Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

media is so lazy...anyone can do a simulation...All the haters should keep their pie holes shut unless they actually did a simulation and found that weather, moisture does not lower PSI...OR since they are lazy, just read the Carnegie Mellon report.

I can't believe how dumb our society has gotten.

Awesome! Everyone but me seems to know what they did. What exactly did they do? I'd like to recreate the experiment.

Recreate this: Rub a ball, observe pressure increase. Put ball in cold temperatures, observe pressure decrease.

Rub them with what? For how long? All 12 at once? What if the first one is deflated again by the time I get done with the 12th?

Science is hard, guys.

 

[GoBirds]

Guys, Belichick said that poop is really chocolate.

He even did experiments!! He said so and he is known throughout the land as being very honest. He is not a scientist by any means...but experiments! Poop is chocolate!

Now this Bill Nye guy, with his fancy "education", claims that poop really isn't chocolate.

But has he done experiments to prove that?? I don't want his "scientist opinion" that poop and chocolate are different...that is worthless! Do the experiments Mr Nye! Also, he is a "celebrity scientist"...the worst kind! Bill Nye won't do experiments to show that poop is not chocolate. Belichick did, so that clearly settles it. Poop is chocolate! Experiments, not "opinions"! Science is for nerds!

Basically.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

Go ask the colts.

It really doesn't matter. The few remaining ones left who are still confused because they didn't follow yesterday's events are likely wondering what happened.

But it's simple. Psi changes. BB proved that. Who cares about what the psi is for this and the psi is for that. That really wasn't his point. His point is that psi isn't an exact science, it changes based in a variety of factors, and the NFL has no business investigating psi during a game, as in cold weather games psi is likely to be far lower than it was when the officials measured it.

Go ask the Colts? Nice cop out.

BB kind of lost all credibility in the press conference when he said they don't do anything that would cross the line or even approach the line.

Link to anything that he has done since Spygate that has crossed the line?

So we are going to just ignore spygate when he claims they don't do anything that approaches the line? Didn't they get fined a small amount for that? He can claim he wasn't doing anything that anybody else wasn't doing. But that doesn't mean he wasn't crossing or approaching the line.

Were you listening to the presser? He said they got punished for that and have not done anything since then that crosses the line of the rules since that happened. Many people seem to think this is incorrect, but when asked, can't give any other times where they have crossed the lines. This "culture of cheating" crap is just ignorant.

 

[DropKick]

OverInflateGate:

If league statements and leaks are to be believed (big if), the Colts went into the AFC Championship concerned about ball pressure, spoke to the refs about it, and the refs measured both teams balls pre-game with a gauge. This happened in the ref's locker room, which I'd assume is kept at around 70 degrees.

How is it possible that the Colt's balls didn't lose pressure due to the at least 20 and as much as 40 degree temperature drop over more than 3 hours?

Nobody is disputing that pressure drops as temperature drops. Science and whatnot. And over the more than 3 hour game I don't believe there's any question that the balls would have reached equalibrium with the outside temperature.

Regardless of what did or didn't happen with the Patriots' balls, it is simply not possible that the Colts balls did not change pressure from early afternoon in a 70 degree room until early evening in a 40ish degree wet outdoors without some outside influence - what we can call "tampering".

It must be the case that either the refs did not measure pregame, and/or halftime, and/or postgame (meaning the NFL is lying) and/or the Colts, knowing they were making an issue about this, did something to counter the natural and inevitable effects of colder temperature, such as pre-inflate with cold air or inflate the balls during the game.

We have to ask why the NFL wouldn't be investigating the Colts now, knowing that their balls somehow escaped the laws of physics at the exact same time they knew they'd be accusing the Pats of wrongdoing.

The simplest explanation would be that the refs didn't really do a precise measurement before, during, or after the game. This seems to be confirmed by former refs and ballboys who say a casual squeeze was usually the inspection method of choice.

On the other hand, the Colts are not first-time offenders in trying to gain a competitive advantage by toeing the line, crossing it, or even trying to have it moved. For example, pumping in crowd noise in an attempt to artificially and illegally assist the Colts defense by making it harder for opposing offenses to communicate. Or, for example, whining to have pass-defense rules changed when they couldn't beat the best teams in the league under then current rules. Or, for example, manipulating the competitiveness of an entire league season by purposely losing in a shameless (yet successful) effort to win Andrew Luck, the media's heir-apparent to Peyton Manning and Tom Brady.

We should also recognize that the Colts' owner is a drug addled convict with such bad judgment that he would risk other people's lives driving on pain meds - an offense so serious that the league fined him $500,000 and suspended him for six games (a punishment harsher even than that sustained by Bill Belichick for Spygate). If he'd willingly risk killing others for drugs, he probably wouldn't be above tampering with footballs. Irsay's judgment, honesty, and motive are susceptible to question.

Given that sordid history we could be excused for assuming the Colts are up to something and demanding that they them prove their own innocence.

Yet, the NFL isn't above suspicion either. The NFL is the very league that allowed the Colts to engage in the various illegal shenanigans detailed above, that changed it's own rules to benefit the Colts' former golden boy (Manning), and watched happily as they tanked to earn the league's new golden boy (Luck). The NFL is the league that has pushed the media story of the "passing of the torch" from Manning and Brady to Luck, most intensely during the current playoffs.

