Patriots being investigated after Colts game (6 Viewers)

[mr roboto]

Boston must be the biggest echo chamber in the country.

Oh absolutely. Worse than NYC or CHI IMO.

 

[Flying Elvis]

It's odd to me that so many people don't seem willing to admit that Brady was absolutely right to not turn over his phone.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

It's odd to me that so many people don't seem willing to admit that Brady was absolutely right to not turn over his phone.

Good thing Wells didn't ask him to do so.

 

[Anarchy99]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2463486-did-deflated-footballs-really-give-the-patriots-a-fumble-advantage

"Sacks and scrambles accounted for 164 of the 523 offensive fumbles in the NFL last season. On a per-play basis, a sack is far more likely to result in a fumble than any other offensive play. A team that avoids sacks is likely to have a low fumble rate. As the table shows, the Patriots have been one of the league's best teams at avoiding sacks for the past three seasons."

"The data suggests that the Patriots are not necessarily a team that rarely fumbles. They are a team that rarely allows sacks, which therefore depresses their fumble rates."

Might have more sacks if he didnt have such a good grip on the ball.

What does his grip have to do with sacks?

When a defender runs past the QB and chops at him, a fumble caused is registered as a sack.

Are you asserting that a QB holding a football inflated with a pound less air pressure will be more likely to hold onto the ball when a 300 lb D-lineman karate chops his arm from the blind side before the QB crumbles to the ground?

Yes. Obviously the less inflated it is the better grip you have. There is no debate on that.

I guess. I personally don't think in the situation you cited that the inflation of the football would have any bearing on a QB holding onto the ball when a giant lineman clubs the ball or the QBs arm when the QB doesn't even know he is coming. IMO, that would be a fumble 100 times out of 100 either way.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2463486-did-deflated-footballs-really-give-the-patriots-a-fumble-advantage

"Sacks and scrambles accounted for 164 of the 523 offensive fumbles in the NFL last season. On a per-play basis, a sack is far more likely to result in a fumble than any other offensive play. A team that avoids sacks is likely to have a low fumble rate. As the table shows, the Patriots have been one of the league's best teams at avoiding sacks for the past three seasons."

"The data suggests that the Patriots are not necessarily a team that rarely fumbles. They are a team that rarely allows sacks, which therefore depresses their fumble rates."

Might have more sacks if he didnt have such a good grip on the ball.

What does his grip have to do with sacks?

When a defender runs past the QB and chops at him, a fumble caused is registered as a sack.

Are you asserting that a QB holding a football inflated with a pound less air pressure will be more likely to hold onto the ball when a 300 lb D-lineman karate chops his arm from the blind side before the QB crumbles to the ground?

Yes. Obviously the less inflated it is the better grip you have. There is no debate on that.

I guess. I personally don't think in the situation you cited that the inflation of the football would have any bearing on a QB holding onto the ball when a giant lineman clubs the ball or the QBs arm when the QB doesn't even know he is coming. IMO, that would be a fumble 100 times out of 100 either way.

Oh yeah. Now think of it being wet, slick or cold. Ore your hands being wet, slick or cold. Hell yeah it helps.

 

[BroadwayG]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2463486-did-deflated-footballs-really-give-the-patriots-a-fumble-advantage

"Sacks and scrambles accounted for 164 of the 523 offensive fumbles in the NFL last season. On a per-play basis, a sack is far more likely to result in a fumble than any other offensive play. A team that avoids sacks is likely to have a low fumble rate. As the table shows, the Patriots have been one of the league's best teams at avoiding sacks for the past three seasons."

"The data suggests that the Patriots are not necessarily a team that rarely fumbles. They are a team that rarely allows sacks, which therefore depresses their fumble rates."

Might have more sacks if he didnt have such a good grip on the ball.

What does his grip have to do with sacks?

When a defender runs past the QB and chops at him, a fumble caused is registered as a sack.

Are you asserting that a QB holding a football inflated with a pound less air pressure will be more likely to hold onto the ball when a 300 lb D-lineman karate chops his arm from the blind side before the QB crumbles to the ground?

