Patriots being investigated after Colts game (3 Viewers)

[TheAristocrat]

Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann · 60m60 minutes ago

So I was away from the tv all day. Thursday, Belichick knew nothing about football inflation. Today he knows everything? #CSI/PSI #BallGhazi

Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann · 59m59 minutes ago

Simple horrifying explanation: that was a substitute Belichick today. #CSI/PSI #Ballghazi #ManchurianCoachingCandidate

Yep, he took it seriously enough to look into it and report their findings, you know, unlike the NFL.

The NFL completed its investigation?

They've had enough of time. Their ineptitude is otherworldly.

 

[mbuehner]

Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann · 60m60 minutes ago

So I was away from the tv all day. Thursday, Belichick knew nothing about football inflation. Today he knows everything? #CSI/PSI #BallGhazi

He just described half the country and all of twitter.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann · 60m60 minutes ago

So I was away from the tv all day. Thursday, Belichick knew nothing about football inflation. Today he knows everything? #CSI/PSI #BallGhazi

Keith Olbermann ‏@KeithOlbermann · 59m59 minutes ago

Simple horrifying explanation: that was a substitute Belichick today. #CSI/PSI #Ballghazi #ManchurianCoachingCandidate

Yep, he took it seriously enough to look into it and report their findings, you know, unlike the NFL.

The NFL completed its investigation?

i wouldn't be surprised if they haven't started.

 

[AngryPatriot]

lol, they hadn't interviewed Brady yet.... BRADY... the QB?

 

[General Tso]

For those still holding out hope that the ball boy deflated the balls on the sidelines, great video...

http://www.theczabe.com/the-post/nimble-hand-0-65-seconds-can/

 

[katar]

It all sounds good and scientific Mr. Belichick, but why was 1 ball still within regulation?

Easy. The kicker still needed a ball!

 

[PatsWillWin]

This reminds me George W Bush giving that speech with the "Mission Accomplished" sign behind him.

He conveniently doesn't mention how they adjust the texture of the ball, but there sure as hell isn't someone who's going to rub the footballs enough to increase the PSI by a full pound. And if they didn't use a dryer like Bill said, I'm guess there is still going to be plenty of info yet to come.

The NFL did whatever measurements they did and saw enough cause to launch an investigation run by the same guy who did the Richie Incognito stuff. This won't be going away just because a convicted cheater talks about their own internal "testing."

I'm guessing the investigators will ask the Patriots to show them how they prep the balls. I'm also guessing Belichick would know this and would not call an impromptu press conference to put this out there if he wasn't prepared to show them (and it hold water).

 

[12punch]

ESPN Pulls ‘Sports Science: Deflate-Gate’ Clip Exonerating Patriots

 

[PatsWillWin]

Unless the NFL comes out with some compelling evidence quickly, this thing is over. What Belichik did today was slap a beat down on the NFL and the media the likes of which I've never seen. If this were a prize fight the refs would have stepped in and put a stop to it.

The NFL has knowingly allowed a franchise, a fan base, it's greatest coach, and maybe it's greatest quarterback - to be dragged through the mud for 6 days while they should be preparing for a Superbowl. After what Belichik did today, Goodell has to respond with something. The fact that he hasn't seems to point to what I've suspected all along - that the NFL has nothing here, and that once again Roger Goodell is showing how incompetent and incapable he is - hopefully for the last time.

The NFL made a statement that laid out what they are doing. They are investigating and will issue a statement once that investigation is done. Why would that change based on Belichcik's press conference , even if he was telling the truth? If this was a criminal prosecution would the district attorney's office just say "fine" if the defense attorney held a press conference? That makes no sense.

I don't think they will bother any of the Patriots during this week. They'll let them prepare for the game.

Yeah this press conference was not for the investigators. It was for the team, the Krafts, and maybe even a little, the fans.

 

[General Tso]

Latest polls show Belichik hit a homerun today. Public opinion has swayed dramatically.

http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=sportsnation&pollId=4679268

 

[Old Smiley]

"We did everything as right as we could do it," Belichick said. "And we welcome the league's investigation into this matter. I think there are a number of things that need to be looked into on a number of levels."

1.) How was Indy sharing all this info between the sideline and the owner's box?

2.) What's with all the back and forth between Indy and the Ravens?

3.) What's up with all the leaks, Roger? You'd almost think you were trying to say things without having said them.

4.) Just where are you anyway, Roger?

 

[Da Guru]

80 pages on 1.5 lbs of PSI air..... there will not be 40 pages on the Super Bowl game itself.

 

[12punch]

80 pages on 1.5 lbs of PSI air..... there will not be 40 pages on the Super Bowl game itself.

shark pool be sharkin'

 

[Old Smiley]

80 pages on 1.5 lbs of PSI air..... there will not be 40 pages on the Super Bowl game itself.

I find it fascinating.

possible headline: Belichick Sends the House

 

[Road Warriors]

Latest polls show Belichik hit a homerun today. Public opinion has swayed dramatically.

http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=sportsnation&pollId=4679268

Pretty funny poll results. The last opponent and the next opponent are the only areas of the country that still believe ( aside from the Shark pool, where nearly all original positions are unchanged ).

 

[The Kerminator]

Latest polls show Belichik hit a homerun today. Public opinion has swayed dramatically.

http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=sportsnation&pollId=4679268

Interesting that the only 2 states that still believe NE did anything wrong are Indiana and Washington. One is the team they just beat and the second is the team they are about to beat.

 

[shader]

Well this controversy is over. What's next guys?

 

[squistion]

Latest polls show Belichik hit a homerun today. Public opinion has swayed dramatically.

http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=sportsnation&pollId=4679268

Yes, these scientific internet polls are indeed the last word on public opinion.