And, the league certainly is no fan of the Patriots or Belichick. The league fined Belichick a record amount for a cameraman standing in the wrong place - out in the open rather than in an enclosed area - when filming another team's defensive signals. The league allowed the Patriots to dangle in the wind as that story grew out-of-control and the Pats were falsely of taping another team's walkthrough - despite a thorough investigation proving this not to be the case. And now, too, the league has allowed the allegations against the Pats to stand by dragging its feet on the "investigation" of how balls might deflate during a temperature drop - despite the league not caring in the least what the pressure is in a football, so long as it's stars - the quarterbacks - are happy.

The league also has suffered it's own self-inflicted PR wounds recently due to the mis-handling of serious incidents such as WhipSon-Gate, KillDog-Gate, and Knockthe#####OutInElevator-Gate, to name just a few. Certainly it would be in the league's interest to focus come down hard on the team fans love to hate for a perceived minor rule infraction.

Which leads to another question - could it be that the NFL allowed it's own agenda of "catching" the Patriots to hurt the purity of the AFC Championship? Could it be that the league instructed it's refs to force the Colts to play with artificially over-inflated balls? Could the league have tampered with the Colt's balls, re-inflating them for the second half instead of letting them acclimate to the cold air and deflate as naturally happens in every other cold weather game in league history?

The Patriots are the only party involved in this controversy that has openly addressed the matter, agreed to fully cooperate with others, and layed their cards on the table. It's time for the Colts and the NFL to come clean.

Lengthy and passionate response... but too many variables and this is why I'm waiting for the facts to come out (if they ever do)...

Maybe Luck (like Rodgers) likes a higher PSI and requested 13.5 PSI... so there was a drop.

I doubt the NFL has it in for any franchise.

 

[shader]

What would it take for Pats haters to believe the Pats did nothing wrong?

Are you guys even willing to consider that option?

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

For example, the guys at HeadSmart Labs did an experiment that concluded:

The study indicated that the pressure in the footballs used in the AFC Championship game could have dropped 1.95 PSI from weather and field conditions alone.

Yet that would mean that even balls fully inflated to 13.5 PSI would end the game at ~11.5 PSI.

And we have reports that say the Colts balls were within limit (above 12.5 PSI) for the entire four hour period -- i.e. none of those footballs fell even one PSI during the game.

 

[Touchdown Syndrome]

What would it take for Pats haters to believe the Pats did nothing wrong?

Are you guys even willing to consider that option?

On a serious note, i am willing to consider that.Like many here, though, Im just getting a kick out of this thread.

 

[12punch]

media is so lazy...anyone can do a simulation...All the haters should keep their pie holes shut unless they actually did a simulation and found that weather, moisture does not lower PSI...OR since they are lazy, just read the Carnegie Mellon report.

I can't believe how dumb our society has gotten.

Awesome! Everyone but me seems to know what they did. What exactly did they do? I'd like to recreate the experiment.

Recreate this: Rub a ball, observe pressure increase. Put ball in cold temperatures, observe pressure decrease.

Rub them with what? For how long?

keep rubbing until something happens

 

[KarmaPolice]

I would think that a lot of teams have to be a little crabby with the Colts right now. In light of this I would imagine something is going to change as far as the process of the footballs.

Where does the details on equipment stop? I think I want to make sure that Beast Mode's cleats aren't 1mm off, causing him to have slightly better footing, causing him to be the rb he has been for years. I also might want to check the stickiness of every single WR glove to make sure they are exactly within range too. Hope no shoulder pads are slightly lighter so somebody can run faster! Where are the rules for all of this, it could get fun.

 

[Old Smiley]

has anyone got a link to the text of Belichicks statement handy?

http://espn.go.com/blog/boston/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4777049/transcript-bill-belichicks-defense-of-the-patriots

 

[randall146]

Right. I suggested a within range drop as an obvious explanation several times. But the salty haterz keep asking "why didn't the colts balls drop!?!?"

I thought an absurd and conspiracal scenario would be more to their liking

 

[KarmaPolice]

What would it take for Pats haters to believe the Pats did nothing wrong?

Are you guys even willing to consider that option?

Honestly, all of us at this point are waiting for hard numbers from the league. I still open to the idea that they did something if the numbers don't add up. However, I am with you in thinking that they didn't give two craps about this before the last couple weeks, and probably don't have much in that department to something concrete either way. I think even after the NFL comes out with their findings, we will be having the same doubts and debates.

The Patriots did the extremely smart thing of coming out with what they know ahead of the league, and that put even more pressure on the league to disprove what Bill was talking about.

 

[moleculo]

just watched the head smart video. That's pretty compelling, IMO. I hadn't considered the balls being wet - that could have two effects: (1) the water allows the leather to relax and stretch. if the leather stretches, PV=nRT simplifies differently. All of the previous calculations assume a constant volume, and the match changes. It wouldn't take a large effect on volume to have a significant change in temperature. (2) a wet ball would also have some evaporative cooling effects - when water evaporates, it cools. Now, water wasn't evaporating off of the surface of the football outside because the R.H. was 100% (i.e. it was raining), but as soon as you bring it inside a heated space with lower R.H, the balls would start to dry, potentially lowering their temperature further.

The obvious question then - if a 2.0 psi drop happened to the Pats balls, why not the Colts balls? The only speculation I have for that (based on information available right now), is that the balls were not measured at 50 dF at halftime, they were allowed to warm up first and were closer to room temp before measurements were taken. If all 12 Patriots balls were measured first, they would show a lower temperature than the Colts balls - i.e. colts balls would have additional time to acclimate to ambient room temp, and therefore would see a smaller delta T.

So, I now will say that it's entirely plausible that atmospheric conditions could have caused the differences here. The NFL's study will be more definitive and I await those results.

I would also like to point out that lack of evidence is not proof of innocence. If the Pats ultimately don't get caught from this game doesn't mean they haven't engaged in shenanigans in the past. None of the above science would hold up for a game played indoors - in Indianapolis, for example.

