Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)
- Thread starter HobbesAB
- Start date
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Either they cheated or they didn't. This is not a complicated equation.
If people want to suggest that the act of breaking the rules did not impact the outcome of the game, fine. And if people want to suggest that the Wells report did not show convincing and compelling evidence as to Brady's wrong doing, I can even buy some of that argument. For example, I still haven't gotten through the entire report, but short of video of Brady deflating the footballs himself or someone else saying "Brady told me to deflate the footballs post-inspection to this level and here's how we did it," I suppose the diehard fans could make a case that they didn't prove Brady's involvement. But to me it seems pretty clear the Patriots did something unnatural to the footballs and that it wasn't just that one game.
Personally, since I have a kid in the house that plays football, we took several footballs (same size, same brand, albeit not out of the box). I think we had 6 or 7 and inflated 5 of them to the low end of the range and 2 of them to a PSI below the range. We asked several people to pick out the two that were underinflated and no one could. I got one of them but not the other. It's not that big a difference, especially when it is not a comparison of BALL A vs. BALL B.
I have my doubt about just how much of an advantage it is having the footballs under the recommended inflation level as set forth by the manufacturer (which is really all the 12.5 - 13.5 PSI range is). I guess someone better tell Aaron Rodgers that he really is giving his opponents a sizeable advantage by trying to have his footballs overinflated. I would argue the inflation range is too restrictive (and probably not an advantage). Even if a rule may be stupid, doesn't change the fact that if someone breaks the rules they still broke the rules.
Still doesn't change that the Patriots broke the rules, but I am still debating how much an advantage it is to have the ball at 11.5 PSI. Sure, talking heads have suggested it is, but I suspect that is a guess on their part.
massraider
Footballguy
Why were these two guys McNally and Jastremski fired?
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
Oops, I misspoke. The ball wasn't described by the Colts as "squishy". They described it as "spongy or soft."
They were suspended, correct? The question still stands. Why did the Pats take this action?
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
I would assume because they didn't do a good enough job cleaning out their phones before handing them over to Wells
massraider
Footballguy
sho nuff
Footballguy
You're not following.
If the NFL had decided to launch a sting,
a) you're wrong that they'd wait for the Colts to complain -- they'd initiate "the sting" all on their own.
b) (and this is the big one), if they were conducting "the sting", then they would have devised an action plan that would have involved re-inspecting the balls at various points during the game. How else would "the sting" catch the Pats' misconduct without re-testing the balls?!?!
But, they had no such action plan to re-test the balls. They re-inspected the balls at halftime only because they were alerted to do so by the Colts, after they (the Colts) came into possession of a Pats ball after their guy intercepted a pass.
Carter_Can_Fly
Footballguy
Brady and company putting together a big defence lawyer team to try and save some face and squirm their way out of this. Ughhh the Pats are going to make this thing drag on much longer than it needs to.
I wish Brady would just man up and take responsibility so we can all move on. This is shaping up to be Lance Armstrong all over again. You get caught and still deny, and lie and in the end had you just come clean at the start it would have been a whole lot better.
I wish Brady would just man up and take responsibility so we can all move on. This is shaping up to be Lance Armstrong all over again. You get caught and still deny, and lie and in the end had you just come clean at the start it would have been a whole lot better.
skinsrule05
Footballguy
This is the reason that I don't believe it was just Brady and the trainers. The impact helped the whole team. To do that for years you would think others knew. Is Belicheck really looking at the stats each year saying, "oh, we led the league w/ the least fumbles again, must be my coaching"
massraider
Footballguy
No man, like, the Patriots really don't like fumbling.
They totally coach the players not to fumble.
They REALLY don't like it
They totally coach the players not to fumble.
They REALLY don't like it
Mookie
Footballguy
It was a big point of emphasis. When somebody fumbled, Belichick would get REALLY mad.
Run It Up
Footballguy
I'd rather they dragged out. Dragging the shield through the mud along the way.
I hope Goodell decides to hear the appeal himself to attempt to save face but in reality sealing his fate and losing his job.
#### em.
Run It Up
Footballguy
Last edited by a moderator:
massraider
Footballguy
Yeah, me too.
The handling of the Ray Rice matter won't be the nail in the coffin. It'll be the excessive punishment for the cheater.
That he wasn't involved in. At all.
He's going down, man!
The handling of the Ray Rice matter won't be the nail in the coffin. It'll be the excessive punishment for the cheater.
That he wasn't involved in. At all.
He's going down, man!
12punch
Footballguy
This is all crazy talk.Okay---have TB get with us and let us know exactly what games he was able to get the balls deflated, and which ones he wasn't & I'll crunch the numbers.
Obviously, we don't know exactly when this started or which specific games were played with balls that were under the legal limit vs at the low end of the legal limit. That being said, Brady & other QBs were able to get the rule changed before the 2006 season allowing home teams to provide their own footballs.