Yes. Obviously the less inflated it is the better grip you have. There is no debate on that.

I guess. I personally don't think in the situation you cited that the inflation of the football would have any bearing on a QB holding onto the ball when a giant lineman clubs the ball or the QBs arm when the QB doesn't even know he is coming. IMO, that would be a fumble 100 times out of 100 either way.

Oh yeah. Now think of it being wet, slick or cold. Ore your hands being wet, slick or cold. Hell yeah it helps.

Just ran through his home/away fumble stats. Almost identical since 2007. So no, it doesn't help.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2463486-did-deflated-footballs-really-give-the-patriots-a-fumble-advantage

"Sacks and scrambles accounted for 164 of the 523 offensive fumbles in the NFL last season. On a per-play basis, a sack is far more likely to result in a fumble than any other offensive play. A team that avoids sacks is likely to have a low fumble rate. As the table shows, the Patriots have been one of the league's best teams at avoiding sacks for the past three seasons."

"The data suggests that the Patriots are not necessarily a team that rarely fumbles. They are a team that rarely allows sacks, which therefore depresses their fumble rates."

Might have more sacks if he didnt have such a good grip on the ball.

What does his grip have to do with sacks?

When a defender runs past the QB and chops at him, a fumble caused is registered as a sack.

Are you asserting that a QB holding a football inflated with a pound less air pressure will be more likely to hold onto the ball when a 300 lb D-lineman karate chops his arm from the blind side before the QB crumbles to the ground?

Yes. Obviously the less inflated it is the better grip you have. There is no debate on that.

I guess. I personally don't think in the situation you cited that the inflation of the football would have any bearing on a QB holding onto the ball when a giant lineman clubs the ball or the QBs arm when the QB doesn't even know he is coming. IMO, that would be a fumble 100 times out of 100 either way.

Oh yeah. Now think of it being wet, slick or cold. Ore your hands being wet, slick or cold. Hell yeah it helps.

Just ran through his home/away fumble stats. Almost identical since 2007. So no, it doesn't help.

Because they dont fumble much at all. ??? Imagine that.

 

[rick6668]

It's odd to me that so many people don't seem willing to admit that Brady was absolutely right to not turn over his phone.

Good thing Wells didn't ask him to do so.

Everybody keeps mentioning turning over his phone. He wasn't asked to turn over his phone.

Wells says he never asked for Brady's phone in any capacity but rather was fine with Yee keeping possession of the phone and only turning over "documentation" of certain correspondences and would "trust" that whatever Yee turned over would be an accurate depiction of those messages.

Brady still refused.

 

[BroadwayG]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2463486-did-deflated-footballs-really-give-the-patriots-a-fumble-advantage

"Sacks and scrambles accounted for 164 of the 523 offensive fumbles in the NFL last season. On a per-play basis, a sack is far more likely to result in a fumble than any other offensive play. A team that avoids sacks is likely to have a low fumble rate. As the table shows, the Patriots have been one of the league's best teams at avoiding sacks for the past three seasons."

"The data suggests that the Patriots are not necessarily a team that rarely fumbles. They are a team that rarely allows sacks, which therefore depresses their fumble rates."

Might have more sacks if he didnt have such a good grip on the ball.

What does his grip have to do with sacks?

When a defender runs past the QB and chops at him, a fumble caused is registered as a sack.

Are you asserting that a QB holding a football inflated with a pound less air pressure will be more likely to hold onto the ball when a 300 lb D-lineman karate chops his arm from the blind side before the QB crumbles to the ground?

Yes. Obviously the less inflated it is the better grip you have. There is no debate on that.

I guess. I personally don't think in the situation you cited that the inflation of the football would have any bearing on a QB holding onto the ball when a giant lineman clubs the ball or the QBs arm when the QB doesn't even know he is coming. IMO, that would be a fumble 100 times out of 100 either way.

Oh yeah. Now think of it being wet, slick or cold. Ore your hands being wet, slick or cold. Hell yeah it helps.

Just ran through his home/away fumble stats. Almost identical since 2007. So no, it doesn't help.