 

[12punch]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

Go ask the colts.

It really doesn't matter. The few remaining ones left who are still confused because they didn't follow yesterday's events are likely wondering what happened.

But it's simple. Psi changes. BB proved that. Who cares about what the psi is for this and the psi is for that. That really wasn't his point. His point is that psi isn't an exact science, it changes based in a variety of factors, and the NFL has no business investigating psi during a game, as in cold weather games psi is likely to be far lower than it was when the officials measured it.

Go ask the Colts? Nice cop out.

BB kind of lost all credibility in the press conference when he said they don't do anything that would cross the line or even approach the line.

Link to anything that he has done since Spygate that has crossed the line?

So we are going to just ignore spygate

I've been ignoring it for years -- can't speak for anybody else, though

 

[Rubi]

So let me see if I have the NFL's stance correct. Tom Brady,or any qb for that matter,can rub his balls before a game until they "feel right",as long as those balls don't under or over inflate too much. But if Marshawn Lynch,or any other player for that matter,rubs his balls DURING a game,it's an automatic fine. Does that sound about right? <_<

 

[((Morpheus))]

For example, the guys at HeadSmart Labs did an experiment that concluded:

The study indicated that the pressure in the footballs used in the AFC Championship game could have dropped 1.95 PSI from weather and field conditions alone.

Yet that would mean that even balls fully inflated to 13.5 PSI would end the game at ~11.5 PSI.And we have reports that say the Colts balls were within limit (above 12.5 PSI) for the entire four hour period -- i.e. none of those footballs fell even one PSI during the game.

Mort's report? Yuhuh. Still waiting on the NFL's before and after measurements for all 24 balls.

 

[rjv]

What would it take for Pats haters to believe the Pats did nothing wrong?

Are you guys even willing to consider that option

Anything short of an admission is unacceptable.

 

[rjv]

What would it take for Pats haters to believe the Pats did nothing wrong?

Are you guys even willing to consider that option?

Honestly, all of us at this point are waiting for hard numbers from the league. I still open to the idea that they did something if the numbers don't add up. However, I am with you in thinking that they didn't give two craps about this before the last couple weeks, and probably don't have much in that department to something concrete either way. I think even after the NFL comes out with their findings, we will be having the same doubts and debates.

The Patriots did the extremely smart thing of coming out with what they know ahead of the league, and that put even more pressure on the league to disprove what Bill was talking about.

I'm actually is agreement with the bold part but man BB answering questions from the press is hard on the eyes. This guy is so arrogant and unprofessional is sickening.

 

[GoBirds]

So let me see if I have the NFL's stance correct. Tom Brady,or any qb for that matter,can rub his balls before a game until they "feel right",as long as those balls don't under or over inflate too much. But if Marshawn Lynch,or any other player for that matter,rubs his balls DURING a game,it's an automatic fine. Does that sound about right? <_<

Best post of thread.

 

[General Tso]

For example, the guys at HeadSmart Labs did an experiment that concluded:

The study indicated that the pressure in the footballs used in the AFC Championship game could have dropped 1.95 PSI from weather and field conditions alone.

Yet that would mean that even balls fully inflated to 13.5 PSI would end the game at ~11.5 PSI.And we have reports that say the Colts balls were within limit (above 12.5 PSI) for the entire four hour period -- i.e. none of those footballs fell even one PSI during the game.

So then why the #### isn't the NFL investigating the Colts for possible inflation of the balls on the sidelines?I mean, you have such a bias toward a conclusion that you want to believe that you are completely negating a scientific experiement done by one of the most prestigious engineering colleges in the country.

 

[Old Smiley]

Mea Culpa. I'm one of those whose main issue was whether or not the referees were actually putting a meter on the balls in the pregame inspection. I have to acknowlege that my argument is dead. Ahem. On to Glendale.

 

[ROCKET]

I am still impressed at the inside sources that wcdrob has within the NFL. He's been better than Mort or Schefter as far as gathering info. regarding ball pressures and testing that was done in the AFCG. Truly amazing. Keep up the good work. Anxiously awaiting updates, can I follow you on twitter?

 

[KarmaPolice]

So let me see if I have the NFL's stance correct. Tom Brady,or any qb for that matter,can rub his balls before a game until they "feel right",as long as those balls don't under or over inflate too much. But if Marshawn Lynch,or any other player for that matter,rubs his balls DURING a game,it's an automatic fine. Does that sound about right? <_<

But think of the kids! They don't have to see Brady rubbing his balls.

 

[General Tso]

just watched the head smart video. That's pretty compelling, IMO. I hadn't considered the balls being wet - that could have two effects: (1) the water allows the leather to relax and stretch. if the leather stretches, PV=nRT simplifies differently. All of the previous calculations assume a constant volume, and the match changes. It wouldn't take a large effect on volume to have a significant change in temperature. (2) a wet ball would also have some evaporative cooling effects - when water evaporates, it cools. Now, water wasn't evaporating off of the surface of the football outside because the R.H. was 100% (i.e. it was raining), but as soon as you bring it inside a heated space with lower R.H, the balls would start to dry, potentially lowering their temperature further.

The obvious question then - if a 2.0 psi drop happened to the Pats balls, why not the Colts balls? The only speculation I have for that (based on information available right now), is that the balls were not measured at 50 dF at halftime, they were allowed to warm up first and were closer to room temp before measurements were taken. If all 12 Patriots balls were measured first, they would show a lower temperature than the Colts balls - i.e. colts balls would have additional time to acclimate to ambient room temp, and therefore would see a smaller delta T.