Prior to the 2006 season, Brady was 1574/2537 (62%), for 17990 (7.1 YPA), 123 TD, 66 INT
From 2006 on, Brady was 2976/4621 (64%), for 35231 (7.6 YPA), 269 TD, 77 INT
So, higher completion %, higher YPA, better TD rate, lower INT rate. There appears to be a link between an improvement in his play and the home team being allowed to provide their own game balls. However, that's definitely not conclusive & his growth as an NFL QB could account for some/all of those improvements, as could his growing knowledge/expertise of the NE offense. So, without specific information about which games involved the use of under-inflated balls, you can't really make the comparison you are asking for. Then again, I think you knew that and were just trying to deflect attention away from the real issues which is that Brady/NE cheated, then lied, tried to cover it up, and refused to cooperate with the NFL investigation.Yes, TB's numbers went up . . . as did almost every QB in the league with the league embarking on a greater emphasis on passing production with defenses getting called for more and more fouls.Okay---have TB get with us and let us know exactly what games he was able to get the balls deflated, and which ones he wasn't & I'll crunch the numbers.
Obviously, we don't know exactly when this started or which specific games were played with balls that were under the legal limit vs at the low end of the legal limit. That being said, Brady & other QBs were able to get the rule changed before the 2006 season allowing home teams to provide their own footballs.
Prior to the 2006 season, Brady was 1574/2537 (62%), for 17990 (7.1 YPA), 123 TD, 66 INT
From 2006 on, Brady was 2976/4621 (64%), for 35231 (7.6 YPA), 269 TD, 77 INT
So, higher completion %, higher YPA, better TD rate, lower INT rate. There appears to be a link between an improvement in his play and the home team being allowed to provide their own game balls. However, that's definitely not conclusive & his growth as an NFL QB could account for some/all of those improvements, as could his growing knowledge/expertise of the NE offense. So, without specific information about which games involved the use of under-inflated balls, you can't really make the comparison you are asking for. Then again, I think you knew that and were just trying to deflect attention away from the real issues which is that Brady/NE cheated, then lied, tried to cover it up, and refused to cooperate with the NFL investigation.
From 2001-2005, the league average (by franchise) was:
6.35 YPA, 59.5% completion%, 4.06 TD%, 3.19 INT%, 78.2 passer rating
From 2006-2014, the league average (by franchise) was:
6.6 YPA, 61% completion%, 4.24 TD%, 2.88 INT%, 82.5 passer rating
Also, as far as NE goes, they completely reshaped their team and offensive philosophy. They morphed from a strong defense, ball control, run heavy team with not a lot invested in receiving targets to a pass first team, mediocre defense, a lot more invested in receiving talent, and less investment in the running game (they didn't have a single player with 100 carries last year).
In the second data set, there were guys like Moss, Welker, and Gronk. The average fan will have little recollection of who the Patriots threw out there to catch the ball in 2001-2005.
Obvious conclusion : entire league has progressively been deflating balls more and more.
Randy moss 20 TD, reche caldwell 3 TD
Conclusion: fat guy in closet sucking a half pound of air out of 50 balls
QEDuh
Edit: entire league except jets and chicago
Last edited by a moderator:
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Interesting discussion I heard this morning (I think it was on the radio, I was only half awake . . . which admittedly may be 50% more than normal). One theory was that Kraft is going to go nuclear over this and if things don't get overturned he will take steps to have Goodell removed as commissioner. That would make for an interesting showdown. I am not sure how the commissioner is viewed by the 31 other owners and if Kraft has the clout to get Goodell ousted.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Not sure why Kraft is so pissed at Goodell. You'd think he'd be pissed at Brady for cheating, lying about it, and making him look like a fool in public.
12punch
Footballguy
Ref uses 2 separate balls for the game in polar opposite conditions, when they normally share a ball.
Feeley easily spots this from the sideline with his opera glasses, while ref handling the ball is oblivious.
Sounds about on par with the rest of this thread.
Wonder if feeley's a shark pool regular
Run It Up
Footballguy
I think it would more likely be that Kraft doesn't support the commissioner anymore and the rest of the owners fall in line.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
That would go a long way toward disabusing people of the notion that Kraft expects special treatment for his team.
Last edited by a moderator:
12punch
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
We are just going to go in circles again, but here goes.
In the past, for potential violations teams were told to stop what they were doing or league wide memos/letters were sent out telling people that from that point forward ISSUE X would no longer be tolerated and there would be penalties for repeat abusers. No such notice was given this time around. In the past, for equipment violations throughout the history of the league, no investigations were launched, no players were ever suspended, and no draft picks were ever docked. On several occasions, the league looked the other way, did not punish teams, or handed out small fines.
