Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)

[moleculo]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

 

[shader]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

And what if the balls are under psi because you know the NFL doesn't check them. Is that cheating?

 

[Bossman]

The only way this can be considered cheating is if someone let air out of the balls after they were approved for play.

Hot inflation ...or heating up the balls with a heat gun to qualify them for inspection should hold no penalty. Not cheating.

 

[moleculo]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

And what if the balls are under psi because you know the NFL doesn't check them. Is that cheating?

absolutely. It would violate an assumption of trust with the officials.

 

[Dezbelief]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

Goodell has plenty of leeway to use the conduct policy to quell public outcry if it comes out that no rules were technically broken.

 

[Witz]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

But they aren't following the rules - if the rule is the balls need to be between 12.5 and 13.5 and you are doing something that you know would cause that not to occur, you're breaking the rule. The rule doesn't state that the balls need to be between 12.5 and 13.5 only at the time of inspection.

 

[Deamon]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

I think this could be more 'part of the culture' then you may think. In just one day, we have heard about Brady, Rodgers, Peyton, Johnson all potentially altering the balls or PSI's in some way.

It's not really deceiving the refs. They needed to have psi at 12.5 when the refs did their checks. They did that. They needed to properly inflate the balls to a legal amount and hand them to the refs. THey did that. They need to not alter the balls afterwards. They didn't alter the balls afterwards. (all of this is going on the hot air theory only).

 

[KarmaPolice]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere. Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

Goodell has plenty of leeway to use the conduct policy to quell public outcry if it comes out that no rules were technically broken.

and a good reason the nfl is turning into more of a joke.

 

[Deamon]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

And what if the balls are under psi because you know the NFL doesn't check them. Is that cheating?

absolutely. It would violate an assumption of trust with the officials.

So then you're saying over-inflating the balls because you think/hope the nfl won't properly check them... is that cheating?

 

[Flying Elvis]

Some very interesting points in an article by Tom Curran. Typos aside, anyway.

"The league, according to Glazer, had been tipped off to the Patriots using under-inflated balls.

That raises two questions. First, why didn’t the league reach out to the Patriots and let them know there were concerns and they needed to be aware they were being monitored?

Second, if the league suspected the Patriots were using underinflated footballs and thought that would impact the game, why would even allow a chance that the game would be compromised?

If the answer is that the NFL wanted to “catch” the Patriots – Belichick in particular – red-handed, then they risked the Patriots gaining a first-half advantage over Indianapolis in the AFC Championship to do so.

Which, to me, would show just how deep the enmity for Belichick and the Patriots run at the league level. They would rather set him up than ensure the game isn’t compromised.

To say nothing of the fact the league itself would have known this circus of controversy and accusation would have been the result of the “sting” they ran"

 

[mbuehner]

Some very interesting points in an article by Tom Curran. Typos aside, anyway.

"The league, according to Glazer, had been tipped off to the Patriots using under-inflated balls.

That raises two questions. First, why didn’t the league reach out to the Patriots and let them know there were concerns and they needed to be aware they were being monitored?

Second, if the league suspected the Patriots were using underinflated footballs and thought that would impact the game, why would even allow a chance that the game would be compromised?

If the answer is that the NFL wanted to “catch” the Patriots – Belichick in particular – red-handed, then they risked the Patriots gaining a first-half advantage over Indianapolis in the AFC Championship to do so.

Which, to me, would show just how deep the enmity for Belichick and the Patriots run at the league level. They would rather set him up than ensure the game isn’t compromised.

To say nothing of the fact the league itself would have known this circus of controversy and accusation would have been the result of the “sting” they ran"

Or, potentially, why wouldn't the referees measure the pressure of the balls before the game like they are supposed to?

 

[shader]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

And what if the balls are under psi because you know the NFL doesn't check them. Is that cheating?

absolutely. It would violate an assumption of trust with the officials.

So then you're saying over-inflating the balls because you think/hope the nfl won't properly check them... is that cheating?

It shouldn't be. If the NFL isn't checking balls, then the problem is on them.