 

[bostonfred]

Latest polls show Belichik hit a homerun today. Public opinion has swayed dramatically.

http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=sportsnation&pollId=4679268

Interesting that the only 2 states that still believe NE did anything wrong are Indiana and Washington. One is the team they just beat and the second is the team they are about to beat.

and guesz what their primary export is?

Spoiler

salt

 

[Morton Muffley]

Well this controversy is over. What's next guys?

Easy, what's next is all the salty haters are gonna contend that the patriots knew all along that their process would artificially add 1psi to the footballs and that as such this is clear intent to deceive. They will call for heads to roll while conveniently forgetting that Aaron Rodgers already admitted to this same intent. Oh, and the really dumb ones will simply ignore all of this and say "then why we're the colts' ball within range?"

 

[General Tso]

Well this controversy is over. What's next guys?

Good question. What's next is the investigation of the real scandal here - how the NFL allowed one of its franchises and two of its most legendary figures to be publicly tried and convicted, and either being actively complicit in this witch hunt or not doing enough to squash it until the investigation had taken its course. Oh, and the media's shameful performance in all of this.

 

[Niles Standish]

Latest polls show Belichik hit a homerun today. Public opinion has swayed dramatically.http://espn.go.com/espn/fp/flashPollResultsState?sportIndex=sportsnation&pollId=4679268

Interesting that the only 2 states that still believe NE did anything wrong are Indiana and Washington. One is the team they just beat and the second is the team they are about to beat.

Crazy that NY is 70:30 they hate Belichick almost unanimously.

 

[((Morpheus))]

Watching Bill dismantle the accusations all i could think of was the movie 8 mile when eminem took all of papa ducks firepower away from him during that rap battle, essentially taking all of the NFL`s accusations and putting them on Rogers lap....that was perfect

Bravo

 

[Old Smiley]

Gruden voice: I tell ya what Belichick's in cover zero, man.

 

[Bossman]

So you are doubting the Patriots beating up the ball prior to inspection could raise the psi by 1LB?

I know that if I were the one in charge of roughing up 24 footballs, I wouldn't be doing it by hand, I would be using a tool like this:

http://drillbrush.net/images/2-4r-and-5-inch-nylon-drill-brushes.jpg

Not cheating.

 

[GoBirds]

Suddenly Belicheat is a physics professor schooled in atmospheric pressure?? Theyre going to get killed on media day this os NOT going away.question for the Professor...how come all Colts balls were at the absolute correct weight throughout the entite game???

Dopes gonna be dopes..and Belicheat is the master..

Sinple answer to him and Tommy Asterisk: take a polygraph .if youre as innocent as you claim put it all to rest right now, nice and quick..take a polygraph..and i hope a reporter asks both of these clowns this very question..

Stay clasdy Pats fans you're backing the biggest bunch of cheaters in pro sports history.theyve been doing for a decade since they cheated the Rams Eagles Panthers out of SB victories..

Ironically what may come out of this is a complete re-evaluation of Belichik, including Spygate. I've been of the opinion for many years that he and the Pats got a very raw deal in Spygate and in other subsequent accusations. History may wind up being much more kind to Belichik. I wouldn't rule it out.

You make it pretty obvious you feel they got a raw deal. History won't change and this definitely won't help the perception of them.

 

[Bossman]

I believe BB (and Kraft) was hoping the NFL would have put this to rest by now.

As of 6 days into it, the NFL has done nothing and have left the Patriots hung out to dry.

Finally BB had enough and was given the green light by Kraft to take matters into his own hands to defend his franchise today via press conference.

BB absolutely threw the NFL under the bus today by calling out the refs ... stating that it was on them to bring the balls up to specs.

He wouldn't have had to do that if Goodell would have just addressed the matter before now.

And in the 6 days after the fact, why has no one been able to get a statement from the ref in charge of the footballs?

I should think he would be the one to put all of this to bed. Maybe because he was the one the "screwed up" and the NFL is attempting to hide that fact.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Suddenly Belicheat is a physics professor schooled in atmospheric pressure?? Theyre going to get killed on media day this os NOT going away.question for the Professor...how come all Colts balls were at the absolute correct weight throughout the entite game???

Dopes gonna be dopes..and Belicheat is the master..

Sinple answer to him and Tommy Asterisk: take a polygraph .if youre as innocent as you claim put it all to rest right now, nice and quick..take a polygraph..and i hope a reporter asks both of these clowns this very question..

Stay clasdy Pats fans you're backing the biggest bunch of cheaters in pro sports history.theyve been doing for a decade since they cheated the Rams Eagles Panthers out of SB victories..

Ironically what may come out of this is a complete re-evaluation of Belichik, including Spygate. I've been of the opinion for many years that he and the Pats got a very raw deal in Spygate and in other subsequent accusations. History may wind up being much more kind to Belichik. I wouldn't rule it out.

You make it pretty obvious you feel they got a raw deal. History won't change and this definitely won't help the perception of them.

I agree with the General. BB called the so called spygate bs for what it was, BS. He is tired of this crap, and if the league ends up not finding NE guilty of anything here then it reinforces the belief that it is jealousy driving much of this.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

I believe BB (and Kraft) was hoping the NFL would have put this to rest by now.

As of 6 days into it, the NFL has done nothing and have left the Patriots hung out to dry.

Finally BB had enough and was given the green light by Kraft to take matters into his own hands to defend his franchise today via press conference.

BB absolutely threw the NFL under the bus today by calling out the refs ... stating that it was on them to bring the balls up to specs.

He wouldn't have had to do that if Goodell would have just addressed the matter before now.

