Patriots being investigated after Colts game (1 Viewer)

[hagmania]

I'm sort of jealous I'm not a Pats fan now.

 

[massraider]

The only way they got the text messages was by McNally and Jasremski turning over their phones.

Brady refused to turn over emails and his phone. Makes me wonder what was on there. He'd rather face the backlash of refusing to cooperate in an NFL investigation (a major no-no) that let them see his emails or text messages.

I'm sure there's a million TMZ fans eager to get a peek at Brady's phone.Probably his underwear drawer, too

Umm, too bad?

Just one more thing that makes him look bad

 

[Anarchy99]

What the league does from here is going to be really interesting to follow. Some of the talking heads that I have been listening to are calling for a cataclysmic penalty . . . like 8-16 game suspensions for Brady AND Belichick, huge fines, and loss of multiple first round picks. Other folks think it will be mostly fines and at most a couple of games for just Brady.

Just to recap, the NFL's game operations manual states: "Once the balls have left the locker room, no one, including players, equipment managers, ball boys, and coaches, is allowed to alter the footballs in any way. If any individual alters the footballs, or if a non-approved ball is used in the game, the person responsible and, if appropriate, the head coach or other club personnel will be subject to discipline, including but not limited to, a fine of $25,000."

Certainly they can levy more than a fine, but the way that is written it almost seems like they don't consider it a huge deal. That's part of the issue I have with the league rules in general. If they spelled out exactly what the penalties would be for specific infractions, then the league could avoid a lot of the issues on rulings and penalties.

 

[MG345]

What the league does from here is going to be really interesting to follow. Some of the talking heads that I have been listening to are calling for a cataclysmic penalty . . . like 8-16 game suspensions for Brady AND Belichick, huge fines, and loss of multiple first round picks. Other folks think it will be mostly fines and at most a couple of games for just Brady.

Just to recap, the NFL's game operations manual states: "Once the balls have left the locker room, no one, including players, equipment managers, ball boys, and coaches, is allowed to alter the footballs in any way. If any individual alters the footballs, or if a non-approved ball is used in the game, the person responsible and, if appropriate, the head coach or other club personnel will be subject to discipline, including but not limited to, a fine of $25,000."

Certainly they can levy more than a fine, but the way that is written it almost seems like they don't consider it a huge deal. That's part of the issue I have with the league rules in general. If they spelled out exactly what the penalties would be for specific infractions, then the league could avoid a lot of the issues on rulings and penalties.

The problem is, the Pats were already warned once in 2004 about providing practice balls instead of game balls. They were told then that if another similar incident happened, they would be considered as trying to disrupt the competitive balance of the game. It is very similar to the Bountygate and Spygate situations, in that they were told to stop, and they didn't. So it isn't just the fact that they tampered with the balls now, it is also the fact that it is the second offense of this nature (and that doesn't take into account Spygate). The rules are very clear in this regard, messing with the competitive balance of the game is a big offense.

On top of that you have the cover up, which again we have examples on how the NFL views cover ups and they considered to be worse than the crime itself in most cases. I have a feeling we could see some major penalties assessed against Brady and company.

 

[rockaction]

On top of that you have the cover up, which again we have examples on how the NFL views cover ups and they considered to be worse than the crime itself in most cases. I have a feeling we could see some major penalties assessed against Brady and company.

If only.

 

[Jail]

What the league does from here is going to be really interesting to follow. Some of the talking heads that I have been listening to are calling for a cataclysmic penalty . . . like 8-16 game suspensions for Brady AND Belichick, huge fines, and loss of multiple first round picks. Other folks think it will be mostly fines and at most a couple of games for just Brady.

Just to recap, the NFL's game operations manual states: "Once the balls have left the locker room, no one, including players, equipment managers, ball boys, and coaches, is allowed to alter the footballs in any way. If any individual alters the footballs, or if a non-approved ball is used in the game, the person responsible and, if appropriate, the head coach or other club personnel will be subject to discipline, including but not limited to, a fine of $25,000."

Certainly they can levy more than a fine, but the way that is written it almost seems like they don't consider it a huge deal. That's part of the issue I have with the league rules in general. If they spelled out exactly what the penalties would be for specific infractions, then the league could avoid a lot of the issues on rulings and penalties.

This is just establishing a minimum. I don't know if I'd call it minor when they are saying you are going to get fined $25K as a minimum.

 

[Shutout]

The only way they got the text messages was by McNally and Jasremski turning over their phones.

Brady refused to turn over emails and his phone. Makes me wonder what was on there. He'd rather face the backlash of refusing to cooperate in an NFL investigation (a major no-no) that let them see his emails or text messages.

Or maybe he's just got a lot of hot nude pics of his wife on there.

If you are (or were) dating or married to a hot little freak and your boss says "Hey Mass, I need to check your phone for some stuff and I'll give it back later", are you doing that? I'm not.

Or maybe he's just one of those millions and millions of people out there that takes a hard stand on the bill of rights.

 

[RUSF18]

Troy Aikmans comments:

"Sean Payton did not cheat," Aikman contended. "There was nothing that Sean Payton and the Saints did that was illegal. And they did not give themselves a competitive edge. I maintain, regardless of whatever was said in the locker room, and in that locker room, is not anything different than what's been said in any other locker room around the league. There's no proof on the field of what took place that guys were targeting players. You can always pull out a play here and there. They were one of the least penalized teams for unsportsmanlike conduct. So there was no evidence that anything translated to the field that they were trying to hurt players. And they did not give themselves a competitive advantage.

"Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they've cheated and given themselves an advantage," Aikman said. "To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints."

Aikman explained that the NFL can't hide from this at a time when New England is the focus.

"There's a great deal of pressure on Roger Goodell, in light of everything that's happened this year, and the way that he's handled all of these situations, and hasn't handled them particularly well by the way, and on this particular case, because there's a lot of coaches and a lot of people that look upon the Patriots as a team that's been favored in some of the things that have happened -- I thought the punishment he got for Spygate was a slap on the wrist, was next to nothing -- so we'll see."

I'm no Belichick fan but I don't think the "ignorance isn't an excuse" that got put on Payton should really apply here. A defensive coordinator operating this scheme with multiple players of his defensive unit, with the awards being communicated openly during team meetings, sure feels a lot closer to the head coach than a QB working with a couple of equipment managers over the condition of the ball.

 

[Shutout]

Troy Aikmans comments:

"Sean Payton did not cheat," Aikman contended. "There was nothing that Sean Payton and the Saints did that was illegal. And they did not give themselves a competitive edge. I maintain, regardless of whatever was said in the locker room, and in that locker room, is not anything different than what's been said in any other locker room around the league. There's no proof on the field of what took place that guys were targeting players. You can always pull out a play here and there. They were one of the least penalized teams for unsportsmanlike conduct. So there was no evidence that anything translated to the field that they were trying to hurt players. And they did not give themselves a competitive advantage.

"Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they've cheated and given themselves an advantage," Aikman said. "To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints."

Aikman explained that the NFL can't hide from this at a time when New England is the focus.

"There's a great deal of pressure on Roger Goodell, in light of everything that's happened this year, and the way that he's handled all of these situations, and hasn't handled them particularly well by the way, and on this particular case, because there's a lot of coaches and a lot of people that look upon the Patriots as a team that's been favored in some of the things that have happened -- I thought the punishment he got for Spygate was a slap on the wrist, was next to nothing -- so we'll see."

Okay, so lets say this goes down the worst slippery slope there is and Hoodie found himself suspended for a year and/or Brady did as well.

Can you imagine the ramifications this has on the league, on the careers of Brady and Hoodie? On the asterisk that will forever loom over the entire era of Patriots football?

I know we can't be this simple about it but unless I thought that those balls changed one danged thing about NFL football last year, I would hate to see the career of these guys slighted, the numbers skewed, etc.

 

[SacramentoBob]

So as predicted there is no damning evidence of any wrong doing by Brady or the Pats. That's all I really care about. "More likely than not to have done something" means nothing to me. We have the Pats fans who think it's a joke and the haters who had the noose hanging going in. Each side is going to believe what they want. It's like a bunch of liberals and conservatives arguing, there will be no common ground. It's over as far as I'm concerned. Carry on.

Did we already get a winner for the delusional fan post?

It's a contender.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

Troy Aikmans comments:

"Sean Payton did not cheat," Aikman contended. "There was nothing that Sean Payton and the Saints did that was illegal. And they did not give themselves a competitive edge. I maintain, regardless of whatever was said in the locker room, and in that locker room, is not anything different than what's been said in any other locker room around the league. There's no proof on the field of what took place that guys were targeting players. You can always pull out a play here and there. They were one of the least penalized teams for unsportsmanlike conduct. So there was no evidence that anything translated to the field that they were trying to hurt players. And they did not give themselves a competitive advantage.

"Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they've cheated and given themselves an advantage," Aikman said. "To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints."

Aikman explained that the NFL can't hide from this at a time when New England is the focus.

"There's a great deal of pressure on Roger Goodell, in light of everything that's happened this year, and the way that he's handled all of these situations, and hasn't handled them particularly well by the way, and on this particular case, because there's a lot of coaches and a lot of people that look upon the Patriots as a team that's been favored in some of the things that have happened -- I thought the punishment he got for Spygate was a slap on the wrist, was next to nothing -- so we'll see."

Spygate, Deflategate and whats the other one Im missing?

 

[Bri]

so here's the problem:

page 113 of the wells report:

According to Exponent, based on the most likely pressure and temperature values for the Patriots game balls on the day of the AFC Championship Game (i.e., a starting pressure of 12.5 psi, a starting temperature of between 67 and 71 degrees and a final temperature of 48 degrees),the Ideal Gas Law predicts that the Patriots balls should have measured between 11.52 and 11.32 psi at the end of the first half, just before they were brought back into the Officials Locker Room.

or, a pressure differential of 0.98 to 1.18.

The balls were measured at half time with two gauges - referred to as a "Logo" gauge and a "NonLogo" gauge. on page 116:

In addition, Exponent determined that when the Logo and Non-Logo Gauges measure an identical pressure, different readings are produced. According to Exponent, the Logo Gauge produced readings that were generally in the range of 0.3-0.4 psi higher than the NonLogo Gauge. However, for a given set of measurements, the differential between the gauges generally remained consistent when compared to a calibrated gauge. In other words, in the short term, both the Logo Gauge and Non-Logo Gauge read consistently, though differently from each other. Exponent‟s experimental results were aligned with the measurements recorded at halftime, which indicated a consistent gauge-to-gauge differential of 0.3-0.45 psi.

