Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)

[shader]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsKkN6VfuHM#t=252

Dude's voice is super annoying and the video is pretty annoying too. But man, this is interesting. If you have any interest in whether a ball will lose PSI in cold weather, this video is pretty obvious. It begins happening immediately.

 

[shader]

Or what if the Colts balls previously were 13.5 psi?

So what if the Colts balls were previously 13.5 psi? If the claim is that the weather knocked the balls down by 1.78 psi then that would have made the Colts balls' out of spec too. As far as we know (not a fact yet), they weren't out of spec though, hence I don't see how the weather could have had a 1.78 psi drop unless the Colts' balls were OVERinflated to 14.5+ psi to start.

I just can't think up a scenario where the Patriots balls dropped by 2 PSI due to the weather but both the Colts' balls and the Patriots' replacement balls didn't.

I get your point...but you are assuming that all those facts are true.

Right now you believe the Peter King article that the Colts balls were all measured. I get that. There's no reason to not believe it, as it's reported as fact and he's a reputable reporter.

But what if you personally re-created the circumstances of that day and tested 1,000 balls. And then what if 1,000 balls ALL lost 1.5-2 psi.

I think you would then begin to wonder if that report by Peter King was correct.

That's all I'm trying to say. If balls lose pressure in cold weather, the whole thing is a non-issue.

What you're missing is that this investigation is taking place BECAUSE the balls were tested and they got those results.

If the NFL had tested those balls and they ALL had lost 2+ PSI, this would be a non-issue and there wouldn't be an investigation at all. The results of those tests are what led the NFL to dig deeper into it to find out what happened to the Patriots balls. Unless you think this is one big conspiracy manufactured by the NFL and designed to both bring down the Patriots and cast a shadow over the entire Super Bowl.

And from there, you can come up with your own conclusions.

I get your point. I just don't think it's relevant to me if I'm the Patriots. I'd ask for proof of the testing. If that can't be provided, tell them that they can go jump in a lake because when you take balls from a warm environment to a cold environment, the balls lose PSI.

 

[shader]

To all the people who've already judged the Patriots guilty.... How do you feel about Aaron Rodgers submitting footballs for inspection that are above spec - say at 14.0? Does you call this cheating?

I can't answer until I go look at the Packers history of fumbling since Rodgers took over as QB. Did we instantly see a sharp increase in fumbles when he and his overinflated balls took over from Favre?

 

[Old Smiley]

I'd say a lot of current and former players have spoken out about this and disagree with your assessment here. It makes the QB's grip and feel better, leading to better accuracy. And both d-linemen and running backs (Bettis is an example) have said it's harder to force fumbles because runners can grip the ball better.

That's not proving something, that's saying something.

Well, when professionals who do this stuff for a living say it, it's pretty much proof to me. If quarterbacks say it makes a difference, it makes a difference. And I can go pick up my own football, take 2 PSI out of it, and grip it.... shockingly, my grip will be better because I can squeeze it harder because there's less air pressure in it.

Well, then that would be a mistake. Who you are has nothing to do with the validity of your claim. Claims have to be tested. You'd have to set something up where a bunch of footballs were inflated at differents pressures, and then play a #### load of games. Then see if you could find anything significant in the results. That's how it works.

We could do it if we started logging the pressures of all the footballs in all the games, but I don't know how many seasons we'd have to log before we had a valid sample size. I don't know statistics. 512 games a year times ??? years?

 

[Steelers4Life]

Even if you completely disregard the reports that the Colts balls didn't deflate in the entire game and the Patriots balls didn't deflate in the entire second half....

Do people realize that game-time temperature was about 50 degrees that day?

Even if the balls were filled up at normal room temperature, we're talking about a 20 degree difference between that room and the field before the inside and outside temperatures start to equalize.

I understand that Pats fans are searching for ways to rationalize what could've happened no matter how unlikely it is. But at some point, you look at the situation and there are too many coincidences to believe it was just a natural occurence.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

So if I am constructing an apologist argument on physics for the Pats I posit some more questions.

Others have raised, and often, the temperature of the room in which the Pats balls were inflated, or doing so with pre-warmed air, but what about the prospect that their method of filling them may have heated the air some. Gases under pressure change in volume and in temperature. If the pump was motorized that could also potentially be a heat source. Did both organizations use the same pump or type of pump and was that pump league approved?

Also, in what order where the balls tested at half time and after the game, and where? If tested by bringing the balls back inside and the Pats balls were tested first without sufficient time to warm back up, and the Colts balls where tested second, after more opportunity to warm, that would not be a fair scientific comparison. Was the time parameter for warming well controlled?

Also, were the balls dried equally before testing. Water, evaporating from the balls, might have a cooling effect. Wetter balls would remain cooler longer, potentially, effecting their pressure. Also, might not wetter balls lose their strength, allowing seems and leather to expand, reducing internal pressure, while drying stiches and leather would shrink, reducing internal airspace, and increasing pressure.

So many variable unchecked and un-discussed, so far, so far as we know.

Those MIT guys are not as thorough as they use to be. I bet they can come up with another .22 psi if they look around more thoroughly.

 

[shader]

If the Pats could prove scientifically that a football should have lost 1.5-2 lb's of PSI from when they were examined to halftime, they should turn it around and submit a report to the NFL complaining that the Colts must have overinflated their balls

 

[rockaction]

If you completely disregard the reports that the Colts balls didn't deflate in the entire game and the Patriots balls didn't deflate in the entire second half….you're a Patriots fan with Belichick in your avatar, "boston" in your screen name, or are just in the tank?

 

[Steelers4Life]

I'd say a lot of current and former players have spoken out about this and disagree with your assessment here. It makes the QB's grip and feel better, leading to better accuracy. And both d-linemen and running backs (Bettis is an example) have said it's harder to force fumbles because runners can grip the ball better.

That's not proving something, that's saying something.