It shows that they don't really care. If it turns up that most QB's do this, the problem isn't a problem at all. It's a widespread practice.

The NFL needs to grow a pair and speak up here. Just say "look this isn't something we've monitored closely, as we allow QB's to have leeway". But that obviously won't happen.

 

[moleculo]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

And what if the balls are under psi because you know the NFL doesn't check them. Is that cheating?

absolutely. It would violate an assumption of trust with the officials.

So then you're saying over-inflating the balls because you think/hope the nfl won't properly check them... is that cheating?

yup.

I don't find "well, someone else does it" compelling either.

 

[shader]

Some very interesting points in an article by Tom Curran. Typos aside, anyway.

"The league, according to Glazer, had been tipped off to the Patriots using under-inflated balls.

That raises two questions. First, why didn’t the league reach out to the Patriots and let them know there were concerns and they needed to be aware they were being monitored?

Second, if the league suspected the Patriots were using underinflated footballs and thought that would impact the game, why would even allow a chance that the game would be compromised?

If the answer is that the NFL wanted to “catch” the Patriots – Belichick in particular – red-handed, then they risked the Patriots gaining a first-half advantage over Indianapolis in the AFC Championship to do so.

Which, to me, would show just how deep the enmity for Belichick and the Patriots run at the league level. They would rather set him up than ensure the game isn’t compromised.

To say nothing of the fact the league itself would have known this circus of controversy and accusation would have been the result of the “sting” they ran"

This is a perfect example of shoddy journalism. Wild speculation and innuendo, influencing public opinion, based on nothing.

 

[Deamon]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

And what if the balls are under psi because you know the NFL doesn't check them. Is that cheating?

absolutely. It would violate an assumption of trust with the officials.

So then you're saying over-inflating the balls because you think/hope the nfl won't properly check them... is that cheating?

yup.

I don't find "well, someone else does it" compelling either.

Not taking away from your thoughts by saying its okay if someone else does it. But by your opinion and logic, Rodgers cheats and should be punished the same as Brady.

 

[Flying Elvis]

Some very interesting points in an article by Tom Curran. Typos aside, anyway.

"The league, according to Glazer, had been tipped off to the Patriots using under-inflated balls.

That raises two questions. First, why didn’t the league reach out to the Patriots and let them know there were concerns and they needed to be aware they were being monitored?

Second, if the league suspected the Patriots were using underinflated footballs and thought that would impact the game, why would even allow a chance that the game would be compromised?

If the answer is that the NFL wanted to “catch” the Patriots – Belichick in particular – red-handed, then they risked the Patriots gaining a first-half advantage over Indianapolis in the AFC Championship to do so.

Which, to me, would show just how deep the enmity for Belichick and the Patriots run at the league level. They would rather set him up than ensure the game isn’t compromised.

To say nothing of the fact the league itself would have known this circus of controversy and accusation would have been the result of the “sting” they ran"

Or, potentially, why wouldn't the referees measure the pressure of the balls before the game like they are supposed to?

If it was a sting then there should be a very detailed log of all measurements and the "Full Transparency" version of NFL HQ will surely release said information very soon. I'll hold my breath . . .

 

[stbugs]

Lets get sport science to do a investigation on what it would take to deflate a ball that much and how much an advantage it would give.

They already did and no one is talking about it

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=12207314

That was great. Basically said it didn't matter at all and that balls actually went slower, but again by minuscule amounts.

The best part was that he said that the rain clinging to the ball had a 10x more weight change to the ball than the weight reduction due to the PSI reduction. The weight reduction due to the PSI change was the weight of a dollar bill.

that's some bad science, and completely missing the point. A fractional of amount of improved grip would help a QB gain better control and accuracy - they made no mention of that.

More importantly, a slightly underinflated ball will bounce less - off of a receivers hands, for instance. A fractionally softer ball would also be easier for a back to carry without fumbling.

Why is it bad science and completely missing the point? They mentioned the grip improving by 1.5% and they mentioned the decrease in speed of the ball as well. The whole point of it was even with those changes, the difference was entirely negligible and there wasn't a single close play that was decided by any of those changes.