And in the 6 days after the fact, why has no one been able to get a statement from the ref in charge of the footballs?

I should think he would be the one to put all of this to bed. Maybe because he was the one the "screwed up" and the NFL is attempting to hide that fact.

Agreed, wtf is the nfl doing; they need to come out with something or admit they don't have anything. At least a preliminary report for what they have and don't have; they can't leave NE twisting in the wind like this. We better effn hear something from the nfl tomorrow.

 

[Road Warriors]

Are we sure Belichick isn't getting his info from this thread?

Deny heating balls...

At no time were any of our footballs prepared anywhere other than in the locker room or in an area very close to that – never in a heated room or heated condition.

References My Cousin Vinnie via Mona Lisa Vito

Inquiring minds want to know.

 

[shader]

I believe BB (and Kraft) was hoping the NFL would have put this to rest by now.

As of 6 days into it, the NFL has done nothing and have left the Patriots hung out to dry.

Finally BB had enough and was given the green light by Kraft to take matters into his own hands to defend his franchise today via press conference.

BB absolutely threw the NFL under the bus today by calling out the refs ... stating that it was on them to bring the balls up to specs.

He wouldn't have had to do that if Goodell would have just addressed the matter before now.

And in the 6 days after the fact, why has no one been able to get a statement from the ref in charge of the footballs?

I should think he would be the one to put all of this to bed. Maybe because he was the one the "screwed up" and the NFL is attempting to hide that fact.

Agreed, wtf is the nfl doing; they need to come out with something or admit they don't have anything. At least a preliminary report for what they have and don't have; they can't leave NE twisting in the wind like this. We better effn hear something from the nfl tomorrow.

NE isn't twisting in the wind anymore. They ended the whole thing already.

The NFL has nothing, can do nothing, and probably has no idea what to do now.

Now it's the NFL that is twisting in the wind.

 

[amnesiac]

over/under on this thread by kickoff: 150 pages

 

[GoBirds]

Suddenly Belicheat is a physics professor schooled in atmospheric pressure?? Theyre going to get killed on media day this os NOT going away.question for the Professor...how come all Colts balls were at the absolute correct weight throughout the entite game???

Dopes gonna be dopes..and Belicheat is the master..

Sinple answer to him and Tommy Asterisk: take a polygraph .if youre as innocent as you claim put it all to rest right now, nice and quick..take a polygraph..and i hope a reporter asks both of these clowns this very question..

Stay clasdy Pats fans you're backing the biggest bunch of cheaters in pro sports history.theyve been doing for a decade since they cheated the Rams Eagles Panthers out of SB victories..

Ironically what may come out of this is a complete re-evaluation of Belichik, including Spygate. I've been of the opinion for many years that he and the Pats got a very raw deal in Spygate and in other subsequent accusations. History may wind up being much more kind to Belichik. I wouldn't rule it out.

You make it pretty obvious you feel they got a raw deal. History won't change and this definitely won't help the perception of them.

I agree with the General. BB called the so called spygate bs for what it was, BS. He is tired of this crap, and if the league ends up not finding NE guilty of anything here then it reinforces the belief that it is jealousy driving much of this.

I don't blame him for being pissed they won by a ton so it doesn't matter in this instance. Since he's been caught cheating in the past though the media will eat it up.

 

[GoBirds]

Actually this could be great for the whole us against the world bs every team goes.....these boys are going to be fired up.

 

[Old Smiley]

I believe BB (and Kraft) was hoping the NFL would have put this to rest by now.

As of 6 days into it, the NFL has done nothing and have left the Patriots hung out to dry.

Finally BB had enough and was given the green light by Kraft to take matters into his own hands to defend his franchise today via press conference.

BB absolutely threw the NFL under the bus today by calling out the refs ... stating that it was on them to bring the balls up to specs.

He wouldn't have had to do that if Goodell would have just addressed the matter before now.

And in the 6 days after the fact, why has no one been able to get a statement from the ref in charge of the footballs?

I should think he would be the one to put all of this to bed. Maybe because he was the one the "screwed up" and the NFL is attempting to hide that fact.

With, apparently, a bunch of investigators poking around the facility. Third party investigators apparently. While they're trying to prepare for a championship game.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Suddenly Belicheat is a physics professor schooled in atmospheric pressure?? Theyre going to get killed on media day this os NOT going away.question for the Professor...how come all Colts balls were at the absolute correct weight throughout the entite game???

Dopes gonna be dopes..and Belicheat is the master..

Sinple answer to him and Tommy Asterisk: take a polygraph .if youre as innocent as you claim put it all to rest right now, nice and quick..take a polygraph..and i hope a reporter asks both of these clowns this very question..

Stay clasdy Pats fans you're backing the biggest bunch of cheaters in pro sports history.theyve been doing for a decade since they cheated the Rams Eagles Panthers out of SB victories..

Ironically what may come out of this is a complete re-evaluation of Belichik, including Spygate. I've been of the opinion for many years that he and the Pats got a very raw deal in Spygate and in other subsequent accusations. History may wind up being much more kind to Belichik. I wouldn't rule it out.

You make it pretty obvious you feel they got a raw deal. History won't change and this definitely won't help the perception of them.

I agree with the General. BB called the so called spygate bs for what it was, BS. He is tired of this crap, and if the league ends up not finding NE guilty of anything here then it reinforces the belief that it is jealousy driving much of this.

I don't blame him for being pissed they won by a ton so it doesn't matter in this instance. Since he's been caught cheating in the past though the media will eat it up.

Umm, yeah, if like other teams, publicly recording what 80,000 people can already see anyway, then yeah u miiight be right. If u mean something else please elaborate.