Well, when professionals who do this stuff for a living say it, it's pretty much proof to me. If quarterbacks say it makes a difference, it makes a difference. And I can go pick up my own football, take 2 PSI out of it, and grip it.... shockingly, my grip will be better because I can squeeze it harder because there's less air pressure in it.

Well, then that would be a mistake. Who you are has nothing to do with the validity of your claim. Claims have to be tested. You'd have to set something up where a bunch of footballs were inflated at differents pressures, and then play a #### load of games. Then see if you could find anything significant in the results. That's how it works.

We could do it if we started logging the pressures of all the footballs in all the games, but I don't know how many seasons we'd have to log before we had a valid sample size. I don't know statistics. 512 games a year times ??? years?

Wow you're over-thinking things. If a dozen professional QBs say that a deflated ball gives you a better grip in colder weather, I'll believe them without having to run a scientific test.

 

[Old Smiley]

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

I would say this not only sums up 100% of this thread, but maybe 80% of this board ---- and unfortunately, possibly 50% of the general american public

I've seen spare tires blow up in the sun.

 

[Chaz McNulty]

there's a simple explanation for how the Colts footballs would remain unchanged and n it had nothing b to do v with the Colts over inflating theirs.

They filled their balls outside and the pats didn't. Which makes sense if you're the visiting team, and also if you intend to have the balls investigated later in the game.

Is there a rule related to air temperature in the ball? I haven't seen one posted. Is there a rule about where balls may be b filled? Of course not.

A properly inflated ball drops in pressure throughout the game and becomes softer as the game goes on. That's not cheating, it's nature. If the nfl wanted to put a rule in place to ensure that effect didn't happen, that's fine, but its silly to call it cheating.

The only team getting cheated here are v the patriots, who followed the rules and were blind sided by science and false accusations when they're supposed to be preparing for the superbowl. Obviously the league will issue am apology but by then it will be to late to make up for lost preparation time. And in the process, they've unnecessarily and unfairly tarnished the reputations of the greatest qb and coach in n the history of the league. shameful.

Weren't the Pats' backup balls filled at the same time as their starting balls? But the backup balls didn't drop in psi.

actually, they likely did, but weren't doublechecked until they had warmed back up.Assume they were inflated to 12.5 psi. The entire 1st half, they sit in the comfy confines of the referees locker room. When they are needed, they are brought onto the field of play. When they reach steady state temp of, say, 47, their pressure would drop to 11.4 psi. After the game, they are brought back into the lockerroom. The referees aren't under a time crunch to get them checked out now, they take a shower and fill out paperwork first. The balls are allowed to re-acclimate to room temperature and are pressure-checked, after they have warmed back up to a balmy 68 dF. The pressure reading would be exactly 12.5 psi.

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

Actually, they do. ask any auto mechanic or tire salesman - cold weather is the runaway number one reason people get a low tire pressure warning in the winter.Or check the gas pump next time you do self serve. You'll see a warning explaining how the gallon of gas you're buying is measured with a formula and a notice that temperature may affect the actual volume pumped.

Deflate gate is really the story of our national shame - poor science education.

sadly, this is true.

It's funny how the Indy balls didn't go down in pressure with the cold weather.

I think the Pat's fans need to stop making excuses and just let this thing play out. Nothing reeks of homerism more than silly rationalizations.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

I would say this not only sums up 100% of this thread, but maybe 80% of this board ---- and unfortunately, possibly 50% of the general american public

I've seen spare tires blow up in the sun.

Well then I am never taking my shirt off outside again.

 

[shader]

there's a simple explanation for how the Colts footballs would remain unchanged and n it had nothing b to do v with the Colts over inflating theirs.

They filled their balls outside and the pats didn't. Which makes sense if you're the visiting team, and also if you intend to have the balls investigated later in the game.

Is there a rule related to air temperature in the ball? I haven't seen one posted. Is there a rule about where balls may be b filled? Of course not.

A properly inflated ball drops in pressure throughout the game and becomes softer as the game goes on. That's not cheating, it's nature. If the nfl wanted to put a rule in place to ensure that effect didn't happen, that's fine, but its silly to call it cheating.

The only team getting cheated here are v the patriots, who followed the rules and were blind sided by science and false accusations when they're supposed to be preparing for the superbowl. Obviously the league will issue am apology but by then it will be to late to make up for lost preparation time. And in the process, they've unnecessarily and unfairly tarnished the reputations of the greatest qb and coach in n the history of the league. shameful.

Weren't the Pats' backup balls filled at the same time as their starting balls? But the backup balls didn't drop in psi.

actually, they likely did, but weren't doublechecked until they had warmed back up.Assume they were inflated to 12.5 psi. The entire 1st half, they sit in the comfy confines of the referees locker room. When they are needed, they are brought onto the field of play. When they reach steady state temp of, say, 47, their pressure would drop to 11.4 psi. After the game, they are brought back into the lockerroom. The referees aren't under a time crunch to get them checked out now, they take a shower and fill out paperwork first. The balls are allowed to re-acclimate to room temperature and are pressure-checked, after they have warmed back up to a balmy 68 dF. The pressure reading would be exactly 12.5 psi.

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

Actually, they do. ask any auto mechanic or tire salesman - cold weather is the runaway number one reason people get a low tire pressure warning in the winter.Or check the gas pump next time you do self serve. You'll see a warning explaining how the gallon of gas you're buying is measured with a formula and a notice that temperature may affect the actual volume pumped.

Deflate gate is really the story of our national shame - poor science education.

sadly, this is true.

It's funny how the Indy balls didn't go down in pressure with the cold weather.

I think the Pat's fans need to stop making excuses and just let this thing play out. Nothing reeks of homerism more than silly rationalizations.

I guess Indy's balls don't respond to science like every other football in the world. or....we may not know all the facts.