so lets look at the raw data (page 8):

ball blakeman piroleau diffpat1 11.5 11.8 -0.3pat2 10.85 11.2 -0.35pat3 11.15 11.5 -0.35pat4 10.7 11 -0.3pat5 11.1 11.45 -0.35pat6 11.6 11.95 -0.35pat7 11.85 12.3 -0.45pat8 11.1 11.55 -0.45pat9 10.95 11.35 -0.4pat10 10.5 10.9 -0.4pat11 10.9 11.35 -0.45 colt1 12.7 12.35 0.35colt2 12.75 12.3 0.45colt3 12.5 12.95 -0.45colt4 12.55 12.15 0.4you can see that gauge difference reflected in these measurements, and see that Prioleau must have used the Logo gauge. Note that it appears blakeman and Prioleau mixed up the gauges while measuring the Colts balls, as noted in the report: (pg 116)

Clete Blakeman most likely used the Non-Logo Gauge and Dyrol Prioleau most likely used the Logo Gauge to test the Patriots game balls at halftime, and that the game officials most likely switched gauges before measuring the Colts balls at halftime.

Here's my beef: which gauge was used for the pre-game inspection?

The Wells report concludes that "Anderson most likely used the NonLogo gauge to inspect the game balls prior to the game." I'm not clear on how that assumption can be made. Here's why it matters:

Assume the logo gauge was used pre-game to set the Pats balls to 12.5. if you were to check those same balls with the non-logo gauge, you could see measurements as low as 12.05 PSI, before you even take them outside. If you then apply the 1.18 PSI pressure drop, you would expect these perfectly legal, cold balls to have a pressure of no less than 10.87 when measured non-logo gauge.

looking at the data above, three out of the 11 measured balls fell below that threshhold, and two of those were really, really close to the edge. When you get down to it, there is only one ball out of spec here.

I'm curious to know why they assume Anderson used the non-logo gauge.

Also air is expelled to test. It should be less with each test.

 

[MG345]

Troy Aikmans comments:

"Sean Payton did not cheat," Aikman contended. "There was nothing that Sean Payton and the Saints did that was illegal. And they did not give themselves a competitive edge. I maintain, regardless of whatever was said in the locker room, and in that locker room, is not anything different than what's been said in any other locker room around the league. There's no proof on the field of what took place that guys were targeting players. You can always pull out a play here and there. They were one of the least penalized teams for unsportsmanlike conduct. So there was no evidence that anything translated to the field that they were trying to hurt players. And they did not give themselves a competitive advantage.

"Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they've cheated and given themselves an advantage," Aikman said. "To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints."

Aikman explained that the NFL can't hide from this at a time when New England is the focus.

"There's a great deal of pressure on Roger Goodell, in light of everything that's happened this year, and the way that he's handled all of these situations, and hasn't handled them particularly well by the way, and on this particular case, because there's a lot of coaches and a lot of people that look upon the Patriots as a team that's been favored in some of the things that have happened -- I thought the punishment he got for Spygate was a slap on the wrist, was next to nothing -- so we'll see."

Spygate, Deflategate and whats the other one Im missing?

Not sure what Aikman is referring to, but it could be the time the Pats provide practice balls for a game rather than game balls. They were reprimanded for it, and told that if they did it again they could expect hefty punishment.

 

[hagmania]

So as predicted there is no damning evidence of any wrong doing by Brady or the Pats. That's all I really care about. "More likely than not to have done something" means nothing to me. We have the Pats fans who think it's a joke and the haters who had the noose hanging going in. Each side is going to believe what they want. It's like a bunch of liberals and conservatives arguing, there will be no common ground. It's over as far as I'm concerned. Carry on.

Did we already get a winner for the delusional fan post?

It's a contender.

I reread D1 and espnespn stands out.

 

[BroadwayG]

Troy Aikmans comments:

"Sean Payton did not cheat," Aikman contended. "There was nothing that Sean Payton and the Saints did that was illegal. And they did not give themselves a competitive edge. I maintain, regardless of whatever was said in the locker room, and in that locker room, is not anything different than what's been said in any other locker room around the league. There's no proof on the field of what took place that guys were targeting players. You can always pull out a play here and there. They were one of the least penalized teams for unsportsmanlike conduct. So there was no evidence that anything translated to the field that they were trying to hurt players. And they did not give themselves a competitive advantage.

"Now twice, under Bill Belichick and possibly a third time, they've cheated and given themselves an advantage," Aikman said. "To me, the punishment for the Patriots and/or Bill Belichick has to be more severe than what the punishment was for the New Orleans Saints."

Aikman explained that the NFL can't hide from this at a time when New England is the focus.

"There's a great deal of pressure on Roger Goodell, in light of everything that's happened this year, and the way that he's handled all of these situations, and hasn't handled them particularly well by the way, and on this particular case, because there's a lot of coaches and a lot of people that look upon the Patriots as a team that's been favored in some of the things that have happened -- I thought the punishment he got for Spygate was a slap on the wrist, was next to nothing -- so we'll see."

Spygate, Deflategate and whats the other one Im missing?

snowplowgate tuckrulegate

 

[SacramentoBob]

So as predicted there is no damning evidence of any wrong doing by Brady or the Pats. That's all I really care about. "More likely than not to have done something" means nothing to me. We have the Pats fans who think it's a joke and the haters who had the noose hanging going in. Each side is going to believe what they want. It's like a bunch of liberals and conservatives arguing, there will be no common ground. It's over as far as I'm concerned. Carry on.

Did we already get a winner for the delusional fan post?

It's a contender.

I reread D1 and espnespn stands out.

I could go here.

proxy hagmania

 

[GregR]

TL;DR if people want to save some reading

I see where you're going with this... but I can't tell from the picture whether the football on the trophy was deflated.

