-40 balls and gets a handful of TDs, until they actually needed him, when they started using him way more than they used to. I also believe that Clark did better with Manning than he would have done with other QBs, but I believe the only reason Manning did as well as he did this season because, even without Harrison, he STILL had three pro bowl caliber targets to throw to.

I just your spin on things

But again you refuse to or fail to refute it...

 

[the hairy scotsman]

God, this board's really going to ####. Everything's either "best ever" or "worst ever" with zero analysis to back it up.

 

[switz]

Anyone who is putting the majority of the blame for the loss to the Chargers on Manning's shoulders doesn't understand football. It really is that simple.

It really is that simple. Manning played a great game. Are these people really football fans?

No, just people with an agenda. The pick at the goal line was 100% the fault of Kenton Keith...of course losing a game has more to do with defense and special teams as well

No agenda, just stating the fact that Manning is a choke artist when it comes to big games

No brain either apparently...

Ok, he played a great game until the final 2 minutes, then he pulled his patented choke jobbetter?

Only if you can explain HOW he choked - which you can't... since he didn't.

 

[salmonstud]

As average as Brady's WR's were, I still think guys like Branch and Givens are a significant upgrade on 3rd stringers like Moorehead and Thorpe. Thorpe had never had a reception in the NFL before.Give Peyton, oh I don't know, Reggie Brown and Chris Chambers and he'd still make the playoffs.

Give Peyton Branch, Troy Brown, David Patten, is hea) winning 3 SB's2. winning anything significant3. going to any pro bowls?i'd answer NO to all three...Manning proved yesterday that he is simply NOT on the same level as Brady, or Favre, or Young, Elway, et al...he's good, a Hall of Famer, but at least in my opinion, he's a notch below those others..

Give Manning the NE Defense during that time frame & I might answer yes to 2 if not all 3.

 

[thayman]

Anyone who is putting the majority of the blame for the loss to the Chargers on Manning's shoulders doesn't understand football. It really is that simple.

It really is that simple. Manning played a great game. Are these people really football fans?

No, just people with an agenda. The pick at the goal line was 100% the fault of Kenton Keith...of course losing a game has more to do with defense and special teams as well

No agenda, just stating the fact that Manning is a choke artist when it comes to big games

He choked his way into a Super Bowl ring last year.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Anyone who is putting the majority of the blame for the loss to the Chargers on Manning's shoulders doesn't understand football. It really is that simple.

It really is that simple. Manning played a great game. Are these people really football fans?

No, just people with an agenda. The pick at the goal line was 100% the fault of Kenton Keith...of course losing a game has more to do with defense and special teams as well

No agenda, just stating the fact that Manning is a choke artist when it comes to big games

Perspective, please introduce yourself to GreekFreak

 

[Liquid Tension]

God, this board's really going to ####. Everything's either "best ever" or "worst ever" with zero analysis to back it up.

There is rarely middle ground; everyone is trying to prove their point rather than searching for the truth

 

[Liquid Tension]

As average as Brady's WR's were, I still think guys like Branch and Givens are a significant upgrade on 3rd stringers like Moorehead and Thorpe. Thorpe had never had a reception in the NFL before.Give Peyton, oh I don't know, Reggie Brown and Chris Chambers and he'd still make the playoffs.

Give Peyton Branch, Troy Brown, David Patten, is hea) winning 3 SB's2. winning anything significant3. going to any pro bowls?i'd answer NO to all three...Manning proved yesterday that he is simply NOT on the same level as Brady, or Favre, or Young, Elway, et al...he's good, a Hall of Famer, but at least in my opinion, he's a notch below those others..

Give Manning the NE Defense during that time frame & I might answer yes to 2 if not all 3.

I just don't understand the SB comments from people. The big knock on Manning to these people was that he couldn't win the big one and then he wins in it and it is because he has so much talent around him. News alert folks, I don't think it is possible for any QB to win a SB without a lot of talent around him. The QB is the largest %, but still a small % of the team. This is why mediocre QB's have won a SB and Roethlisberger put up one of the worst SB winning performance of all time (my sig gives some percentages).Having a good defense and special teams is more important than the offense of which the QB is less than half of...Do you think that Marino might have won a SB if he had some defenses? Do you think Bradshaw happened to get a lot of rings because he was surrounded by excellent players? The answer is yes. as great as Brady is, do you think he would have as many SB wins as he does if he didn't have a great coach, a solid defense and a kicker who performed very clutch? the answer is no.