 

[bostonfred]

I don't expect them to get an extra first round pick next year after yet another fumbled nfl investigation turned out to be nothing, but an apology would be a good start. By Goodell. Live and televised in front of reporters. For half an hour, like brady did. Maybe he can explain how trivial Spygate really was while he's at it. Nothing less would be justice.

 

[Run It Up]

I don't expect them to get an extra first round pick next year after yet another fumbled nfl investigation turned out to be nothing, but an apology would be a good start. By Goodell. Live and televised in front of reporters. For half an hour, like brady did. Maybe he can explain how trivial Spygate really was while he's at it. Nothing less would be justice.

I really just want him to say that Brady's Balls were properly fellated.

 

[Old Smiley]

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

I would say this not only sums up 100% of this thread, but maybe 80% of this board ---- and unfortunately, possibly 50% of the general american public

I've seen spare tires blow up in the sun.

Well then I am never taking my shirt off outside again.

My spare tire is hidden by fat.

 

[bostonfred]

there's a simple explanation for how the Colts footballs would remain unchanged and n it had nothing b to do v with the Colts over inflating theirs.

They filled their balls outside and the pats didn't. Which makes sense if you're the visiting team, and also if you intend to have the balls investigated later in the game.

Is there a rule related to air temperature in the ball? I haven't seen one posted. Is there a rule about where balls may be b filled? Of course not.

A properly inflated ball drops in pressure throughout the game and becomes softer as the game goes on. That's not cheating, it's nature. If the nfl wanted to put a rule in place to ensure that effect didn't happen, that's fine, but its silly to call it cheating.

The only team getting cheated here are v the patriots, who followed the rules and were blind sided by science and false accusations when they're supposed to be preparing for the superbowl. Obviously the league will issue am apology but by then it will be to late to make up for lost preparation time. And in the process, they've unnecessarily and unfairly tarnished the reputations of the greatest qb and coach in n the history of the league. shameful.

Weren't the Pats' backup balls filled at the same time as their starting balls? But the backup balls didn't drop in psi.

actually, they likely did, but weren't doublechecked until they had warmed back up.Assume they were inflated to 12.5 psi. The entire 1st half, they sit in the comfy confines of the referees locker room. When they are needed, they are brought onto the field of play. When they reach steady state temp of, say, 47, their pressure would drop to 11.4 psi. After the game, they are brought back into the lockerroom. The referees aren't under a time crunch to get them checked out now, they take a shower and fill out paperwork first. The balls are allowed to re-acclimate to room temperature and are pressure-checked, after they have warmed back up to a balmy 68 dF. The pressure reading would be exactly 12.5 psi.

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

Actually, they do. ask any auto mechanic or tire salesman - cold weather is the runaway number one reason people get a low tire pressure warning in the winter.Or check the gas pump next time you do self serve. You'll see a warning explaining how the gallon of gas you're buying is measured with a formula and a notice that temperature may affect the actual volume pumped.

Deflate gate is really the story of our national shame - poor science education.

sadly, this is true.

It's funny how the Indy balls didn't go down in pressure with the cold weather.I think the Pat's fans need to stop making excuses and just let this thing play out. Nothing reeks of homerism more than silly rationalizations.

pumped indoors vs pumped outdoors.Especially with the Colts knowing that they planned to test them at halftime.

Simple explanation.

 

[bostonfred]

I don't expect them to get an extra first round pick next year after yet another fumbled nfl investigation turned out to be nothing, but an apology would be a good start. By Goodell. Live and televised in front of reporters. For half an hour, like brady did. Maybe he can explain how trivial Spygate really was while he's at it. Nothing less would be justice.

I really just want him to say that Brady's Balls were properly fellated.

damn you auto erect

 

[FreeBaGeL]

there's a simple explanation for how the Colts footballs would remain unchanged and n it had nothing b to do v with the Colts over inflating theirs.

They filled their balls outside and the pats didn't. Which makes sense if you're the visiting team, and also if you intend to have the balls investigated later in the game.

Is there a rule related to air temperature in the ball? I haven't seen one posted. Is there a rule about where balls may be b filled? Of course not.

A properly inflated ball drops in pressure throughout the game and becomes softer as the game goes on. That's not cheating, it's nature. If the nfl wanted to put a rule in place to ensure that effect didn't happen, that's fine, but its silly to call it cheating.

The only team getting cheated here are v the patriots, who followed the rules and were blind sided by science and false accusations when they're supposed to be preparing for the superbowl. Obviously the league will issue am apology but by then it will be to late to make up for lost preparation time. And in the process, they've unnecessarily and unfairly tarnished the reputations of the greatest qb and coach in n the history of the league. shameful.

Weren't the Pats' backup balls filled at the same time as their starting balls? But the backup balls didn't drop in psi.

actually, they likely did, but weren't doublechecked until they had warmed back up.

Assume they were inflated to 12.5 psi. The entire 1st half, they sit in the comfy confines of the referees locker room. When they are needed, they are brought onto the field of play. When they reach steady state temp of, say, 47, their pressure would drop to 11.4 psi. After the game, they are brought back into the lockerroom. The referees aren't under a time crunch to get them checked out now, they take a shower and fill out paperwork first. The balls are allowed to re-acclimate to room temperature and are pressure-checked, after they have warmed back up to a balmy 68 dF. The pressure reading would be exactly 12.5 psi.

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

that's not what's going on, and yes, when your tires heat up they repressurize --- it's gaining and losing pressure, not atmosphere.

gas expands when heated and 'shrinks' when cooled

it's very common for a tire light in your car to maybe pop on if it sits out overnight in the winter, but after the tires heat up from driving around the pressure will return to normal.

this is what they were teaching you in high school when you were napping in the back row

Sorry, my 12th grade IB chemistry background from 15 years ago didn't come up much when I was working on my software engineering masters. To be fair though, I did meet a pretty swell gal in that class so I'm not going to deny that I was otherwise occupied for some of those lessons.