Heck, this all started with an interception by the Colts, would that interception have happened if the ball was inflated properly? Maybe the Colts should forfeit the interception.

This is really silly at this point. The difference according to the link, is negligible. The balls were inspected before the game and during halftime and replaced. This according to other QBs and articles, seems to be common place. The video a couple pages back with the officials talking about things made it appear that being close enough was fine and that teams (kickers no less, who are supposed to use the same balls) "work" on the balls. IMHO, this is all just sour grapes by the Colts who decided to leak the story to make the Patriots look bad for something that didn't matter.

The fact that it is on CNN when I grabbed lunch yesterday is about as big of a joke as there is. I used to think that if the Pats altered the balls after the pre-game inspection that they should get punished, now I hope they don't and I hope the Colts get punished for leaking news before the NFL got a chance to discuss it. They seem like the childish little brats that got beat bad and went to go get their mom to rat you out for not letting them score.

because I don't think it's negligible. The sport science showed that a lower pressure in the ball has a negligible difference in how it travels through the air - no one argues that.

They make no mention of how a softer ball would be easier to catch or carry. That's the impact.

Actually, I think they did. They measured the amount of compression you could achieve with an average size hand at the two different pressures, and came up with < 1mm difference in compression. Not sure exactly how that would relate to grip, but it was a a measurement they took.

Football is ~ 7" diameter ( roughly 180 mm ) so the compression difference represents about .5% more compression at the lesser pressure.

All the measurements taken showed a negligible difference in the two pressures.

Agreed, they did talk about the gripping of the ball improving by 1.5%. That said, based on the weight loss being 1/10th the impact of rain being added, I would think that the rain/slipperiness of the ball would probably far outweigh the additional gripping ability. Also, Gronk's hand strength probably far outweighs the gripping enhancement, that is why I said they appear to be saying that the loss of pressure was negligible.

 

[Deamon]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

And what if the balls are under psi because you know the NFL doesn't check them. Is that cheating?

absolutely. It would violate an assumption of trust with the officials.

So then you're saying over-inflating the balls because you think/hope the nfl won't properly check them... is that cheating?

It shouldn't be. If the NFL isn't checking balls, then the problem is on them.

It shows that they don't really care. If it turns up that most QB's do this, the problem isn't a problem at all. It's a widespread practice.

The NFL needs to grow a pair and speak up here. Just say "look this isn't something we've monitored closely, as we allow QB's to have leeway". But that obviously won't happen.

Agree. I really hope they just admit this. And if they don't admit this, then fine. Give us proof that they did the checks, that the patriots deflated the balls afterwards, and then throw the book at them.

 

[mbuehner]

The idea that the NFL is licking their chops to 'get' the Patriots at this time is ludicrous. The biggest game of the year (maybe the decade) is a week and a half away, you really think they want the spotlight on this? I guarantee they wish this would go away.

 

[shader]

The idea that the NFL is licking their chops to 'get' the Patriots at this time is ludicrous. The biggest game of the year (maybe the decade) is a week and a half away, you really think they want the spotlight on this? I guarantee they wish this would go away.

If they wanted it to go away, they could have made that happen Monday or Tuesday.

 

[moleculo]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

And what if the balls are under psi because you know the NFL doesn't check them. Is that cheating?

absolutely. It would violate an assumption of trust with the officials.

So then you're saying over-inflating the balls because you think/hope the nfl won't properly check them... is that cheating?

yup.

I don't find "well, someone else does it" compelling either.

Not taking away from your thoughts by saying its okay if someone else does it. But by your opinion and logic, Rodgers cheats and should be punished the same as Brady.

well, yeah but there is a difference. Rodgers doesn't intentionally deceive. He hopes simply hopes for oversight.

If the Pats submitted underinflated balls and the refs just didn't catch them, that's one thing. Intentionally making them such they would pass the inspection and then deflate later - that is a little different.

I suppose there are degrees here - hoping the refs miss you cheating is on one level; intentionally working to circumvent the testing protocol is on an entirely different plane.

 

[Flying Elvis]

Some very interesting points in an article by Tom Curran. Typos aside, anyway.