So, I now will say that it's entirely plausible that atmospheric conditions could have caused the differences here. The NFL's study will be more definitive and I await those results.

I would also like to point out that lack of evidence is not proof of innocence. If the Pats ultimately don't get caught from this game doesn't mean they haven't engaged in shenanigans in the past. None of the above science would hold up for a game played indoors - in Indianapolis, for example.

Shenanigans, huh? So what do you think happened exactly? You think the Patriots got the game balls 10 minutes before kickoff, when the national anthem was about to be sung, rushed the balls to the sidelines, then the ball boy used a needle and somehow managed to take out exactly 2 psi on 12 balls - with nobody seeing - when there are a million cameras in the stadium and the NFL is watching them?Here's a video of how difficult it would be for a ball boy to pull off such tampering... http://www.theczabe.com/the-post/nimble-hand-0-65-seconds-can/

 

[cmv5]

For example, the guys at HeadSmart Labs did an experiment that concluded:

The study indicated that the pressure in the footballs used in the AFC Championship game could have dropped 1.95 PSI from weather and field conditions alone.

Yet that would mean that even balls fully inflated to 13.5 PSI would end the game at ~11.5 PSI.And we have reports that say the Colts balls were within limit (above 12.5 PSI) for the entire four hour period -- i.e. none of those footballs fell even one PSI during the game.

So then why the #### isn't the NFL investigating the Colts for possible inflation of the balls on the sidelines?I mean, you have such a bias toward a conclusion that you want to believe that you are completely negating a scientific experiement done by one of the most prestigious engineering colleges in the country.

Are you saying you don't have a bias in this? You really are considering this from both perspectives?

 

[the moops]

I still can't believe that footballs are even allowed to be manipulated in any fashion by quarterbacks. It is so dumb. Game balls should be game balls. Teams should use the same ones.

So dumb

 

[otello]

I think Bostonian Bob Ryan said it well on Sports Reporters just now when he said that, while this is only a misdemeanor, Belichick created this aura, and thus has to live with it.

They didn't even do anything! They were completely innocent. That's the point.

I thought that this scandal is over. Your work is done here. The only people that should be here are salty haters and people who are waiting for the results of the investigation.

 

[adamjw2]

I'm not reading through all of the posts since BB's presser, but I have 3 questions:

BB said that the Pats "prepare" the ball supposedly by roughing them up, to Brady's liking. Then they give them to the refs and have them adjust the ball to 12.5 PSI. Tom Brady has said he likes the ball at 12.5 PSI. If the balls are prepared to Brady's liking, that would imply that they are inflated to 12.5 PSI. Why the need to then ask the refs to inflate them to 12.5 PSI? Shouldn't that already be the case?

Why were all the Colts balls within the official range, if the weather actually caused the change in PSI of the Pat's footballs?

Why didn't the 2nd half balls deflate, since the same "science" that BB refers to should have applied to them?

I understand that scientific tests can be repeated, but in this case, the tests already were repeated, during the 2nd half, and the control group (Colts footballs) and the 2nd test (2nd half) don't support the idea of atmospheric changes. As for the "internal study" that BB mentions (in which he failed to specify exactly what they did) would seem to be coming from a biased group of "scientists" since they obviously had something to gain by producing the result that they are reporting.

Go ask the colts.

It really doesn't matter. The few remaining ones left who are still confused because they didn't follow yesterday's events are likely wondering what happened.

But it's simple. Psi changes. BB proved that. Who cares about what the psi is for this and the psi is for that. That really wasn't his point. His point is that psi isn't an exact science, it changes based in a variety of factors, and the NFL has no business investigating psi during a game, as in cold weather games psi is likely to be far lower than it was when the officials measured it.

Go ask the Colts? Nice cop out.

BB kind of lost all credibility in the press conference when he said they don't do anything that would cross the line or even approach the line.

Link to anything that he has done since Spygate that has crossed the line?

So we are going to just ignore spygate when he claims they don't do anything that approaches the line? Didn't they get fined a small amount for that? He can claim he wasn't doing anything that anybody else wasn't doing. But that doesn't mean he wasn't crossing or approaching the line.

Were you listening to the presser? He said they got punished for that and have not done anything since then that crosses the line of the rules since that happened. Many people seem to think this is incorrect, but when asked, can't give any other times where they have crossed the lines. This "culture of cheating" crap is just ignorant.

But that's exactly the reason this is even a big deal at all, unfortunately, because of having been caught cheating in the past. If Gisele caught Tom cheating on her in the past, the next time she sees a ketchup stain on his shirt collar, she has reason to suspect he was cheating again.

 

[General Tso]

By the way, while we have moleculo and wdcrob in the building... Not a very good source but it's worth putting out there that there is a report out there that the NFL did not, in fact, test the balls properly pregame, contrary to your assertions that gauges were used.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/01/24/new-england-patriots-deflate-gate-nfl-superbowl-disqualified/

 

[Rubi]

So let me see if I have the NFL's stance correct. Tom Brady,or any qb for that matter,can rub his balls before a game until they "feel right",as long as those balls don't under or over inflate too much. But if Marshawn Lynch,or any other player for that matter,rubs his balls DURING a game,it's an automatic fine. Does that sound about right? <_<

But think of the kids! They don't have to see Brady rubbing his balls.

The NFL HAS thought of the kids,at least during the Super Bowl they're going after the coveted 7 year old girl demographic with "Elsa" singing the national anthem and Katy Perry at halftime. You would think they would WANT Brady rubbing his balls DURING a game to attract more of the 18-80 year old female demographic.

 

[GrandpaRox]

Where's Belichick's evidence? I want to see his data. You guys claim that he did experiments and "science" and yet I see no data sets. Please provide, TIA

True. Belichick needs to show his work first. His word is not showing his work. Unless you're a Patriots fan.

If it is not over for you, it is over for the Patriots until after the SB. When asked a question they will simply refer them to the press conference.

It is all on the NFL now. Case closed at least until after the game. Probably for good actually.

 

[the moops]

Nye is definitely trolling as a Seahawk fan, right? He states that the only way to reduce pressure is with a needle???

 

[Old Smiley]

Nye is a ripoff of Beakman and he was never as good!

 

[cvnpoka]

media is so lazy...anyone can do a simulation...All the haters should keep their pie holes shut unless they actually did a simulation and found that weather, moisture does not lower PSI...OR since they are lazy, just read the Carnegie Mellon report.

I can't believe how dumb our society has gotten.

Awesome! Everyone but me seems to know what they did. What exactly did they do? I'd like to recreate the experiment.

Well, instead of being lazy like the media and putting the burden of proof on a non scientist who is preparing for the SB why don't you run your own experiments. I will help you out with a starting point. I just ran the calculations to see what temp is needed to increase a ball from 11.5psi to 12.5psi. I assumed a starting temp of 68 degrees Fahrenheit and the calc shows that the "process" would need to increase the air temp inside the football to 88 degrees Fahrenheit. So maybe you could show how this is an impossibility under the most vigorous rubbing/scrubbing conditions.

FYI, for the salty haters saying that it would need to be higher than that because as soon as you stopped the process it would fall back to equilibrium fairly quickly I would suggest that the Patriots are likely contending that they take the psi immediately after the rubbing process and thus any fallback to equilibrium is the responsibility of the referees who likely receive a ball UNDER the specified 12.5.

when the ball is returned from the cold environment back to the warm environment, it would not regain all of the lost psi regardless. the pressure would rise some, but not all.

 

[moleculo]

By the way, while we have moleculo and wdcrob in the building... Not a very good source but it's worth putting out there that there is a report out there that the NFL did not, in fact, test the balls properly pregame, contrary to your assertions that gauges were used.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/01/24/new-england-patriots-deflate-gate-nfl-superbowl-disqualified/

Lol @ Hollywood life.com.

 

[12punch]

And what the New England Patriots’ deflate-gate has brought attention to is that NFL players, mostly quarterbacks and kickers, are quite particular about the condition of the footballs they use in games. Longtime kicker Nick Lowery once slapped a Patriots ball boy over it.

You can’t even blame Bill Belichick for this one. It happened in 1995, pre-Belichick (he joined the Patriots as an assistant the next year, and has been their head coach since 2000). According to the New York Times story from then, Jets kicker Lowery wasn’t happy the Jets were kicking balls that had not been rubbed up in the cold. He complained to the Patriots’ 20-year-old ball boy, who told Lowery it wasn’t his job to provide him a rubbed-up football, and then Lowery slapped him. These balls are serious stuff.

But what does it mean, rubbing up balls? Don’t teams just break out new footballs for each game?

No, no and no.

In 2013 the New York Times did a fascinating story talking about the process in which the Giants prepare balls for quarterback Eli Manning, so they’re to his liking. It takes months.

According to the Times story, the balls are rubbed vigorously for 45 minutes to remove the wax and darken the leather (new balls are too slick, quarterbacks will say). The Giants soak the ball with a wet towel. Then it is brushed again. Then it’s off to an electric spin wheel for more scrubbing. Then the process is repeated twice more. They practice with those balls to break them in even further, and then the ones deemed fit for games are protected like the president.

“No one is allowed to touch those balls,” team’s equipment director Joe Skiba told the Times. “They’re precious jewels. Too much work has gone into them.”
Quarterbacks are particular about the footballs they use. In 2006, Peyton Manning and Tom Brady teamed up to lobby the NFL competition committee to allow each team to provide its own footballs for games, so they could be to the quarterbacks’ liking. Home teams provided all the balls before that, and quarterbacks didn’t like the differences in the balls for each road game. The committee passed it, and now each team provides 12 balls for officials to inspect two hours and 15 minutes before the game.

There hasn't been much of an outrage from many former and current players about this story. Shaun King, a former NFL quarterback who works for Yahoo, said the whole deflate-gate isn’t a big deal. Every quarterback, he said, will do things to break in their footballs.

“Every quarterback does whatever they deem necessary to have their balls the way they like them,” King said. “This is a pure witch hunt the NFL and sports media is on.”

Former NFL quarterback Matt Leinart agreed that the whole story is no big deal, on his Twitter account.

Every team tampers with the footballs. Ask any Qb In the league, this is ridiculous!!
— Matt Leinart (@MattLeinartQB)
https://twitter.com/MattLeinartQB/status/557943575585882112January 21, 2015
https://twitter.com/MattLeinartQB/status/557943575585882112

http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nfl-shutdown-corner/nfl-players-very-particular-about-footballs--tricks-to-get-them-right-194020439.html

When Tony Banks was a quarterback with the Houston Texans, he once told his teammate David Carr that Brady liked the balls so broken in that it looked as if he had been using them since junior high school.

“I relate it to an old baseball glove,” Brady said in a telephone interview. “If you have a glove, when you get it right from the store, the leather is very stiff and very difficult to break in. The preservative on the football, when you get it off, it’s easier to get a grip. It’s having a ball that doesn’t slip out of your hands.”

Even the most successful quarterbacks morph into panicky meteorologists, versed in the perceived impact of altitude and humidity on a football. Some become amateur experts in leather tanning. Others indulge their inner witch doctor, with some suspected of using evaporated milk, mink oil or a dip in the whirlpool to get the leather just so.

When Manning and Brady approached other quarterbacks to seek their signatures on a petition in support of the rule change, younger quarterbacks especially embraced the move.

In high school and college, teams are allowed to use their own balls, and they are not as rigorous about using new balls as the N.F.L. College quarterbacks may use the same ball game after game until it is so broken in they can squeeze it. There is a theory that when those quarterbacks reach the N.F.L. and deal with less-pliable new balls every week, they fumble more.

Carr, like several other quarterbacks, said Denver was one of the toughest places to play. He said he thought the ball expanded slightly at the altitude and felt slick because of the lower humidity. Before Houston’s preseason game at Denver, Carr instructed the ball boys to let a little air out of the Texans’ footballs.

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/03/sports/football/03football.html?fta=y&_r=0

“We had a little petition going around . . . and got 20 quarterbacks to sign the petition,” Manning said earlier this season. “We tracked Steve [McNair] down in Mississippi. Everybody faxed their petition back pretty much the next day. It was pretty much a no-brainer on trying to get that changed because it just makes sense. . . . Nobody wants to see a receiver wide open and the ball two-hopped to him because the ball is slick.”
To Manning, the rule would prohibit a home team from suddenly handing a visiting quarterback a brand-new football, all shiny and slick, for an important drive with two minutes left in a tight game. “If [a bad throw happens] because somebody is at the quarterback’s feet, that’s one thing,” Manning said, “but not because of a bad football.”
Footballs may be months in the making, as Eli Manning’s are. The New York Giants quarterback was willing to tell Bill Pennington of the New York Times in 2013 what he looks for from Joe Skiba, the team’s equipment director, and his brother Ed, the assistant equipment director. “I want a brand new ball that feels like it’s 10 years old,” Manning told Pennington. “You want it to feel like it’s been in your house for 10 years, where you’ve been playing Saturday afternoon games with it for a long time. I want it broken in, but it should still have nubs on it. The process has gotten better as we’ve changed some schemes and techniques. We’ve honed in what works.”

Brady didn’t reveal anything about the process the Patriots use, but he displayed the same obsession about the game balls he selects each week. “When I pick those footballs out, at that point, to me, they’re perfect,” he said in a Thursday press conference. “I don’t want anyone touching my balls after that. I don’t want anyone rubbing them, you know, putting any air in them, taking any air out

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/early-lead/wp/2015/01/24/how-the-nfl-tom-brady-peyton-manning-and-other-qbs-created-deflategame/

 

[moleculo]

media is so lazy...anyone can do a simulation...All the haters should keep their pie holes shut unless they actually did a simulation and found that weather, moisture does not lower PSI...OR since they are lazy, just read the Carnegie Mellon report.

I can't believe how dumb our society has gotten.

Awesome! Everyone but me seems to know what they did. What exactly did they do? I'd like to recreate the experiment.

Well, instead of being lazy like the media and putting the burden of proof on a non scientist who is preparing for the SB why don't you run your own experiments. I will help you out with a starting point. I just ran the calculations to see what temp is needed to increase a ball from 11.5psi to 12.5psi. I assumed a starting temp of 68 degrees Fahrenheit and the calc shows that the "process" would need to increase the air temp inside the football to 88 degrees Fahrenheit. So maybe you could show how this is an impossibility under the most vigorous rubbing/scrubbing conditions.FYI, for the salty haters saying that it would need to be higher than that because as soon as you stopped the process it would fall back to equilibrium fairly quickly I would suggest that the Patriots are likely contending that they take the psi immediately after the rubbing process and thus any fallback to equilibrium is the responsibility of the referees who likely receive a ball UNDER the specified 12.5.

when the ball is returned from the cold environment back to the warm environment, it would not regain all of the lost psi regardless. the pressure would rise some, but not all.

Why?

 

[Old Smiley]

By the way, while we have moleculo and wdcrob in the building... Not a very good source but it's worth putting out there that there is a report out there that the NFL did not, in fact, test the balls properly pregame, contrary to your assertions that gauges were used.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/01/24/new-england-patriots-deflate-gate-nfl-superbowl-disqualified/

Lol @ Hollywood life.com.

Lol @ ESPN.com

 

[moleculo]

just watched the head smart video. That's pretty compelling, IMO. I hadn't considered the balls being wet - that could have two effects: (1) the water allows the leather to relax and stretch. if the leather stretches, PV=nRT simplifies differently. All of the previous calculations assume a constant volume, and the match changes. It wouldn't take a large effect on volume to have a significant change in temperature. (2) a wet ball would also have some evaporative cooling effects - when water evaporates, it cools. Now, water wasn't evaporating off of the surface of the football outside because the R.H. was 100% (i.e. it was raining), but as soon as you bring it inside a heated space with lower R.H, the balls would start to dry, potentially lowering their temperature further.

The obvious question then - if a 2.0 psi drop happened to the Pats balls, why not the Colts balls? The only speculation I have for that (based on information available right now), is that the balls were not measured at 50 dF at halftime, they were allowed to warm up first and were closer to room temp before measurements were taken. If all 12 Patriots balls were measured first, they would show a lower temperature than the Colts balls - i.e. colts balls would have additional time to acclimate to ambient room temp, and therefore would see a smaller delta T.

So, I now will say that it's entirely plausible that atmospheric conditions could have caused the differences here. The NFL's study will be more definitive and I await those results.