And how many of the explaining this all out line by line did it without looking any of it up on google in the last few days? I believe that Moleculo didn't because, well, his name.

 

[shader]

there's a simple explanation for how the Colts footballs would remain unchanged and n it had nothing b to do v with the Colts over inflating theirs.

They filled their balls outside and the pats didn't. Which makes sense if you're the visiting team, and also if you intend to have the balls investigated later in the game.

Is there a rule related to air temperature in the ball? I haven't seen one posted. Is there a rule about where balls may be b filled? Of course not.

A properly inflated ball drops in pressure throughout the game and becomes softer as the game goes on. That's not cheating, it's nature. If the nfl wanted to put a rule in place to ensure that effect didn't happen, that's fine, but its silly to call it cheating.

The only team getting cheated here are v the patriots, who followed the rules and were blind sided by science and false accusations when they're supposed to be preparing for the superbowl. Obviously the league will issue am apology but by then it will be to late to make up for lost preparation time. And in the process, they've unnecessarily and unfairly tarnished the reputations of the greatest qb and coach in n the history of the league. shameful.

Weren't the Pats' backup balls filled at the same time as their starting balls? But the backup balls didn't drop in psi.

actually, they likely did, but weren't doublechecked until they had warmed back up.Assume they were inflated to 12.5 psi. The entire 1st half, they sit in the comfy confines of the referees locker room. When they are needed, they are brought onto the field of play. When they reach steady state temp of, say, 47, their pressure would drop to 11.4 psi. After the game, they are brought back into the lockerroom. The referees aren't under a time crunch to get them checked out now, they take a shower and fill out paperwork first. The balls are allowed to re-acclimate to room temperature and are pressure-checked, after they have warmed back up to a balmy 68 dF. The pressure reading would be exactly 12.5 psi.

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

that's not what's going on, and yes, when your tires heat up they repressurize --- it's gaining and losing pressure, not atmosphere.

gas expands when heated and 'shrinks' when cooled

it's very common for a tire light in your car to maybe pop on if it sits out overnight in the winter, but after the tires heat up from driving around the pressure will return to normal.

this is what they were teaching you in high school when you were napping in the back row

Sorry, my 12th grade IB chemistry background from 15 years ago didn't come up much when I was working on my software engineering masters. To be fair though, I did meet a pretty swell gal in that class so I'm not going to deny that I was otherwise occupied for some of those lessons.

And how many of the explaining this all out line by line did it without looking any of it up on google in the last few days? I believe that Moleculo didn't because, well, his name.

I learned from youtube

 

[General Tso]

My favorite theory is that the Pats inflated the balls in the sauna with hot air at 12.5. It passes the indoor inspection but when they get acclimated to the 47 degree outside temp they drop to 10.5. Easy to do, no post-inspection tampering, perhaps not even technically in violation of any written rules.

 

[KarmaPolice]

The Patriots may or may not have deliberately taken air out of the footballs they used in last Sundays AFC Championship game against the Colts. But the footballs definitely went through the proper pregame protocol and passed inspection.



According to an NFL source with direct knowledge of the situation, referee Walt Anderson inspected all 24 of the Patriots footballs with a pressure gauge supplied by the league, as well as all 24 footballs from the Colts. All 48 footballs were found to be inflated within the allowable range of 12.5-13.5 pounds per square inch.

Exactly. Nowhere in there does it say that gauges were used pre-game. It's very possible that all 24 balls were inspected by gauges at halftime and after the game - after the issue was raised to the refs. As for "proper pregame protocol", we still don't know exactly what that is. There's a lot of speculation out there that in practice the refs sometimes do a cursory visual inspection.I don't know what the answer is, but it is very odd that the NFL or the media hasn't come out with a definitive statement on this.

That statement is definitive. We past the point of being obtuse about it some time ago. Now it's just getting rigronkulous. The NE balls lost 2 psi between check-in and half-time. It happened. It did not happen to the Indy balls. This goes into the category of things we know.

Whether aliens let the air out it, or a rogue Colts cheerleader, or Howie Mandel, or BB we don't know.

Again, has the 2psi drop been confirmed? Just the Mort report has claimed that and everybody has run with that number.

What color is the sky in your fantasyland?

gotcha. It hasn't been confirmed they were in fact 2 psi lower than regulation.

 

[rockaction]

The Patriots may or may not have deliberately taken air out of the footballs they used in last Sundays AFC Championship game against the Colts. But the footballs definitely went through the proper pregame protocol and passed inspection.



According to an NFL source with direct knowledge of the situation, referee Walt Anderson inspected all 24 of the Patriots footballs with a pressure gauge supplied by the league, as well as all 24 footballs from the Colts. All 48 footballs were found to be inflated within the allowable range of 12.5-13.5 pounds per square inch.

Exactly. Nowhere in there does it say that gauges were used pre-game. It's very possible that all 24 balls were inspected by gauges at halftime and after the game - after the issue was raised to the refs. As for "proper pregame protocol", we still don't know exactly what that is. There's a lot of speculation out there that in practice the refs sometimes do a cursory visual inspection.I don't know what the answer is, but it is very odd that the NFL or the media hasn't come out with a definitive statement on this.

That statement is definitive. We past the point of being obtuse about it some time ago. Now it's just getting rigronkulous. The NE balls lost 2 psi between check-in and half-time. It happened. It did not happen to the Indy balls. This goes into the category of things we know.

Whether aliens let the air out it, or a rogue Colts cheerleader, or Howie Mandel, or BB we don't know.

Again, has the 2psi drop been confirmed? Just the Mort report has claimed that and everybody has run with that number.

What color is the sky in your fantasyland?

gotcha. It hasn't been confirmed they were in fact 2 psi lower than regulation.