 

[Morton Muffley]

Suddenly Belicheat is a physics professor schooled in atmospheric pressure?? Theyre going to get killed on media day this os NOT going away.question for the Professor...how come all Colts balls were at the absolute correct weight throughout the entite game???

Dopes gonna be dopes..and Belicheat is the master..

Sinple answer to him and Tommy Asterisk: take a polygraph .if youre as innocent as you claim put it all to rest right now, nice and quick..take a polygraph..and i hope a reporter asks both of these clowns this very question..

Stay clasdy Pats fans you're backing the biggest bunch of cheaters in pro sports history.theyve been doing for a decade since they cheated the Rams Eagles Panthers out of SB victories..

Ironically what may come out of this is a complete re-evaluation of Belichik, including Spygate. I've been of the opinion for many years that he and the Pats got a very raw deal in Spygate and in other subsequent accusations. History may wind up being much more kind to Belichik. I wouldn't rule it out.

You make it pretty obvious you feel they got a raw deal. History won't change and this definitely won't help the perception of them.

I agree with the General. BB called the so called spygate bs for what it was, BS. He is tired of this crap, and if the league ends up not finding NE guilty of anything here then it reinforces the belief that it is jealousy driving much of this.

I don't blame him for being pissed they won by a ton so it doesn't matter in this instance. Since he's been caught cheating in the past though the media will eat it up.

Umm, yeah, if like other teams, publicly recording what 80,000 people can already see anyway, then yeah u miiight be right. If u mean something else please elaborate.

[sarcasm alert warning]But the patriots video taped from the sideline...which is illegal because all video locations are required to have a roof and three walls! Don't you understand what a huge competitive advantage it was for NE not to have to worry about those three walls? I mean forget about the roof which can cause sig problems on it's own what if one of those walls was directly in front of the camera (75% chance by my calculations), then they get nothing!!! So that right there is a huge competitive advantage and worthy of the steepest possible fine don't you agree?

 

[AngryPatriot]

Maybe the NFL could hire Bellichick as a public image consultant, because he just put on a clinic, while the NFL's credibility continues to fade. Just announce your new procedure for ball handling and let's move on.

 

[Run It Up]

One of the great things about science is you don't have to actually prove your experiments results, you can - and should provide your variables and how you performed your experiment and see if others can reproduce the results.

Since thats already been done, multiple times - suck it.

What did they do to heat the balls in the first place?I missed that part.

He said they were never in a heated environment or under a heating element. He said they were prepared to Tom's specifications, saying it involved rubbing to the desired texture which resulted in a 1 psi increase, likely from heat created from the friction.

But if I wanted to recreate that for an experiment what exactly should I do?

Um . . . measure pressure, rub the ball for a while, measure pressure again? He was pretty clear about it

yes, but how vigorously woul Bill like me to rub my balls?

Until they reach their equilibrium

 

[cmv5]

So, let me get this straight. All these psi numbers don't add up for Pats fans, they want calibrations done with NASA equipment to explains temperatures and proper inflation numbers but Belichick mentions his findings and it is taken as gospel? Got it.

 

[cmv5]

Oh, and another thing. Brady picks out these balls meticulously and after that, they are perfect. Minus 2 pounds? How the heck would he notice a mere 2 psi change? So, then why pick out the balls at all if he can't tell any difference and there are going to be all these magnificent changes in barometric pressure that takes place during a game anyway.

 

[Run It Up]

So, let me get this straight. All these psi numbers don't add up for Pats fans, they want calibrations done with NASA equipment to explains temperatures and proper inflation numbers but Belichick mentions his findings and it is taken as gospel? Got it.

Before BB even did his press conference multiple people had recreated the conditions necessary to prove it was possible with no wrong doings using simple physics.

While conversely no one ever explicitly said they were gauged.

The more important information from the BB press conference is that he said after the balls were prepared they were given to the officials and asked the officials to inflate them to the desired 12.5 psi - which means one of two things.

1. The internal study done by the Pats found that the psi of the balls were artificially increased by the ball prep, in conjunction with the elements caused a natural decrease in psi in line with what transpired.

or 2. The refs didn't properly inflate the balls to 12.5 as requested.

 

[General Tso]

Jesus H. - look at this video from HeadSmart Labs operated by Carnegie Mellon - one of the top engineering/research universities on earth. They started with 12 balls in a 75 degree room at 12.5 psi. They then simulated the outdoor conditions that night - 50 degrees and wet - and remeasured. The balls dropped 1.8 to 1.9 psi. How on earth does the NFL not shut this down immediately? What a ####### joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CxsXFX3tDpg&app=desktop

 

[General Tso]

Just heard some idiot on the radio go on for about 5 minutes about how the Wall Street Journal "proved" today that the Pats use illegal footballs because their ridiculously good fumble rate is a "statistical outlier".

So just wondering... when is that investigation being launched into Peyton Manning's 55 touchdown passes last season?

 

[PhD]

So BB and the gang went back to the scene of the crime to shift the perspective of the evidence. So basic. Not even believable in the best of Hollywood scripts.

Seriously though, they came off better when they were saying it's not a big deal. Now they just seem to be a little too defensive as if they are trying vehemently to end the conversation that is getting dangerously close to something really really bad.

There are many arguments against their pseudoscience.

Such as?

OK, I'll bite -

Where was the science? use of terms like atmospheric conditions and equilibrium?