 

[MG345]

TL;DR if people want to save some reading

I see where you're going with this... but I can't tell from the picture whether the football on the trophy was deflated.

Here's a higher resolution pic, to help:

http://imgur.com/YwZSX0y

 

[moleculo]

so here's the problem:

page 113 of the wells report:

According to Exponent, based on the most likely pressure and temperature values for the Patriots game balls on the day of the AFC Championship Game (i.e., a starting pressure of 12.5 psi, a starting temperature of between 67 and 71 degrees and a final temperature of 48 degrees),the Ideal Gas Law predicts that the Patriots balls should have measured between 11.52 and 11.32 psi at the end of the first half, just before they were brought back into the Officials Locker Room.

or, a pressure differential of 0.98 to 1.18.

The balls were measured at half time with two gauges - referred to as a "Logo" gauge and a "NonLogo" gauge. on page 116:

In addition, Exponent determined that when the Logo and Non-Logo Gauges measure an identical pressure, different readings are produced. According to Exponent, the Logo Gauge produced readings that were generally in the range of 0.3-0.4 psi higher than the NonLogo Gauge. However, for a given set of measurements, the differential between the gauges generally remained consistent when compared to a calibrated gauge. In other words, in the short term, both the Logo Gauge and Non-Logo Gauge read consistently, though differently from each other. Exponent‟s experimental results were aligned with the measurements recorded at halftime, which indicated a consistent gauge-to-gauge differential of 0.3-0.45 psi.

so lets look at the raw data (page 8):

ball blakeman piroleau diffpat1 11.5 11.8 -0.3pat2 10.85 11.2 -0.35pat3 11.15 11.5 -0.35pat4 10.7 11 -0.3pat5 11.1 11.45 -0.35pat6 11.6 11.95 -0.35pat7 11.85 12.3 -0.45pat8 11.1 11.55 -0.45pat9 10.95 11.35 -0.4pat10 10.5 10.9 -0.4pat11 10.9 11.35 -0.45 colt1 12.7 12.35 0.35colt2 12.75 12.3 0.45colt3 12.5 12.95 -0.45colt4 12.55 12.15 0.4you can see that gauge difference reflected in these measurements, and see that Prioleau must have used the Logo gauge. Note that it appears blakeman and Prioleau mixed up the gauges while measuring the Colts balls, as noted in the report: (pg 116)

Clete Blakeman most likely used the Non-Logo Gauge and Dyrol Prioleau most likely used the Logo Gauge to test the Patriots game balls at halftime, and that the game officials most likely switched gauges before measuring the Colts balls at halftime.

Here's my beef: which gauge was used for the pre-game inspection?

The Wells report concludes that "Anderson most likely used the NonLogo gauge to inspect the game balls prior to the game." I'm not clear on how that assumption can be made. Here's why it matters:

Assume the logo gauge was used pre-game to set the Pats balls to 12.5. if you were to check those same balls with the non-logo gauge, you could see measurements as low as 12.05 PSI, before you even take them outside. If you then apply the 1.18 PSI pressure drop, you would expect these perfectly legal, cold balls to have a pressure of no less than 10.87 when measured non-logo gauge.

looking at the data above, three out of the 11 measured balls fell below that threshhold, and two of those were really, really close to the edge. When you get down to it, there is only one ball out of spec here.

I'm curious to know why they assume Anderson used the non-logo gauge.

Exponent addressed all of this in their report, which was included as an appendix in the Wells report. The above exact concerns were experimented on directly, and their results are shown on page 55.

In summary,

Had the Logo Gauge been used pre-game, there is a small window in which the Game Dayresults from both teams are theoretically explainable. However, this would require the testing

of the Patriots footballs to have begun immediately upon entering the Officials Locker Room,

before the balls had time to warm up. Moreover, a majority of the Patriots balls would have

had to have been in a condition equivalent to what Exponent tested as “wet.” According to

Paul, Weiss, both of those conditions were most likely not present on Game Day. Therefore,

there appears to be no realistic window in which the Game Day results from both teams can

be explained.

Based on the above conclusions, although the relative “explainability” of the results from Game

Day are dependent on which gauge was used by Walt Anderson prior to the game, given the

most likely timing of events during halftime, the Patriots halftime measurements do not appear to be

explained by the environmental factors tested, regardless of the gauge used.

my scientific concerns are satisfied. I'm good with all of this. Gotta love it when you come up with a critique of a position paper and your exact critique was formally experimented on and discussed. That's why these guys get paid the big bucks.

 

[rockaction]

A year? In my dreams.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25177527/report-tom-brady-could-be-suspended-for-up-to-one-year

TL;DR if people want to save some reading

I see where you're going with this... but I can't tell from the picture whether the football on the trophy was deflated.

Here's a higher resolution pic, to help:

http://imgur.com/YwZSX0y

*

 

[Anarchy99]

A year? In my dreams.

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/25177527/report-tom-brady-could-be-suspended-for-up-to-one-year

TL;DR if people want to save some reading

I see where you're going with this... but I can't tell from the picture whether the football on the trophy was deflated.

Here's a higher resolution pic, to help:

http://imgur.com/YwZSX0y

*

He could have punched Gisele in the face and beaten his kids and gotten less than a year.

 

[ShamrockPride]

This is a joyous day. Patriots record this year and for the past few is forever tainted with a

*

Patriots*

Such cheaters, so much homer butthurt in this thread after so much laughter in January.

Probable cheaters. The Wells Reports concludes it was probable, not for sure.