As much as I hate the Pats fans ridiculing and embarrassing themselves about process, Lutherman 2112 has mastered the art of the personal attack when you're making an argument. I wouldn't worry about it.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Off the topic of deflategate but Tony Dungy thinks the NFL should do something (I assume he means in the future) to restrict the Pats substitution game. He says the refs missed two penalties-one in the Balt game and one in the Colts game-due to the eligible/ineligible player substitutions. He also says he would reluctantly advise the Seahawks to cheat if necessary by faking Def injuries, his reasoning being that that would be preferable to getting an apology from the NFL after losing a Super Bowl due to missed calls.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Worth posting just to see Pats fans spaz out. And, of course it must be said, he must be another with an axe to grind.

 

[rockaction]

Off the topic of deflategate but Tony Dungy thinks the NFL should do something (I assume he means in the future) to restrict the Pats substitution game. He says the refs missed two penalties-one in the Balt game and one in the Colts game-due to the eligible/ineligible player substitutions. He also says he would reluctantly advise the Seahawks to cheat if necessary by faking Def injuries, his reasoning being that that would be preferable to getting an apology from the NFL after losing a Super Bowl due to missed calls.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Worth posting just to see Pats fans spaz out. And, of course it must be said, he must be another with an axe to grind.

Oh dear God, you're crossing threads. That might cause the board to blow up.

 

[12punch]

there's a simple explanation for how the Colts footballs would remain unchanged and n it had nothing b to do v with the Colts over inflating theirs.

They filled their balls outside and the pats didn't. Which makes sense if you're the visiting team, and also if you intend to have the balls investigated later in the game.

Is there a rule related to air temperature in the ball? I haven't seen one posted. Is there a rule about where balls may be b filled? Of course not.

A properly inflated ball drops in pressure throughout the game and becomes softer as the game goes on. That's not cheating, it's nature. If the nfl wanted to put a rule in place to ensure that effect didn't happen, that's fine, but its silly to call it cheating.

The only team getting cheated here are v the patriots, who followed the rules and were blind sided by science and false accusations when they're supposed to be preparing for the superbowl. Obviously the league will issue am apology but by then it will be to late to make up for lost preparation time. And in the process, they've unnecessarily and unfairly tarnished the reputations of the greatest qb and coach in n the history of the league. shameful.

Weren't the Pats' backup balls filled at the same time as their starting balls? But the backup balls didn't drop in psi.

actually, they likely did, but weren't doublechecked until they had warmed back up.

Assume they were inflated to 12.5 psi. The entire 1st half, they sit in the comfy confines of the referees locker room. When they are needed, they are brought onto the field of play. When they reach steady state temp of, say, 47, their pressure would drop to 11.4 psi. After the game, they are brought back into the lockerroom. The referees aren't under a time crunch to get them checked out now, they take a shower and fill out paperwork first. The balls are allowed to re-acclimate to room temperature and are pressure-checked, after they have warmed back up to a balmy 68 dF. The pressure reading would be exactly 12.5 psi.

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

that's not what's going on, and yes, when your tires heat up they repressurize --- it's gaining and losing pressure, not atmosphere.

gas expands when heated and 'shrinks' when cooled

it's very common for a tire light in your car to maybe pop on if it sits out overnight in the winter, but after the tires heat up from driving around the pressure will return to normal.

this is what they were teaching you in high school when you were napping in the back row

Sorry, my 12th grade IB chemistry background from 15 years ago didn't come up much when I was working on my software engineering masters. To be fair though, I did meet a pretty swell gal in that class so I'm not going to deny that I was otherwise occupied for some of those lessons.

And how many of the explaining this all out line by line did it without looking any of it up on google in the last few days? I believe that Moleculo didn't because, well, his name.

I think that means he's a conan o'brien fan

 

[moleculo]

there's a simple explanation for how the Colts footballs would remain unchanged and n it had nothing b to do v with the Colts over inflating theirs.

They filled their balls outside and the pats didn't. Which makes sense if you're the visiting team, and also if you intend to have the balls investigated later in the game.

Is there a rule related to air temperature in the ball? I haven't seen one posted. Is there a rule about where balls may be b filled? Of course not.

A properly inflated ball drops in pressure throughout the game and becomes softer as the game goes on. That's not cheating, it's nature. If the nfl wanted to put a rule in place to ensure that effect didn't happen, that's fine, but its silly to call it cheating.

The only team getting cheated here are v the patriots, who followed the rules and were blind sided by science and false accusations when they're supposed to be preparing for the superbowl. Obviously the league will issue am apology but by then it will be to late to make up for lost preparation time. And in the process, they've unnecessarily and unfairly tarnished the reputations of the greatest qb and coach in n the history of the league. shameful.

Weren't the Pats' backup balls filled at the same time as their starting balls? But the backup balls didn't drop in psi.

actually, they likely did, but weren't doublechecked until they had warmed back up.

Assume they were inflated to 12.5 psi. The entire 1st half, they sit in the comfy confines of the referees locker room. When they are needed, they are brought onto the field of play. When they reach steady state temp of, say, 47, their pressure would drop to 11.4 psi. After the game, they are brought back into the lockerroom. The referees aren't under a time crunch to get them checked out now, they take a shower and fill out paperwork first. The balls are allowed to re-acclimate to room temperature and are pressure-checked, after they have warmed back up to a balmy 68 dF. The pressure reading would be exactly 12.5 psi.

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

that's not what's going on, and yes, when your tires heat up they repressurize --- it's gaining and losing pressure, not atmosphere.

gas expands when heated and 'shrinks' when cooled

it's very common for a tire light in your car to maybe pop on if it sits out overnight in the winter, but after the tires heat up from driving around the pressure will return to normal.

this is what they were teaching you in high school when you were napping in the back row

Sorry, my 12th grade IB chemistry background from 15 years ago didn't come up much when I was working on my software engineering masters. To be fair though, I did meet a pretty swell gal in that class so I'm not going to deny that I was otherwise occupied for some of those lessons.