He refers to an "internal study" but he has the luxury to hide behind the fact that he "is not a scientist" so he does not have to answer to the specific questions, and although he notes that they consulted with lots of people, he does not give the names (so no one can get more scientific information). Bottom line is that when running studies there are details that are critical to review and they need to be clearly and carefully clarified. For example:

(1) define the "process" the balls go through - he didn't come close other than referring to rub downs;

(2) define the timing of the "process" vs the timing of the game day process. He seems to suggest that on game day the rub down process continues to occur right up to the time in which the balls are handed to the officials. Really? This isn't something that is prepared ahead of time? something so important to every QB isn't settled until just before it is given to the officials? If it is done ahead of time then how far ahead? How long do they "process" the balls on game day? How long did you "process" the balls for the internal study? What is the change in psi from the last rub down to the handing off to the officials? For that matter how long does it take the officials to measure the psi after getting the balls from the team? Is this important? Well, that too is an empirical question - ie, if there is no change between the official hand off to the official measurement then it isn't important, but until that is demonstrated it would be a variable that needs to be considered and then compared between the internal study and the actual game day process.

(3) they used "multiple" balls in their internal study, "not just one." Well, how many? 2? 6? 12? 24? 48? Maybe it seems crazy to test 48 balls, but isn't that how many were included in the total set at game day? Heck Pats, at least tell us that you tested 12 balls just like the allegedly tampered set on game day. The sample size is a HUGE variable here (think about all the fantasy football stats issues here when we go into sample size - same variable here that needs to be defined). Based on his report, unless I missed something, they could have done this with 2.

(4) They put the balls through simulated game day situations -- this needs to be operationally defined. What do they think happens to the ball during a game? at what force? at what frequency? (cue the Gronk lovers here). How did they simulate that exactly?

(5) They refer to "controlled conditions" which seemed to imply at least the temperature of the rooms. Anything else effect the air pressure of a ball? If it was truly controlled then this would be one of the easiest points to define.

(6) BB notes a critical issue towards the end of his explanation in that he says that gauges vary in their measurements and no two footballs are exactly alike. The latter point is a big reason why they need to define their sample size (and it had better have been substantial). The measurement variance is huge. It would not be too difficult to determine the type of gauge used by officials at the stadium and then use the exact same type. The whole internal study can hinge on this point alone. They may have a gauge that is inconsistent with the officials measurements, making any comparison invalid. Heck their gauge may be inconsistent/unreliable thereby giving a different measurement post simulation simply because it gives a different reading each time. They need to define that too (getting tired of this yet?)

(7) The QB "feel test". OK, now we are going into some social psychology. BB explained that they had their QBs test the feel to see if they could differentiate between the balls based on psi. You really mean to tell me that rookie backup Garappollo is going to say that he can feel the difference when (a) the internal study may hinge on this AND (b) the great Tommy Boy already said that he couldn't do it? Right. The social pressure alone makes this an invalid "measurement". They need to test other QBs. Now keep in mind that many QBs have already said that they could do this but even those opinions should be tested for accuracy - that is IF you are trying to conduct some sort of internal scientific study.

(8) Finally, not really part of their study but he makes a big claim that they train in extreme conditions and they would never go the opposite route and train with weak equipment [my words, not his]. This is at best irrelevant and worse part of the point of advantage - what they do when they train isn't the issue, it's game day balls. That said, if they trained hard and had it easy on game day it boosts confidence if not performance (e.g., try running with ankle weights for 10-min and then run a sprint and tell me you don't feel faster).

Does some of this sound overly demanding? Well, that is the detail of science for you. Definition and replication within a scientific method is required.

If this was done to settle the masses it seemed to work a little bit, based on the reactions of so many of you. But, if this was meant to hold water as a scientific study ... sorry. The NFL could and should shoot this junk down pretty easily.

 

[Run It Up]

So BB and the gang went back to the scene of the crime to shift the perspective of the evidence. So basic. Not even believable in the best of Hollywood scripts.

Seriously though, they came off better when they were saying it's not a big deal. Now they just seem to be a little too defensive as if they are trying vehemently to end the conversation that is getting dangerously close to something really really bad.

There are many arguments against their pseudoscience.

Such as?

OK, I'll bite -

Where was the science? use of terms like atmospheric conditions and equilibrium?

He refers to an "internal study" but he has the luxury to hide behind the fact that he "is not a scientist" so he does not have to answer to the specific questions, and although he notes that they consulted with lots of people, he does not give the names (so no one can get more scientific information). Bottom line is that when running studies there are details that are critical to review and they need to be clearly and carefully clarified. For example:

(1) define the "process" the balls go through - he didn't come close other than referring to rub downs;

(2) define the timing of the "process" vs the timing of the game day process. He seems to suggest that on game day the rub down process continues to occur right up to the time in which the balls are handed to the officials. Really? This isn't something that is prepared ahead of time? something so important to every QB isn't settled until just before it is given to the officials? If it is done ahead of time then how far ahead? How long do they "process" the balls on game day? How long did you "process" the balls for the internal study? What is the change in psi from the last rub down to the handing off to the officials? For that matter how long does it take the officials to measure the psi after getting the balls from the team? Is this important? Well, that too is an empirical question - ie, if there is no change between the official hand off to the official measurement then it isn't important, but until that is demonstrated it would be a variable that needs to be considered and then compared between the internal study and the actual game day process.

(3) they used "multiple" balls in their internal study, "not just one." Well, how many? 2? 6? 12? 24? 48? Maybe it seems crazy to test 48 balls, but isn't that how many were included in the total set at game day? Heck Pats, at least tell us that you tested 12 balls just like the allegedly tampered set on game day. The sample size is a HUGE variable here (think about all the fantasy football stats issues here when we go into sample size - same variable here that needs to be defined). Based on his report, unless I missed something, they could have done this with 2.