Because they dont fumble much at all. ??? Imagine that.

According to your theory, one would think on the road where they don't have Mcnally there would be a whole bunch more sack-fumbles. But there isn't. Since 2007 he's only had 2 seasons where he was sacked more on the road than at home.

 

[Jrodicus]

Ignoring for now what the Ideal Gas Law tells us the psi loss should have been, we're left to wonder why, regardless of which gauge was used pre-game, the Pats' balls showed 0.72-0.75 psi more deflation than the Colts' balls.

In the scientific report, they expect nearly a .8 psi increase from being taken from the cold into the warm locker room at halftime. Perfectly reasonable the colts balls, tested at the end of halftime instead of the beginning are significantly higher. Of course, this is never brought up by the investigation because it all points to nothing happening.

The chart is on page 204 of the report.

Where is it established that the Colts balls were tested at the end of halftime, and the Pats balls at the beginning of halftime?

A much more reasonable assumption (IMO) is that all the balls were tested at about the same time.

It is specifically stated in pg 72-73 they stopped measuring the Colts balls because they ran out of time. A matter of 2 minutes can increase the psi by .3 as it warms up.

What are they doing, putting the balls in a pizza oven at halftime? It's not going to warm up that much in 20 minutes, let alone 2.

Tell eXponent their data is faulty because of a pizza oven. Their controlled experiments show differently.

It's kind of funny how all the data fits to no tampering if you assume Anderson is correct in which gauge he used pregame.

According to Exponent, the environmental conditions with the most significant impact on the pressure measurements

recorded at halftime were the temperature in the Officials Locker Room when the game balls

were tested prior to the game and at halftime, the temperature on the field during the first half of

the game, the amount of time elapsed between when the game balls were brought back to the

Officials Locker Room at halftime and when they were tested, and whether the game balls were

wet or dry when they were tested at halftime. Based on these experiments, Exponent concluded

that the average pressures recorded for the Patriots game balls during halftime of the AFC

Championship Game were lower than the lowest average pressures attained by the simulations.

In other words, when tests were run using the most likely game-day conditions and

circumstances, the Patriots halftime measurements could not be replicated, and the pressures

observed for the Patriots footballs by Exponent during its experiments were all higher.

It looks like Exponent DID take temperature change into account, and that it still did not explain the pressure differences.

As far as your statement, "A matter of 2 minutes can increase the psi by .3 as it warms up," where are you getting that from? I don't see that statement from Exponent anywhere.

 

[BroadwayG]

Ignoring for now what the Ideal Gas Law tells us the psi loss should have been, we're left to wonder why, regardless of which gauge was used pre-game, the Pats' balls showed 0.72-0.75 psi more deflation than the Colts' balls.

In the scientific report, they expect nearly a .8 psi increase from being taken from the cold into the warm locker room at halftime. Perfectly reasonable the colts balls, tested at the end of halftime instead of the beginning are significantly higher. Of course, this is never brought up by the investigation because it all points to nothing happening.

The chart is on page 204 of the report.

Where is it established that the Colts balls were tested at the end of halftime, and the Pats balls at the beginning of halftime?

A much more reasonable assumption (IMO) is that all the balls were tested at about the same time.

It is specifically stated in pg 72-73 they stopped measuring the Colts balls because they ran out of time. A matter of 2 minutes can increase the psi by .3 as it warms up.

What are they doing, putting the balls in a pizza oven at halftime? It's not going to warm up that much in 20 minutes, let alone 2.

Tell eXponent their data is faulty because of a pizza oven. Their controlled experiments show differently.

It's kind of funny how all the data fits to no tampering if you assume Anderson is correct in which gauge he used pregame.

According to Exponent, the environmental conditions with the most significant impact on the pressure measurements

recorded at halftime were the temperature in the Officials Locker Room when the game balls

were tested prior to the game and at halftime, the temperature on the field during the first half of

the game, the amount of time elapsed between when the game balls were brought back to the

Officials Locker Room at halftime and when they were tested, and whether the game balls were

wet or dry when they were tested at halftime. Based on these experiments, Exponent concluded

that the average pressures recorded for the Patriots game balls during halftime of the AFC

Championship Game were lower than the lowest average pressures attained by the simulations.