If the league comes down with a fine/suspension for Lying Tom, that's as good as guilty for me and for a large majority of the country.

 

[moleculo]

...

Also air is expelled to test. It should be less with each test.

see page 35-36 of the Exponent report.

When the pressure of a football is measured using a needle style gauge, a small amount of air

from inside the football enters the needle and the valve stem. This air, along with any air that

escapes between the needle and the football gland as it is inserted or withdrawn is lost during

each pressure measurement that is made. As described below, if the number of needle insertions

for a given football is fewer than five, no discernible difference in the recorded pressure would be

observed.

Exponent performed a test to characterize this leakage in terms of pressure lost within the football

during the repeated insertion of a needle style gauge. Using the Non-Logo Gauge as the gauge/

needle combination of interest, an Exemplar Football was inflated to a starting reading of 13.00

psig on the gauge. The needle was then inserted and removed multiple times, with the observed

pressure reading noted on every fifth insertion cycle. This was repeated for a total of 50 cycles.

The results from this experiment are presented in Table 9. No damage to the sealing capability of

the gland was detected, even though the needle was not lubricated and the needle was inserted

quickly.

From the table above, it can be seen that taking repeated measurements with the Non-Logo Gauge

causes a football to lose approximately 0.01 psig per measurement (or one reading increment of

0.05 psig every five measurements).

Based on information provided by Paul, Weiss, we understand that each of the Patriots and Colts

footballs tested on game day was most likely tested three times by the game officials by the end

of halftime (once pre-game and twice at halftime). This number of tests would not have materially

impacted the pressures measured. Furthermore, if each ball tested at halftime was subjected to the

same number of tests, any impact on air pressure would be consistent. Thus, it does not appear

that the impact of multiple gauging actions is likely to have contributed to the difference in pressure

drop between the two teams.

 

[mbuehner]

What the league does from here is going to be really interesting to follow. Some of the talking heads that I have been listening to are calling for a cataclysmic penalty . . . like 8-16 game suspensions for Brady AND Belichick, huge fines, and loss of multiple first round picks. Other folks think it will be mostly fines and at most a couple of games for just Brady.

Just to recap, the NFL's game operations manual states: "Once the balls have left the locker room, no one, including players, equipment managers, ball boys, and coaches, is allowed to alter the footballs in any way. If any individual alters the footballs, or if a non-approved ball is used in the game, the person responsible and, if appropriate, the head coach or other club personnel will be subject to discipline, including but not limited to, a fine of $25,000."

Certainly they can levy more than a fine, but the way that is written it almost seems like they don't consider it a huge deal. That's part of the issue I have with the league rules in general. If they spelled out exactly what the penalties would be for specific infractions, then the league could avoid a lot of the issues on rulings and penalties.

This is just establishing a minimum. I don't know if I'd call it minor when they are saying you are going to get fined $25K as a minimum.

Totally true. I'm just pointing out that even at a minimum its shocking small, especially compared to other fines.

 

[mbuehner]

There are two factors here to consider with Brady, and they are being confused.

1) Character. He cheated, or at least encouraged cheating (if theres a difference). He lied about it.

2) The crime itself and its impact on the game.

People can argue about how much #1 affects Brady's legacy, and how much the deception etc should impact the punishment (if any). Thats totally reasonable and pretty much arbitrary. You could say he should be banned for life for being a bad representative of the game, or he should walk. EIther answer is defensible.

But point 2 is different. People are comparing slightly deflating a football to Lance Armstrong etc? Its simply apples and oranges. Ive argued Brady's actions are much closer to scuffing a baseball to put an extra quarter inch on your curve ball than to using PEDs that might be the only reason you can compete in your sport at all (much less excel). The NFL, traditionally, seems to view tampering with a football as about the same level of a crime, the fine in the rulebook is 25,000 (minimum grant you), only slightly more than spearing somebody. IE- If Brady had pulled a ball he brought from home out of his bag and used it, the NFL feels thats about a 25,000 crime (all things being equal).

This is just not THAT big a deal from the effect on the game perspective, and pretty much every QB interviewed has made that point. Brady, for instance, threw for 328 yards and 4 TDs in the SB against the best defense in the league with balls that you can be sure were absolutely 100% kosher. To argue 'well, we'll just never know if Brady was actually any good' is ludicrous.

If Brady is a scumbag, he's a scumbag for lying and covering up. Not for somehow 'fixing' that game by taking some major unfair advantage. At best its a marginal advantage and one that apparently is well known and common in the League and has been forever.

Nice post. Quick question - if the crime itself was really not so egregious (as you state), why would the equipment manager go to such great lengths to deflate the balls? Stealing the game balls and doctoring them 15 minutes before the start of the AFC Championship?Seems like the risk would not be worth the reward and makes your comparison to a pitcher scoffing a baseball less credible. That he was willing to risk getting caught at such a high profile event makes me think that the air pressure of the ball is far more important you are stating.

Pitchers go to great lengths to scuff baseballs as well. Albert Belle went climbing through ceiling ducts to retrieve a corked bat. Sure it was a pain in the ### for the equipment guy, but I dont know if id describe it as great lengths (at least of actual effort, as opposed to willingness to be shady). But for Brady its sounds a lot more like he told his guy what he wanted, and the guy put his head together with the locker-room attendant to make it happen. Kinda like the mafia, hey, I didnt murder anybody, i just mentioned that they ought to go away. That worked great until RICO, which is more or less what Brady is getting nailed on. It doesnt matter you cant prove definitively that he ordered it, its enough that he had to have known what was going on, and as 'the boss' (more or less) he's ultimately responsible.