In the Wells report itself, it found that whatever happened was between the two locker room attendants and Brady. Yet the team was fined and picks were taken away. In other sports, when a pitcher is caught tampering with the baseball or a player is caught with a corked bat, does the team get fined and lose draft picks?
With regard to Deflategate, the entire process has been conducted in an entirely different direction than in the past. Kraft (and many others) feel the penalties handed out are Draconian and hugely unfair based on the (in their minds) misdemeanor of a crime committed. Kraft still feels the Wells report didn't prove a thing.
This entire fiasco could have been avoided (from the Pats perspective) without dragging the team's reputation in the muck by not having a Spanish Inquisition and could have been handled behind closed doors and not in the public. (The concept of not trying to circumvent the rules is apparently a foreign concept to the business model in NE.)
I am not specifically making all these claims, but that is the way the team seems to feel.
David Dodds
Administrator
He is mad at Goodell, because he basically suggested to the other owners that he be the commish and lobbied hard for his giant raise. So in his eyes, he is suppose to look away when his team cheats.
massraider
Footballguy
I wonder if it's possible that the owners applaud the league office for showing no favoritism to his former golfing buddy.
12punch
Footballguy
12punch
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Yes, but many people feel the list of poor RG decisions is a lot longer the list of good RG decisions.
David Dodds
Administrator
Let's put this into perspective.
1. The Patriots cheated in a playoff game. Let's suppose for a minute that the score was close at the end. What if NE had won this game by 3 instead of the blowout? The punishment needs to fit the crime and not the outcome. Go rob a bank with a handgun and see if you get left off easy because the Armored truck just left with all the money.
2. For Indianapolis to WARN the league office before the start of the game about said balls and for them to STILL be tampered with indicates that this ball tampering was likely happening for a long time. Multiple teams all felt this was happening in Patriot games.
3. Once the ball boys texts were uncovered, Brady refused to hand over his texts (to confirm) and the key ball boy was not allowed to talk to the Wells investigation again. Although the Patriots leaked this as he has been questioned 4 times already, that was not true. Wells team had talked to him once only. So the Wells team did not get to ask, why are you called the Deflator, etc?
4. Prior to this cheating, Goodell was a close friend of Bob Kraft. Kraft had a say in him becoming the commissioner and also was a key force to getting him a raise. So what was Goodell's motivation again in coming down hard on the Patriots? The fact is he did not come hard especially if he thinks this happened for more than a game.
Let's ask the hard questions:
- How long has this been going on?
- Why does the coach get a pass when Sean Payton got a year for not knowing?
The Patriots were caught cheating again. They fired the two ball boys. They got right on that. Let's make sure we fire the scapegoats as fast as possible.
Brady can hire the best legal team in the world. It won't change the fact of what the rest of the world thinks about him and the Patriots. I am sure his games will get reduced, because the NFL would like a Brady-led Patriots playing Dallas and would like him to be sharp by allowing him to practice in week 4.
1. The Patriots cheated in a playoff game. Let's suppose for a minute that the score was close at the end. What if NE had won this game by 3 instead of the blowout? The punishment needs to fit the crime and not the outcome. Go rob a bank with a handgun and see if you get left off easy because the Armored truck just left with all the money.
2. For Indianapolis to WARN the league office before the start of the game about said balls and for them to STILL be tampered with indicates that this ball tampering was likely happening for a long time. Multiple teams all felt this was happening in Patriot games.
3. Once the ball boys texts were uncovered, Brady refused to hand over his texts (to confirm) and the key ball boy was not allowed to talk to the Wells investigation again. Although the Patriots leaked this as he has been questioned 4 times already, that was not true. Wells team had talked to him once only. So the Wells team did not get to ask, why are you called the Deflator, etc?
4. Prior to this cheating, Goodell was a close friend of Bob Kraft. Kraft had a say in him becoming the commissioner and also was a key force to getting him a raise. So what was Goodell's motivation again in coming down hard on the Patriots? The fact is he did not come hard especially if he thinks this happened for more than a game.
Let's ask the hard questions:
- How long has this been going on?
- Why does the coach get a pass when Sean Payton got a year for not knowing?
The Patriots were caught cheating again. They fired the two ball boys. They got right on that. Let's make sure we fire the scapegoats as fast as possible.
Brady can hire the best legal team in the world. It won't change the fact of what the rest of the world thinks about him and the Patriots. I am sure his games will get reduced, because the NFL would like a Brady-led Patriots playing Dallas and would like him to be sharp by allowing him to practice in week 4.
JohnnyU
Footballguy
Run It Up
Footballguy
According to the Colts equipment guy, and literally the only person who is on record saying this.