In other words, when tests were run using the most likely game-day conditions and

circumstances, the Patriots halftime measurements could not be replicated, and the pressures

observed for the Patriots footballs by Exponent during its experiments were all higher.

It looks like Exponent DID take temperature change into account, and that it still did not explain the pressure differences.

As far as your statement, "A matter of 2 minutes can increase the psi by .3 as it warms up," where are you getting that from? I don't see that statement from Exponent anywhere.

The chart is on page 204 of the report. Their simulations assumed that Anderson's memory was both right (about psi) and wrong (about the gauge) at the same time. My point is if Anderson's memory is correct all the time, everything falls into place.

 

[Jrodicus]

Just ran through his home/away fumble stats. Almost identical since 2007. So no, it doesn't help.

Well, yeah, road teams control their own ball. If you're going to deflate at home, why wouldn't you do the same on the road?

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007

 

[BroadwayG]

Just ran through his home/away fumble stats. Almost identical since 2007. So no, it doesn't help.

Well, yeah, road teams control their own ball. If you're going to deflate at home, why wouldn't you do the same on the road?

http://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/blog/2015/the-new-england-patriots-mysteriously-became-fumble-proof-in-2007

So they were bribing the home team's ballboy to deflate their balls after inspection? Or secretly deflating balls on the sideline? Or maybe the center had a needle taped to his finger to deflate the ball pre-snap.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Or maybe the center had a needle taped to his finger to deflate the ball pre-snap.

Don't give Belichick any ideas.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

How does Jimmy G like his balls?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

What does his grip have to do with sacks?

When a defender runs past the QB and chops at him, a fumble caused is registered as a sack.

Are you asserting that a QB holding a football inflated with a pound less air pressure will be more likely to hold onto the ball when a 300 lb D-lineman karate chops his arm from the blind side before the QB crumbles to the ground?

Yes. Obviously the less inflated it is the better grip you have. There is no debate on that.

I guess. I personally don't think in the situation you cited that the inflation of the football would have any bearing on a QB holding onto the ball when a giant lineman clubs the ball or the QBs arm when the QB doesn't even know he is coming. IMO, that would be a fumble 100 times out of 100 either way.

Oh yeah. Now think of it being wet, slick or cold. Ore your hands being wet, slick or cold. Hell yeah it helps.

Just ran through his home/away fumble stats. Almost identical since 2007. So no, it doesn't help.

Because they dont fumble much at all. ??? Imagine that.

According to your theory, one would think on the road where they don't have Mcnally there would be a whole bunch more sack-fumbles. But there isn't. Since 2007 he's only had 2 seasons where he was sacked more on the road than at home.

No, you ran off in an entirely new direction. That wasnt my theory.

 

[BroadwayG]

What does his grip have to do with sacks?

When a defender runs past the QB and chops at him, a fumble caused is registered as a sack.

Are you asserting that a QB holding a football inflated with a pound less air pressure will be more likely to hold onto the ball when a 300 lb D-lineman karate chops his arm from the blind side before the QB crumbles to the ground?

Yes. Obviously the less inflated it is the better grip you have. There is no debate on that.

I guess. I personally don't think in the situation you cited that the inflation of the football would have any bearing on a QB holding onto the ball when a giant lineman clubs the ball or the QBs arm when the QB doesn't even know he is coming. IMO, that would be a fumble 100 times out of 100 either way.

Oh yeah. Now think of it being wet, slick or cold. Ore your hands being wet, slick or cold. Hell yeah it helps.

Just ran through his home/away fumble stats. Almost identical since 2007. So no, it doesn't help.

Because they dont fumble much at all. ??? Imagine that.

According to your theory, one would think on the road where they don't have Mcnally there would be a whole bunch more sack-fumbles. But there isn't. Since 2007 he's only had 2 seasons where he was sacked more on the road than at home.

No, you ran off in an entirely new direction. That wasnt my theory.