 

[Bill Lust]

There are plenty of people who go out of their way to try to put the blame on Peyton every time the Colts lose a game, but there seem to be just as many people who practically break their backs making excuses for him, too. I think everyone can agree that the Colts' defense was the reason that this team lost last weekend. However, when a team has that big of a letdown you simply cannot let the QB off the hook. The throw that Cromartie picked off and took back for a TD (that was called back) was a terrible throw.

 

[Pat Patriot]

There are plenty of people who go out of their way to try to put the blame on Peyton every time the Colts lose a game, but there seem to be just as many people who practically break their backs making excuses for him, too. I think everyone can agree that the Colts' defense was the reason that this team lost last weekend. However, when a team has that big of a letdown you simply cannot let the QB off the hook. The throw that Cromartie picked off and took back for a TD (that was called back) was a terrible throw.

I cant believe how many people have given Manning a pass because both interceptions were tipped. Wayne was LUCKY (or unlucky depending on your perspective) to get a hand on that pass. It was very high and WAY behind Wayne. As Lust says, it was a terrible throw.

 

[Liquid Tension]

There are plenty of people who go out of their way to try to put the blame on Peyton every time the Colts lose a game, but there seem to be just as many people who practically break their backs making excuses for him, too. I think everyone can agree that the Colts' defense was the reason that this team lost last weekend. However, when a team has that big of a letdown you simply cannot let the QB off the hook. The throw that Cromartie picked off and took back for a TD (that was called back) was a terrible throw.

Sure there is the middle ground. I think Manning is an excellent QB, but he makes mistakes. Sure it was a big letdown, but SD played a very good game and Indy played a decent game with 3 big mistakes that made it a weak game (not terrible). I don't think Indy's defense was terrible, I think SD executed very well and Indy's D wasn't excellent. I mean how many people said the throws that Rivers made were the best they saw from him this year? He had one of his best games and he and SD deserve that credit. Even the pick on Kenton Keith's terrible attempt at a reception was a heck of a one armed pick from a linemanMaybe this falls into your excuse category (and I am not an Indy fan), but losing one of your top 2 defensive players and your best WR does have an impact on your team and the game still came down to the last play (granted some ref calls helped Indy a lot)33-48 for 402 with 3 TD's and 2 picks (one of which was not his fault and could have been a TD making it 4 TD's and 1 pick) is a pretty solid day. Even the 4th down pass to Clark was a good but Clark missed it (BTW, someone mentioned Clark being such a good TE and I don't think he that good - he is competent, but he drops far too many passes to be all pro IMO)

 

[Liquid Tension]

There are plenty of people who go out of their way to try to put the blame on Peyton every time the Colts lose a game, but there seem to be just as many people who practically break their backs making excuses for him, too. I think everyone can agree that the Colts' defense was the reason that this team lost last weekend. However, when a team has that big of a letdown you simply cannot let the QB off the hook. The throw that Cromartie picked off and took back for a TD (that was called back) was a terrible throw.

I cant believe how many people have given Manning a pass because both interceptions were tipped. Wayne was LUCKY (or unlucky depending on your perspective) to get a hand on that pass. It was very high and WAY behind Wayne. As Lust says, it was a terrible throw.

I agree the pass to Wayne was a bad one, but the one to Keith was right in both of his hands and in in stride, that was all on Keith.

 

[PsychoMan]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

Well, let's see, Harrison only had 1 of Peyton's 31 TDs, and 247 of his 4040 yards...In the 5 games Harrison played in, Manning's line was:109 of 165 for 1225 yards and 9 TDsIn the 11 games without Harrison, Mannign line was:228 of 350 for 2815 yards and 22 TDsIf Harrison were the difference maker, you would expect that the 5 games Harrison played in would make up a greater than 32% amount of his stats. Yet, in the games Harrison missed, Manning actually put up higher numbers.With Harrison:1.8 TDs per game245 yards per gameWithout Harrison:2 TDs per game256 yards per gameA slight improvement, which is impressive when you consider the guys filling in for Harrison were a rookie and a practice squad guy for the most part.

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

 

[PMENFAN]

Anyone who is putting the majority of the blame for the loss to the Chargers on Manning's shoulders doesn't understand football. It really is that simple.

It really is that simple. Manning played a great game. Are these people really football fans?

No, just people with an agenda. The pick at the goal line was 100% the fault of Kenton Keith...of course losing a game has more to do with defense and special teams as well

And the Pick 6 to Cromartie, which really defined the game, was 100% Manning. It was high and behind Wayne. Manning makes great plays, and is a great QB. He just has shown a propensity, in high profile games (read playoffs) to throw an inordinate quantity of game changing picks. OF course his greatness allows them to still be in games, but if he takes away the bad picks (like 4 one year vs NE) he's probably got at least one more ring, and is clearly the best QB ever. At this point, he's at least in the discussion, even with this propensity, because of his ability to to bounce back.

 

[Brasco]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

Well, let's see, Harrison only had 1 of Peyton's 31 TDs, and 247 of his 4040 yards...In the 5 games Harrison played in, Manning's line was:109 of 165 for 1225 yards and 9 TDsIn the 11 games without Harrison, Mannign line was:228 of 350 for 2815 yards and 22 TDsIf Harrison were the difference maker, you would expect that the 5 games Harrison played in would make up a greater than 32% amount of his stats. Yet, in the games Harrison missed, Manning actually put up higher numbers.With Harrison:1.8 TDs per game245 yards per gameWithout Harrison:2 TDs per game256 yards per gameA slight improvement, which is impressive when you consider the guys filling in for Harrison were a rookie and a practice squad guy for the most part.

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

Well the loss of Harrison didn't make the offense overall better:Offense w/ Harrison:32 ppgOffense w/out Harrison:26 ppgThe guy is a freaking HOF'r, can we stop diminishing how great a player he is? Not to mention he was 35 years old and in his 12th season this year.

 

[bostonfred]

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

How hard would it be to make Wayne and Clark and Addai look like good receivers? I'm not debating whether they put up better numbers with Manning than they would with Brad Johnson. I'm just saying that you can't act like Manning was stuck with below average targets this year when he had a receiving corps that was better than the majority of the league.

 

[IndyHavoc]

As average as Brady's WR's were, I still think guys like Branch and Givens are a significant upgrade on 3rd stringers like Moorehead and Thorpe. Thorpe had never had a reception in the NFL before.Give Peyton, oh I don't know, Reggie Brown and Chris Chambers and he'd still make the playoffs.

Give Peyton Branch, Troy Brown, David Patten, is hea) winning 3 SB's2. winning anything significant3. going to any pro bowls?i'd answer NO to all three...Manning proved yesterday that he is simply NOT on the same level as Brady, or Favre, or Young, Elway, et al...he's good, a Hall of Famer, but at least in my opinion, he's a notch below those others..

Give Manning the NE Defense during that time frame & I might answer yes to 2 if not all 3.

No, wait...GREAT posting. I think people really just put blinders on to how good that D was in their prime. Brushi, Seymour, McGinnest (sp?), Vrabel, Washington, etc etc. The Pats were nickel and dime on O, and fully loaded with superstars on D. The Colts were the exact opposite, I think we all know how that worked out.

 

[Bri]

And the Pick 6 to Cromartie, which really defined the game, was 100% Manning. It was high and behind Wayne. Manning makes great plays, and is a great QB. He just has shown a propensity, in high profile games (read playoffs) to throw an inordinate quantity of game changing picks. OF course his greatness allows them to still be in games, but if he takes away the bad picks (like 4 one year vs NE) he's probably got at least one more ring, and is clearly the best QB ever. At this point, he's at least in the discussion, even with this propensity, because of his ability to to bounce back.

Brady recently and Simms years ago had near perfect games. I consider that exceptional and quite far from the norm. I don't think Peyton had an unusually bad game. Without looking it up, I'm confident Favre, Montana, and Marino all won playoff games where they threw an INT. I don't think this one is on Manning 100%. I genuinely felt like "who's he gonna throw to" when Wayne sat a extremely key play. Also felt like everyone in the world probably guessed Clark including, obviously, the Chargers. I doubt Dungy expected he'd need experience with the 2nd and 3rd team WRs. Not sure if Moore called a good play there. I didn't feel like Addai took any pressure off of him all game and I put that on him and the OL.I had been a "can't win the big game" guy years ago but...I don't think this one is on Peyton.

 

[switz]

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

How hard would it be to make Wayne and Clark and Addai look like good receivers? I'm not debating whether they put up better numbers with Manning than they would with Brad Johnson. I'm just saying that you can't act like Manning was stuck with below average targets this year when he had a receiving corps that was better than the majority of the league.

Clark is not a great receiver, for goodness sake, he's more of an H-Back than a TE even. He's a HUGE dropoff from Dilger, and yet you see what Dilger did when he left Indy.Addai, weren't you one of the guys before this season saying he wasn't all that talented? Now you want to say he's so talented he makes things easier for Manning? So you think Wayne/Aromashodu is better than Moss/Welker, or CJ/Housh, or Fitz/Boldin, or Ward/Holmes, or Owens/Crayton... etc? Come on, let's get a little perspective.

 

[switz]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

Well, let's see, Harrison only had 1 of Peyton's 31 TDs, and 247 of his 4040 yards...In the 5 games Harrison played in, Manning's line was:

109 of 165 for 1225 yards and 9 TDs

In the 11 games without Harrison, Mannign line was:

228 of 350 for 2815 yards and 22 TDs

If Harrison were the difference maker, you would expect that the 5 games Harrison played in would make up a greater than 32% amount of his stats. Yet, in the games Harrison missed, Manning actually put up higher numbers.

With Harrison:

1.8 TDs per game

245 yards per game

Without Harrison:

2 TDs per game

256 yards per game

A slight improvement, which is impressive when you consider the guys filling in for Harrison were a rookie and a practice squad guy for the most part.

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

Well the loss of Harrison didn't make the offense overall better:Offense w/ Harrison:

32 ppg

Offense w/out Harrison:

26 ppg

The guy is a freaking HOF'r, can we stop diminishing how great a player he is? Not to mention he was 35 years old and in his 12th season this year.

You don't think Addai's injury had anything to do with that? The ]passing offense improved...

 

[bostonfred]

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

How hard would it be to make Wayne and Clark and Addai look like good receivers? I'm not debating whether they put up better numbers with Manning than they would with Brad Johnson. I'm just saying that you can't act like Manning was stuck with below average targets this year when he had a receiving corps that was better than the majority of the league.

Clark is not a great receiver, for goodness sake, he's more of an H-Back than a TE even. He's a HUGE dropoff from Dilger, and yet you see what Dilger did when he left Indy.Addai, weren't you one of the guys before this season saying he wasn't all that talented? Now you want to say he's so talented he makes things easier for Manning?

So you think Wayne/Aromashodu is better than Moss/Welker, or CJ/Housh, or Fitz/Boldin, or Ward/Holmes, or Owens/Crayton... etc? Come on, let's get a little perspective.

Actually, yes, I do think that Wayne/Clark/Addai/Gonzalez is better than the Pittsburgh receiving corps. But unless you have 11 other examples of receiving groups you think are better than Wayne/Clark/Addai/Gonzalez, that doesn't address my comment at all. And you've got to be kidding if you're seriously saying that Clark isn't a great receiving option for Manning. How does he compare to, say, Kelley Washington?

 

[Evilgrin 72]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

At the time I posted this, Manning had a 16/10 TD/INT ratio, which is very subpar for him. His final numbers were not too bad at all, but as I said above, Roethlisberger clearly had the better year (the 2nd Q vs. Jacksonville notwithstanding.) Manning picked it up in the second half of the season as Anthony Gonzalez came on, but that isn't surprising. Gonzalez is a rookie and needed time to get comfortable with the offense and the speed of the pro game. Also, Manning's QB rating was his lowest since 2002 and his YPA the lowest since 2003.Breaking down this season into games Harrison played vs. games he didn't play is irrelevant because in the games Harrison did play, he wasn't the Marvin Harrison of old. He had a nice day in the season opener, but from that point on, he was really nothing more than an intermediate threat. I think age finally caught up to him. I'm not saying Manning isn't a great player and a sure-fire HOFer, but he certainly does look more pedestrian when he doesn't have multiple lethal targets to throw to.

 

[Brasco]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

Well, let's see, Harrison only had 1 of Peyton's 31 TDs, and 247 of his 4040 yards...In the 5 games Harrison played in, Manning's line was:

109 of 165 for 1225 yards and 9 TDs

In the 11 games without Harrison, Mannign line was:

228 of 350 for 2815 yards and 22 TDs

If Harrison were the difference maker, you would expect that the 5 games Harrison played in would make up a greater than 32% amount of his stats. Yet, in the games Harrison missed, Manning actually put up higher numbers.

With Harrison:

1.8 TDs per game

245 yards per game

Without Harrison:

2 TDs per game

256 yards per game

A slight improvement, which is impressive when you consider the guys filling in for Harrison were a rookie and a practice squad guy for the most part.

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

Well the loss of Harrison didn't make the offense overall better:Offense w/ Harrison:

32 ppg

Offense w/out Harrison:

26 ppg

The guy is a freaking HOF'r, can we stop diminishing how great a player he is? Not to mention he was 35 years old and in his 12th season this year.

You don't think Addai's injury had anything to do with that? The ]passing offense improved...

Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but Addai played 15 games this year? What does his injury have to do with the above?"Passing offense improved" is subjective at best.

Manning's yardage/gm and td/gm #'s improved as you pointed out, but I'd take a 9/2 TD/Int ratio in 5 games w/ Harrison over a 21/12 TD/Int ratio in 11 games w/out him any day. Those INT per game #'s went way up when Harrison wasn't in the lineup. Manning's "quantity" of #'s didn't change, but his "quality" sure did. Losing a HOF wr to a lineup is going to do that.

 

[switz]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

At the time I posted this, Manning had a 16/10 TD/INT ratio, which is very subpar for him. His final numbers were not too bad at all, but as I said above, Roethlisberger clearly had the better year (the 2nd Q vs. Jacksonville notwithstanding.)

A little bias clouding your perspective? - see below

Manning picked it up in the second half of the season as Anthony Gonzalez came on, but that isn't surprising. Gonzalez is a rookie and needed time to get comfortable with the offense and the speed of the pro game. Also, Manning's QB rating was his lowest since 2002 and his YPA the lowest since 2003.

Yeah, Gonzales really came on and that made Manning so much better -sarcasm- Of the 12 games after the BYE, Gonzales saw the ball in all of 7 games, in only 3 of those did he see more than 2 receptions.Interestingly Manning had Harrison in '02, didn't he? In fact Manning's rating was higher than ANY year 2002 and prior. His YPA was down 0.05 (7.89 last seson, 7.84 this season) from last season, not exactly a HUGE dropoff.

Breaking down this season into games Harrison played vs. games he didn't play is irrelevant because in the games Harrison did play, he wasn't the Marvin Harrison of old. He had a nice day in the season opener, but from that point on, he was really nothing more than an intermediate threat. I think age finally caught up to him.

As for Harrison/age/etc. you can't argue he dropped off, then argue that his play made Peyton better. If he wasn't playing well, how did losing him hurt Manning? But statistics indicate it didn't hurt Manning.Manning finished:

#4 overall in passing TDs (Roethlisberger finished #3)

#3 in Yards per attempt (tied w/ Favre & Roethlisberger)

#4 in passer rating (Roethlisberger was #2)

#6 in completion % (Roethlisberger was #7)

#7 in yards (Roethlisberger was #14)

Hardly pedestrian, and it's hard to say Roethlisberger had a better season (+1 TD, -3INT, -886 yards, -3 WINs).

 

[switz]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

Well, let's see, Harrison only had 1 of Peyton's 31 TDs, and 247 of his 4040 yards...In the 5 games Harrison played in, Manning's line was:

109 of 165 for 1225 yards and 9 TDs

In the 11 games without Harrison, Mannign line was:

228 of 350 for 2815 yards and 22 TDs

If Harrison were the difference maker, you would expect that the 5 games Harrison played in would make up a greater than 32% amount of his stats. Yet, in the games Harrison missed, Manning actually put up higher numbers.

With Harrison:

1.8 TDs per game

245 yards per game

Without Harrison:

2 TDs per game

256 yards per game

A slight improvement, which is impressive when you consider the guys filling in for Harrison were a rookie and a practice squad guy for the most part.

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

Well the loss of Harrison didn't make the offense overall better:Offense w/ Harrison:

32 ppg

Offense w/out Harrison:

26 ppg

The guy is a freaking HOF'r, can we stop diminishing how great a player he is? Not to mention he was 35 years old and in his 12th season this year.

You don't think Addai's injury had anything to do with that? The passing offense improved...

Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but Addai played 15 games this year? What does his injury have to do with the above?

Addai played injured in numerous games, and came out of numerous games. Yes the running game suffered when he left the game.

"Passing offense improved" is subjective at best.

Manning's yardage/gm and td/gm #'s improved as you pointed out, but I'd take a 9/2 TD/Int ratio in 5 games w/ Harrison over a 21/12 TD/Int ratio in 11 games w/out him any day. Those INT per game #'s went way up when Harrison wasn't in the lineup. Manning's "quantity" of #'s didn't change, but his "quality" sure did. Losing a HOF wr to a lineup is going to do that.

Yes the INTs went up, but that is the only stat that was worse when Harrison was out. Overall the numbers improved when Harrison was out. And the passing TDs went up, even if overall TDs for the team went down. It's the rushing TDs/game that went down, and much of that had to do with Addai's being injured.I think that's pretty obvious to anyone who watched the Colts without an agenda.

 

[phthalatemagic]

Anyone who is putting the majority of the blame for the loss to the Chargers on Manning's shoulders doesn't understand football. It really is that simple.

It really is that simple. Manning played a great game. Are these people really football fans?

No, just people with an agenda. The pick at the goal line was 100% the fault of Kenton Keith...of course losing a game has more to do with defense and special teams as well

I don't think they have an agenda. They are just new football fans, freshly minted in the year 2001. Ask yourself, if you only watched football for 6 years, what would you know? Not much.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Anyone who is putting the majority of the blame for the loss to the Chargers on Manning's shoulders doesn't understand football. It really is that simple.

It really is that simple. Manning played a great game. Are these people really football fans?

No, just people with an agenda. The pick at the goal line was 100% the fault of Kenton Keith...of course losing a game has more to do with defense and special teams as well

And the Pick 6 to Cromartie, which really defined the game, was 100% Manning. It was high and behind Wayne. Manning makes great plays, and is a great QB. He just has shown a propensity, in high profile games (read playoffs) to throw an inordinate quantity of game changing picks. OF course his greatness allows them to still be in games, but if he takes away the bad picks (like 4 one year vs NE) he's probably got at least one more ring, and is clearly the best QB ever. At this point, he's at least in the discussion, even with this propensity, because of his ability to to bounce back.

You think Manning is the greatest QB ever, yet you think he is a choker (propensity to throw a lot of picks in big games and think the pick to Cromartie was THE play to lose the game) I am

 

[Brasco]

I think we seriously need to stop and think about how Marvin Harrison may have been a career-maker for Manning just as much as the other way around (which is how it's normally perceived.) With Harrison missing his first significant time ever, Manning's play has really fallen off. I'd venture to say right now that Roethlisberger is playing better football than Manning and deserves the second Pro Bowl berth (Brady is on another planet right now) in the AFC.

Hmmm... 31 TDs, 4,040 yards.. really fallen off?

I wonder how Manning's per-game stats when Harrison didn't play would compare to the games he did play ...

Well, let's see, Harrison only had 1 of Peyton's 31 TDs, and 247 of his 4040 yards...In the 5 games Harrison played in, Manning's line was:

109 of 165 for 1225 yards and 9 TDs

In the 11 games without Harrison, Mannign line was:

228 of 350 for 2815 yards and 22 TDs

If Harrison were the difference maker, you would expect that the 5 games Harrison played in would make up a greater than 32% amount of his stats. Yet, in the games Harrison missed, Manning actually put up higher numbers.

With Harrison:

1.8 TDs per game

245 yards per game

Without Harrison:

2 TDs per game

256 yards per game

A slight improvement, which is impressive when you consider the guys filling in for Harrison were a rookie and a practice squad guy for the most part.

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

Well the loss of Harrison didn't make the offense overall better:Offense w/ Harrison:

32 ppg

Offense w/out Harrison:

26 ppg

The guy is a freaking HOF'r, can we stop diminishing how great a player he is? Not to mention he was 35 years old and in his 12th season this year.

You don't think Addai's injury had anything to do with that? The passing offense improved...

Sorry, maybe I'm misunderstanding you, but Addai played 15 games this year? What does his injury have to do with the above?

Addai played injured in numerous games, and came out of numerous games. Yes the running game suffered when he left the game.

"Passing offense improved" is subjective at best.

Manning's yardage/gm and td/gm #'s improved as you pointed out, but I'd take a 9/2 TD/Int ratio in 5 games w/ Harrison over a 21/12 TD/Int ratio in 11 games w/out him any day. Those INT per game #'s went way up when Harrison wasn't in the lineup. Manning's "quantity" of #'s didn't change, but his "quality" sure did. Losing a HOF wr to a lineup is going to do that.

Yes the INTs went up, but that is the only stat that was worse when Harrison was out. Overall the numbers improved when Harrison was out. And the passing TDs went up, even if overall TDs for the team went down. It's the rushing TDs/game that went down, and much of that had to do with Addai's being injured.I think that's pretty obvious to anyone who watched the Colts without an agenda.

Hold on, you've been talking up how important a stat Yds/attempt are in every one of these threads, now you are going to ignore it? W/ Harrison: Manning's Y/A was 8.03

w/out harrison: 7.75

Of course the running game was less effective after Harrison went out. You've got one less weapon on an offense to worry about. Addai became more of a focal point by the defense w/out Harrison (you've said yourself that the wrs after Harrison were pedestrian, so why would defenses worry about them?). When you are turning the ball over more, that means the other team has the ball more. It is much tougher to score when the other team has the ball. Thus, less points per game.

To continue to argue that the Colts offense was better or even as good after Harrison got hurt is ridiculous. Methinks you are pointing the "agenda finger" at the wrong person.

Manning is a great qb on his own merits (I've never nor will I ever argue that he isn't) and it is a testament to his talent that the offense didn't drop off more while missing a HOF wr. However, the Indy offense was not as good when Harrison went down.

 

[Liquid Tension]

And the Pick 6 to Cromartie, which really defined the game, was 100% Manning. It was high and behind Wayne. Manning makes great plays, and is a great QB. He just has shown a propensity, in high profile games (read playoffs) to throw an inordinate quantity of game changing picks. OF course his greatness allows them to still be in games, but if he takes away the bad picks (like 4 one year vs NE) he's probably got at least one more ring, and is clearly the best QB ever. At this point, he's at least in the discussion, even with this propensity, because of his ability to to bounce back.

Brady recently and Simms years ago had near perfect games. I consider that exceptional and quite far from the norm. I don't think Peyton had an unusually bad game. Without looking it up, I'm confident Favre, Montana, and Marino all won playoff games where they threw an INT. I don't think this one is on Manning 100%. I genuinely felt like "who's he gonna throw to" when Wayne sat a extremely key play. Also felt like everyone in the world probably guessed Clark including, obviously, the Chargers. I doubt Dungy expected he'd need experience with the 2nd and 3rd team WRs. Not sure if Moore called a good play there. I didn't feel like Addai took any pressure off of him all game and I put that on him and the OL.I had been a "can't win the big game" guy years ago but...I don't think this one is on Peyton.