And how many of the explaining this all out line by line did it without looking any of it up on google in the last few days? I believe that Moleculo didn't because, well, his name.

I didn't need to, but I did look some stuff up just to be sure.

PV=nRT => ideal gas law. Everyone should know that. Hold n and R constant, rearrange, and it it's pretty simple. Like lots of internet folks, I forgot to correct for gauge vs absolute pressure initially.

 

[yabahos]

Looking at the fumble numbers posted in this analysis & this analysis I believe there is an issue with their calculations. I think they are including incomplete passes as part of the total plays from scrimmage numbers. Obviously you can't fumble on an incomplete pass and therefore, teams that pass more are going to have a higher number of plays per fumbles. This data would also need to be normalized because the schedule is unbalanced. The Patriots play almost 40% of their games against the AFC East and from what I can tell the Jets have been at or near the bottom of the league in forced fumbles the last few years. I didn't have time to go through the Patriots schedule the last 5 years and correlate that with the defensive forced fumble stats.

Based on my read of these links -

http://www.footballperspective.com/the-definitive-analysis-of-offensive-fumbles/

http://www.footballperspective.com/2013-fumble-recovery-data-has-jets-cowboys-at-extremes/

I think its safe to say that the rate of fumbles (not just fumbles lost) is different for different types of plays. Unfortunately I couldn't find total fumbles (nfl.com just has fumbles lost) for receiving/rushing plays. A runner out of the back field faces a greater opportunity to be gang tackled and it would make sense that its harder to hold on to the ball when two or three defensive players are grabbing/punching at it. So I also think the analysis would need to be corrected for run/pass balance.

Perhaps the statistical outlier becomes much less of an outlier when the data is corrected for incomplete passes, run/pass balance, and schedule or perhaps not. I do know that there is a reason that scientists have their analysis peer reviewed before publishing it. IMO it looks like the authors both made the same mistake and stopped asking questions once the information supported the theory they wanted to prove. To make things worse there is a certain segment of the viewing public that will accept this analysis as gospel.

The nice thing is that NFL.com does have both forced fumbles and fumbles lost for all offensive plays. Really wished they had the same information for rushing attempts and receptions. Here is the data for the Patriots for 2010 through 2014.

Year Scrm Plys Rush_Att Pass_Att Comp Inc Plays (w/o inc.) FUM Lost Scrm Plys/Fumble Plays/Fumble
2010 986 454 507 331 176 810 9 5 109.6 90.0
2011 1082 438 612 402 210 872 13 5 83.2 67.1
2012 1191 523 641 402 239 952 14 7 85.1 68.0
2013 1138 470 628 380 248 890 24 9 47.4 37.1
2014 1073 438 609 392 217 856 13 4 82.5 65.8

5470 2323 2997 1907 1090 4380 73 30 74.9 60.0

So the numbers above do not match up perfectly with the Sharp Football & the other analyses. I didn't include playoff snaps so this could explain some of the variation. Neither one of those studies talks about what exactly Total Offensive Plays includes but it sure looks like it includes incomplete passes. The scrimmage play/fumble numbers are very close to the numbers put forth in the two analyses conducted. The last column plays/fumble is the number of scrimmage plays minus incompletions. These numbers could be further refined as I don't know if the scrimmage plays includes special teams (believe it does).

Finally here's a couple of interesting reads on Ben Jarvis Green-Ellis. The WSJ articles talks about a drill he use to run in college to help develop his technique and the Bleacher Report talks about the fact that he fumbled three times in two games and has some interesting points on his state of mind. Sounds like the first fumble may have gotten inside his head.

 

[12punch]

Off the topic of deflategate but Tony Dungy thinks the NFL should do something (I assume he means in the future) to restrict the Pats substitution game. He says the refs missed two penalties-one in the Balt game and one in the Colts game-due to the eligible/ineligible player substitutions. He also says he would reluctantly advise the Seahawks to cheat if necessary by faking Def injuries, his reasoning being that that would be preferable to getting an apology from the NFL after losing a Super Bowl due to missed calls.

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Worth posting just to see Pats fans spaz out. And, of course it must be said, he must be another with an axe to grind.

we got a thread for that, dude

66 pages not long enough for you?

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Off the topic of deflategate but Tony Dungy thinks the NFL should do something (I assume he means in the future) to restrict the Pats substitution game. He says the refs missed two penalties-one in the Balt game and one in the Colts game-due to the eligible/ineligible player substitutions. He also says he would reluctantly advise the Seahawks to cheat if necessary by faking Def injuries, his reasoning being that that would be preferable to getting an apology from the NFL after losing a Super Bowl due to missed calls.http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Worth posting just to see Pats fans spaz out. And, of course it must be said, he must be another with an axe to grind.

Oh dear God, you're crossing threads. That might cause the board to blow up.

Yeah, no doubt bad judgement on my part.

 

[bostonfred]

My favorite theory is that the Pats inflated the balls in the sauna with hot air at 12.5. It passes the indoor inspection but when they get acclimated to the 47 degree outside temp they drop to 10.5. Easy to do, no post-inspection tampering, perhaps not even technically in violation of any written rules.

doesn't need to be a sauna. MIT guy on the previous page showed that balls pumped - or even stored - in a normal 70 degree room would drop by 1.78 psi at game temperature. Colts most likely pumped/stored their balls outside, especially knowing that the refs were going to check them at half time.

Colts basically used science to cheat. If they could have gotten some kind of in game penalty against the pats because the refs don't know science, well, I'm sure that was their plan. After watching them pump crowd noise into the rca dome and deliberately lose games to get Andrew luck they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. The Colts are cheaters, plain and simple.

 

[Gandalf the Grey]

Off the topic of deflategate but Tony Dungy thinks the NFL should do something (I assume he means in the future) to restrict the Pats substitution game. He says the refs missed two penalties-one in the Balt game and one in the Colts game-due to the eligible/ineligible player substitutions. He also says he would reluctantly advise the Seahawks to cheat if necessary by faking Def injuries, his reasoning being that that would be preferable to getting an apology from the NFL after losing a Super Bowl due to missed calls.http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Worth posting just to see Pats fans spaz out. And, of course it must be said, he must be another with an axe to grind.

we got a thread for that, dude

66 pages not long enough for you?

Sorry, missed it, too much time in here.Eta where is it? Don't see it

Eta2 nm found it, it was in the Pats thread, only been in there a few times. But no spazzing out ensued.

 

[rockaction]

My favorite theory is that the Pats inflated the balls in the sauna with hot air at 12.5. It passes the indoor inspection but when they get acclimated to the 47 degree outside temp they drop to 10.5. Easy to do, no post-inspection tampering, perhaps not even technically in violation of any written rules.

doesn't need to be a sauna. MIT guy on the previous page showed that balls pumped - or even stored - in a normal 70 degree room would drop by 1.78 psi at game temperature.Colts most likely pumped/stored their balls outside, especially knowing that the refs were going to check them at half time.

Colts basically used science to cheat. If they could have gotten some kind of in game penalty against the pats because the refs don't know science, well, I'm sure that was their plan. After watching them pump crowd noise into the rca dome and deliberately lose games to get Andrew luck they don't deserve the benefit of the doubt. The Colts are cheaters, plain and simple.

This is such weak trolling.

Argh.

 

[12punch]

Off the topic of deflategate but Tony Dungy thinks the NFL should do something (I assume he means in the future) to restrict the Pats substitution game. He says the refs missed two penalties-one in the Balt game and one in the Colts game-due to the eligible/ineligible player substitutions. He also says he would reluctantly advise the Seahawks to cheat if necessary by faking Def injuries, his reasoning being that that would be preferable to getting an apology from the NFL after losing a Super Bowl due to missed calls.http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Worth posting just to see Pats fans spaz out. And, of course it must be said, he must be another with an axe to grind.

Oh dear God, you're crossing threads. That might cause the board to blow up.

Yeah, no doubt bad judgement on my part.

maybe the other thread's title was incomprehensible

edit: it's clearly labeled as fight song shell game or some nonsense from google translator

 

[Run It Up]

Off the topic of deflategate but Tony Dungy thinks the NFL should do something (I assume he means in the future) to restrict the Pats substitution game. He says the refs missed two penalties-one in the Balt game and one in the Colts game-due to the eligible/ineligible player substitutions. He also says he would reluctantly advise the Seahawks to cheat if necessary by faking Def injuries, his reasoning being that that would be preferable to getting an apology from the NFL after losing a Super Bowl due to missed calls.http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Worth posting just to see Pats fans spaz out. And, of course it must be said, he must be another with an axe to grind.

Oh dear God, you're crossing threads. That might cause the board to blow up.

Yeah, no doubt bad judgement on my part.

maybe the other thread's title was incomprehensible

edit: it's clearly labeled as fight song shell game or some nonsense from google translator

I'm hurt.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

there's a simple explanation for how the Colts footballs would remain unchanged and n it had nothing b to do v with the Colts over inflating theirs.

They filled their balls outside and the pats didn't. Which makes sense if you're the visiting team, and also if you intend to have the balls investigated later in the game.

Is there a rule related to air temperature in the ball? I haven't seen one posted. Is there a rule about where balls may be b filled? Of course not.

A properly inflated ball drops in pressure throughout the game and becomes softer as the game goes on. That's not cheating, it's nature. If the nfl wanted to put a rule in place to ensure that effect didn't happen, that's fine, but its silly to call it cheating.

The only team getting cheated here are v the patriots, who followed the rules and were blind sided by science and false accusations when they're supposed to be preparing for the superbowl. Obviously the league will issue am apology but by then it will be to late to make up for lost preparation time. And in the process, they've unnecessarily and unfairly tarnished the reputations of the greatest qb and coach in n the history of the league. shameful.

Weren't the Pats' backup balls filled at the same time as their starting balls? But the backup balls didn't drop in psi.

actually, they likely did, but weren't doublechecked until they had warmed back up.

Assume they were inflated to 12.5 psi. The entire 1st half, they sit in the comfy confines of the referees locker room. When they are needed, they are brought onto the field of play. When they reach steady state temp of, say, 47, their pressure would drop to 11.4 psi. After the game, they are brought back into the lockerroom. The referees aren't under a time crunch to get them checked out now, they take a shower and fill out paperwork first. The balls are allowed to re-acclimate to room temperature and are pressure-checked, after they have warmed back up to a balmy 68 dF. The pressure reading would be exactly 12.5 psi.

Does increasing the temperature put pressure that has been lost back in the ball? I'm no scientist so I'm asking here, but when it warms up outside my car tires don't magically get more air in them. At least not that I've noticed.

that's not what's going on, and yes, when your tires heat up they repressurize --- it's gaining and losing pressure, not atmosphere.

gas expands when heated and 'shrinks' when cooled

it's very common for a tire light in your car to maybe pop on if it sits out overnight in the winter, but after the tires heat up from driving around the pressure will return to normal.

this is what they were teaching you in high school when you were napping in the back row

Sorry, my 12th grade IB chemistry background from 15 years ago didn't come up much when I was working on my software engineering masters. To be fair though, I did meet a pretty swell gal in that class so I'm not going to deny that I was otherwise occupied for some of those lessons.

And how many of the explaining this all out line by line did it without looking any of it up on google in the last few days? I believe that Moleculo didn't because, well, his name.

I didn't need to, but I did look some stuff up just to be sure.

PV=nRT => ideal gas law. Everyone should know that. Hold n and R constant, rearrange, and it it's pretty simple. Like lots of internet folks, I forgot to correct for gauge vs absolute pressure initially.

 

[KarmaPolice]

It bothers me that we are all using such generic measurements here.