Your theory wasn't that the deflated balls gave a better grip, leading to fewer sack-fumbles? Can you clarify your point then?

 

[Synthesizer]

Or maybe the center had a needle taped to his finger to deflate the ball pre-snap.

Luckily the center's nickname is needle ****. So the NFL will have everything it needs to find him guilty.

 

[Jrodicus]

Ignoring for now what the Ideal Gas Law tells us the psi loss should have been, we're left to wonder why, regardless of which gauge was used pre-game, the Pats' balls showed 0.72-0.75 psi more deflation than the Colts' balls.

In the scientific report, they expect nearly a .8 psi increase from being taken from the cold into the warm locker room at halftime. Perfectly reasonable the colts balls, tested at the end of halftime instead of the beginning are significantly higher. Of course, this is never brought up by the investigation because it all points to nothing happening.

The chart is on page 204 of the report.

Where is it established that the Colts balls were tested at the end of halftime, and the Pats balls at the beginning of halftime?

A much more reasonable assumption (IMO) is that all the balls were tested at about the same time.

It is specifically stated in pg 72-73 they stopped measuring the Colts balls because they ran out of time. A matter of 2 minutes can increase the psi by .3 as it warms up.

What are they doing, putting the balls in a pizza oven at halftime? It's not going to warm up that much in 20 minutes, let alone 2.

Tell eXponent their data is faulty because of a pizza oven. Their controlled experiments show differently.

It's kind of funny how all the data fits to no tampering if you assume Anderson is correct in which gauge he used pregame.

According to Exponent, the environmental conditions with the most significant impact on the pressure measurements

recorded at halftime were the temperature in the Officials Locker Room when the game balls

were tested prior to the game and at halftime, the temperature on the field during the first half of

the game, the amount of time elapsed between when the game balls were brought back to the

Officials Locker Room at halftime and when they were tested, and whether the game balls were

wet or dry when they were tested at halftime. Based on these experiments, Exponent concluded

that the average pressures recorded for the Patriots game balls during halftime of the AFC

Championship Game were lower than the lowest average pressures attained by the simulations.

In other words, when tests were run using the most likely game-day conditions and

circumstances, the Patriots halftime measurements could not be replicated, and the pressures

observed for the Patriots footballs by Exponent during its experiments were all higher.

It looks like Exponent DID take temperature change into account, and that it still did not explain the pressure differences.

As far as your statement, "A matter of 2 minutes can increase the psi by .3 as it warms up," where are you getting that from? I don't see that statement from Exponent anywhere.

The chart is on page 204 of the report. Their simulations assumed that Anderson's memory was both right (about psi) and wrong (about the gauge) at the same time. My point is if Anderson's memory is correct all the time, everything falls into place.

The chart shows that the pressure increase is not linear. "A matter of 2 minutes can increase the psi by .3 as it warms up" is only true if you are talking about the first 2 minutes after they were taken to the locker room.

Near the end of the time they were in the locker room, when the Colts balls, were tested, the psi increase over 2 minutes would've been something like 0.05 psi.

Further, if you are going to hang your hat on the Colts balls were more inflated than the Pats because of more time at a higher temp., then you should also see an increase in psi for the Pats as more balls were tested. The last balls tested for the Pats would've had much more time to acclimate than the first ones.

Page 203 states, "For the reasons described below and based on our experiments, the timing

of the measurements taken during halftime of the AFC Championship Game does not on its own

completely account for the difference in the observed average pressure drops between the two

teams."

So yeah, unless you're putting the balls in a pizza oven, they pressure isn't going to continue to increase substantially for the duration of the time that they are in the locker room.

Maybe the Deflator was nuking a frozen burrito at halftime and threw a couple balls in for good measure.

 

[VarsityBlues123]

The NFLPA just slapped around Troy Vincent like he was a worthless person. This is why you dont want lawyers in on this, because it wont matter the facts of Deflategate they will attack the process and win.

