Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)

[dirtyjay]

Love the Pats homers in here defending the potential cheating.

I love the pats haters in here accusing them of something that isn't proven.

The media is creating this storm and the Patriots are in full denial without any proof they cheated. How can people think they cheated just because the media says those balls were deflated. Anything could have happened and there is no proof but 81 pages of accusations. Until thre is proof or a smoking gun I think the Patriots are being treated so bad here.

 

[((Morpheus))]

No doubt. I was simply asked to provide some arguments against his pseudo science.

But let's be equally clear here that (a) he is NOT using science to back him up. And (b) his whole press conference was his OPINION about what could have happened. And that opinion so confident described was just as scientific as anything that anyone else has offered in all of these pages - in fact it's probably less.

Bringing up science to back him up is just opening up a new can of worms.

Don't kill the messenger.

Dude, scroll up. There are plenty of demonstrations of balls deflating due to changes in weather and temperature being done by respected scientists. BB reproduced these effects and invited others to so the same. That's science.The league is in a pickle because they don't have any measurements with which to refute the most parsimonious explanation laid forth by BB and many others.

ETA: he should've closed with "science, #####es" after dropping the mic yesterday.

 

[Ned]

Just heard some idiot on the radio go on for about 5 minutes about how the Wall Street Journal "proved" today that the Pats use illegal footballs because their ridiculously good fumble rate is a "statistical outlier".

So just wondering... when is that investigation being launched into Peyton Manning's 55 touchdown passes last season?

All of the DEN WRs carried duck calls?

 

[Niles Standish]

So BB and the gang went back to the scene of the crime to shift the perspective of the evidence. So basic. Not even believable in the best of Hollywood scripts.

Seriously though, they came off better when they were saying it's not a big deal. Now they just seem to be a little too defensive as if they are trying vehemently to end the conversation that is getting dangerously close to something really really bad.

There are many arguments against their pseudoscience.

Such as?

OK, I'll bite -

Where was the science? use of terms like atmospheric conditions and equilibrium?

He refers to an "internal study" but he has the luxury to hide behind the fact that he "is not a scientist" so he does not have to answer to the specific questions, and although he notes that they consulted with lots of people, he does not give the names (so no one can get more scientific information). Bottom line is that when running studies there are details that are critical to review and they need to be clearly and carefully clarified. For example:

(1) define the "process" the balls go through - he didn't come close other than referring to rub downs;

(2) define the timing of the "process" vs the timing of the game day process. He seems to suggest that on game day the rub down process continues to occur right up to the time in which the balls are handed to the officials. Really? This isn't something that is prepared ahead of time? something so important to every QB isn't settled until just before it is given to the officials? If it is done ahead of time then how far ahead? How long do they "process" the balls on game day? How long did you "process" the balls for the internal study? What is the change in psi from the last rub down to the handing off to the officials? For that matter how long does it take the officials to measure the psi after getting the balls from the team? Is this important? Well, that too is an empirical question - ie, if there is no change between the official hand off to the official measurement then it isn't important, but until that is demonstrated it would be a variable that needs to be considered and then compared between the internal study and the actual game day process.

(3) they used "multiple" balls in their internal study, "not just one." Well, how many? 2? 6? 12? 24? 48? Maybe it seems crazy to test 48 balls, but isn't that how many were included in the total set at game day? Heck Pats, at least tell us that you tested 12 balls just like the allegedly tampered set on game day. The sample size is a HUGE variable here (think about all the fantasy football stats issues here when we go into sample size - same variable here that needs to be defined). Based on his report, unless I missed something, they could have done this with 2.

(4) They put the balls through simulated game day situations -- this needs to be operationally defined. What do they think happens to the ball during a game? at what force? at what frequency? (cue the Gronk lovers here). How did they simulate that exactly?

(5) They refer to "controlled conditions" which seemed to imply at least the temperature of the rooms. Anything else effect the air pressure of a ball? If it was truly controlled then this would be one of the easiest points to define.

(6) BB notes a critical issue towards the end of his explanation in that he says that gauges vary in their measurements and no two footballs are exactly alike. The latter point is a big reason why they need to define their sample size (and it had better have been substantial). The measurement variance is huge. It would not be too difficult to determine the type of gauge used by officials at the stadium and then use the exact same type. The whole internal study can hinge on this point alone. They may have a gauge that is inconsistent with the officials measurements, making any comparison invalid. Heck their gauge may be inconsistent/unreliable thereby giving a different measurement post simulation simply because it gives a different reading each time. They need to define that too (getting tired of this yet?)

(7) The QB "feel test". OK, now we are going into some social psychology. BB explained that they had their QBs test the feel to see if they could differentiate between the balls based on psi. You really mean to tell me that rookie backup Garappollo is going to say that he can feel the difference when (a) the internal study may hinge on this AND (b) the great Tommy Boy already said that he couldn't do it? Right. The social pressure alone makes this an invalid "measurement". They need to test other QBs. Now keep in mind that many QBs have already said that they could do this but even those opinions should be tested for accuracy - that is IF you are trying to conduct some sort of internal scientific study.

(8) Finally, not really part of their study but he makes a big claim that they train in extreme conditions and they would never go the opposite route and train with weak equipment [my words, not his]. This is at best irrelevant and worse part of the point of advantage - what they do when they train isn't the issue, it's game day balls. That said, if they trained hard and had it easy on game day it boosts confidence if not performance (e.g., try running with ankle weights for 10-min and then run a sprint and tell me you don't feel faster).

Does some of this sound overly demanding? Well, that is the detail of science for you. Definition and replication within a scientific method is required.

If this was done to settle the masses it seemed to work a little bit, based on the reactions of so many of you. But, if this was meant to hold water as a scientific study ... sorry. The NFL could and should shoot this junk down pretty easily.

I wish he would take this seriously. If Belichick took a couple of weeks off and really proved the science this would all go away. I'm sure he doesn't have anything else important to spend his time on right now.

I bet Belichick isn't even an expert in physics!

 

[PhD]

No doubt. I was simply asked to provide some arguments against his pseudo science.

But let's be equally clear here that (a) he is NOT using science to back him up. And (b) his whole press conference was his OPINION about what could have happened. And that opinion so confident described was just as scientific as anything that anyone else has offered in all of these pages - in fact it's probably less.

Bringing up science to back him up is just opening up a new can of worms.

Don't kill the messenger.

Dude, scroll up. There are plenty of demonstrations of balls deflating due to changes in weather and temperature being done by respected scientists. BB reproduced these effects and invited others to so the same. That's science.The league is in a pickle because they don't have any measurements with which to refute the most parsimonious explanation laid forth by BB and many others.

ETA: he should've closed with "science, #####es" after dropping the mic yesterday.

 

[GoBirds]

Suddenly Belicheat is a physics professor schooled in atmospheric pressure?? Theyre going to get killed on media day this os NOT going away.question for the Professor...how come all Colts balls were at the absolute correct weight throughout the entite game???

Dopes gonna be dopes..and Belicheat is the master..

Sinple answer to him and Tommy Asterisk: take a polygraph .if youre as innocent as you claim put it all to rest right now, nice and quick..take a polygraph..and i hope a reporter asks both of these clowns this very question..

Stay clasdy Pats fans you're backing the biggest bunch of cheaters in pro sports history.theyve been doing for a decade since they cheated the Rams Eagles Panthers out of SB victories..

Ironically what may come out of this is a complete re-evaluation of Belichik, including Spygate. I've been of the opinion for many years that he and the Pats got a very raw deal in Spygate and in other subsequent accusations. History may wind up being much more kind to Belichik. I wouldn't rule it out.

You make it pretty obvious you feel they got a raw deal. History won't change and this definitely won't help the perception of them.

I agree with the General. BB called the so called spygate bs for what it was, BS. He is tired of this crap, and if the league ends up not finding NE guilty of anything here then it reinforces the belief that it is jealousy driving much of this.

I don't blame him for being pissed they won by a ton so it doesn't matter in this instance. Since he's been caught cheating in the past though the media will eat it up.

Umm, yeah, if like other teams, publicly recording what 80,000 people can already see anyway, then yeah u miiight be right. If u mean something else please elaborate.

Because the guy that got caught said so right? History speaks for itself, you have a horse in the race so I don't expect you to be unbiased. It's not like they took the trophies who cares.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Really want to know more about this "process". What on earth can they be doing to raise the PSI of 12 balls by 1-2 pounds immediately before handing them off to the refs?

Almost has to be something as a batch process. You do them one at a time and they're not going to stay overinflated long enough. And if there's no direct heat applied it limits the possibilities.

Tumbling them in a dryer with no heat maybe? That would raise the pressure in all of them without actually making the outside of the ball warm enough to be detected.

 

[PatsWillWin]

No doubt. I was simply asked to provide some arguments against his pseudo science.

But let's be equally clear here that (a) he is NOT using science to back him up. And (b) his whole press conference was his OPINION about what could have happened. And that opinion so confident described was just as scientific as anything that anyone else has offered in all of these pages - in fact it's probably less.

Bringing up science to back him up is just opening up a new can of worms.

Don't kill the messenger.

You seem to think that invoking the word "science" means a lot of things that it does not necessarily mean. We're talking pretty simple physics here. In a perfect world, this would be common sense.

 

[PatsWillWin]

Really want to know more about this "process". What on earth can they be doing to raise the PSI of 12 balls by 1-2 pounds immediately before handing them off to the refs?

Almost has to be something as a batch process. You do them one at a time and they're not going to stay overinflated long enough. And if there's no direct heat applied it limits the possibilities.

Tumbling them in a dryer with no heat maybe? That would raise the pressure in all of them without actually making the outside of the ball warm enough to be detected.

State secrets.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

No doubt. I was simply asked to provide some arguments against his pseudo science.

But let's be equally clear here that (a) he is NOT using science to back him up. And (b) his whole press conference was his OPINION about what could have happened. And that opinion so confident described was just as scientific as anything that anyone else has offered in all of these pages - in fact it's probably less.

Bringing up science to back him up is just opening up a new can of worms.

Don't kill the messenger.

You seem to think that invoking the word "science" means a lot of things that it does not necessarily mean. We're talking pretty simple physics here. In a perfect world, this would be common sense.

So glad someone has the answer here! What exactly are they doing?

 

[amnesiac]

Really want to know more about this "process". What on earth can they be doing to raise the PSI of 12 balls by 1-2 pounds immediately before handing them off to the refs?

Almost has to be something as a batch process. You do them one at a time and they're not going to stay overinflated long enough. And if there's no direct heat applied it limits the possibilities.

Tumbling them in a dryer with no heat maybe? That would raise the pressure in all of them without actually making the outside of the ball warm enough to be detected.

i think it was Gannon who mentioned tumbling the footballs was a pretty common practice.

 

[Road Warriors]

So, let me get this straight. All these psi numbers don't add up for Pats fans, they want calibrations done with NASA equipment to explains temperatures and proper inflation numbers but Belichick mentions his findings and it is taken as gospel? Got it.

If you could point me to the league's description of what they did and what they found, I'll take it under consideration. I won't accept unnamed sources as data points.

Or...

So, let me get this straight. All these psi number speculation and leaks don't add up for Pats haters, but its definitive proof they have cheated for years, but Belichick comes out with a description of going through their typical gameday process and reports finding psi changes in the footballs at various points in time, and its all lies? Got it.

 

[Road Warriors]

Jesus H. - look at this video from HeadSmart Labs operated by Carnegie Mellon - one of the top engineering/research universities on earth. They started with 12 balls in a 75 degree room at 12.5 psi. They then simulated the outdoor conditions that night - 50 degrees and wet - and remeasured. The balls dropped 1.8 to 1.9 psi. How on earth does the NFL not shut this down immediately? What a ####### joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxsXFX3tDpg&app=desktop

They're now investigating why the Colts balls don't respond to the laws of physics ( or would it be thermodynamics? )

 

[JIslander]

Didn't see BB's presser, but is the claim now that they "prepped" the balls but were unaware of effect on pressure change within legal limits?

 

[kyoun1e]

Only one additional page in the last 10 hours.

That press conference sure sent the haters back in their holes.

 

[shader]

over/under on this thread by kickoff: 150 pages

Probably won't hit 100. The debate is over. Haters have scattered.

 

[shader]

So BB and the gang went back to the scene of the crime to shift the perspective of the evidence. So basic. Not even believable in the best of Hollywood scripts.

Seriously though, they came off better when they were saying it's not a big deal. Now they just seem to be a little too defensive as if they are trying vehemently to end the conversation that is getting dangerously close to something really really bad.

There are many arguments against their pseudoscience.

Such as?

OK, I'll bite -

Where was the science? use of terms like atmospheric conditions and equilibrium?

He refers to an "internal study" but he has the luxury to hide behind the fact that he "is not a scientist" so he does not have to answer to the specific questions, and although he notes that they consulted with lots of people, he does not give the names (so no one can get more scientific information). Bottom line is that when running studies there are details that are critical to review and they need to be clearly and carefully clarified. For example:

(1) define the "process" the balls go through - he didn't come close other than referring to rub downs;

(2) define the timing of the "process" vs the timing of the game day process. He seems to suggest that on game day the rub down process continues to occur right up to the time in which the balls are handed to the officials. Really? This isn't something that is prepared ahead of time? something so important to every QB isn't settled until just before it is given to the officials? If it is done ahead of time then how far ahead? How long do they "process" the balls on game day? How long did you "process" the balls for the internal study? What is the change in psi from the last rub down to the handing off to the officials? For that matter how long does it take the officials to measure the psi after getting the balls from the team? Is this important? Well, that too is an empirical question - ie, if there is no change between the official hand off to the official measurement then it isn't important, but until that is demonstrated it would be a variable that needs to be considered and then compared between the internal study and the actual game day process.

(3) they used "multiple" balls in their internal study, "not just one." Well, how many? 2? 6? 12? 24? 48? Maybe it seems crazy to test 48 balls, but isn't that how many were included in the total set at game day? Heck Pats, at least tell us that you tested 12 balls just like the allegedly tampered set on game day. The sample size is a HUGE variable here (think about all the fantasy football stats issues here when we go into sample size - same variable here that needs to be defined). Based on his report, unless I missed something, they could have done this with 2.

(4) They put the balls through simulated game day situations -- this needs to be operationally defined. What do they think happens to the ball during a game? at what force? at what frequency? (cue the Gronk lovers here). How did they simulate that exactly?

(5) They refer to "controlled conditions" which seemed to imply at least the temperature of the rooms. Anything else effect the air pressure of a ball? If it was truly controlled then this would be one of the easiest points to define.

(6) BB notes a critical issue towards the end of his explanation in that he says that gauges vary in their measurements and no two footballs are exactly alike. The latter point is a big reason why they need to define their sample size (and it had better have been substantial). The measurement variance is huge. It would not be too difficult to determine the type of gauge used by officials at the stadium and then use the exact same type. The whole internal study can hinge on this point alone. They may have a gauge that is inconsistent with the officials measurements, making any comparison invalid. Heck their gauge may be inconsistent/unreliable thereby giving a different measurement post simulation simply because it gives a different reading each time. They need to define that too (getting tired of this yet?)

(7) The QB "feel test". OK, now we are going into some social psychology. BB explained that they had their QBs test the feel to see if they could differentiate between the balls based on psi. You really mean to tell me that rookie backup Garappollo is going to say that he can feel the difference when (a) the internal study may hinge on this AND (b) the great Tommy Boy already said that he couldn't do it? Right. The social pressure alone makes this an invalid "measurement". They need to test other QBs. Now keep in mind that many QBs have already said that they could do this but even those opinions should be tested for accuracy - that is IF you are trying to conduct some sort of internal scientific study.

(8) Finally, not really part of their study but he makes a big claim that they train in extreme conditions and they would never go the opposite route and train with weak equipment [my words, not his]. This is at best irrelevant and worse part of the point of advantage - what they do when they train isn't the issue, it's game day balls. That said, if they trained hard and had it easy on game day it boosts confidence if not performance (e.g., try running with ankle weights for 10-min and then run a sprint and tell me you don't feel faster).

Does some of this sound overly demanding? Well, that is the detail of science for you. Definition and replication within a scientific method is required.

If this was done to settle the masses it seemed to work a little bit, based on the reactions of so many of you. But, if this was meant to hold water as a scientific study ... sorry. The NFL could and should shoot this junk down pretty easily.

I'm sorry you wasted so much time and effort. This wasn't meant to hold water as a scientific study. It was a press conference by a football coach.

 

[((Morpheus))]

Jesus H. - look at this video from HeadSmart Labs operated by Carnegie Mellon - one of the top engineering/research universities on earth. They started with 12 balls in a 75 degree room at 12.5 psi. They then simulated the outdoor conditions that night - 50 degrees and wet - and remeasured. The balls dropped 1.8 to 1.9 psi. How on earth does the NFL not shut this down immediately? What a ####### joke.

Indy's balls lost pressure, too - the ideal gas law doesn't discriminate.

Now we're waiting for the NFL's lab notebook from that night so we can see the before/after measurements for Indy's balls. Don't hold your breath though.

 

[GoBirds]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

 

[shader]

No doubt. I was simply asked to provide some arguments against his pseudo science.

But let's be equally clear here that (a) he is NOT using science to back him up. And (b) his whole press conference was his OPINION about what could have happened. And that opinion so confident described was just as scientific as anything that anyone else has offered in all of these pages - in fact it's probably less.

Bringing up science to back him up is just opening up a new can of worms.

Don't kill the messenger.

Um... I think using science is exactly what he did.

They had a hypothesis, tested the hypothesis, the whole, you know, scientific method.

 

[Witz]

Jesus H. - look at this video from HeadSmart Labs operated by Carnegie Mellon - one of the top engineering/research universities on earth. They started with 12 balls in a 75 degree room at 12.5 psi. They then simulated the outdoor conditions that night - 50 degrees and wet - and remeasured. The balls dropped 1.8 to 1.9 psi. How on earth does the NFL not shut this down immediately? What a ####### joke.

Not sure this proves it though (poke holes though).

In their experiment, they placed the balls on a rack where they remained for the testing period. There was no movement of the balls and they remained still.

During the game, the balls are constantly being moved, rubbed, etc. by players, refs. Based on Bill's comments, they rub the balls before the game and this accounted for an increase of 1 psi so one would think CM's study would need to do the same to get comparable results but I'm not a scientist.

 

[shader]

Didn't see BB's presser, but is the claim now that they "prepped" the balls but were unaware of effect on pressure change within legal limits?

No his presser basically told the world of lazy Internet dweebs that if you do different things with a football, such as rub it down, heat it up, cool it down, then psi changes.Once the world of lazy internet dweebs realizes...oh yeah, well then I guess the pats didn't have to cheat to cause the psi to change...then the story ends immediately.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Belichick came right out and said the balls were underinflated because of what the Patriots were doing immediately before they gave them to the refs.

But unless the NFL has more info it seems like it's probably enough to maintain plausible deniability even if you don't believe they're telling the truth.

And whether you believe they're telling the truth that they didn't know what they were doing to the PSI depends on whether you thought they were cheaters in the first place. Who wants to argue about that?

i.e. there's not a lot more to say unless there's more to the story.

 

[The Kerminator]

Really want to know more about this "process". What on earth can they be doing to raise the PSI of 12 balls by 1-2 pounds immediately before handing them off to the refs?

Almost has to be something as a batch process. You do them one at a time and they're not going to stay overinflated long enough. And if there's no direct heat applied it limits the possibilities.

Tumbling them in a dryer with no heat maybe? That would raise the pressure in all of them without actually making the outside of the ball warm enough to be detected.

Don't you love how Belichick challenged the media to try the experiment themselves but then conveniently left out the "how they process their balls" part? Isn't that the part that is key to his whole argument?

 

[JIslander]

So how is that still not cheating when you know the end result is what Brady wants? A ball less than legal psi.

 

[The Kerminator]

So BB and the gang went back to the scene of the crime to shift the perspective of the evidence. So basic. Not even believable in the best of Hollywood scripts.

Seriously though, they came off better when they were saying it's not a big deal. Now they just seem to be a little too defensive as if they are trying vehemently to end the conversation that is getting dangerously close to something really really bad.

There are many arguments against their pseudoscience.

Such as?

OK, I'll bite -

Where was the science? use of terms like atmospheric conditions and equilibrium?

He refers to an "internal study" but he has the luxury to hide behind the fact that he "is not a scientist" so he does not have to answer to the specific questions, and although he notes that they consulted with lots of people, he does not give the names (so no one can get more scientific information). Bottom line is that when running studies there are details that are critical to review and they need to be clearly and carefully clarified. For example:

(1) define the "process" the balls go through - he didn't come close other than referring to rub downs;

(2) define the timing of the "process" vs the timing of the game day process. He seems to suggest that on game day the rub down process continues to occur right up to the time in which the balls are handed to the officials. Really? This isn't something that is prepared ahead of time? something so important to every QB isn't settled until just before it is given to the officials? If it is done ahead of time then how far ahead? How long do they "process" the balls on game day? How long did you "process" the balls for the internal study? What is the change in psi from the last rub down to the handing off to the officials? For that matter how long does it take the officials to measure the psi after getting the balls from the team? Is this important? Well, that too is an empirical question - ie, if there is no change between the official hand off to the official measurement then it isn't important, but until that is demonstrated it would be a variable that needs to be considered and then compared between the internal study and the actual game day process.

(3) they used "multiple" balls in their internal study, "not just one." Well, how many? 2? 6? 12? 24? 48? Maybe it seems crazy to test 48 balls, but isn't that how many were included in the total set at game day? Heck Pats, at least tell us that you tested 12 balls just like the allegedly tampered set on game day. The sample size is a HUGE variable here (think about all the fantasy football stats issues here when we go into sample size - same variable here that needs to be defined). Based on his report, unless I missed something, they could have done this with 2.

(4) They put the balls through simulated game day situations -- this needs to be operationally defined. What do they think happens to the ball during a game? at what force? at what frequency? (cue the Gronk lovers here). How did they simulate that exactly?

(5) They refer to "controlled conditions" which seemed to imply at least the temperature of the rooms. Anything else effect the air pressure of a ball? If it was truly controlled then this would be one of the easiest points to define.

(6) BB notes a critical issue towards the end of his explanation in that he says that gauges vary in their measurements and no two footballs are exactly alike. The latter point is a big reason why they need to define their sample size (and it had better have been substantial). The measurement variance is huge. It would not be too difficult to determine the type of gauge used by officials at the stadium and then use the exact same type. The whole internal study can hinge on this point alone. They may have a gauge that is inconsistent with the officials measurements, making any comparison invalid. Heck their gauge may be inconsistent/unreliable thereby giving a different measurement post simulation simply because it gives a different reading each time. They need to define that too (getting tired of this yet?)

(7) The QB "feel test". OK, now we are going into some social psychology. BB explained that they had their QBs test the feel to see if they could differentiate between the balls based on psi. You really mean to tell me that rookie backup Garappollo is going to say that he can feel the difference when (a) the internal study may hinge on this AND (b) the great Tommy Boy already said that he couldn't do it? Right. The social pressure alone makes this an invalid "measurement". They need to test other QBs. Now keep in mind that many QBs have already said that they could do this but even those opinions should be tested for accuracy - that is IF you are trying to conduct some sort of internal scientific study.

(8) Finally, not really part of their study but he makes a big claim that they train in extreme conditions and they would never go the opposite route and train with weak equipment [my words, not his]. This is at best irrelevant and worse part of the point of advantage - what they do when they train isn't the issue, it's game day balls. That said, if they trained hard and had it easy on game day it boosts confidence if not performance (e.g., try running with ankle weights for 10-min and then run a sprint and tell me you don't feel faster).

Does some of this sound overly demanding? Well, that is the detail of science for you. Definition and replication within a scientific method is required.

If this was done to settle the masses it seemed to work a little bit, based on the reactions of so many of you. But, if this was meant to hold water as a scientific study ... sorry. The NFL could and should shoot this junk down pretty easily.

I'm sorry you wasted so much time and effort. This wasn't meant to hold water as a scientific study. It was a press conference by a football coach.

Then why do the NE fans claim that's the end of the argument? Because Belichick said so?

 

[Bayhawks]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

 

[Niles Standish]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

Seriously? Do you think the independent law firm and investigation firm that were hired will join the conspiracy? Do you think if the NFL has proof it won't leak out?

I understand you're a Seahawks fan so you want to believe the Pats cheated if they win. But you sound beyond ridiculous.

If the Pats cheated it will be exposed.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

So how is that still not cheating when you know the end result is what Brady wants? A ball less than legal psi.

Belichik was shocked! to find out the balls were underinflated. Didn't you hear him?

 

[Bad_Mo]

After the Pats lose their 7th round pick, I wonder if the NFL will destroy the balls.

The pick should be given to Indy. Indy should focus on an Ivy League player who majored in psychology and could possibly be converted to a long snapper.

They need someone who can help Luck mentally because NE is in his head.

 

[shader]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

Go ask the colts.

It really doesn't matter. The few remaining ones left who are still confused because they didn't follow yesterday's events are likely wondering what happened.

But it's simple. Psi changes. BB proved that. Who cares about what the psi is for this and the psi is for that. That really wasn't his point. His point is that psi isn't an exact science, it changes based in a variety of factors, and the NFL has no business investigating psi during a game, as in cold weather games psi is likely to be far lower than it was when the officials measured it.

 

[The Kerminator]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case? Lazy equipment men?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs? Magic balls

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them? Again with the Magic balls

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

 

[Niles Standish]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

As far as I've read the 2nd half balls were reinflated before the half. But that might not be the case. I hope it will be in the NFLs statement.

The Colts balls were probably inflated to 13.5. Luck is a big dude 6'4 240 there's a good chance he has big hands like Rodgers and prefers a more inflated ball. Another thing we will hopefully find out in the NFL statement.

 

[Anarchy99]

So how is that still not cheating when you know the end result is what Brady wants? A ball less than legal psi.

The rule states what the psi of each ball should be when the refs inspect it. If a ball does not meet spec, it is on them to make it in spec or not approve it and request another ball.

From what I can tell, there is no provision in the rules that each ball has to stay within spec the entire game. Only at the time of inspection 135 minutes before game time.

 

[GoBirds]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

Seriously? Do you think the independent law firm and investigation firm that were hired will join the conspiracy? Do you think if the NFL has proof it won't leak out?I understand you're a Seahawks fan so you want to believe the Pats cheated if they win. But you sound beyond ridiculous.

If the Pats cheated it will be exposed.

Wrong birds definitely not Seahawks fan. Last I heard the NFL hadn't even interviewed Brady....didn't sound like they were too motivated.

 

[The Kerminator]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

Go ask the colts.

It really doesn't matter. The few remaining ones left who are still confused because they didn't follow yesterday's events are likely wondering what happened.

But it's simple. Psi changes. BB proved that. Who cares about what the psi is for this and the psi is for that. That really wasn't his point. His point is that psi isn't an exact science, it changes based in a variety of factors, and the NFL has no business investigating psi during a game, as in cold weather games psi is likely to be far lower than it was when the officials measured it.

Go ask the Colts? Nice cop out.

BB kind of lost all credibility in the press conference when he said they don't do anything that would cross the line or even approach the line.

 

[devouredbychaos]

So how is that still not cheating when you know the end result is what Brady wants? A ball less than legal psi.

Still salty over that Ravens loss I see.. Dat salt!

 

[Niles Standish]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

Seriously? Do you think the independent law firm and investigation firm that were hired will join the conspiracy? Do you think if the NFL has proof it won't leak out?I understand you're a Seahawks fan so you want to believe the Pats cheated if they win. But you sound beyond ridiculous.

If the Pats cheated it will be exposed.

Wrong birds definitely not Seahawks fan. Last I heard the NFL hadn't even interviewed Brady....didn't sound like they were too motivated.

Either way. The NFL hired a private investigative group and a private legal firm. Even if you think the NFL might cover up info the private groups will not. That could land them in jail.

 

[theplayer11]

media is so lazy...anyone can do a simulation...All the haters should keep their pie holes shut unless they actually did a simulation and found that weather, moisture does not lower PSI...OR since they are lazy, just read the Carnegie Mellon report.

I can't believe how dumb our society has gotten.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Either way. The NFL hired a private investigative group and a private legal firm. Even if you think the NFL might cover up info the private groups will not. That could land them in jail.

Scuffing them up in a dryer (or whatever) right before handing them off to the ref seems sketchy (since you could scuff them up for days/weeks ahead of time instead), but it's plausible.

So unless there's e-mail or documentary evidence that they explored how to game the PSI rules what's the private group going to find that would keep this going?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

media is so lazy...anyone can do a simulation...All the haters should keep their pie holes shut unless they actually did a simulation and found that weather, moisture does not lower PSI...OR since they are lazy, just read the Carnegie Mellon report.

I can't believe how dumb our society has gotten.

Awesome! Everyone but me seems to know what they did. What exactly did they do? I'd like to recreate the experiment.

 

[Lutherman2112]

Latest polls show Belichik hit a homerun today. Public opinion has swayed dramatically.

http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=sportsnation&pollId=4679268

Google the poll question "After listening to Bill Belichick's impassioned declaration that the Patriots did nothing wrong, do you believe him?".

The poll question only exists @ http://espn.go.com/boston/

 

[GroveDiesel]

Bill Nye on GMA this morning said that what Bellichick said "makes no sense."

But I'm sure it's Nye that has no clue and BB's "science" yesterday was indisputable.

 

[JIslander]

Its over now. Bill Bye has spoke.

Love it how Pats are just so much smarter than the rest of the league but play dumb about the pressure change.

 

[Niles Standish]

Either way. The NFL hired a private investigative group and a private legal firm. Even if you think the NFL might cover up info the private groups will not. That could land them in jail.

Scuffing them up in a dryer (or whatever) right before handing them off to the ref seems sketchy (since you could scuff them up for days/weeks ahead of time instead), but it's plausible.

So unless there's e-mail or documentary evidence that they explored how to game the PSI rules what's the private group going to find that would keep this going?

It's not hard for the NFL to say show us how you prepared the balls. And even if we believe the NFL is incompetent I'd hope the investigatory firm isn't. We don't have all the info yet. And you can keep asking questions until then or even after depending on what we hear from the investigation. But making up imaginary conspiracy theories that require the NFL and 2 independent groups to lie and put themselves at risk of jail time based on info we don't know yet seems sort of silly. But you know that.

 

[GoBirds]

I think the league just has to let it go, unless they want to compromise the Superbowl. Even if they can disprove BB claims it will only make the league and potential champ look even worse in a year they don't need that.

Maybe the do something after the fact if they lose and it doesn't taint the winning team.

Seriously? Do you think the independent law firm and investigation firm that were hired will join the conspiracy? Do you think if the NFL has proof it won't leak out?I understand you're a Seahawks fan so you want to believe the Pats cheated if they win. But you sound beyond ridiculous.

If the Pats cheated it will be exposed.

Wrong birds definitely not Seahawks fan. Last I heard the NFL hadn't even interviewed Brady....didn't sound like they were too motivated.

Either way. The NFL hired a private investigative group and a private legal firm. Even if you think the NFL might cover up info the private groups will not. That could land them in jail.

Land them in jail, that's funny. I think they just give a warning and let it go.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I think Bostonian Bob Ryan said it well on Sports Reporters just now when he said that, while this is only a misdemeanor, Belichick created this aura, and thus has to live with it.

 

[shader]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

Go ask the colts.It really doesn't matter. The few remaining ones left who are still confused because they didn't follow yesterday's events are likely wondering what happened.

But it's simple. Psi changes. BB proved that. Who cares about what the psi is for this and the psi is for that. That really wasn't his point. His point is that psi isn't an exact science, it changes based in a variety of factors, and the NFL has no business investigating psi during a game, as in cold weather games psi is likely to be far lower than it was when the officials measured it.

Go ask the Colts? Nice cop out.

BB kind of lost all credibility in the press conference when he said they don't do anything that would cross the line or even approach the line.

it was the NFL that lost credibility yesterday not Belichick. He just exposed what a silly, meaningkess investigation #deflategate was.

 

[Morton Muffley]

media is so lazy...anyone can do a simulation...All the haters should keep their pie holes shut unless they actually did a simulation and found that weather, moisture does not lower PSI...OR since they are lazy, just read the Carnegie Mellon report.

I can't believe how dumb our society has gotten.

Awesome! Everyone but me seems to know what they did. What exactly did they do? I'd like to recreate the experiment.

Well, instead of being lazy like the media and putting the burden of proof on a non scientist who is preparing for the SB why don't you run your own experiments. I will help you out with a starting point. I just ran the calculations to see what temp is needed to increase a ball from 11.5psi to 12.5psi. I assumed a starting temp of 68 degrees Fahrenheit and the calc shows that the "process" would need to increase the air temp inside the football to 88 degrees Fahrenheit. So maybe you could show how this is an impossibility under the most vigorous rubbing/scrubbing conditions.

FYI, for the salty haters saying that it would need to be higher than that because as soon as you stopped the process it would fall back to equilibrium fairly quickly I would suggest that the Patriots are likely contending that they take the psi immediately after the rubbing process and thus any fallback to equilibrium is the responsibility of the referees who likely receive a ball UNDER the specified 12.5.

 

[ROCKET]

So how is that still not cheating when you know the end result is what Brady wants? A ball less than legal psi.

The problem is there is zero proof that the Patriots knew that the psi of the ball would drop after roughing it up. They didn't test the balls with a guage after getting them ready for play, they roughed them up, gave them to the refs and said 12.5 psi is our desired pressure (which the refs probably never even bothered to think about prior to the AFCG). They roughed them up for texture and feel only, not hardness (psi).

So you have an assumption that the Pats knew what was happening to the balls after scuffing them up? Where is the proof of that?

Also would the scuffing of the balls even get the ball under 12.5 psi in 80 degree weather? This would have only worked in cold conditions. Just a point, not relevant to the AFCG.

I'm not saying they didn't know, they most likely did.I think some of you need to start thinking about what can be proven and what actual evidence there is? Just assuming a theory doesn't convict even if it makes perfect sense.

Unless someone from the Pats comes out and admits they had knowledge that the ball psi was changing after the rubbing nothing is happening. What do you think the likelihood of that is? There is going to be a lot of disappointed people when this is resolved.