(4) They put the balls through simulated game day situations -- this needs to be operationally defined. What do they think happens to the ball during a game? at what force? at what frequency? (cue the Gronk lovers here). How did they simulate that exactly?

(5) They refer to "controlled conditions" which seemed to imply at least the temperature of the rooms. Anything else effect the air pressure of a ball? If it was truly controlled then this would be one of the easiest points to define.

(6) BB notes a critical issue towards the end of his explanation in that he says that gauges vary in their measurements and no two footballs are exactly alike. The latter point is a big reason why they need to define their sample size (and it had better have been substantial). The measurement variance is huge. It would not be too difficult to determine the type of gauge used by officials at the stadium and then use the exact same type. The whole internal study can hinge on this point alone. They may have a gauge that is inconsistent with the officials measurements, making any comparison invalid. Heck their gauge may be inconsistent/unreliable thereby giving a different measurement post simulation simply because it gives a different reading each time. They need to define that too (getting tired of this yet?)

(7) The QB "feel test". OK, now we are going into some social psychology. BB explained that they had their QBs test the feel to see if they could differentiate between the balls based on psi. You really mean to tell me that rookie backup Garappollo is going to say that he can feel the difference when (a) the internal study may hinge on this AND (b) the great Tommy Boy already said that he couldn't do it? Right. The social pressure alone makes this an invalid "measurement". They need to test other QBs. Now keep in mind that many QBs have already said that they could do this but even those opinions should be tested for accuracy - that is IF you are trying to conduct some sort of internal scientific study.

(8) Finally, not really part of their study but he makes a big claim that they train in extreme conditions and they would never go the opposite route and train with weak equipment [my words, not his]. This is at best irrelevant and worse part of the point of advantage - what they do when they train isn't the issue, it's game day balls. That said, if they trained hard and had it easy on game day it boosts confidence if not performance (e.g., try running with ankle weights for 10-min and then run a sprint and tell me you don't feel faster).

Does some of this sound overly demanding? Well, that is the detail of science for you. Definition and replication within a scientific method is required.

If this was done to settle the masses it seemed to work a little bit, based on the reactions of so many of you. But, if this was meant to hold water as a scientific study ... sorry. The NFL could and should shoot this junk down pretty easily.

I hope you're holding your breath

 

[General Tso]

So BB and the gang went back to the scene of the crime to shift the perspective of the evidence. So basic. Not even believable in the best of Hollywood scripts.

Seriously though, they came off better when they were saying it's not a big deal. Now they just seem to be a little too defensive as if they are trying vehemently to end the conversation that is getting dangerously close to something really really bad.

There are many arguments against their pseudoscience.

Such as?

OK, I'll bite -

Where was the science? use of terms like atmospheric conditions and equilibrium?

He refers to an "internal study" but he has the luxury to hide behind the fact that he "is not a scientist" so he does not have to answer to the specific questions, and although he notes that they consulted with lots of people, he does not give the names (so no one can get more scientific information). Bottom line is that when running studies there are details that are critical to review and they need to be clearly and carefully clarified. For example:

(1) define the "process" the balls go through - he didn't come close other than referring to rub downs;

(2) define the timing of the "process" vs the timing of the game day process. He seems to suggest that on game day the rub down process continues to occur right up to the time in which the balls are handed to the officials. Really? This isn't something that is prepared ahead of time? something so important to every QB isn't settled until just before it is given to the officials? If it is done ahead of time then how far ahead? How long do they "process" the balls on game day? How long did you "process" the balls for the internal study? What is the change in psi from the last rub down to the handing off to the officials? For that matter how long does it take the officials to measure the psi after getting the balls from the team? Is this important? Well, that too is an empirical question - ie, if there is no change between the official hand off to the official measurement then it isn't important, but until that is demonstrated it would be a variable that needs to be considered and then compared between the internal study and the actual game day process.

(3) they used "multiple" balls in their internal study, "not just one." Well, how many? 2? 6? 12? 24? 48? Maybe it seems crazy to test 48 balls, but isn't that how many were included in the total set at game day? Heck Pats, at least tell us that you tested 12 balls just like the allegedly tampered set on game day. The sample size is a HUGE variable here (think about all the fantasy football stats issues here when we go into sample size - same variable here that needs to be defined). Based on his report, unless I missed something, they could have done this with 2.

(4) They put the balls through simulated game day situations -- this needs to be operationally defined. What do they think happens to the ball during a game? at what force? at what frequency? (cue the Gronk lovers here). How did they simulate that exactly?

(5) They refer to "controlled conditions" which seemed to imply at least the temperature of the rooms. Anything else effect the air pressure of a ball? If it was truly controlled then this would be one of the easiest points to define.

(6) BB notes a critical issue towards the end of his explanation in that he says that gauges vary in their measurements and no two footballs are exactly alike. The latter point is a big reason why they need to define their sample size (and it had better have been substantial). The measurement variance is huge. It would not be too difficult to determine the type of gauge used by officials at the stadium and then use the exact same type. The whole internal study can hinge on this point alone. They may have a gauge that is inconsistent with the officials measurements, making any comparison invalid. Heck their gauge may be inconsistent/unreliable thereby giving a different measurement post simulation simply because it gives a different reading each time. They need to define that too (getting tired of this yet?)

(7) The QB "feel test". OK, now we are going into some social psychology. BB explained that they had their QBs test the feel to see if they could differentiate between the balls based on psi. You really mean to tell me that rookie backup Garappollo is going to say that he can feel the difference when (a) the internal study may hinge on this AND (b) the great Tommy Boy already said that he couldn't do it? Right. The social pressure alone makes this an invalid "measurement". They need to test other QBs. Now keep in mind that many QBs have already said that they could do this but even those opinions should be tested for accuracy - that is IF you are trying to conduct some sort of internal scientific study.