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
The NFL is a strange business model to be sure. We have 32 partners who work cooperatively to market a product and to increase group profits, while simultaneously trying to reap individual awards by beating out the other partners. In pretty much every business model I am aware of, which admittedly may be a small number, partners have fiduciary obligations to each other and have to deal with each other in good faith.
In the present instance I accept that Kraft was not involved and had no knowledge of the matter. The cheating did not involve Kraft, but rather a key employee hired and supervised by Kraft's part of the partnership. Still, this key employee, under Kraft's line of supervision, cheated the other business partners. The effect on the bottom line for the other partners cannot ever be accurately accessed, lost profit (or lost opportunity) to them is likely negligible, but unknowable.
Taken out of the NFL and put into other business models how would this be viewed? Would the key employee be retained, disciplined, have his supervision overseen and monitored if he remained? And what of the partner who benefitted, or may have benefitted, and whose benefit necessarily came at the expense of his other partners, how would he be handled?
These owners all love the NFL, the excitement, the prestige, the glamour, but they mostly seem to come from a business background. Do they view this from a business perspective, or is this model so unique that they put their ownership in a different intellectual box from their other business experience?
What if this was the second time a key employee under the direct supervision of a partner had essentially done the same thing earlier, say seven years ago?
In the present instance I accept that Kraft was not involved and had no knowledge of the matter. The cheating did not involve Kraft, but rather a key employee hired and supervised by Kraft's part of the partnership. Still, this key employee, under Kraft's line of supervision, cheated the other business partners. The effect on the bottom line for the other partners cannot ever be accurately accessed, lost profit (or lost opportunity) to them is likely negligible, but unknowable.
Taken out of the NFL and put into other business models how would this be viewed? Would the key employee be retained, disciplined, have his supervision overseen and monitored if he remained? And what of the partner who benefitted, or may have benefitted, and whose benefit necessarily came at the expense of his other partners, how would he be handled?
These owners all love the NFL, the excitement, the prestige, the glamour, but they mostly seem to come from a business background. Do they view this from a business perspective, or is this model so unique that they put their ownership in a different intellectual box from their other business experience?
What if this was the second time a key employee under the direct supervision of a partner had essentially done the same thing earlier, say seven years ago?
Last edited by a moderator:
GregR
Footballguy
I think an element missing in a lot of those other situations has to do with the violation being something immediately following such a specific certification process.
Take Spygate as a contrast. The Pats broke a rule about where they could have cameras, and got punished.
Now imagine if in addition to that rule, the league had a certification process similar to the refs certifying the game balls. Say, an official that it is required that he visit the location of each team camera and certify that it is in a legal location. And after that certification took place, then the team had moved the camera to the illegal locations actually used in Spygate.
I think the league would have come down even harder in such a case. When something is made so abundantly clear you're not supposed to do it, and you still do it, I'd expect the reaction to be even more harsh. I think that contributes even though it isn't something overtly discussed.
Last edited by a moderator:
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
The Patriots got their "cut it out or else" warning from the league office in 2004 -- specifically relating to game ball shenanigans.
This was their proverbial next time.
BustedKnuckles
Footballguy
The text messages from back in the jets game when the balls were 16 psi ....im just guessing here but if Brady told those guys to deflate them to normal weight wouldnt that make sense where that dude got the name the deflator ? Seems as likely as anything else being talked about
Dr. Octopus
Footballguy
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I guess that is open to interpretation. IIRC, they were told to stop using non-game balls / practice balls. I would have to see the specific communication that was sent to them, but I am pretty sure it did not address the inflation level of the footballs. The Patriots counterpoint to that would be that they never used a practice ball again and they complied with the league's directive.
Last edited by a moderator:
David Dodds
Administrator
I am sure the Wells report wanted to ask those kinds of questions as well, but McNally was not available. They talked to him, got his team phone, and then were denied access to him. Definitely actions by a completely innocent team.
GregR
Footballguy
The Deflator nickname text was May 9. The Jets game text was October 16.
So no, not possible.
12punch
Footballguy
David Dodds
Administrator
Once they deflated the ball post-inspection, it was no longer a certified league ball.
massraider
Footballguy
"We found a different way to cheat, so really, it's like the first time all over again."
12punch
Footballguy
Ditkaless Wonders
Footballguy
If you were the commish and an owner in a fantasy football league and you had one owner who was constantly trying to be the league lawyer, scouring the rules for advantage, interpreting spaces between the rules not as something to be interpreted in good faith in furtherance of the fair competition of proving your football acumen, but instead turning the league into a constant legal battleground, would you tolerate him? Did you sign up to play football, or to reign in one person who is deliberately looking to intentionally misunderstand matters and litigate things? I mean you didn't sign up for a fantasy litigation and rules drafting league.
As for me, I'd boot the pain in the ### out of the league.
As for me, I'd boot the pain in the ### out of the league.
Last edited by a moderator:
