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Packers at Seahawks (1 Viewer)

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.

NFL fail. :thumbdown:

 
Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.

If the above statement is accurate, then a simultaneous catch did not occurr according to the bolded section.

 
'Hipple said:
'SacramentoBob said:
'snogger said:
'Pipes said:
'DoubleG said:
'Matt Sullivan said:
'Greg Russell said:
'Greg Russell said:
The furor over this is very reminiscent of what we had last year with the Vincent Brown non-TD against the Raiders.
Yes, quoting myself. Similar, but different too.Similar in that both calls were tough to tell viewing it live. And both could tell right call from a replay. Different in that rules allowed Brown touchdown to be reviewed and overturned. This one, refs not allowed by rules to review the part that needed overturning.
Still disagree. You might not be able to review joint possession, but you HAVE to review whether Tate ever possessed the ball at all.
You're forgetting something. To REVERSE the call on the field (which was TD) there has to be irrefutable evidence that Tate did NOT, at any point, posess the ball. Good luck with that.
Why? It's pretty clear by the replays the only thing Tate possessed was Jennings' right arm.
:shrug: Doesn't matter what the replay showed on a "simultaneous catch".. All the replay officials could rule was whether it was a completed pass or an incomplete pass.. Since the ball never hit the ground it is a completed pass.
Pretty sure catching the ball is part of a complete pass.
The ball was clearly caught. That was the only thing they could look at on review under NFL replay doctrine, and its an easy call since the ball at o point hit the ground.
Update?
 
'Hipple said:
'SacramentoBob said:
'snogger said:
'Pipes said:
'DoubleG said:
'Matt Sullivan said:
'Greg Russell said:
'Greg Russell said:
The furor over this is very reminiscent of what we had last year with the Vincent Brown non-TD against the Raiders.
Yes, quoting myself. Similar, but different too.Similar in that both calls were tough to tell viewing it live. And both could tell right call from a replay. Different in that rules allowed Brown touchdown to be reviewed and overturned. This one, refs not allowed by rules to review the part that needed overturning.
Still disagree. You might not be able to review joint possession, but you HAVE to review whether Tate ever possessed the ball at all.
You're forgetting something. To REVERSE the call on the field (which was TD) there has to be irrefutable evidence that Tate did NOT, at any point, posess the ball. Good luck with that.
Why? It's pretty clear by the replays the only thing Tate possessed was Jennings' right arm.
:shrug: Doesn't matter what the replay showed on a "simultaneous catch".. All the replay officials could rule was whether it was a completed pass or an incomplete pass.. Since the ball never hit the ground it is a completed pass.
Pretty sure catching the ball is part of a complete pass.
The ball was clearly caught. That was the only thing they could look at on review under NFL replay doctrine, and its an easy call since the ball at o point hit the ground.
Update?
Form the its better to be lucky that good dept. Unreal the number of packer backers gloating over being right because of a nuanced role that they never bothered to look up/knew existed prior to one hour ago. :lmao:
 
'Greg Russell said:
Has anyone come out and definitively said that this kind of play can't be reviewed? I suppose it might not be reviewable, but I would find that very surprising if that was so.Edit: NEvermind, I see Gerry Austin said it's not reviewable.
In the end zone, possession is reviewable.
Possession is reviewable everywhere. Here we have a specific NFL rule that states that is not reviewable in the case of simultaneous possession. Other than the NFL announcing that it is reviewable in the end zone, without citing any basis for that apartment exception to its published casebook, I have yet to see a reason why that is true.
 
'Hipple said:
'SacramentoBob said:
'snogger said:
'Pipes said:
'DoubleG said:
'Matt Sullivan said:
'Greg Russell said:
'Greg Russell said:
The furor over this is very reminiscent of what we had last year with the Vincent Brown non-TD against the Raiders.
Yes, quoting myself. Similar, but different too.Similar in that both calls were tough to tell viewing it live. And both could tell right call from a replay. Different in that rules allowed Brown touchdown to be reviewed and overturned. This one, refs not allowed by rules to review the part that needed overturning.
Still disagree. You might not be able to review joint possession, but you HAVE to review whether Tate ever possessed the ball at all.
You're forgetting something. To REVERSE the call on the field (which was TD) there has to be irrefutable evidence that Tate did NOT, at any point, posess the ball. Good luck with that.
Why? It's pretty clear by the replays the only thing Tate possessed was Jennings' right arm.
:shrug: Doesn't matter what the replay showed on a "simultaneous catch".. All the replay officials could rule was whether it was a completed pass or an incomplete pass.. Since the ball never hit the ground it is a completed pass.
Pretty sure catching the ball is part of a complete pass.
The ball was clearly caught. That was the only thing they could look at on review under NFL replay doctrine, and its an easy call since the ball at o point hit the ground.
Update?
Form the its better to be lucky that good dept. Unreal the number of packer backers gloating over being right because of a nuanced role that they never bothered to look up/knew existed prior to one hour ago. :lmao:
It not luck...now in 2012 all touchdowns are reviewed. I even quoted a small snipet from the rulebook and was dismissed as quoting an anonymous source. I'm guessing most people gloating (all 3 of them in this thread) probably aren't Packer fans. We're still pissed about the Packers being completely hosed last night. Winning some arguement over some random internet person doesn't make us feel better about the Packers loss.
 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
'Hipple said:
'SacramentoBob said:
'snogger said:
'Pipes said:
'DoubleG said:
'Matt Sullivan said:
'Greg Russell said:
'Greg Russell said:
The furor over this is very reminiscent of what we had last year with the Vincent Brown non-TD against the Raiders.
Yes, quoting myself. Similar, but different too.Similar in that both calls were tough to tell viewing it live. And both could tell right call from a replay. Different in that rules allowed Brown touchdown to be reviewed and overturned. This one, refs not allowed by rules to review the part that needed overturning.
Still disagree. You might not be able to review joint possession, but you HAVE to review whether Tate ever possessed the ball at all.
You're forgetting something. To REVERSE the call on the field (which was TD) there has to be irrefutable evidence that Tate did NOT, at any point, posess the ball. Good luck with that.
Why? It's pretty clear by the replays the only thing Tate possessed was Jennings' right arm.
:shrug: Doesn't matter what the replay showed on a "simultaneous catch".. All the replay officials could rule was whether it was a completed pass or an incomplete pass.. Since the ball never hit the ground it is a completed pass.
Pretty sure catching the ball is part of a complete pass.
The ball was clearly caught. That was the only thing they could look at on review under NFL replay doctrine, and its an easy call since the ball at o point hit the ground.
Update?
Form the its better to be lucky that good dept. Unreal the number of packer backers gloating over being right because of a nuanced role that they never bothered to look up/knew existed prior to one hour ago. :lmao:
I think it has more to do with your attitude and bashing Packer fans earlier...now it turns out you were wrong.
 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
Why would it likely have been that?GB's offense was moving the ball well in the 2nd half.

If they punt there, they pin Seattle deep and had been controlling them on defense.

They get the ball back with good field position...why do you assume they could not again move into at least FG range there?

You can't assume that...and can't assume GB would have done nothing else the rest of the game if forced to punt there.

The call at the end is worse because if the right call is made, the game is over. We know exactly what would happen with that call.

You don't know what would happen on the other PI call.

And lets quit acting as if it was the worst PI call ever.

Chancellor was there a tiny tiny tiny bit early in a bang bang play. It was a bad PI call and should be what is allowed by the defense...but hardly as bad as other PI calls or missed PI calls have been (Jennings getting thrown down on the sideline earlier in the drive...Shields getting shoved on the final play...Shields getting called for PI when Rice is all over him the whole time...)

 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
What about the b.s. pass intereference call on Shields? The b.s. roughing the passer call when Wilson was outside the pocket that negated an interception? What about the play where Jennings was completely jacked 30 yards downfield for no reason? Believe me Packer fans are pretty pissed at a number of calls.And yes Seattle got screwed on some calls too. The interference you referenced was bad, They missed another interference on Woodson and I seem to recall a questionable hands to the face that was well away from the play. These refs were terrible the entire game it's just the debacle at the end puts it over the top.

 
The replay official in the booth, since he's the only professional referee, should have temporarily been given the power to overturn field calls, power to review any call and have final say over all calls during the strike.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
The League hid behind language in the rules to justify the result and do damage control. Not surprising.

Bottom line is:

1) Offensive pass inteference should have been called. This much the league admitted. Make the right call and the game is over. It was a blatant offensive PI that placed the defender at an illegal disadvantage and directly impacted the play. Has to be called, period.

2) The play should have been discussed by the two officials on the field. One official, the backjudge with Big 12, Sugar Bowl, and Arena league experience is clearly killing the clock and I have no doubt he was ruling it an interception. He didnt throw his blue bean bag because it was obviously the last play of the game and in the endzone. It's either a TD or the game is over. He was signaling the game is over.

The sidejudge, with High School and JUCO experience comes in and signals a TD. This is mistake #2 by this guy. Not trying to pile on but maybe a guy whose never officiated a game above the JUCO level isnt quite ready to be on Monday Night ####### Football refereeing NFL players in front of tens of millions of people on national TV. Just maybe.

3) The Referee didnt even come over to discuss the call with the two officials before going to the replay booth. This play needs to be discussed by the two officials right there on top of it, and then the R needs to come over and see what they've got, heard what both saw or think they saw, and make a decision. This didnt happen and the wrong decision was made on the field.

4) After replay, the call should have been reversed and corrected. By standing by the upholding of the call, I think the NFL is trying to protect its replay process and the replacement officials by saying that once the ruling was made on the field it has to be indisputable to overturn. Obviously, I think they still should have overturned it but IMO just highlights even more why the call on the field should have been handled correctly.

5) FWIW- I have no doubt that the NFL referees would have gotten the call right. They're not perfect, we have our complaints about all sports officials, but they are MUCH better prepared to make judgement calls AND manage the pace and control of games. PERIOD. Bottom line is they need to be back on the field. NOW!

 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
Why would it likely have been that?GB's offense was moving the ball well in the 2nd half.

If they punt there, they pin Seattle deep and had been controlling them on defense.

They get the ball back with good field position...why do you assume they could not again move into at least FG range there?

You can't assume that...and can't assume GB would have done nothing else the rest of the game if forced to punt there.

The call at the end is worse because if the right call is made, the game is over. We know exactly what would happen with that call.

You don't know what would happen on the other PI call.

And lets quit acting as if it was the worst PI call ever.

Chancellor was there a tiny tiny tiny bit early in a bang bang play. It was a bad PI call and should be what is allowed by the defense...but hardly as bad as other PI calls or missed PI calls have been (Jennings getting thrown down on the sideline earlier in the drive...Shields getting shoved on the final play...Shields getting called for PI when Rice is all over him the whole time...)
Nope. You also can't assume GB would do something with the ball later in the game or that they could stop Seattle. So, by your own definition, you can't assume that GB would've won this game. Just because it's the last call of the game doesn't make it more important than other bad calls during the game that gave unfair advantages to one team.

 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
What about the b.s. pass intereference call on Shields? The b.s. roughing the passer call when Wilson was outside the pocket that negated an interception? What about the play where Jennings was completely jacked 30 yards downfield for no reason? Believe me Packer fans are pretty pissed at a number of calls.And yes Seattle got screwed on some calls too. The interference you referenced was bad, They missed another interference on Woodson and I seem to recall a questionable hands to the face that was well away from the play. These refs were terrible the entire game it's just the debacle at the end puts it over the top.
Roughing the passer wasn't BS. Can't go low on a QB.
 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
Why would it likely have been that?GB's offense was moving the ball well in the 2nd half.

If they punt there, they pin Seattle deep and had been controlling them on defense.

They get the ball back with good field position...why do you assume they could not again move into at least FG range there?

You can't assume that...and can't assume GB would have done nothing else the rest of the game if forced to punt there.

The call at the end is worse because if the right call is made, the game is over. We know exactly what would happen with that call.

You don't know what would happen on the other PI call.

And lets quit acting as if it was the worst PI call ever.

Chancellor was there a tiny tiny tiny bit early in a bang bang play. It was a bad PI call and should be what is allowed by the defense...but hardly as bad as other PI calls or missed PI calls have been (Jennings getting thrown down on the sideline earlier in the drive...Shields getting shoved on the final play...Shields getting called for PI when Rice is all over him the whole time...)
Nope. You also can't assume GB would do something with the ball later in the game or that they could stop Seattle. So, by your own definition, you can't assume that GB would've won this game. Just because it's the last call of the game doesn't make it more important than other bad calls during the game that gave unfair advantages to one team.
Can't assume it...that is true.But that is the point...to say that Seattle would have won without that or that this PI call made it close like that is simply incorrect.

And I think the last play like that does make it more important than other supposed bad calls.

There was no unfair advantage to any team during the course of the game.

 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
What about the b.s. pass intereference call on Shields? The b.s. roughing the passer call when Wilson was outside the pocket that negated an interception? What about the play where Jennings was completely jacked 30 yards downfield for no reason? Believe me Packer fans are pretty pissed at a number of calls.And yes Seattle got screwed on some calls too. The interference you referenced was bad, They missed another interference on Woodson and I seem to recall a questionable hands to the face that was well away from the play. These refs were terrible the entire game it's just the debacle at the end puts it over the top.
Roughing the passer wasn't BS. Can't go low on a QB.
He was out of the pocket and the guy hit him in the thigh...didn't launch and so on.That seemed like a terrible call. Though I can't find in the rules how things do change once a QB is out of the pocket on those.

 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
Why would it likely have been that?GB's offense was moving the ball well in the 2nd half.

If they punt there, they pin Seattle deep and had been controlling them on defense.

They get the ball back with good field position...why do you assume they could not again move into at least FG range there?

You can't assume that...and can't assume GB would have done nothing else the rest of the game if forced to punt there.

The call at the end is worse because if the right call is made, the game is over. We know exactly what would happen with that call.

You don't know what would happen on the other PI call.

And lets quit acting as if it was the worst PI call ever.

Chancellor was there a tiny tiny tiny bit early in a bang bang play. It was a bad PI call and should be what is allowed by the defense...but hardly as bad as other PI calls or missed PI calls have been (Jennings getting thrown down on the sideline earlier in the drive...Shields getting shoved on the final play...Shields getting called for PI when Rice is all over him the whole time...)
Nope. You also can't assume GB would do something with the ball later in the game or that they could stop Seattle. So, by your own definition, you can't assume that GB would've won this game. Just because it's the last call of the game doesn't make it more important than other bad calls during the game that gave unfair advantages to one team.
Can't assume it...that is true.But that is the point...to say that Seattle would have won without that or that this PI call made it close like that is simply incorrect.

And I think the last play like that does make it more important than other supposed bad calls.

There was no unfair advantage to any team during the course of the game.
I'm pretty sure I never said that Seattle would've won. I have said that if they lost then they would say they were just as screwed over by that BS PI call.If that last line is true then there wasn't for the Seahawks on the final play either. Whether it's the final play or in the middle of the game, getting the right call is the most important thing. Because we don't know what will happen if certain plays go a different way, the final play may be a kneel down instead of a Hail Mary. The last play gets more scrutiny because of the finality of the outcome, but it's no more or less important than any call on the final drive, or the go ahead drive of the other team.

 
What about the b.s. pass intereference call on Shields? The b.s. roughing the passer call when Wilson was outside the pocket that negated an interception? What about the play where Jennings was completely jacked 30 yards downfield for no reason? Believe me Packer fans are pretty pissed at a number of calls.And yes Seattle got screwed on some calls too. The interference you referenced was bad, They missed another interference on Woodson and I seem to recall a questionable hands to the face that was well away from the play. These refs were terrible the entire game it's just the debacle at the end puts it over the top.
What about every blown call in favor of the pack? Dont see them complaining openly about that. Seemed like after week 1 the refs were doing everything in there power to not anger Rodgers.This was a terrible call but there was definitely grounds for the call, its very clear that when Jennings has control of the ball Tate has one hand on the ball. Jennings should have batted the ball down.
 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
What about the b.s. pass intereference call on Shields? The b.s. roughing the passer call when Wilson was outside the pocket that negated an interception? What about the play where Jennings was completely jacked 30 yards downfield for no reason? Believe me Packer fans are pretty pissed at a number of calls.And yes Seattle got screwed on some calls too. The interference you referenced was bad, They missed another interference on Woodson and I seem to recall a questionable hands to the face that was well away from the play. These refs were terrible the entire game it's just the debacle at the end puts it over the top.
Roughing the passer wasn't BS. Can't go low on a QB.
He was out of the pocket and the guy hit him in the thigh...didn't launch and so on.That seemed like a terrible call. Though I can't find in the rules how things do change once a QB is out of the pocket on those.
I put this in a different thread but it's worth putting here too.
Roughing the passer

Article 8: Roughing the Passer. Because the act of passing often puts the quarterback (or any other player attempting a pass) in a position where he is particularly vulnerable to injury, special rules against roughing the passer apply. The Referee has principal responsibility for enforcing these rules. Any physical acts against passers during or just after a pass which, in the Referee's judgment, are unwarranted by the circumstances of the play will be called as fouls. The Referee will be guided by the following principles:

<skip to relevant part>

(e) A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him;
I haven't had a chance to see any replays yet, but if Wilson was on the ground and the player ended up hitting him at or below the knee, this is a penalty. This isn't a claim it *was* a penalty, just showing what the circumstances needed to be for it to be a legitimate foul.
 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
What about the b.s. pass intereference call on Shields? The b.s. roughing the passer call when Wilson was outside the pocket that negated an interception? What about the play where Jennings was completely jacked 30 yards downfield for no reason? Believe me Packer fans are pretty pissed at a number of calls.And yes Seattle got screwed on some calls too. The interference you referenced was bad, They missed another interference on Woodson and I seem to recall a questionable hands to the face that was well away from the play. These refs were terrible the entire game it's just the debacle at the end puts it over the top.
Roughing the passer wasn't BS. Can't go low on a QB.
Come on man...so you're saying the defense can't tackle a scrambling QB below the waist? I agree there were bad calls on both sides but don't pretend this wasn't a bad call.
 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
What about the b.s. pass intereference call on Shields? The b.s. roughing the passer call when Wilson was outside the pocket that negated an interception? What about the play where Jennings was completely jacked 30 yards downfield for no reason? Believe me Packer fans are pretty pissed at a number of calls.And yes Seattle got screwed on some calls too. The interference you referenced was bad, They missed another interference on Woodson and I seem to recall a questionable hands to the face that was well away from the play. These refs were terrible the entire game it's just the debacle at the end puts it over the top.
Roughing the passer wasn't BS. Can't go low on a QB.
Come on man...so you're saying the defense can't tackle a scrambling QB below the waist? I agree there were bad calls on both sides but don't pretend this wasn't a bad call.
Per the rules, they can't make a hit below the knee even if the initial contact was above. That doesn't include tackling with the arms/hands--it needs to be a hit with the body of the defender. And because Wilson was in the process of passing the ball it puts him in a protected status. If he were just outside the pocket or scrambling you're right (based on what I'm reading).
 
Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.

If the above statement is accurate, then a simultaneous catch did not occurr according to the bolded section.
You guys are missing the Addendum...Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5, Addendum K states:

It is also a simultaneous catch if one player is spooning the player that actually has the ball clutched to his chest with both arms, clearly in possession of the ball. At the point of the full body spoon they then become one, therefore it's a simultaneous catch.

 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
:goodposting: Hawks D is the best in the league. They beat up Dallas and Green Bay back to back weeks. Offense did enough to keep them in it. Go Hawks...next up...rams.

 
Lost in all of this was a great defensive performance by both teams. I'm really impressed with Seattle's defense...they are legit.

 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
What about the b.s. pass intereference call on Shields? The b.s. roughing the passer call when Wilson was outside the pocket that negated an interception? What about the play where Jennings was completely jacked 30 yards downfield for no reason? Believe me Packer fans are pretty pissed at a number of calls.And yes Seattle got screwed on some calls too. The interference you referenced was bad, They missed another interference on Woodson and I seem to recall a questionable hands to the face that was well away from the play. These refs were terrible the entire game it's just the debacle at the end puts it over the top.
Roughing the passer wasn't BS. Can't go low on a QB.
He was out of the pocket and the guy hit him in the thigh...didn't launch and so on.That seemed like a terrible call. Though I can't find in the rules how things do change once a QB is out of the pocket on those.
I put this in a different thread but it's worth putting here too.
Roughing the passer

Article 8: Roughing the Passer. Because the act of passing often puts the quarterback (or any other player attempting a pass) in a position where he is particularly vulnerable to injury, special rules against roughing the passer apply. The Referee has principal responsibility for enforcing these rules. Any physical acts against passers during or just after a pass which, in the Referee's judgment, are unwarranted by the circumstances of the play will be called as fouls. The Referee will be guided by the following principles:

<skip to relevant part>

(e) A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him;
I haven't had a chance to see any replays yet, but if Wilson was on the ground and the player ended up hitting him at or below the knee, this is a penalty. This isn't a claim it *was* a penalty, just showing what the circumstances needed to be for it to be a legitimate foul.
One more relevant part just below subsection (e)
Note 2: It is not a foul if the defender swipes, wraps, or grabs a passer in the knee area or below it in an attempt to tackle him.
 
While everybody is focused on that last play, don't forget about that PI call on Chancellor way back on page 7 that everyone agreed was a horrible call. That extended the drive that ended up being the go ahead touchdown. Had THAT horrible penalty not been called it likely would have been 7-6 at the end of the game and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

If you're going to accept horrible calls early in the game, you need to accept horrible calls at the end. You can't really choose which bad calls you want to be irate about.
What about the b.s. pass intereference call on Shields? The b.s. roughing the passer call when Wilson was outside the pocket that negated an interception? What about the play where Jennings was completely jacked 30 yards downfield for no reason? Believe me Packer fans are pretty pissed at a number of calls.And yes Seattle got screwed on some calls too. The interference you referenced was bad, They missed another interference on Woodson and I seem to recall a questionable hands to the face that was well away from the play. These refs were terrible the entire game it's just the debacle at the end puts it over the top.
Roughing the passer wasn't BS. Can't go low on a QB.
He was out of the pocket and the guy hit him in the thigh...didn't launch and so on.That seemed like a terrible call. Though I can't find in the rules how things do change once a QB is out of the pocket on those.
I put this in a different thread but it's worth putting here too.
Roughing the passer

Article 8: Roughing the Passer. Because the act of passing often puts the quarterback (or any other player attempting a pass) in a position where he is particularly vulnerable to injury, special rules against roughing the passer apply. The Referee has principal responsibility for enforcing these rules. Any physical acts against passers during or just after a pass which, in the Referee's judgment, are unwarranted by the circumstances of the play will be called as fouls. The Referee will be guided by the following principles:

<skip to relevant part>

(e) A rushing defender is prohibited from forcibly hitting in the knee area or below a passer who has one or both feet on the ground, even if the initial contact is above the knee. It is not a foul if the defender is blocked (or fouled) into the passer and has no opportunity to avoid him;
I haven't had a chance to see any replays yet, but if Wilson was on the ground and the player ended up hitting him at or below the knee, this is a penalty. This isn't a claim it *was* a penalty, just showing what the circumstances needed to be for it to be a legitimate foul.
One more relevant part just below subsection (e)
Note 2: It is not a foul if the defender swipes, wraps, or grabs a passer in the knee area or below it in an attempt to tackle him.
Oh yeah, that certainly is relevant. My apologies for the omission. Again, I haven't had a chance to re-watch the play so I don't have an opinion yet...merely stating the rules for the folks that think that just because he's outside the pocket he can get hit in the knee during (or just after) a pass.
 
Cold Hard Football Facts with an interesting take on the now infamous play...

(The CHFF site has the pictures to go along with their argument)

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/shame-the-angry-mob-golden-tates-touchdown-was-legit/17706/

Shame on the Angry Mob: Golden Tate’s Touchdown Was Legit

Cold, Hard Football Facts for Sep 28, 2012

By Scott Kacsmar

With Captain Comeback, we like to look at the close finishes the NFL provides every week, and also do a good share of proving when the facts are being distorted by battles over semantics.

The much-publicized ending in the Green Bay at Seattle game from Monday Night Football is a classic example of both. It was one of the most exciting finishes ever, and the ending has been spoiled by controversy from the moment it happened as people fight over what the words “control”, “possession”, and “catch” mean in NFL terms.

The ending has hit mainstream news outside of the realm of sports, and many sources – most of which are not even qualified to make the statement – refer to it as the “worst call in NFL history.” That might be true if your knowledge of NFL history starts in 2012.

Enough already. The biggest travesty in the NFL this week comes from all the fans and media that have let a perfect storm of events shape the biggest overreaction ever to a call that was right, and a touchdown that was legitimate.

When you take your emotions out of it, and only study the facts, then there is no denying the replacement referees got the ending right, and the NFL’s statement was correct in upholding the call.

Analyzing the Touchdown

Want the short or long version? You know you are getting the long anyway, but if you need a summary, then here it goes.

The short version: Golden Tate had the first control of the ball, catching it with his left hand, which never loses control of the ball throughout the entire process of the play. His two feet hit the ground to establish possession before M.D. Jennings establishes possession. Tate’s butt hits the ground, and at this point, he still has control, possession and is in the end zone for a good touchdown. Tate pushed off for an uncalled offensive pass interference that would have ended the game, but this is irrelevant when history shows no referee in football will make such a call on a Hail Mary. Seattle’s win is legit.

The long version will now go through the whole catch, and the key is to look at a frame-by-frame analysis.

While slow-motion replays are sexier for TV, you have to take a frame-by-frame approach to get evidence of what really happens. No matter how many replays you watch from whatever angles you find, it is the exact frames at the key moments that will tell you what really happened, and why this is a touchdown.

First, everyone can agree that this was a pass in the end zone, with both players always inbounds, and the ball never hits the ground. That means it has to be either ruled a touchdown or an interception. That is not up for debate by anyone.

Next, we need to define control, possession and a catch, as these have been mixed up quite a bit this week. Possession only occurs when a catch is completed, and having control is a key element of making a catch.

The following is from the NFL’s statement on what defines a catch as stated in Rule 8, Section 1.

“A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

© maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).”

If the player is going to the ground like they were in this play, then control must be maintained throughout the process for the catch to count. That did happen, and all the wrestling for the ball that took place was irrelevant as the touchdown was already good.

The following is the NFL’s rule for a simultaneous catch, as there apparently is no rule for simultaneous possession, which many have tried to talk about for this play.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

“Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.”

Technically, there probably never is a true simultaneous catch in the NFL, as someone will always touch the ball first (size of ball and hands dictate as much), as Tate did here. Hell, this call was probably still way closer than Bret Hart and Lex Luger simultaneously going over the top rope in the 1994 Royal Rumble. Now if you want to talk about a rip-off that you had to pay for…

Step One: Control

Anyways, the very first frame shows the most important element that so many have missed: Golden Tate controls the ball before Jennings.

This video from another analysis does a good job of showing the zoomed-in view, and Tate gets his left hand in between Jennings and makes the one-handed catch before Jennings closes his hands around the ball. Here is a cap from that video.

Hardly the best quality, but you can see Jennings’ helmet and space between his hands and the ball as Tate catches it first. Here are the first four frames to show the point of first contact with the ball (click here for huge image).

In the first frame the ball has yet to arrive. It does in the second, and it is stopped by Tate’s left hand with Jennings yet to touch it. The ball does not even move in the third and fourth frames, as Tate’s hand is holding it up the whole time as Jennings wraps his two hands around it.

Tate controls the ball with his left hand throughout the whole play. He controlled the ball even before Jennings did, because he touched it first as we have already seen. He has control, and you do not need two hands or arms for control. It is ridiculous how people are ignoring the fact that one-handed catches are made all the time.

In the 2010 AFC Divisional playoffs, Antonio Brown had a huge catch on a 3rd and 19 late in the game. He never got two hands on the ball, as you can see in the picture.

Instead, Brown pins the ball to his helmet a la David Tyree, and only keeps his right hand on it as he goes out of bounds on the play. Brown never established possession with both hands or arms, but he had control and was running in bounds before he stepped out. It was a good catch.

In 2006 Reggie Wayne made a great one-handed catch against the Eagles. He went out of bounds, never once put his second hand or arm on the ball, and it was good for 38 yards. The Eagles challenged, but the play was upheld.

Two years later Wayne had the game-winning touchdown to cap a comeback in Houston. Check the 3:14 mark here, and you can see Wayne initially get two hands on the ball while in the air, but quickly has his left hand leave the ball before hitting the ground. With the ball still firmly controlled in only his right hand, Wayne gets down in bounds just in time despite never gaining possession with two hands or arms. Touchdown, Colts.

Do we need more Indianapolis highlights? Also from a prime time game, how about Pierre Garcon’s one-handed grab against Washington in 2010? As Cris Collinsworth notes, the ball just stuck in his hand. Garcon never even had to use his second arm for a good catch.

None of these plays were controversial, a few of them did come in crucial situations, and they were all valid catches.

Some people think Tate moving his right hand off of Jennings for a moment before moving it back for the ball means he lost control. This is not true, as we have seen examples of plays where a player can move their hand off the ball, but it is fine as long as they still maintain control the whole time. Tate always had control with his left hand.

Then there is the fallacy of “having more control”, or the idea that two hands are better than one in this situation. That is not in the rule book, and not how any officials call the play.

If you can control the ball with your one hand and complete the process to the ground, like Tate and countless others before him did, then it is a good catch. Tate always had control with that left hand.

Step Two: Possession

A player in mid-air does not have possession. You must get two feet down.

As gravity brings Tate and Jennings down, Tate hits the ground first with both feet and his left hand on the ball as seen below.

You can see Jennings is still clearly off the ground, meaning he has yet to have possession while Tate already does. If simultaneous possession is even a real thing, then Tate would have beaten Jennings to it, actually negating the simultaneous call.

Tate then wraps his right hand around the ball while still having the left on it, and this also happens before Jennings establishes possession with his two feet on the ground.

Tate eventually parks his butt on the ground still with two hands on the ball, and at that point, it practically happens simultaneously with Jennings finally getting his second foot on the ground, as seen in this picture.

But Tate already has him beat twice: first to control, and now to possession. With both players on the ground and fighting over the ball, the touchdown had already been scored as the requirements for a catch were met in the end zone. Showing that popular image of Jennings trying to rip it away seconds later is irrelevant.

The fact that Jennings had to exert so much effort to even try and rip the ball away also speaks to the grip Tate had on the ball with his left hand. If Jennings was in such obvious possession as some believe, then why would he not have been able to easily get out with the ball?

It is because Tate always had that control with the left hand. A Seattle station (KCPQ) filmed a reverse-end zone angle of the play, and you can see that video here.

Steve Gallo did his own work on the play, and using this reverse angle from KCPQ, he was able to put together this picture.

Tate has his left hand on the ball, and his right forearm on the ball. Jennings’ left hand is actually on Tate and not the ball at this point.

In the end, expecting any referee to see a clear interception on this play is foolish. It was so close, and it takes a frame-by-frame analysis to even see who actually had control first.

The key part to the whole play is Tate making that initial contact with the left hand, controlling the ball in it throughout the whole process of going to the ground. He established possession before Jennings as well, and once he hit that ground with his ####, this thing was a good touchdown.

There is no way you could review this play and determine it was not a catch, so the correct ruling on the field of touchdown stood. Had the initial ruling been an interception, then they would have had to go to the frame-by-frame to reach the same conclusion here, which does not seem like something that’s actually used if you go by what we see on TV.

But it provides the undeniable evidence you need to see this was a touchdown thanks to that left hand of Tate.

Offensive Pass Interference

Having justified the touchdown catch, it is blatantly obvious that Tate pushed off for an offensive pass interference that was not called. The NFL admitted this one, and that call would have won the game for Green Bay right there.

But, there is an unwritten rule that you do not call pass interference on a Hail Mary at any level of football, whether you are a real ref or a replacement. It just does not happen.

NFL Network research said the last 87 times a team has tried a Hail Mary at the end of the game, not a single one of them were flagged for offensive pass interference. The Browns (go figure) were penalized for defensive pass interference in 2009, but never the offense.

Even calling DPI is frowned upon. When the Jaguars pulled off the Hail Mary over Houston in 2010, you can clearly see Mike Sims-Walker is knocked down with the ball in the air, and there was no flag for DPI.

In the end, that’s really how it should be. If you were to call these plays straight up, you would have a lot of offsetting fouls as the sea of bodies initiate a lot of contact on these plays. One could easily argue Seattle’s other receiver in the play was interfered with.

Hoping for offensive pass interference on a Hail Mary is like hoping for the president to bring all the troops home at once. It will not happen. Forget about it.

Green Bay should have knocked the ball down as there was no trailing receiver a la Detroit the day before. However, that would have been pretty hard given how good of a grip Golden Tate got on that ball.

Hopefully history will acknowledge his effort better than the reaction we have seen this week.

The Perfect Storm for Overreaction

After clear evidence and support from the NFL for why the play was ruled a touchdown, why is there so much complaining over the call? The circumstances of the moment created a perfect storm for a record amount of mass whining.

1. The game was in prime time.

This was not your run-of-the-mill 1 p.m. game with FOX’s fifth-best announcing crew getting lost in the early-game shuffle. Millions of people were able to watch the only game on TV. This was not the Detroit at Chicago game from Week 1 in 2010 with the Calvin Johnson play. More people watched this live.

2. The Green Bay Packers are one of the league’s flagship franchises and they were the losing team.

Not to pick on some of the usual suspects, but if this was a game where St. Louis or Jacksonville lost, then the outcry would not be anywhere near as loud or sustained. But because it was the Packers, 15-1 last year, league MVP at quarterback, owned by the people, that all strengthened the buzz.

Combining the first two factors, look at the 2001 “Bottle-gate” game between Jacksonville and Cleveland (yes, Browns involved again). After spiking the ball, the replay officials went back and reviewed the previous fourth-down play by the Browns, and overturned the call to an incompletion even though another play had been run.

Allegedly the ref was buzzed before the spike to review it, but it remains a controversial ending that went against the home team, which led to enraged fans throwing bottles at players and officials.

However, we do not recall George W. Bush releasing a statement on this outcome…

3. The replacement referees are scapegoats and easy targets for criticism of officiating.

Credit to the person who first came up with the substitute teacher analogy, but that really is how everyone treated these guys for 48 games. They showed them no respect in a difficult situation where the replacements clearly were going to do an inferior job, but did the best they could.

It was a week earlier in Atlanta when ESPN’s Mike Tirico and Jon Gruden spent much of the broadcast berating the officials, and we heard a good share of it again on NBC on Sunday night with Al Michaels and Cris Collinsworth calling the Patriots/Ravens game. That game even ended with Bill Belichick grabbing at an official, drawing a $50,000 fine.

Everything was building up to a boiling point, and Monday night finally provided that.

4. The fourth quarter was filled with questionable-to-poor calls on both teams.

With the criticism getting stronger by each game this season, things were really about to explode after a lot of suspect calls in the fourth quarter in regards to pass interference, unnecessary roughness and roughing the passer.

5. ESPN announcers Mike Tirico and Jon Gruden fueled the fire for viewers.

Any announcing crew can slant the perception of a game, as they provide the basis of audio commentary for millions of the viewers.

If this call was so obviously an interception in live action like any swindler would contend, then why did the experienced play-by-play man Tirico make the following call?

The game’s final play is a Wilson lob to the end zone, which is…fought for by Tate with Jennings! Simultaneous, who has it? Who will they give it to? TOUCHDOWN!

Long before any signal from the refs, Tirico referenced “simultaneous”, which everyone knows goes to the offense. Minutes later Tirico would say it looked like a Jennings interception, but he obviously was not sure live, just as any person, replacement ref or real ref on the spot would be unable to decide in real time.

Gruden chimed in with the following:

They should give Green Bay the game is what they should do. No way Green Bay should fly 6,000 miles home after losing a game like this. That’s what instant replay’s for. I don’t like the way this game finished. I have a bad taste in my mouth.

Gruden would also cite the “terrible pass interference call” that went against Green Bay earlier. However, he made no mention of the terrible pass interference call on Kam Chancellor that extended Green Bay’s go-ahead touchdown drive.

Chancellor clearly made a greatly-timed play by knocking the ball down with his right hand, while never obstructing Jermichael Finley with his left. Instead of a 4th-and-2 situation and likely punt for Green Bay, the drive continued and they scored a touchdown.

Tirico jumped back in with “it feels like Jennings has more of the ball than Tate does”, which again means absolutely nothing, and yet some people think it does.

6. Social media is bigger and more dangerous than ever.

When the beloved Ed Hochuli blew the Jay Cutler fumble which would have clinched the game for San Diego in 2008, Twitter was not anywhere near as popular as it is today. On Monday night, millions of people were able to react to the call together – simultaneously, you could say – and instantly share misleading images such as this one on Twitter that shows the scrum well after the play is over.

Another famous picture was taking a still image of one ref signaling the touchdown and the other having his arms as incomplete, but matching that with the video you can see it is misleading. The other ref was making the motion to stop the clock, even though there was no time left. He never made the incomplete signal, nor did he ever complete the touchback signal, which would have been the case on an interception in the end zone.

Green Bay guard T.J. Lang, part of the offensive line that allowed eight sacks in the first half, set some Twitter record for the most retweets by f-bombing the league after the game. Not sure any of his tweets referenced how poor he and his offense played in the game.

With all the extra coverage today from ESPN and the NFL Network, the media blitz is stronger than ever and blew up the replacement ref controversy, ultimately using this ending to their advantage.

Moving On (Can We?)

In the end, the massive overreaction played a critical role in ending the referee strike this week.

That is about the only good thing that came of this. So lost in the madness is how well Seattle played defensively, how much Green Bay struggled, and for most people, lost was the great effort by Tate on this game-winning play.

The whole fiasco was still quite shameful, and we will end by dishing some of that out.

Shame on anyone claiming this is the worst call in NFL history. You clearly have some research to do. It is not even the worst call in a game involving the Seahawks or Packers. Vinny Testaverde says hello, for starters.

Shame on the media outlets not focusing on the frame-by-frame look at the play and instead showing the same old angles and repeating the same old rubbish that does not even apply. Allegedly Steve Young on ESPN actually defined a catch as having the ball in your chest. These are experts?

Shame on the select members of the Green Bay Packers for whining about the call rather than owning up to their poor performance. We already mentioned in Captain Comeback this week the other chances the Packers had to avoid this situation.

Shame on anyone who thinks the Packers should be protesting the result with a series of kneel downs this Sunday against New Orleans. Should the Giants have refused to take the field again during last year’s playoff game when Greg Jennings clearly fumbled, and the referees still blew the call and Green Bay scored a touchdown? What about the infamous roughing-the-passer call for a blow to the head that never happened that led to their other touchdown?

That’s right. A “real referee” called that in a big game. You know what else happened that day? Hakeem Nicks caught a Hail Mary touchdown in nearly the same spot as Tate. Looks like the Packers need to work on their Hail Mary defense.

Shame on anyone thinking the last touchdown was a fraud while ignoring how Green Bay had the lead in the first place. That Kam Chancellor pass interference on third down was not a penalty. At least Tate had enough for a touchdown.

Shame on Golden Tate for not immediately owning up to the push off, and instead going with the “I don’t know what you’re talking about” response.

Shame on anyway who thinks any referee would call offensive pass interference on a Hail Mary at the end of the game.

Shame on anyone thinking the real referees would have “got it right” when the replacements already did.

Shame on a ni—never mind. That was a Wu-Tang Clan song. Now can we get on with the regularly scheduled season of real referees bringing the next ruckus with a bad call in the clutch?
 
Cold Hard Football Facts with an interesting take on the now infamous play...

(The CHFF site has the pictures to go along with their argument)

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/shame-the-angry-mob-golden-tates-touchdown-was-legit/17706/

Shame on the Angry Mob: Golden Tate’s Touchdown Was Legit

Cold, Hard Football Facts for Sep 28, 2012

By Scott Kacsmar

With Captain Comeback, we like to look at the close finishes the NFL provides every week, and also do a good share of proving when the facts are being distorted by battles over semantics.

The much-publicized ending in the Green Bay at Seattle game from Monday Night Football is a classic example of both. It was one of the most exciting finishes ever, and the ending has been spoiled by controversy from the moment it happened as people fight over what the words “control”, “possession”, and “catch” mean in NFL terms.

The ending has hit mainstream news outside of the realm of sports, and many sources – most of which are not even qualified to make the statement – refer to it as the “worst call in NFL history.” That might be true if your knowledge of NFL history starts in 2012.

Enough already. The biggest travesty in the NFL this week comes from all the fans and media that have let a perfect storm of events shape the biggest overreaction ever to a call that was right, and a touchdown that was legitimate.

When you take your emotions out of it, and only study the facts, then there is no denying the replacement referees got the ending right, and the NFL’s statement was correct in upholding the call.

Analyzing the Touchdown

Want the short or long version? You know you are getting the long anyway, but if you need a summary, then here it goes.

The short version: Golden Tate had the first control of the ball, catching it with his left hand, which never loses control of the ball throughout the entire process of the play. His two feet hit the ground to establish possession before M.D. Jennings establishes possession. Tate’s butt hits the ground, and at this point, he still has control, possession and is in the end zone for a good touchdown. Tate pushed off for an uncalled offensive pass interference that would have ended the game, but this is irrelevant when history shows no referee in football will make such a call on a Hail Mary. Seattle’s win is legit.

The long version will now go through the whole catch, and the key is to look at a frame-by-frame analysis.

While slow-motion replays are sexier for TV, you have to take a frame-by-frame approach to get evidence of what really happens. No matter how many replays you watch from whatever angles you find, it is the exact frames at the key moments that will tell you what really happened, and why this is a touchdown.

First, everyone can agree that this was a pass in the end zone, with both players always inbounds, and the ball never hits the ground. That means it has to be either ruled a touchdown or an interception. That is not up for debate by anyone.

Next, we need to define control, possession and a catch, as these have been mixed up quite a bit this week. Possession only occurs when a catch is completed, and having control is a key element of making a catch.

The following is from the NFL’s statement on what defines a catch as stated in Rule 8, Section 1.

“A forward pass is complete (by the offense) or intercepted (by the defense) if a player, who is inbounds:

(a) secures control of the ball in his hands or arms prior to the ball touching the ground; and

(b) touches the ground inbounds with both feet or with any part of his body other than his hands; and

© maintains control of the ball long enough, after (a) and (b) have been fulfilled, to enable him to perform any act common to the game (i.e., maintaining control long enough to pitch it, pass it, advance with it, or avoid or ward off an opponent, etc.).”

If the player is going to the ground like they were in this play, then control must be maintained throughout the process for the catch to count. That did happen, and all the wrestling for the ball that took place was irrelevant as the touchdown was already good.

The following is the NFL’s rule for a simultaneous catch, as there apparently is no rule for simultaneous possession, which many have tried to talk about for this play.

Rule 8, Section 1, Article 3, Item 5 states:

“Simultaneous Catch. If a pass is caught simultaneously by two eligible opponents, and both players retain it, the ball belongs to the passers. It is not a simultaneous catch if a player gains control first and an opponent subsequently gains joint control. If the ball is muffed after simultaneous touching by two such players, all the players of the passing team become eligible to catch the loose ball.”

Technically, there probably never is a true simultaneous catch in the NFL, as someone will always touch the ball first (size of ball and hands dictate as much), as Tate did here. Hell, this call was probably still way closer than Bret Hart and Lex Luger simultaneously going over the top rope in the 1994 Royal Rumble. Now if you want to talk about a rip-off that you had to pay for…

Step One: Control

Anyways, the very first frame shows the most important element that so many have missed: Golden Tate controls the ball before Jennings.

This video from another analysis does a good job of showing the zoomed-in view, and Tate gets his left hand in between Jennings and makes the one-handed catch before Jennings closes his hands around the ball. Here is a cap from that video.

Hardly the best quality, but you can see Jennings’ helmet and space between his hands and the ball as Tate catches it first. Here are the first four frames to show the point of first contact with the ball (click here for huge image).

In the first frame the ball has yet to arrive. It does in the second, and it is stopped by Tate’s left hand with Jennings yet to touch it. The ball does not even move in the third and fourth frames, as Tate’s hand is holding it up the whole time as Jennings wraps his two hands around it.

Tate controls the ball with his left hand throughout the whole play. He controlled the ball even before Jennings did, because he touched it first as we have already seen. He has control, and you do not need two hands or arms for control. It is ridiculous how people are ignoring the fact that one-handed catches are made all the time.

In the 2010 AFC Divisional playoffs, Antonio Brown had a huge catch on a 3rd and 19 late in the game. He never got two hands on the ball, as you can see in the picture.

Instead, Brown pins the ball to his helmet a la David Tyree, and only keeps his right hand on it as he goes out of bounds on the play. Brown never established possession with both hands or arms, but he had control and was running in bounds before he stepped out. It was a good catch.

In 2006 Reggie Wayne made a great one-handed catch against the Eagles. He went out of bounds, never once put his second hand or arm on the ball, and it was good for 38 yards. The Eagles challenged, but the play was upheld.

Two years later Wayne had the game-winning touchdown to cap a comeback in Houston. Check the 3:14 mark here, and you can see Wayne initially get two hands on the ball while in the air, but quickly has his left hand leave the ball before hitting the ground. With the ball still firmly controlled in only his right hand, Wayne gets down in bounds just in time despite never gaining possession with two hands or arms. Touchdown, Colts.

Do we need more Indianapolis highlights? Also from a prime time game, how about Pierre Garcon’s one-handed grab against Washington in 2010? As Cris Collinsworth notes, the ball just stuck in his hand. Garcon never even had to use his second arm for a good catch.

None of these plays were controversial, a few of them did come in crucial situations, and they were all valid catches.

Some people think Tate moving his right hand off of Jennings for a moment before moving it back for the ball means he lost control. This is not true, as we have seen examples of plays where a player can move their hand off the ball, but it is fine as long as they still maintain control the whole time. Tate always had control with his left hand.

Then there is the fallacy of “having more control”, or the idea that two hands are better than one in this situation. That is not in the rule book, and not how any officials call the play.

If you can control the ball with your one hand and complete the process to the ground, like Tate and countless others before him did, then it is a good catch. Tate always had control with that left hand.

Step Two: Possession

A player in mid-air does not have possession. You must get two feet down.

As gravity brings Tate and Jennings down, Tate hits the ground first with both feet and his left hand on the ball as seen below.

You can see Jennings is still clearly off the ground, meaning he has yet to have possession while Tate already does. If simultaneous possession is even a real thing, then Tate would have beaten Jennings to it, actually negating the simultaneous call.

Tate then wraps his right hand around the ball while still having the left on it, and this also happens before Jennings establishes possession with his two feet on the ground.

Tate eventually parks his butt on the ground still with two hands on the ball, and at that point, it practically happens simultaneously with Jennings finally getting his second foot on the ground, as seen in this picture.

But Tate already has him beat twice: first to control, and now to possession. With both players on the ground and fighting over the ball, the touchdown had already been scored as the requirements for a catch were met in the end zone. Showing that popular image of Jennings trying to rip it away seconds later is irrelevant.

The fact that Jennings had to exert so much effort to even try and rip the ball away also speaks to the grip Tate had on the ball with his left hand. If Jennings was in such obvious possession as some believe, then why would he not have been able to easily get out with the ball?

It is because Tate always had that control with the left hand. A Seattle station (KCPQ) filmed a reverse-end zone angle of the play, and you can see that video here.

Steve Gallo did his own work on the play, and using this reverse angle from KCPQ, he was able to put together this picture.

Tate has his left hand on the ball, and his right forearm on the ball. Jennings’ left hand is actually on Tate and not the ball at this point.

In the end, expecting any referee to see a clear interception on this play is foolish. It was so close, and it takes a frame-by-frame analysis to even see who actually had control first.

The key part to the whole play is Tate making that initial contact with the left hand, controlling the ball in it throughout the whole process of going to the ground. He established possession before Jennings as well, and once he hit that ground with his ####, this thing was a good touchdown.

There is no way you could review this play and determine it was not a catch, so the correct ruling on the field of touchdown stood. Had the initial ruling been an interception, then they would have had to go to the frame-by-frame to reach the same conclusion here, which does not seem like something that’s actually used if you go by what we see on TV.

But it provides the undeniable evidence you need to see this was a touchdown thanks to that left hand of Tate.

Offensive Pass Interference

Having justified the touchdown catch, it is blatantly obvious that Tate pushed off for an offensive pass interference that was not called. The NFL admitted this one, and that call would have won the game for Green Bay right there.

But, there is an unwritten rule that you do not call pass interference on a Hail Mary at any level of football, whether you are a real ref or a replacement. It just does not happen.

NFL Network research said the last 87 times a team has tried a Hail Mary at the end of the game, not a single one of them were flagged for offensive pass interference. The Browns (go figure) were penalized for defensive pass interference in 2009, but never the offense.

Even calling DPI is frowned upon. When the Jaguars pulled off the Hail Mary over Houston in 2010, you can clearly see Mike Sims-Walker is knocked down with the ball in the air, and there was no flag for DPI.

In the end, that’s really how it should be. If you were to call these plays straight up, you would have a lot of offsetting fouls as the sea of bodies initiate a lot of contact on these plays. One could easily argue Seattle’s other receiver in the play was interfered with.

Hoping for offensive pass interference on a Hail Mary is like hoping for the president to bring all the troops home at once. It will not happen. Forget about it.

Green Bay should have knocked the ball down as there was no trailing receiver a la Detroit the day before. However, that would have been pretty hard given how good of a grip Golden Tate got on that ball.

Hopefully history will acknowledge his effort better than the reaction we have seen this week.

The Perfect Storm for Overreaction

After clear evidence and support from the NFL for why the play was ruled a touchdown, why is there so much complaining over the call? The circumstances of the moment created a perfect storm for a record amount of mass whining.

1. The game was in prime time.

This was not your run-of-the-mill 1 p.m. game with FOX’s fifth-best announcing crew getting lost in the early-game shuffle. Millions of people were able to watch the only game on TV. This was not the Detroit at Chicago game from Week 1 in 2010 with the Calvin Johnson play. More people watched this live.

2. The Green Bay Packers are one of the league’s flagship franchises and they were the losing team.

Not to pick on some of the usual suspects, but if this was a game where St. Louis or Jacksonville lost, then the outcry would not be anywhere near as loud or sustained. But because it was the Packers, 15-1 last year, league MVP at quarterback, owned by the people, that all strengthened the buzz.

Combining the first two factors, look at the 2001 “Bottle-gate” game between Jacksonville and Cleveland (yes, Browns involved again). After spiking the ball, the replay officials went back and reviewed the previous fourth-down play by the Browns, and overturned the call to an incompletion even though another play had been run.

Allegedly the ref was buzzed before the spike to review it, but it remains a controversial ending that went against the home team, which led to enraged fans throwing bottles at players and officials.

However, we do not recall George W. Bush releasing a statement on this outcome…

3. The replacement referees are scapegoats and easy targets for criticism of officiating.

Credit to the person who first came up with the substitute teacher analogy, but that really is how everyone treated these guys for 48 games. They showed them no respect in a difficult situation where the replacements clearly were going to do an inferior job, but did the best they could.

It was a week earlier in Atlanta when ESPN’s Mike Tirico and Jon Gruden spent much of the broadcast berating the officials, and we heard a good share of it again on NBC on Sunday night with Al Michaels and Cris Collinsworth calling the Patriots/Ravens game. That game even ended with Bill Belichick grabbing at an official, drawing a $50,000 fine.

Everything was building up to a boiling point, and Monday night finally provided that.

4. The fourth quarter was filled with questionable-to-poor calls on both teams.

With the criticism getting stronger by each game this season, things were really about to explode after a lot of suspect calls in the fourth quarter in regards to pass interference, unnecessary roughness and roughing the passer.

5. ESPN announcers Mike Tirico and Jon Gruden fueled the fire for viewers.

Any announcing crew can slant the perception of a game, as they provide the basis of audio commentary for millions of the viewers.

If this call was so obviously an interception in live action like any swindler would contend, then why did the experienced play-by-play man Tirico make the following call?

The game’s final play is a Wilson lob to the end zone, which is…fought for by Tate with Jennings! Simultaneous, who has it? Who will they give it to? TOUCHDOWN!

Long before any signal from the refs, Tirico referenced “simultaneous”, which everyone knows goes to the offense. Minutes later Tirico would say it looked like a Jennings interception, but he obviously was not sure live, just as any person, replacement ref or real ref on the spot would be unable to decide in real time.

Gruden chimed in with the following:

They should give Green Bay the game is what they should do. No way Green Bay should fly 6,000 miles home after losing a game like this. That’s what instant replay’s for. I don’t like the way this game finished. I have a bad taste in my mouth.

Gruden would also cite the “terrible pass interference call” that went against Green Bay earlier. However, he made no mention of the terrible pass interference call on Kam Chancellor that extended Green Bay’s go-ahead touchdown drive.

Chancellor clearly made a greatly-timed play by knocking the ball down with his right hand, while never obstructing Jermichael Finley with his left. Instead of a 4th-and-2 situation and likely punt for Green Bay, the drive continued and they scored a touchdown.

Tirico jumped back in with “it feels like Jennings has more of the ball than Tate does”, which again means absolutely nothing, and yet some people think it does.

6. Social media is bigger and more dangerous than ever.

When the beloved Ed Hochuli blew the Jay Cutler fumble which would have clinched the game for San Diego in 2008, Twitter was not anywhere near as popular as it is today. On Monday night, millions of people were able to react to the call together – simultaneously, you could say – and instantly share misleading images such as this one on Twitter that shows the scrum well after the play is over.

Another famous picture was taking a still image of one ref signaling the touchdown and the other having his arms as incomplete, but matching that with the video you can see it is misleading. The other ref was making the motion to stop the clock, even though there was no time left. He never made the incomplete signal, nor did he ever complete the touchback signal, which would have been the case on an interception in the end zone.

Green Bay guard T.J. Lang, part of the offensive line that allowed eight sacks in the first half, set some Twitter record for the most retweets by f-bombing the league after the game. Not sure any of his tweets referenced how poor he and his offense played in the game.

With all the extra coverage today from ESPN and the NFL Network, the media blitz is stronger than ever and blew up the replacement ref controversy, ultimately using this ending to their advantage.

Moving On (Can We?)

In the end, the massive overreaction played a critical role in ending the referee strike this week.

That is about the only good thing that came of this. So lost in the madness is how well Seattle played defensively, how much Green Bay struggled, and for most people, lost was the great effort by Tate on this game-winning play.

The whole fiasco was still quite shameful, and we will end by dishing some of that out.

Shame on anyone claiming this is the worst call in NFL history. You clearly have some research to do. It is not even the worst call in a game involving the Seahawks or Packers. Vinny Testaverde says hello, for starters.

Shame on the media outlets not focusing on the frame-by-frame look at the play and instead showing the same old angles and repeating the same old rubbish that does not even apply. Allegedly Steve Young on ESPN actually defined a catch as having the ball in your chest. These are experts?

Shame on the select members of the Green Bay Packers for whining about the call rather than owning up to their poor performance. We already mentioned in Captain Comeback this week the other chances the Packers had to avoid this situation.