(8) Finally, not really part of their study but he makes a big claim that they train in extreme conditions and they would never go the opposite route and train with weak equipment [my words, not his]. This is at best irrelevant and worse part of the point of advantage - what they do when they train isn't the issue, it's game day balls. That said, if they trained hard and had it easy on game day it boosts confidence if not performance (e.g., try running with ankle weights for 10-min and then run a sprint and tell me you don't feel faster).

Does some of this sound overly demanding? Well, that is the detail of science for you. Definition and replication within a scientific method is required.

If this was done to settle the masses it seemed to work a little bit, based on the reactions of so many of you. But, if this was meant to hold water as a scientific study ... sorry. The NFL could and should shoot this junk down pretty easily.

Hey Doc - did you watch the video two posts up from yours? Also, in this country you're presumed innocent until proven guilty. Which is kind of ironic, because thus far the evidence I have seen strongly suggests that atmospheric conditions alone can reduce the psi of a football up to and beyond 2.0 psi. This whole thing is a complete farce at this point. You gonna believe your precious science at this point? Or are you going to believe that the Pats got the balls 10 minutes before kickoff, then doctored the balls surreptitiously on the sidelines, in plain view of everyone, by taking out exactly 2 psi in every football? If so, I've got another great video to show you about how difficult it is to take 2 psi out of a football with a needle consistently. It's almost impossible to do without a gauge.

 

[((Morpheus))]

So BB and the gang went back to the scene of the crime to shift the perspective of the evidence. So basic. Not even believable in the best of Hollywood scripts.

Seriously though, they came off better when they were saying it's not a big deal. Now they just seem to be a little too defensive as if they are trying vehemently to end the conversation that is getting dangerously close to something really really bad.

There are many arguments against their pseudoscience.

Such as?

OK, I'll bite -

Where was the science? use of terms like atmospheric conditions and equilibrium?

He refers to an "internal study" but he has the luxury to hide behind the fact that he "is not a scientist" so he does not have to answer to the specific questions, and although he notes that they consulted with lots of people, he does not give the names (so no one can get more scientific information). Bottom line is that when running studies there are details that are critical to review and they need to be clearly and carefully clarified. For example:

(1) define the "process" the balls go through - he didn't come close other than referring to rub downs;

(2) define the timing of the "process" vs the timing of the game day process. He seems to suggest that on game day the rub down process continues to occur right up to the time in which the balls are handed to the officials. Really? This isn't something that is prepared ahead of time? something so important to every QB isn't settled until just before it is given to the officials? If it is done ahead of time then how far ahead? How long do they "process" the balls on game day? How long did you "process" the balls for the internal study? What is the change in psi from the last rub down to the handing off to the officials? For that matter how long does it take the officials to measure the psi after getting the balls from the team? Is this important? Well, that too is an empirical question - ie, if there is no change between the official hand off to the official measurement then it isn't important, but until that is demonstrated it would be a variable that needs to be considered and then compared between the internal study and the actual game day process.

(3) they used "multiple" balls in their internal study, "not just one." Well, how many? 2? 6? 12? 24? 48? Maybe it seems crazy to test 48 balls, but isn't that how many were included in the total set at game day? Heck Pats, at least tell us that you tested 12 balls just like the allegedly tampered set on game day. The sample size is a HUGE variable here (think about all the fantasy football stats issues here when we go into sample size - same variable here that needs to be defined). Based on his report, unless I missed something, they could have done this with 2.

(4) They put the balls through simulated game day situations -- this needs to be operationally defined. What do they think happens to the ball during a game? at what force? at what frequency? (cue the Gronk lovers here). How did they simulate that exactly?

(5) They refer to "controlled conditions" which seemed to imply at least the temperature of the rooms. Anything else effect the air pressure of a ball? If it was truly controlled then this would be one of the easiest points to define.

(6) BB notes a critical issue towards the end of his explanation in that he says that gauges vary in their measurements and no two footballs are exactly alike. The latter point is a big reason why they need to define their sample size (and it had better have been substantial). The measurement variance is huge. It would not be too difficult to determine the type of gauge used by officials at the stadium and then use the exact same type. The whole internal study can hinge on this point alone. They may have a gauge that is inconsistent with the officials measurements, making any comparison invalid. Heck their gauge may be inconsistent/unreliable thereby giving a different measurement post simulation simply because it gives a different reading each time. They need to define that too (getting tired of this yet?)

(7) The QB "feel test". OK, now we are going into some social psychology. BB explained that they had their QBs test the feel to see if they could differentiate between the balls based on psi. You really mean to tell me that rookie backup Garappollo is going to say that he can feel the difference when (a) the internal study may hinge on this AND (b) the great Tommy Boy already said that he couldn't do it? Right. The social pressure alone makes this an invalid "measurement". They need to test other QBs. Now keep in mind that many QBs have already said that they could do this but even those opinions should be tested for accuracy - that is IF you are trying to conduct some sort of internal scientific study.

(8) Finally, not really part of their study but he makes a big claim that they train in extreme conditions and they would never go the opposite route and train with weak equipment [my words, not his]. This is at best irrelevant and worse part of the point of advantage - what they do when they train isn't the issue, it's game day balls. That said, if they trained hard and had it easy on game day it boosts confidence if not performance (e.g., try running with ankle weights for 10-min and then run a sprint and tell me you don't feel faster).

Does some of this sound overly demanding? Well, that is the detail of science for you. Definition and replication within a scientific method is required.