The other thing is, even if Brady thought it was really important, didn't mean it was actually that important. Athletes are superstitious as hell, and if they believe something makes them play better, they believe it.

 

[Bigboy10182000]

This is a joyous day. Patriots record this year and for the past few is forever tainted with a

*

Patriots*

Such cheaters, so much homer butthurt in this thread after so much laughter in January.

Probable cheaters. The Wells Reports concludes it was probable, not for sure.

If the league comes down with a fine/suspension for Lying Tom, that's as good as guilty for me and for a large majority of the country.

I agree with this. Also, the letter from the Colts said something like "It's well known around the league"...Im wondering if maybe NE was issued a letter regarding this previously as well.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

Yes, it's just a coincidence that the Colts wrote this prior to the game:

"As far as the gameballs are concerned it is well known around the league that after the Patriots gameballs are checked by the officials and brought out for game usage the ballboys for the patriots will let out some air with a ball needle because their quarterback likes a smaller football so he can grip it better, it would be great if someone would be able to check the air in the game balls as the game goes on so that they don‟t get an illegal advantage," Sullivan said, according to Wells' report.

 

[Anarchy99]

If the league really does slam Brady and suspends him for a huge chunk of (or the entire) season, they certainly would not have done NE any favors. Not that there were any great QB options available, but letting the report and penalty slide all the way past free agency and the draft would have eliminated the Pats opportunity to add a QB or build up any depth at the position.

 

[Road Warriors]

Perhaps what Brady should have said Super Bowl week:

"I like the balls soft and those are the ones I pick during the selection process. The equipment guys know this; as a matter of fact I made sure they knew that and, as you'd expect, they try their hardest to make me happy. But we never set out to break the rules. That being said, there's a chance that in the efforts to make sure the balls were soft somebody crossed a line and set the balls below the limits. If that's the case, even though I dont get into the detail of any of this, the fact that I made it known that I like the balls softer was the reason all of this happened and so I feel I should take complete responsibility for whatever happened and whatever the outcome is.

As much as it sounds like Im pointing fingers, I'd be remiss if I didnt say that this sort of directive is common in the league among quarterbacks and I wouldnt be surprised if the legal limits were tested from time to time. That being said, my responsibility to the game should be to ensure, to the furthest extent I can, that the balls I use are legal and I clearly need to do a better job at that. And, along with accepting whatever punishment may or may not come my way if a rule was broken, I will change the internal procedures from this day forward. Thank you."

Seriously, that would have been one hell of a good response.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

I believe the Pats definitely let the air out of the footballs. That said, it really is strange that the NFL officials knew to look out for this ahead of time yet lost the footballs only to see them show up with McNally yet decide to use them even though they have 12 backup balls ready to go? They also don't record the PSI measurements ahead of time even with knowledge this could be an issue? The Wells report definitely whitewashed all of the mistakes NFL officials made throughout this fiasco. Granted, I understand the sentiment of thinking all of that is secondary to the Pats letting the air out of the balls after inspection. I'm very interested to see what type of punishment is brought against the Pats and hopefully that is coming in a matter of days as opposed to weeks.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

Patriots forced to sell team and move to L.A. ...

You mean move to St Louis like they were going to do until Kraft's original shenanigans?

It was Hartford not St. Louis.

You really want me to post something serious in this thread?

St Louis!

 

[GoBirds]

So as predicted there is no damning evidence of any wrong doing by Brady or the Pats. That's all I really care about. "More likely than not to have done something" means nothing to me. We have the Pats fans who think it's a joke and the haters who had the noose hanging going in. Each side is going to believe what they want. It's like a bunch of liberals and conservatives arguing, there will be no common ground. It's over as far as I'm concerned. Carry on.

Did we already get a winner for the delusional fan post?

It's a contender.

I reread D1 and espnespn stands out.

Was wondering where some of the blowhards from earlier in the thread have been. Still a couple hiding. They have to come in and troll as there is no way to backtrack some of the crazy bs earlier in this thread. Makes for great entertainment.

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

I'd be pissed if I were the Ravens. One dubious tactic was banned in the off-season by the NFL, and the Patriots were found to have been cheating all the way back to October. This should be a big deal for competitive balance, and the suspension should be harsh.

Whether it will be is another issue.

There is no penalty that the NFL can offer that makes up for the simple fact that Ravens fans are forced to be on the same side as Steelers fans. I'm sure that is true for many other rivalries. Unforgivable!

On the plus side, the Patriots cheating scandals seem to unite the most disparate of people. I'd bet a lot of America's divisions would be solved if we had a good Pats scandal every year.

Have there been very many years without a Patriots scandal?

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

“Maybe those guys gotta study the rule book and figure it out. We obviously knew what we were doing and we made some pretty important plays. It was a real good weapon for us. Maybe we’ll have something in store next week."

Should have just quit while you were ahead.

 

[shader]

Tom Brady is the Lance Armstrong of the NFL.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Tom Brady is the Lance Armstrong of the NFL.

I would think saying he is the Jerry Rice of QBs is a better comparison.

 

[johnnycakes]

Is that $25,000 per ball??

 

[JIslander]

“Maybe those guys gotta study the rule book and figure it out. We obviously knew what we were doing and we made some pretty important plays. It was a real good weapon for us. Maybe we’ll have something in store next week."

Should have just quit while you were ahead.