I think Manning had a very good game...not average or weak, but a VERY good game. Even with the defense playing poor, if Kenton Keith doesn't screw up and Harrison doesn't screw up Indy wins the game. On top of that the big pass at the end of the game was right in Clarks hands and he dropped it.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

How hard would it be to make Wayne and Clark and Addai look like good receivers? I'm not debating whether they put up better numbers with Manning than they would with Brad Johnson. I'm just saying that you can't act like Manning was stuck with below average targets this year when he had a receiving corps that was better than the majority of the league.

Clark is not a great receiver, for goodness sake, he's more of an H-Back than a TE even. He's a HUGE dropoff from Dilger, and yet you see what Dilger did when he left Indy.Addai, weren't you one of the guys before this season saying he wasn't all that talented? Now you want to say he's so talented he makes things easier for Manning?

So you think Wayne/Aromashodu is better than Moss/Welker, or CJ/Housh, or Fitz/Boldin, or Ward/Holmes, or Owens/Crayton... etc? Come on, let's get a little perspective.

Actually, yes, I do think that Wayne/Clark/Addai/Gonzalez is better than the Pittsburgh receiving corps. But unless you have 11 other examples of receiving groups you think are better than Wayne/Clark/Addai/Gonzalez, that doesn't address my comment at all. And you've got to be kidding if you're seriously saying that Clark isn't a great receiving option for Manning. How does he compare to, say, Kelley Washington?

Clark is not a "great" receiving option. He is a good option at best

 

[switz]

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

How hard would it be to make Wayne and Clark and Addai look like good receivers? I'm not debating whether they put up better numbers with Manning than they would with Brad Johnson. I'm just saying that you can't act like Manning was stuck with below average targets this year when he had a receiving corps that was better than the majority of the league.

Clark is not a great receiver, for goodness sake, he's more of an H-Back than a TE even. He's a HUGE dropoff from Dilger, and yet you see what Dilger did when he left Indy.Addai, weren't you one of the guys before this season saying he wasn't all that talented? Now you want to say he's so talented he makes things easier for Manning?

So you think Wayne/Aromashodu is better than Moss/Welker, or CJ/Housh, or Fitz/Boldin, or Ward/Holmes, or Owens/Crayton... etc? Come on, let's get a little perspective.

Actually, yes, I do think that Wayne/Clark/Addai/Gonzalez is better than the Pittsburgh receiving corps. But unless you have 11 other examples of receiving groups you think are better than Wayne/Clark/Addai/Gonzalez, that doesn't address my comment at all. And you've got to be kidding if you're seriously saying that Clark isn't a great receiving option for Manning. How does he compare to, say, Kelley Washington?

Clark is not a "great" receiving option. He is a good option at best

Don't bother - all they have to argue against Manning is that his WRs made him.

 

[Liquid Tension]

Thank you, Switz. Got the stats and found exactly what I expected to see. Manning makes his receivers great, PERIOD.

How hard would it be to make Wayne and Clark and Addai look like good receivers? I'm not debating whether they put up better numbers with Manning than they would with Brad Johnson. I'm just saying that you can't act like Manning was stuck with below average targets this year when he had a receiving corps that was better than the majority of the league.

Clark is not a great receiver, for goodness sake, he's more of an H-Back than a TE even. He's a HUGE dropoff from Dilger, and yet you see what Dilger did when he left Indy.Addai, weren't you one of the guys before this season saying he wasn't all that talented? Now you want to say he's so talented he makes things easier for Manning?

So you think Wayne/Aromashodu is better than Moss/Welker, or CJ/Housh, or Fitz/Boldin, or Ward/Holmes, or Owens/Crayton... etc? Come on, let's get a little perspective.

Actually, yes, I do think that Wayne/Clark/Addai/Gonzalez is better than the Pittsburgh receiving corps. But unless you have 11 other examples of receiving groups you think are better than Wayne/Clark/Addai/Gonzalez, that doesn't address my comment at all. And you've got to be kidding if you're seriously saying that Clark isn't a great receiving option for Manning. How does he compare to, say, Kelley Washington?

Clark is not a "great" receiving option. He is a good option at best

Don't bother - all they have to argue against Manning is that his WRs made him.

You would think a great option would catch a ball in his hands with the playoffs on the line...