If this was done to settle the masses it seemed to work a little bit, based on the reactions of so many of you. But, if this was meant to hold water as a scientific study ... sorry. The NFL could and should shoot this junk down pretty easily.

Ballghazi!!!1!!

 

[PatsWillWin]

So BB and the gang went back to the scene of the crime to shift the perspective of the evidence. So basic. Not even believable in the best of Hollywood scripts.

Seriously though, they came off better when they were saying it's not a big deal. Now they just seem to be a little too defensive as if they are trying vehemently to end the conversation that is getting dangerously close to something really really bad.

There are many arguments against their pseudoscience.

Such as?

OK, I'll bite -

Where was the science? use of terms like atmospheric conditions and equilibrium?

He refers to an "internal study" but he has the luxury to hide behind the fact that he "is not a scientist" so he does not have to answer to the specific questions, and although he notes that they consulted with lots of people, he does not give the names (so no one can get more scientific information). Bottom line is that when running studies there are details that are critical to review and they need to be clearly and carefully clarified. For example:

(1) define the "process" the balls go through - he didn't come close other than referring to rub downs;

(2) define the timing of the "process" vs the timing of the game day process. He seems to suggest that on game day the rub down process continues to occur right up to the time in which the balls are handed to the officials. Really? This isn't something that is prepared ahead of time? something so important to every QB isn't settled until just before it is given to the officials? If it is done ahead of time then how far ahead? How long do they "process" the balls on game day? How long did you "process" the balls for the internal study? What is the change in psi from the last rub down to the handing off to the officials? For that matter how long does it take the officials to measure the psi after getting the balls from the team? Is this important? Well, that too is an empirical question - ie, if there is no change between the official hand off to the official measurement then it isn't important, but until that is demonstrated it would be a variable that needs to be considered and then compared between the internal study and the actual game day process.

(3) they used "multiple" balls in their internal study, "not just one." Well, how many? 2? 6? 12? 24? 48? Maybe it seems crazy to test 48 balls, but isn't that how many were included in the total set at game day? Heck Pats, at least tell us that you tested 12 balls just like the allegedly tampered set on game day. The sample size is a HUGE variable here (think about all the fantasy football stats issues here when we go into sample size - same variable here that needs to be defined). Based on his report, unless I missed something, they could have done this with 2.

(4) They put the balls through simulated game day situations -- this needs to be operationally defined. What do they think happens to the ball during a game? at what force? at what frequency? (cue the Gronk lovers here). How did they simulate that exactly?

(5) They refer to "controlled conditions" which seemed to imply at least the temperature of the rooms. Anything else effect the air pressure of a ball? If it was truly controlled then this would be one of the easiest points to define.

(6) BB notes a critical issue towards the end of his explanation in that he says that gauges vary in their measurements and no two footballs are exactly alike. The latter point is a big reason why they need to define their sample size (and it had better have been substantial). The measurement variance is huge. It would not be too difficult to determine the type of gauge used by officials at the stadium and then use the exact same type. The whole internal study can hinge on this point alone. They may have a gauge that is inconsistent with the officials measurements, making any comparison invalid. Heck their gauge may be inconsistent/unreliable thereby giving a different measurement post simulation simply because it gives a different reading each time. They need to define that too (getting tired of this yet?)

(7) The QB "feel test". OK, now we are going into some social psychology. BB explained that they had their QBs test the feel to see if they could differentiate between the balls based on psi. You really mean to tell me that rookie backup Garappollo is going to say that he can feel the difference when (a) the internal study may hinge on this AND (b) the great Tommy Boy already said that he couldn't do it? Right. The social pressure alone makes this an invalid "measurement". They need to test other QBs. Now keep in mind that many QBs have already said that they could do this but even those opinions should be tested for accuracy - that is IF you are trying to conduct some sort of internal scientific study.

(8) Finally, not really part of their study but he makes a big claim that they train in extreme conditions and they would never go the opposite route and train with weak equipment [my words, not his]. This is at best irrelevant and worse part of the point of advantage - what they do when they train isn't the issue, it's game day balls. That said, if they trained hard and had it easy on game day it boosts confidence if not performance (e.g., try running with ankle weights for 10-min and then run a sprint and tell me you don't feel faster).

Does some of this sound overly demanding? Well, that is the detail of science for you. Definition and replication within a scientific method is required.

If this was done to settle the masses it seemed to work a little bit, based on the reactions of so many of you. But, if this was meant to hold water as a scientific study ... sorry. The NFL could and should shoot this junk down pretty easily.

He's not submitting an article to a peer-reviewed journal, numbnuts. He's giving a 30 minute press conference.

And again, the burden of proof is on the NFL. The NFL is investigating how a pressure of a ball got to a certain amount. Belichick said "here's why." The NFL's job hasn't really changed - their job is to determine if the balls were doctored after the pre-game inspection. Again, this press conference was to get the bad press off of his quarterback, his team, and probably his boss. The Krafts can not be happy about this. This wasn't to "prove" anything to the NFL, or every butthurt Jets fan on the internet.

He gave a (IMO) perfectly valid explanation that has support based on other scientific explanations I've seen.

People wanting to see a 90 page lab report as as unreasonable as the crazy Patriots fan who 40 pages ago said that the NFL would need a higher standard of proof than a murder conviction requires in order to sanction the Patriots.

Keep your heads.

 

[PhD]

No doubt. I was simply asked to provide some arguments against his pseudo science.

But let's be equally clear here that (a) he is NOT using science to back him up. And (b) his whole press conference was his OPINION about what could have happened. And that opinion so confident described was just as scientific as anything that anyone else has offered in all of these pages - in fact it's probably less.

Bringing up science to back him up is just opening up a new can of worms.

Don't kill the messenger.