Wasn't that in reference to the now illegal ineligible/eligible receiver mumbo jumbo game planning BB used vs. Ravens?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

Yes, it's just a coincidence that the Colts wrote this prior to the game:

"As far as the gameballs are concerned it is well known around the league that after the Patriots gameballs are checked by the officials and brought out for game usage the ballboys for the patriots will let out some air with a ball needle because their quarterback likes a smaller football so he can grip it better, it would be great if someone would be able to check the air in the game balls as the game goes on so that they don‟t get an illegal advantage," Sullivan said, according to Wells' report.

so, let's see if I can understand this troll mentality

brady's been doing this forever

it gives him a tremendous advantage

the entire league is aware of this illegal advantage that he's been using to beat them with

nobody's said a word about until just now

shark pool be sharkin'

 

[Run It Up]

We can all be sure of one thing. No one will be satisfied with Goodell's disciplinary action.

We can all be sure of this too; Gronk has a very "unique" take on this situation:http://www.sbnation.com/lookit/2015/5/6/8563257/rob-gronkowski-deflategate-deez-nuts-video

Hearing him talk about SpongeBob and the kids makes me smile. Such a good guy.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

so here's the problem:

page 113 of the wells report:

According to Exponent, based on the most likely pressure and temperature values for the Patriots game balls on the day of the AFC Championship Game (i.e., a starting pressure of 12.5 psi, a starting temperature of between 67 and 71 degrees and a final temperature of 48 degrees),the Ideal Gas Law predicts that the Patriots balls should have measured between 11.52 and 11.32 psi at the end of the first half, just before they were brought back into the Officials Locker Room.

or, a pressure differential of 0.98 to 1.18.

The balls were measured at half time with two gauges - referred to as a "Logo" gauge and a "NonLogo" gauge. on page 116:

In addition, Exponent determined that when the Logo and Non-Logo Gauges measure an identical pressure, different readings are produced. According to Exponent, the Logo Gauge produced readings that were generally in the range of 0.3-0.4 psi higher than the NonLogo Gauge. However, for a given set of measurements, the differential between the gauges generally remained consistent when compared to a calibrated gauge. In other words, in the short term, both the Logo Gauge and Non-Logo Gauge read consistently, though differently from each other. Exponent‟s experimental results were aligned with the measurements recorded at halftime, which indicated a consistent gauge-to-gauge differential of 0.3-0.45 psi.

so lets look at the raw data (page 8):

ball blakeman piroleau diffpat1 11.5 11.8 -0.3pat2 10.85 11.2 -0.35pat3 11.15 11.5 -0.35pat4 10.7 11 -0.3pat5 11.1 11.45 -0.35pat6 11.6 11.95 -0.35pat7 11.85 12.3 -0.45pat8 11.1 11.55 -0.45pat9 10.95 11.35 -0.4pat10 10.5 10.9 -0.4pat11 10.9 11.35 -0.45 colt1 12.7 12.35 0.35colt2 12.75 12.3 0.45colt3 12.5 12.95 -0.45colt4 12.55 12.15 0.4you can see that gauge difference reflected in these measurements, and see that Prioleau must have used the Logo gauge. Note that it appears blakeman and Prioleau mixed up the gauges while measuring the Colts balls, as noted in the report: (pg 116)

Clete Blakeman most likely used the Non-Logo Gauge and Dyrol Prioleau most likely used the Logo Gauge to test the Patriots game balls at halftime, and that the game officials most likely switched gauges before measuring the Colts balls at halftime.

Here's my beef: which gauge was used for the pre-game inspection?

The Wells report concludes that "Anderson most likely used the NonLogo gauge to inspect the game balls prior to the game." I'm not clear on how that assumption can be made. Here's why it matters:

Assume the logo gauge was used pre-game to set the Pats balls to 12.5. if you were to check those same balls with the non-logo gauge, you could see measurements as low as 12.05 PSI, before you even take them outside. If you then apply the 1.18 PSI pressure drop, you would expect these perfectly legal, cold balls to have a pressure of no less than 10.87 when measured non-logo gauge.

looking at the data above, three out of the 11 measured balls fell below that threshhold, and two of those were really, really close to the edge. When you get down to it, there is only one ball out of spec here.

I'm curious to know why they assume Anderson used the non-logo gauge.

Exponent addressed all of this in their report, which was included as an appendix in the Wells report. The above exact concerns were experimented on directly, and their results are shown on page 55.

In summary,

Had the Logo Gauge been used pre-game, there is a small window in which the Game Dayresults from both teams are theoretically explainable. However, this would require the testing

of the Patriots footballs to have begun immediately upon entering the Officials Locker Room,

before the balls had time to warm up. Moreover, a majority of the Patriots balls would have

had to have been in a condition equivalent to what Exponent tested as “wet.” According to

Paul, Weiss, both of those conditions were most likely not present on Game Day. Therefore,

there appears to be no realistic window in which the Game Day results from both teams can

be explained.

Based on the above conclusions, although the relative “explainability” of the results from Game

Day are dependent on which gauge was used by Walt Anderson prior to the game, given the

most likely timing of events during halftime, the Patriots halftime measurements do not appear to be

explained by the environmental factors tested, regardless of the gauge used.

my scientific concerns are satisfied. I'm good with all of this. Gotta love it when you come up with a critique of a position paper and your exact critique was formally experimented on and discussed. That's why these guys get paid the big bucks.

actually, this was probably a smaller job.

I'd imagine they got paid the big bucks by big tobacco to show us second hand smoke is harmless.