Shame on anyone who thinks the Packers should be protesting the result with a series of kneel downs this Sunday against New Orleans. Should the Giants have refused to take the field again during last year’s playoff game when Greg Jennings clearly fumbled, and the referees still blew the call and Green Bay scored a touchdown? What about the infamous roughing-the-passer call for a blow to the head that never happened that led to their other touchdown?

That’s right. A “real referee” called that in a big game. You know what else happened that day? Hakeem Nicks caught a Hail Mary touchdown in nearly the same spot as Tate. Looks like the Packers need to work on their Hail Mary defense.

Shame on anyone thinking the last touchdown was a fraud while ignoring how Green Bay had the lead in the first place. That Kam Chancellor pass interference on third down was not a penalty. At least Tate had enough for a touchdown.

Shame on Golden Tate for not immediately owning up to the push off, and instead going with the “I don’t know what you’re talking about” response.

Shame on anyway who thinks any referee would call offensive pass interference on a Hail Mary at the end of the game.

Shame on anyone thinking the real referees would have “got it right” when the replacements already did.

Shame on a ni—never mind. That was a Wu-Tang Clan song. Now can we get on with the regularly scheduled season of real referees bringing the next ruckus with a bad call in the clutch?
So what he is saying is that Golden Tate made a one handed catch and clearly secured it before MD Jennings? ummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm ...... okkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkkk
 
Cold Hard Football Facts with an interesting take on the now infamous play...

(The CHFF site has the pictures to go along with their argument)

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/shame-the-angry-mob-golden-tates-touchdown-was-legit/17706/
It's time to let it go. There are going to be some people who will never buy it because they've publicly made their stance and the internet is too anonymous for people to own up to potentially being wrong. This will never sway a Packer fan and likely won't sway anyone who was "100% certain it was an interception", just as the same for someone like me who will never buy it was an interception by Jennings.
 
Cold Hard Football Facts with an interesting take on the now infamous play...

(The CHFF site has the pictures to go along with their argument)

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/shame-the-angry-mob-golden-tates-touchdown-was-legit/17706/
It's time to let it go. There are going to be some people who will never buy it because they've publicly made their stance and the internet is too anonymous for people to own up to potentially being wrong. This will never sway a Packer fan and likely won't sway anyone who was "100% certain it was an interception", just as the same for someone like me who will never buy it was an interception by Jennings.
Im not going to buy it when the guy starts out with the lie that Tate controlled the ball with that one hand.Touching the ball with your hand does not equal control.

Two of the real refs have stated publicly that they would have ruled interception...so sorry if this guy's story is not working out to people.

In the end...again, it does not matter after the fact...and the Packers and most have moved on...the Packers should have done more to never be in that situation and they didn't.

 
Im not going to buy it when the guy starts out with the lie that Tate controlled the ball with that one hand.Touching the ball with your hand does not equal control.
I agree with this. The author bases his extensive argument on a false presumption.
 
Cold Hard Football Facts with an interesting take on the now infamous play...

(The CHFF site has the pictures to go along with their argument)

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/shame-the-angry-mob-golden-tates-touchdown-was-legit/17706/
It's time to let it go. There are going to be some people who will never buy it because they've publicly made their stance and the internet is too anonymous for people to own up to potentially being wrong. This will never sway a Packer fan and likely won't sway anyone who was "100% certain it was an interception", just as the same for someone like me who will never buy it was an interception by Jennings.
Im not going to buy it when the guy starts out with the lie that Tate controlled the ball with that one hand.Touching the ball with your hand does not equal control.

Two of the real refs have stated publicly that they would have ruled interception...so sorry if this guy's story is not working out to people.

In the end...again, it does not matter after the fact...and the Packers and most have moved on...the Packers should have done more to never be in that situation and they didn't.
I think we can all agree that the Seahawks were fortunate to get a TD called in that situation (I'm a Seahawk fan). 99 of 100 times that play will be called an INT(right or wrong). In the end it may end up being a rallying point for the Packers this season - hopefully we'll see a rematch in the playoffs. It was a pretty dominate DEF performance against one of the best offenses in the league and unfortunately it's being overshadowed by the events at the end of the game.

 
Cold Hard Football Facts with an interesting take on the now infamous play...

(The CHFF site has the pictures to go along with their argument)

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/shame-the-angry-mob-golden-tates-touchdown-was-legit/17706/
It's time to let it go. There are going to be some people who will never buy it because they've publicly made their stance and the internet is too anonymous for people to own up to potentially being wrong. This will never sway a Packer fan and likely won't sway anyone who was "100% certain it was an interception", just as the same for someone like me who will never buy it was an interception by Jennings.
Im not going to buy it when the guy starts out with the lie that Tate controlled the ball with that one hand.Touching the ball with your hand does not equal control.

Two of the real refs have stated publicly that they would have ruled interception...so sorry if this guy's story is not working out to people.

In the end...again, it does not matter after the fact...and the Packers and most have moved on...the Packers should have done more to never be in that situation and they didn't.
You can definitively state he didn't catch the ball with one hand? Not sure that's possible... :shrug:
 
Cold Hard Football Facts with an interesting take on the now infamous play...

(The CHFF site has the pictures to go along with their argument)

http://www.coldhardf...as-legit/17706/
It's time to let it go. There are going to be some people who will never buy it because they've publicly made their stance and the internet is too anonymous for people to own up to potentially being wrong. This will never sway a Packer fan and likely won't sway anyone who was "100% certain it was an interception", just as the same for someone like me who will never buy it was an interception by Jennings.
Im not going to buy it when the guy starts out with the lie that Tate controlled the ball with that one hand.Touching the ball with your hand does not equal control.

Two of the real refs have stated publicly that they would have ruled interception...so sorry if this guy's story is not working out to people.

In the end...again, it does not matter after the fact...and the Packers and most have moved on...the Packers should have done more to never be in that situation and they didn't.
I think we can all agree that the Seahawks were fortunate to get a TD called in that situation (I'm a Seahawk fan). 99 of 100 times that play will be called an INT(right or wrong). In the end it may end up being a rallying point for the Packers this season - hopefully we'll see a rematch in the playoffs. It was a pretty dominate DEF performance against one of the best offenses in the league and unfortunately it's being overshadowed by the events at the end of the game.
But only in the first half. In the 2nd half the Packers were in control.
 
Cold Hard Football Facts with an interesting take on the now infamous play...

(The CHFF site has the pictures to go along with their argument)

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/shame-the-angry-mob-golden-tates-touchdown-was-legit/17706/
It's time to let it go. There are going to be some people who will never buy it because they've publicly made their stance and the internet is too anonymous for people to own up to potentially being wrong. This will never sway a Packer fan and likely won't sway anyone who was "100% certain it was an interception", just as the same for someone like me who will never buy it was an interception by Jennings.
Im not going to buy it when the guy starts out with the lie that Tate controlled the ball with that one hand.Touching the ball with your hand does not equal control.

Two of the real refs have stated publicly that they would have ruled interception...so sorry if this guy's story is not working out to people.

In the end...again, it does not matter after the fact...and the Packers and most have moved on...the Packers should have done more to never be in that situation and they didn't.
I think we can all agree that the Seahawks were fortunate to get a TD called in that situation (I'm a Seahawk fan). 99 of 100 times that play will be called an INT(right or wrong). In the end it may end up being a rallying point for the Packers this season - hopefully we'll see a rematch in the playoffs. It was a pretty dominate DEF performance against one of the best offenses in the league and unfortunately it's being overshadowed by the events at the end of the game.
Pretty good post and could very well come true with a matchup. I still contend that the possession but is secondary to the fact that they were specifically told not to flag PI on Hail Marys. I find it hard to believe that regular refs wouldn't have flagged it. Tate's push took out two defenders. Even on a HM that needs to be called.

 
Packers are playing this week because of there record. Im hoping the Seahawks play them in the NFC Championship and slap them silly like they did the first game. Green Bay fan tears are some of my favorite.

The ratings for the game would be insane...thats for sure.

 
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