"The league, according to Glazer, had been tipped off to the Patriots using under-inflated balls.

That raises two questions. First, why didn’t the league reach out to the Patriots and let them know there were concerns and they needed to be aware they were being monitored?

Second, if the league suspected the Patriots were using underinflated footballs and thought that would impact the game, why would even allow a chance that the game would be compromised?

If the answer is that the NFL wanted to “catch” the Patriots – Belichick in particular – red-handed, then they risked the Patriots gaining a first-half advantage over Indianapolis in the AFC Championship to do so.

Which, to me, would show just how deep the enmity for Belichick and the Patriots run at the league level. They would rather set him up than ensure the game isn’t compromised.

To say nothing of the fact the league itself would have known this circus of controversy and accusation would have been the result of the “sting” they ran"

This is a perfect example of shoddy journalism. Wild speculation and innuendo, influencing public opinion, based on nothing.

Message received. lol

Journalism is dead. We only have "media" these days and "media" only deals in speculation and innuendo for the purpose of influencing public opinion based on nothing.

 

[Deamon]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

not at all.

Deceiving the opposition is genius. What Belichick did with the eligible/ineligible receivers - that was genius. Deceiving the referees is illegal.

for your examples - tax loopholes are there because Congress put them there. Nothing wrong with taking advantage of them, provided they are legal (falsifying info knowing the IRS can't prove it - thats cheating and not using a legal loophole).

fighters cutting weight - not even close to cheating because that's part of the culture, expected by everyone, and the rules are set up to accommodate it. An example of cheating here might be a fighter weighing in on a crooked scale, or stepping on the scale while keeping his hand on the table, so the weight of his hand isn't on the scale or something like that...deceiving the refs.

And what if the balls are under psi because you know the NFL doesn't check them. Is that cheating?

absolutely. It would violate an assumption of trust with the officials.

So then you're saying over-inflating the balls because you think/hope the nfl won't properly check them... is that cheating?

yup.

I don't find "well, someone else does it" compelling either.

Not taking away from your thoughts by saying its okay if someone else does it. But by your opinion and logic, Rodgers cheats and should be punished the same as Brady.

well, yeah but there is a difference. Rodgers doesn't intentionally deceive. He hopes simply hopes for oversight.

If the Pats submitted underinflated balls and the refs just didn't catch them, that's one thing. Intentionally making them such they would pass the inspection and then deflate later - that is a little different.

I suppose there are degrees here - hoping the refs miss you cheating is on one level; intentionally working to circumvent the testing protocol is on an entirely different plane.

Ya I'm not sure what's worse though:

A: Purposely giving the refs legal balls, knowing they'll deflate later.

B: Purposely giving refs illegal balls, hoping they won't catch them.

 

[mbuehner]

The idea that the NFL is licking their chops to 'get' the Patriots at this time is ludicrous. The biggest game of the year (maybe the decade) is a week and a half away, you really think they want the spotlight on this? I guarantee they wish this would go away.

If they wanted it to go away, they could have made that happen Monday or Tuesday.

Or, more likely, the story line would just have changed to how Goodell drops hammers on players and lets BB run roughshod all over him. I think they prefer this.

 

[Stealthycat]

why is this not the Ref's faults for not catching it before and during the game ?

isn't that their job in part ?

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

The idea that the NFL is licking their chops to 'get' the Patriots at this time is ludicrous. The biggest game of the year (maybe the decade) is a week and a half away, you really think they want the spotlight on this? I guarantee they wish this would go away.

Seems like Roger doesn't have his house in order since multiple leaks have come out sighting league sources

 

[devouredbychaos]

Some very interesting points in an article by Tom Curran. Typos aside, anyway.

"The league, according to Glazer, had been tipped off to the Patriots using under-inflated balls.

That raises two questions. First, why didnt the league reach out to the Patriots and let them know there were concerns and they needed to be aware they were being monitored?

Second, if the league suspected the Patriots were using underinflated footballs and thought that would impact the game, why would even allow a chance that the game would be compromised?

If the answer is that the NFL wanted to catch the Patriots Belichick in particular red-handed, then they risked the Patriots gaining a first-half advantage over Indianapolis in the AFC Championship to do so.

Which, to me, would show just how deep the enmity for Belichick and the Patriots run at the league level. They would rather set him up than ensure the game isnt compromised.

To say nothing of the fact the league itself would have known this circus of controversy and accusation would have been the result of the sting they ran"

This is a perfect example of shoddy journalism. Wild speculation and innuendo, influencing public opinion, based on nothing.

The same can be said about Mortenson and what he released the other night. There's no truth to it as it hasn't been confirmed by the NFL..

 

[thatguy]

Am I the only non-Pats fan who still doesn't think this is a big deal? When the Manning/Brady petition changed the rules, it pretty much gave every QB the freedom to doctor the balls to their liking. Now it's just an accepted part of the culture. It seems many QBs are not happy that this is being brought to the limelight as it wil, if nothing else, lead to much more stringent rules concerning ball control and handling. I don't really care how the balls lost the 2 PSI, but I think the hot air theory is the most likely scenario. I just don't care; I say leave well enough alone.

 

[shader]

Some very interesting points in an article by Tom Curran. Typos aside, anyway.

"The league, according to Glazer, had been tipped off to the Patriots using under-inflated balls.

That raises two questions. First, why didnt the league reach out to the Patriots and let them know there were concerns and they needed to be aware they were being monitored?

Second, if the league suspected the Patriots were using underinflated footballs and thought that would impact the game, why would even allow a chance that the game would be compromised?

If the answer is that the NFL wanted to catch the Patriots Belichick in particular red-handed, then they risked the Patriots gaining a first-half advantage over Indianapolis in the AFC Championship to do so.

Which, to me, would show just how deep the enmity for Belichick and the Patriots run at the league level. They would rather set him up than ensure the game isnt compromised.

To say nothing of the fact the league itself would have known this circus of controversy and accusation would have been the result of the sting they ran"

This is a perfect example of shoddy journalism. Wild speculation and innuendo, influencing public opinion, based on nothing.

The same can be said about Mortenson and what he released the other night. There's no truth to it as it hasn't been confirmed by the NFL..

I'm assuming what he reported was true. It was too specific and also hasn't been refuted by the NFL. But all he has reported is that 11 balls were 2 pounds under the limit at halftime, that's it.

 

[Ned]

HOT BALLS

 

[ragnarok628]

some of you guys are pretty invested in the "hot air" theory. I can't be the only one that thinks this is ridiculous.

If the NFL wants to give leeway to QBs so they can use the ball they feel most comfortable throwing, I see no problem with that. By all accounts, there is quite a bit you can do to get the footballs just the way you like them, without falling afoul of the rules as written. However the rules DO specify an acceptable inflation range, for whatever reason. Maybe that rule is dumb, I don't know. But the point is you don't get to ignore rules just because you think they're dumb. If the reports are true, then by all appearances the Patriots deflated some footballs to be out of spec and illegal, AKA breaking the rules. They should be punished (if true). I'm not sure how that is controversial.

 

[shader]

Am I the only non-Pats fan who still doesn't think this is a big deal? When the Manning/Brady petition changed the rules, it pretty much gave every QB the freedom to doctor the balls to their liking. Now it's just an accepted part of the culture. It seems many QBs are not happy that this is being brought to the limelight as it wil, if nothing else, lead to much more stringent rules concerning ball control and handling. I don't really care how the balls lost the 2 PSI, but I think the hot air theory is the most likely scenario. I just don't care; I say leave well enough alone.

Plenty of people don't care. This thread is mostly full of Pats lovers or Pats haters vehemently arguing their positions. Personally, I'm not a huge Pats fan, but i am a huge Brady fan and want to see him go out with another ring or two.

 

[shader]

some of you guys are pretty invested in the "hot air" theory. I can't be the only one that thinks this is ridiculous.

If the NFL wants to give leeway to QBs so they can use the ball they feel most comfortable throwing, I see no problem with that. By all accounts, there is quite a bit you can do to get the footballs just the way you like them, without falling afoul of the rules as written. However the rules DO specify an acceptable inflation range, for whatever reason. Maybe that rule is dumb, I don't know. But the point is you don't get to ignore rules just because you think they're dumb. If the reports are true, then by all appearances the Patriots deflated some footballs to be out of spec and illegal, which is breaking the rules. They should be punished (if true). I'm not sure how that is controversial.

I find it second to the theory of a 100 degree office being used to heat the footballs.

 

[johnnycakes]

some of you guys are pretty invested in the "hot air" theory. I can't be the only one that thinks this is ridiculous.

If the NFL wants to give leeway to QBs so they can use the ball they feel most comfortable throwing, I see no problem with that. By all accounts, there is quite a bit you can do to get the footballs just the way you like them, without falling afoul of the rules as written. However the rules DO specify an acceptable inflation range, for whatever reason. Maybe that rule is dumb, I don't know. But the point is you don't get to ignore rules just because you think they're dumb. If the reports are true, then by all appearances the Patriots deflated some footballs to be out of spec and illegal, which is breaking the rules. They should be punished (if true). I'm not sure how that is controversial.

I find it second to the theory of a 100 degree office being used to heat the footballs.

Personally, I think they took the balls to the sauna at the TB12 Sports Therapy Center.

 

[ragnarok628]

some of you guys are pretty invested in the "hot air" theory. I can't be the only one that thinks this is ridiculous.

If the NFL wants to give leeway to QBs so they can use the ball they feel most comfortable throwing, I see no problem with that. By all accounts, there is quite a bit you can do to get the footballs just the way you like them, without falling afoul of the rules as written. However the rules DO specify an acceptable inflation range, for whatever reason. Maybe that rule is dumb, I don't know. But the point is you don't get to ignore rules just because you think they're dumb. If the reports are true, then by all appearances the Patriots deflated some footballs to be out of spec and illegal, which is breaking the rules. They should be punished (if true). I'm not sure how that is controversial.

I find it second to the theory of a 100 degree office being used to heat the footballs.

well that's even less likely, because then the footballs which the refs are checking are themselves 100 degrees too, not just the air inside them. i assume the polyurethane and leather shell would be a decent insulator so the air could be hot but the balls room temperature if you inflate with hot air. But if you leave the footballs in a hot office for hours to heat the whole ball up, it would be obvious what you had done to anyone who touches them

 

[Ned]

some of you guys are pretty invested in the "hot air" theory. I can't be the only one that thinks this is ridiculous.

If the NFL wants to give leeway to QBs so they can use the ball they feel most comfortable throwing, I see no problem with that. By all accounts, there is quite a bit you can do to get the footballs just the way you like them, without falling afoul of the rules as written. However the rules DO specify an acceptable inflation range, for whatever reason. Maybe that rule is dumb, I don't know. But the point is you don't get to ignore rules just because you think they're dumb. If the reports are true, then by all appearances the Patriots deflated some footballs to be out of spec and illegal, which is breaking the rules. They should be punished (if true). I'm not sure how that is controversial.

I find it second to the theory of a 100 degree office being used to heat the footballs.

Wouldn't the refs notice it though during inspection?

Ref: Hey man, your balls are hot. What's up?

Ballboy:

 

[Deamon]

Am I the only non-Pats fan who still doesn't think this is a big deal? When the Manning/Brady petition changed the rules, it pretty much gave every QB the freedom to doctor the balls to their liking. Now it's just an accepted part of the culture. It seems many QBs are not happy that this is being brought to the limelight as it wil, if nothing else, lead to much more stringent rules concerning ball control and handling. I don't really care how the balls lost the 2 PSI, but I think the hot air theory is the most likely scenario. I just don't care; I say leave well enough alone.

Nope... i'm not a Pats fan and I think this is ridiculous too.

 

[Bossman]

it's my opinion that if the balls were indeed inflated to 12.5 PSI in a hot environment and immediately delivered for inspection, that is a case of the team purposefully and intentionally working to deceive the referees, and intentionally deliver a product outside specification. It may not break a written rule but it sure as #### violates the intent.

Correct. So should the NFL punish a team being sneaky like this but still following the rules? It's the obligation of the nfl to create rules that leave no loopholes. Loopholes exist everywhere.

Those who are smart enough to find tax loopholes to save themselves money, and are doing it totally legally, should they be blasted like this?

What about a boxer who doesn't eat for 3 days for his weigh in, then bulks up to 5+ lbs over the legal fight weight come fight day?

If it's disclosed this is what happened, I think it is fully debatable if what they did was 'sketchy', but it is pretty genious.

But they aren't following the rules - if the rule is the balls need to be between 12.5 and 13.5 and you are doing something that you know would cause that not to occur, you're breaking the rule. The rule doesn't state that the balls need to be between 12.5 and 13.5 only at the time of inspection.

So when a kicker puts a ball in front of a torpedo heater on the sidelines, and potentially brings it's psi to above the allowed 13.5, is he cheating?

Should his coach be suspended and draft picks taken?

.

.

So only if someone stuck a needle in the ball after it was approved for use. Period.

 

[parrot]

Am I the only non-Pats fan who still doesn't think this is a big deal? When the Manning/Brady petition changed the rules, it pretty much gave every QB the freedom to doctor the balls to their liking. Now it's just an accepted part of the culture. It seems many QBs are not happy that this is being brought to the limelight as it wil, if nothing else, lead to much more stringent rules concerning ball control and handling. I don't really care how the balls lost the 2 PSI, but I think the hot air theory is the most likely scenario. I just don't care; I say leave well enough alone.

Yeah, I don't know what Rodgers is going to think about the new Deflate Double Check!

 

[FreeBaGeL]

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/22/brady-pushed-for-rule-to-let-visiting-team-provide-own-footballs/

Looks like Brady AND PEYTON MANNING were behind the change to allow teams to provide their own footballs.

I'd love if Peyton would come out and say that he does the same thing, because that would end the "conspiracy" immediately, as the media would never accuse the golden boy of cheating.

Brady IS the golden boy. It's even funnier to read this because several people in the media have literally called him the golden boy on ESPN this week prior to this deflated balls stuff.

 

[Deamon]

some of you guys are pretty invested in the "hot air" theory. I can't be the only one that thinks this is ridiculous.

If the NFL wants to give leeway to QBs so they can use the ball they feel most comfortable throwing, I see no problem with that. By all accounts, there is quite a bit you can do to get the footballs just the way you like them, without falling afoul of the rules as written. However the rules DO specify an acceptable inflation range, for whatever reason. Maybe that rule is dumb, I don't know. But the point is you don't get to ignore rules just because you think they're dumb. If the reports are true, then by all appearances the Patriots deflated some footballs to be out of spec and illegal, which is breaking the rules. They should be punished (if true). I'm not sure how that is controversial.

I find it second to the theory of a 100 degree office being used to heat the footballs.

It actually seems the most likely to me.

I don't see the Patriots (especially after the first scandal), actually sneaking the balls into a hidden room and deflating them all. That is just so risky, and despite people's BB hate, he's not that dumb.

What I COULD see them doing is trying to be sneaky and work within the rules, to get the balls the way they like them. Realizing balls deflate in the cold, and inflating them with warmer air to achieve this within the NFL rulebook.

I don't think its ridiculous at all.

 

[FreeBaGeL]

Am I the only non-Pats fan who still doesn't think this is a big deal? When the Manning/Brady petition changed the rules, it pretty much gave every QB the freedom to doctor the balls to their liking. Now it's just an accepted part of the culture. It seems many QBs are not happy that this is being brought to the limelight as it wil, if nothing else, lead to much more stringent rules concerning ball control and handling. I don't really care how the balls lost the 2 PSI, but I think the hot air theory is the most likely scenario. I just don't care; I say leave well enough alone.

Nope... i'm not a Pats fan and I think this is ridiculous too.

It's a big difference. Even if most QBs are doing it, that's like saying that steroids were no big deal because most guys were taking them. Either way, the guys who aren't doing it are at a big disadvantage.

And yes, having a deflated football is a big advantage. Aside from personal experience, every player that they've asked about it has said yes, it is a major advantage.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

@Jeronimo63: Were the Colts footballs ever checked?

@mortreport: Yes, they were within regulation and remained within regulation

 

[Niles Standish]

Am I the only non-Pats fan who still doesn't think this is a big deal? When the Manning/Brady petition changed the rules, it pretty much gave every QB the freedom to doctor the balls to their liking. Now it's just an accepted part of the culture. It seems many QBs are not happy that this is being brought to the limelight as it wil, if nothing else, lead to much more stringent rules concerning ball control and handling. I don't really care how the balls lost the 2 PSI, but I think the hot air theory is the most likely scenario. I just don't care; I say leave well enough alone.

I think if the Pats gave 10.5 PSI balls to the refs and the refs ok'd them. Then no big deal. It's the NFL's fault and probably happens in most games.

I think if the Pats filled them with hot air or deflated them during the game then it's a different story.

 

[Deamon]

Am I the only non-Pats fan who still doesn't think this is a big deal? When the Manning/Brady petition changed the rules, it pretty much gave every QB the freedom to doctor the balls to their liking. Now it's just an accepted part of the culture. It seems many QBs are not happy that this is being brought to the limelight as it wil, if nothing else, lead to much more stringent rules concerning ball control and handling. I don't really care how the balls lost the 2 PSI, but I think the hot air theory is the most likely scenario. I just don't care; I say leave well enough alone.

Nope... i'm not a Pats fan and I think this is ridiculous too.

It's a big difference. Even if most QBs are doing it, that's like saying that steroids were no big deal because most guys were taking them. Either way, the guys who aren't doing it are at a big disadvantage.

And yes, having a deflated football is a big advantage. Aside from personal experience, every player that they've asked about it has said yes, it is a major advantage.

Well I guess we'll see next Sunday how much of an advantage it was. If the Pats as underdogs can win with fully inflated balls (probably in the 13.5 range im guessing) then that will show they're great even without lower psi balls

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Troy Aikman:

"Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they’ve cheated and given themselves an advantage. To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints.”

 

[mbuehner]

Theory #7- The Patriots injected the ball with a radioactive isotope with a very specific half-life.

 

[Thunderlips]

I remember the Cowboys, Skins and Broncos awhile back being punished for violating salary cap rules in one capacity or another. Is this something that's happened alot in the NFL? Weren't the Cowboys penalized for it?

 

[moleculo]

some of you guys are pretty invested in the "hot air" theory. I can't be the only one that thinks this is ridiculous.

If the NFL wants to give leeway to QBs so they can use the ball they feel most comfortable throwing, I see no problem with that. By all accounts, there is quite a bit you can do to get the footballs just the way you like them, without falling afoul of the rules as written. However the rules DO specify an acceptable inflation range, for whatever reason. Maybe that rule is dumb, I don't know. But the point is you don't get to ignore rules just because you think they're dumb. If the reports are true, then by all appearances the Patriots deflated some footballs to be out of spec and illegal, which is breaking the rules. They should be punished (if true). I'm not sure how that is controversial.

I find it second to the theory of a 100 degree office being used to heat the footballs.

It actually seems the most likely to me.

I don't see the Patriots (especially after the first scandal), actually sneaking the balls into a hidden room and deflating them all. That is just so risky, and despite people's BB hate, he's not that dumb.

What I COULD see them doing is trying to be sneaky and work within the rules, to get the balls the way they like them. Realizing balls deflate in the cold, and inflating them with warmer air to achieve this within the NFL rulebook.

I don't think its ridiculous at all.

so here's the hole in this theory - if we accept that the Colts suspected this was happening based on their previous game (as has been reported), that game was in Indy. assuming temp in their dome was 72 dF, they could only get the air pressure down to 11.6 psi. I'm not sure that's low enough for anyone to notice.

 

[netnalp]

Maybe each ball will be treated like the equivalent of a corked bat in baseball. For the bat they suspend the guy 8 games out of 162. So would that come out to be a 8-9 game suspension?