The balls were all 12.5. All of them were? Really?

The Patriots balls were found to be 2 pounds under spec. All of them were exactly 2 pounds? Seriously?

It's a makeshift, non-technical measurement done to provide a basic level of air pressure inside the footballs. The NFL obviously doesn't keep records of it or keep track of what exactly is done.

If you throw in the weather potentially causing significant changes in PSI, you have the makings of the NFL being in a situation where they can't prove ANYTHING....yet they've allowed a story to blow up bigger than any NFL story in years.

lets not bring numbers, facts, and logic into this.

 

[12punch]

It bothers me that we are all using such generic measurements here.

The balls were all 12.5. All of them were? Really?

The Patriots balls were found to be 2 pounds under spec. All of them were exactly 2 pounds? Seriously?

It's a makeshift, non-technical measurement done to provide a basic level of air pressure inside the footballs. The NFL obviously doesn't keep records of it or keep track of what exactly is done.

If you throw in the weather potentially causing significant changes in PSI, you have the makings of the NFL being in a situation where they can't prove ANYTHING....yet they've allowed a story to blow up bigger than any NFL story in years.

lets not bring numbers, facts, and logic into this.

I think the first 2 would be pretty much impossible, with the third highly improbable

 

[rockaction]

It bothers me that we are all using such generic measurements here.

The balls were all 12.5. All of them were? Really?

The Patriots balls were found to be 2 pounds under spec. All of them were exactly 2 pounds? Seriously?

It's a makeshift, non-technical measurement done to provide a basic level of air pressure inside the footballs. The NFL obviously doesn't keep records of it or keep track of what exactly is done.

If you throw in the weather potentially causing significant changes in PSI, you have the makings of the NFL being in a situation where they can't prove ANYTHING....yet they've allowed a story to blow up bigger than any NFL story in years.

lets not bring numbers, facts, and logic into this.

In all seriousness, you could make the case that the control of the footballs was monitored the entire time because of previous complaints and that's why the refs and the league have a firm grasp on exactly what went down.

 

[Rhythmdoctor]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsKkN6VfuHM#t=252

Dude's voice is super annoying and the video is pretty annoying too. But man, this is interesting. If you have any interest in whether a ball will lose PSI in cold weather, this video is pretty obvious. It begins happening immediately.

That's 3 minutes I will never get back.

 

[KarmaPolice]

It bothers me that we are all using such generic measurements here.

The balls were all 12.5. All of them were? Really?

The Patriots balls were found to be 2 pounds under spec. All of them were exactly 2 pounds? Seriously?

It's a makeshift, non-technical measurement done to provide a basic level of air pressure inside the footballs. The NFL obviously doesn't keep records of it or keep track of what exactly is done.

If you throw in the weather potentially causing significant changes in PSI, you have the makings of the NFL being in a situation where they can't prove ANYTHING....yet they've allowed a story to blow up bigger than any NFL story in years.

lets not bring numbers, facts, and logic into this.

In all seriousness, you could make the case that the control of the footballs was monitored the entire time because of previous complaints and that's why the refs and the league have a firm grasp on exactly what went down.

all i am saying is that we need info if they have it. What they have said means zip unless we know the starting psi of the colt footballs vs the Patriots. What were they at half, did the colts not drop at all and the pats did, did they both drop but the colts not as much, etc.. just speculation until they release that info.

If they dont have that, then wtf can be done?

 

[12punch]

Off the topic of deflategate but Tony Dungy thinks the NFL should do something (I assume he means in the future) to restrict the Pats substitution game. He says the refs missed two penalties-one in the Balt game and one in the Colts game-due to the eligible/ineligible player substitutions. He also says he would reluctantly advise the Seahawks to cheat if necessary by faking Def injuries, his reasoning being that that would be preferable to getting an apology from the NFL after losing a Super Bowl due to missed calls.http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/23/dungy-nfl-needs-to-restrict-new-englands-substitution-game/?ocid=Yahoo&partner=ya5nbcs

Worth posting just to see Pats fans spaz out. And, of course it must be said, he must be another with an axe to grind.

Oh dear God, you're crossing threads. That might cause the board to blow up.

Yeah, no doubt bad judgement on my part.

maybe the other thread's title was incomprehensible

edit: it's clearly labeled as fight song shell game or some nonsense from google translator

I'm hurt.

I would've titled it TONY DUNGY IS A ####### CHEATER!!!!!!!$^%

then my first post would be calling bull#### on water magically turning into ice

 

[Green and Gold]

Balls.

 

[Old Smiley]

Dude right?

 

[Bucky86]

Vag

 

[Deamon]

To all the people who've already judged the Patriots guilty.... How do you feel about Aaron Rodgers submitting footballs for inspection that are above spec - say at 14.0? Does you call this cheating?

You should start a thread on that. It could be like your follow up hit to "the dez bryant call"

 

[Deamon]

To all the people who've already judged the Patriots guilty.... How do you feel about Aaron Rodgers submitting footballs for inspection that are above spec - say at 14.0? Does you call this cheating?

You should start a thread on that. It could be like your follow up hit to "the dez bryant call"

Oh nevermind, you did.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

It does seem rather interesting that the league offices run by Goodell had little to no credibility coming out of the Rice scandal and the majority of posters on this board wanted him fired. However, now the vast majority of this board take anonymous leaks from Goodell's office to the press as absolute proof the Pats cheated.

 

[devouredbychaos]

VIDEO PROOF HAS EMERGED!

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NhdX1rsSULY

 

[Tango]

It does seem rather interesting that the league offices run by Goodell had little to no credibility coming out of the Rice scandal and the majority of posters on this board wanted him fired. However, now the vast majority of this board take anonymous leaks from Goodell's office to the press as absolute proof the Pats cheated.

Well....that's not very interesting actually unless you believe RG secretly wants to throttle his bestest buddy Bob Kraft.