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

So...

Bump Garoppolo?

I wonder what excuse the steelers will come up with if he ends up beating their asses.

 

[moleculo]

actually, this was probably a smaller job.

I'd imagine they got paid the big bucks by big tobacco to show us second hand smoke is harmless.

That's what you guys are going with? I mean, I knew you would attack the source without considering the merits of the report, but I figured you would focus on them having an office in NYC and are therefore salty Jet or Giant fans.

 

[metoo]

Will Brady address this issue and will he be dumb enough to deny everything?

 

[Kool-Aid Larry]

actually, this was probably a smaller job.

I'd imagine they got paid the big bucks by big tobacco to show us second hand smoke is harmless.

That's what you guys are going with? I mean, I knew you would attack the source without considering the merits of the report, but I figured you would focus on them having an office in NYC and are therefore salty Jet or Giant fans.

I don't know who these 'you guys' are supposed to be --- I'm one person, and I referenced the los angeles times.

but I guess there are pats fans all over the world, considering how awesome they are.

According to the Los Angeles Times, "Exponent's research has come under fire from critics, including engineers, attorneys and academics who say the company tends to deliver to clients the reports they need to mount a public defense."

In 2009, the Amazon Defense Coalition criticized an Exponent study commissioned by the energy company Chevron that dumping oil waste didn't cause cancer because Chevron's largest shareholder was a director on Exponent's board. Exponent "doubted" the director knew of the study. Controversially, Exponent research argued that secondhand smoke does not cause cancer. The firm was also criticized for assisting industry efforts to reduce chromium regulation.

....

"The first thing you know is that when Exponent is brought in to help a company, that company is in big trouble,"

<--- edit

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

Will Brady address this issue and will he be dumb enough to deny everything?

I doubt he makes a comment prior to the league handing down punishment. He definitely addresses the issue after and what he comments publicly will very much depend on what the league decides.

 

[MG345]

actually, this was probably a smaller job.

I'd imagine they got paid the big bucks by big tobacco to show us second hand smoke is harmless.

That's what you guys are going with? I mean, I knew you would attack the source without considering the merits of the report, but I figured you would focus on them having an office in NYC and are therefore salty Jet or Giant fans.

I don't know who these 'you guys' are supposed to be --- I'm one person, and I referenced the los angeles times.

but I guess there are pats fans all over the world, considering how awesome they are.

According to the Los Angeles Times, "Exponent's research has come under fire from critics, including engineers, attorneys and academics who say the company tends to deliver to clients the reports they need to mount a public defense."

In 2009, the Amazon Defense Coalition criticized an Exponent study commissioned by the energy company Chevron that dumping oil waste didn't cause cancer because Chevron's largest shareholder was a director on Exponent's board. Exponent "doubted" the director knew of the study. Controversially, Exponent research argued that secondhand smoke does not cause cancer. The firm was also criticized for assisting industry efforts to reduce chromium regulation.

....

"The first thing you know is that when Exponent is brought in to help a company, that company is in big trouble,"

<--- edit

Does any of this matter, once the text messages come into play?

 

[rjv]

Seems a little suspicious that this came right after the draft.

 

[cstu]

actually, this was probably a smaller job.

I'd imagine they got paid the big bucks by big tobacco to show us second hand smoke is harmless.

That's what you guys are going with? I mean, I knew you would attack the source without considering the merits of the report, but I figured you would focus on them having an office in NYC and are therefore salty Jet or Giant fans.

I don't know who these 'you guys' are supposed to be --- I'm one person, and I referenced the los angeles times.

but I guess there are pats fans all over the world, considering how awesome they are.

According to the Los Angeles Times, "Exponent's research has come under fire from critics, including engineers, attorneys and academics who say the company tends to deliver to clients the reports they need to mount a public defense."

In 2009, the Amazon Defense Coalition criticized an Exponent study commissioned by the energy company Chevron that dumping oil waste didn't cause cancer because Chevron's largest shareholder was a director on Exponent's board. Exponent "doubted" the director knew of the study. Controversially, Exponent research argued that secondhand smoke does not cause cancer. The firm was also criticized for assisting industry efforts to reduce chromium regulation.

....

"The first thing you know is that when Exponent is brought in to help a company, that company is in big trouble,"

Second hand smoke causes a lot of things but it hasn't been found to have a large effect on cancer:

A large prospective cohort study of more than 76,000 women confirmed a strong association between cigarette smoking and lung cancer but found no link between the disease and secondhand smoke.

“Passive smoking has many downstream health effects—asthma, upper respiratory infections, other pulmonary diseases, cardiovascular disease—but only borderline increased risk of lung cancer,” said Patel. “The strongest reason to avoid passive cigarette smoke is to change societal behavior: to not live in a society where smoking is a norm.

“It’s very reassuring that passive smoke in the childhood home doesn’t increase the risk of lung cancer [in this study],” said Patel. “But it doesn’t decrease the need for us to have strong antismoking measures. There are very few never-smokers in smoking families.”

ETA:

 

[Bottomfeeder Sports]

“Maybe those guys gotta study the rule book and figure it out. We obviously knew what we were doing and we made some pretty important plays. It was a real good weapon for us. Maybe we’ll have something in store next week."

Should have just quit while you were ahead.

Wasn't that in reference to the now illegal ineligible/eligible receiver mumbo jumbo game planning BB used vs. Ravens?

Yep. That was Brady's quote in response for previous game. It just seems that quote can be sliced up so many fun ways now.