I would also like to point out that lack of evidence is not proof of innocence. If the Pats ultimately don't get caught from this game doesn't mean they haven't engaged in shenanigans in the past. None of the above science would hold up for a game played indoors - in Indianapolis, for example.

Shenanigans, huh? So what do you think happened exactly? You think the Patriots got the game balls 10 minutes before kickoff, when the national anthem was about to be sung, rushed the balls to the sidelines, then the ball boy used a needle and somehow managed to take out exactly 2 psi on 12 balls - with nobody seeing - when there are a million cameras in the stadium and the NFL is watching them?Here's a video of how difficult it would be for a ball boy to pull off such tampering... http://www.theczabe.com/the-post/nimble-hand-0-65-seconds-can/

I already speculated once, I'm not going to do it again.BTW, I also posted I could make a device that could deflate a football to precisely 10.5 psi in 10 seconds or less. It would be smaller than a pack of gum and cost less than $20.

 

[Touchdown Syndrome]

By the way, while we have moleculo and wdcrob in the building... Not a very good source but it's worth putting out there that there is a report out there that the NFL did not, in fact, test the balls properly pregame, contrary to your assertions that gauges were used.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/01/24/new-england-patriots-deflate-gate-nfl-superbowl-disqualified/

Lol @ Hollywood life.com.

I also read a riveting report on newenglandmommybloggermoonlandingfaked.info that recreated the ball-rubbing and agreed with pats and also reported that NFL hates the Pats and this was a false flag operation.

#caseclosed

 

[KingPrawn]

What would it take for Pats haters to believe the Pats did nothing wrong?

Are you guys even willing to consider that option?

On a serious note, i am willing to consider that.Like many here, though, Im just getting a kick out of this thread.

^^^

This.

Not a "Pat hater". (And why is it that anybody that offers a different opinion is a Pat hater?) I'm actually hoping for a Pats win this Sunday. I like the Patriots organization and BB. I just don't believe that because BB had a press conference that everything is settled. I look at this as akin to stealing signs in baseball. Everybody does it. Anything to gain an edge. Not sure what the big deal is. Why the NFL has allowed this to dominate the conversation in what should be the biggest two weeks to promote the game is beyond me though. Goodell started the season by totally bungling the Ray Rice situation. Ending the season by totally bungling the Inflategate situation. For that he should be fired.

The rest is just messing with the rose-colored Patriots fans.

 

[espnespn]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxsXFX3tDpg&app=desktop

http://www.headsmartlabs.com/#in-the-news

This video from Carnegie Mellon scientists shows how they did their study. "The study indicated that the pressure in the footballs used in the AFC Championship game could have dropped 1.95 PSI from weather and field conditions alone."

If Bill Nye or some other people recreate the same experiment and get different results, I'd be interested in seeing that.

 

[Old Smiley]

just watched the head smart video. That's pretty compelling, IMO. I hadn't considered the balls being wet - that could have two effects: (1) the water allows the leather to relax and stretch. if the leather stretches, PV=nRT simplifies differently. All of the previous calculations assume a constant volume, and the match changes. It wouldn't take a large effect on volume to have a significant change in temperature. (2) a wet ball would also have some evaporative cooling effects - when water evaporates, it cools. Now, water wasn't evaporating off of the surface of the football outside because the R.H. was 100% (i.e. it was raining), but as soon as you bring it inside a heated space with lower R.H, the balls would start to dry, potentially lowering their temperature further.

The obvious question then - if a 2.0 psi drop happened to the Pats balls, why not the Colts balls? The only speculation I have for that (based on information available right now), is that the balls were not measured at 50 dF at halftime, they were allowed to warm up first and were closer to room temp before measurements were taken. If all 12 Patriots balls were measured first, they would show a lower temperature than the Colts balls - i.e. colts balls would have additional time to acclimate to ambient room temp, and therefore would see a smaller delta T.

So, I now will say that it's entirely plausible that atmospheric conditions could have caused the differences here. The NFL's study will be more definitive and I await those results.

I would also like to point out that lack of evidence is not proof of innocence. If the Pats ultimately don't get caught from this game doesn't mean they haven't engaged in shenanigans in the past. None of the above science would hold up for a game played indoors - in Indianapolis, for example.

Shenanigans, huh? So what do you think happened exactly? You think the Patriots got the game balls 10 minutes before kickoff, when the national anthem was about to be sung, rushed the balls to the sidelines, then the ball boy used a needle and somehow managed to take out exactly 2 psi on 12 balls - with nobody seeing - when there are a million cameras in the stadium and the NFL is watching them?Here's a video of how difficult it would be for a ball boy to pull off such tampering... http://www.theczabe.com/the-post/nimble-hand-0-65-seconds-can/

I already speculated once, I'm not going to do it again.BTW, I also posted I could make a device that could deflate a football to precisely 10.5 psi in 10 seconds or less. It would be smaller than a pack of gum and cost less than $20.

I don't think that's what we're talking about anymore. I think we're talking about whether the Pats submit warm game balls, instructing the refs to inflate them to the lowest psi by rule, and then let nature take its course.

Which, do you really want the league going down that rabbit hole on Superbowl week?

That's why I said my argument was dead. The refs fill the balls. You'd have to look pretty hard to find an air pump that didn't have a gauge on it.

 

[General Tso]

By the way, while we have moleculo and wdcrob in the building... Not a very good source but it's worth putting out there that there is a report out there that the NFL did not, in fact, test the balls properly pregame, contrary to your assertions that gauges were used.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/01/24/new-england-patriots-deflate-gate-nfl-superbowl-disqualified/

Lol @ Hollywood life.com.

Definitely not the Washington Post lol.

 

[KingPrawn]

By the way, while we have moleculo and wdcrob in the building... Not a very good source but it's worth putting out there that there is a report out there that the NFL did not, in fact, test the balls properly pregame, contrary to your assertions that gauges were used.

http://hollywoodlife.com/2015/01/24/new-england-patriots-deflate-gate-nfl-superbowl-disqualified/

Yeah, any article that starts with

"While many fans want the Patriots to be disqualified from the Super Bowl . . . " is hard to take seriously.

 

[JohnnyU]

All I know is that one team didn't have deflated balls and the other one did, end-of-story. I just wish the NFL would conclude their investigation and end it. The last couple days of posts in this thread are ridiculous.

 

[Old Smiley]

All I know is that one team didn't have deflated balls and the other one did, end-of-story. I just wish the NFL

Yeah, me too.

 

[squistion]

Michele Steele ‏@ESPNMichele ·

Words I didn't think I'd hear at the end of this NFL season: "bill nye the science guy not too popular with Pats fans right now"

 

[ROCKET]

just watched the head smart video. That's pretty compelling, IMO. I hadn't considered the balls being wet - that could have two effects: (1) the water allows the leather to relax and stretch. if the leather stretches, PV=nRT simplifies differently. All of the previous calculations assume a constant volume, and the match changes. It wouldn't take a large effect on volume to have a significant change in temperature. (2) a wet ball would also have some evaporative cooling effects - when water evaporates, it cools. Now, water wasn't evaporating off of the surface of the football outside because the R.H. was 100% (i.e. it was raining), but as soon as you bring it inside a heated space with lower R.H, the balls would start to dry, potentially lowering their temperature further.

The obvious question then - if a 2.0 psi drop happened to the Pats balls, why not the Colts balls? The only speculation I have for that (based on information available right now), is that the balls were not measured at 50 dF at halftime, they were allowed to warm up first and were closer to room temp before measurements were taken. If all 12 Patriots balls were measured first, they would show a lower temperature than the Colts balls - i.e. colts balls would have additional time to acclimate to ambient room temp, and therefore would see a smaller delta T.

So, I now will say that it's entirely plausible that atmospheric conditions could have caused the differences here. The NFL's study will be more definitive and I await those results.

I would also like to point out that lack of evidence is not proof of innocence. If the Pats ultimately don't get caught from this game doesn't mean they haven't engaged in shenanigans in the past. None of the above science would hold up for a game played indoors - in Indianapolis, for example.

Shenanigans, huh? So what do you think happened exactly? You think the Patriots got the game balls 10 minutes before kickoff, when the national anthem was about to be sung, rushed the balls to the sidelines, then the ball boy used a needle and somehow managed to take out exactly 2 psi on 12 balls - with nobody seeing - when there are a million cameras in the stadium and the NFL is watching them?Here's a video of how difficult it would be for a ball boy to pull off such tampering... http://www.theczabe.com/the-post/nimble-hand-0-65-seconds-can/

I already speculated once, I'm not going to do it again.BTW, I also posted I could make a device that could deflate a football to precisely 10.5 psi in 10 seconds or less. It would be smaller than a pack of gum and cost less than $20.

Have you considered selling them to the Patriots?

 

[amnesiac]

just watched the head smart video. That's pretty compelling, IMO. I hadn't considered the balls being wet - that could have two effects: (1) the water allows the leather to relax and stretch. if the leather stretches, PV=nRT simplifies differently. All of the previous calculations assume a constant volume, and the match changes. It wouldn't take a large effect on volume to have a significant change in temperature. (2) a wet ball would also have some evaporative cooling effects - when water evaporates, it cools. Now, water wasn't evaporating off of the surface of the football outside because the R.H. was 100% (i.e. it was raining), but as soon as you bring it inside a heated space with lower R.H, the balls would start to dry, potentially lowering their temperature further.

The obvious question then - if a 2.0 psi drop happened to the Pats balls, why not the Colts balls? The only speculation I have for that (based on information available right now), is that the balls were not measured at 50 dF at halftime, they were allowed to warm up first and were closer to room temp before measurements were taken. If all 12 Patriots balls were measured first, they would show a lower temperature than the Colts balls - i.e. colts balls would have additional time to acclimate to ambient room temp, and therefore would see a smaller delta T.

So, I now will say that it's entirely plausible that atmospheric conditions could have caused the differences here. The NFL's study will be more definitive and I await those results.

I would also like to point out that lack of evidence is not proof of innocence. If the Pats ultimately don't get caught from this game doesn't mean they haven't engaged in shenanigans in the past. None of the above science would hold up for a game played indoors - in Indianapolis, for example.

Shenanigans, huh? So what do you think happened exactly? You think the Patriots got the game balls 10 minutes before kickoff, when the national anthem was about to be sung, rushed the balls to the sidelines, then the ball boy used a needle and somehow managed to take out exactly 2 psi on 12 balls - with nobody seeing - when there are a million cameras in the stadium and the NFL is watching them?Here's a video of how difficult it would be for a ball boy to pull off such tampering... http://www.theczabe.com/the-post/nimble-hand-0-65-seconds-can/

I already speculated once, I'm not going to do it again.BTW, I also posted I could make a device that could deflate a football to precisely 10.5 psi in 10 seconds or less. It would be smaller than a pack of gum and cost less than $20.

I don't think that's what we're talking about anymore. I think we're talking about whether the Pats submit warm game balls, instructing the refs to inflate them to the lowest psi by rule, and then let nature take its course.

the way i'm reading this, technically it was the refs who let the air out of the balls.

we have our culprits.