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell. In court it wont matter at all if Brady deflated balls, the process will be what is taken to court and the NFL wont stand a chance. This is why I wait for the lawyers to make their cases, especially smart ones like Kessler. I see why he is the thorn in the NFLS side. He owns them.

NFLPA ‏@NFLPA 23m23 minutes ago
#NFLPA Notice of Appeal of Tom Brady Discipline: http://bit.ly/1cDBQWw

 

[BroadwayG]

Since you did notice the chart I assume you saw that the pressure would go up by .8 to 1 psi during halftime. That is very substantial considering the entire 'acceptable' psi window is 1 psi.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

When the NFL investigated the Falcons for pumping fake crowd noise into the Georgia Dome, they took a novel approach.

They fessed up, got rid of a scapegoat, took their punishment and didn’t write a 20,000-word screed explaining that it was just Jim McNally’s step class mix tape.

And Falcons owner Arthur Blank seemed to suggest that was the difference in penalties between his team ($350,000, a fifth-rounder and three months of team president Rich McKay on the competition committee) and the Patriots ($1,000,000, a first- and fourth-round draft pick and four games worth of quarterback Tom Brady).

“That seems to be the general feeling, that some of the frustration whether on an individual basis or organizational basis, was the failure to acknowledge,” Blank said of the Patriots punishment, via the Associated Press.

Blank said he wasn’t familiar with all the details of the DeflateGate investigation (they keep the 10-foot-poles with which to not touch things on Aisle 37 at Home Depot), but couldn’t help but see the differences in his case and Robert Kraft’s.

“Of course you think about it,” Blank said. “The league feels a tremendous sense of responsibility, as do all the owners, in reinforcing the culture of the NFL, the shield and make sure the game remains as balanced and as pure and as true to its integrity and its ethics as can be done. When they find any organization or any individual has gotten off those tracks it’s their job to remind them of that and bring them back on the tracks and do it in a way that really reinforces what the league is about.

“I think in the case of New England they have done that.”

Blank also said that Kraft remained one of the influential owners in the league, and thinks he’ll be able to weather the storm.

“I think after things are processed, Robert will be in a good place, I think the commissioner will be in a good place, I think their relationship will be a good one and they will continue to work for the benefit of the National Football League for a long time,” Blank said.

Jerrah, Blank -- can I get a Mara or Rooney up in here?

Kraft is spitting into the wind on this one.

 

[12punch]

Regardless to how this shakes out in this case, I think the Commissioner's office has to take a stand about cooperation in an internal NFL investigation. If they don't, then it will become routine for the player's to refuse to answer to the Commissioner on any matter at all. What's the penalty for less than optimal cooperation?

I liken this to a drug screen when I worked with missiles. Your name gets pulled at work. You either submit to the test or you get fired (as they assume non-cooperation would lead to a failed test).

I don't know what your particular situation was but that's probably a terrible analogy.

I'm assuming you were non-union, but in the event you were I'd assume drug testing was spelled out in your CBA.

Brady supposedly cooperated with the interview but drew a line at the phone, which doesn't seem unusual at all unless you just want to spin everything.

I wonder if that Miami online coach is wishing he was less cooperative, right now

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The NFLPA just slapped around Troy Vincent like he was a worthless person. This is why you dont want lawyers in on this, because it wont matter the facts of Deflategate they will attack the process and win.

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell. In court it wont matter at all if Brady deflated balls, the process will be what is taken to court and the NFL wont stand a chance. This is why I wait for the lawyers to make their cases, especially smart ones like Kessler. I see why he is the thorn in the NFLS side. He owns them.

NFLPA ‏@NFLPA 23m23 minutes ago
#NFLPA Notice of Appeal of Tom Brady Discipline: http://bit.ly/1cDBQWw

Haha. Same thing as Vilma. It will just get redone by Goodell. Maybe for even more games?

That was their whole defense? A waste of time based upon a signature at the bottom of a form.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Your theory wasn't that the deflated balls gave a better grip, leading to fewer sack-fumbles? Can you clarify your point then?

That's right. Nothing to do with home/away.

 

[Jrodicus]

Since you did notice the chart I assume you saw that the pressure would go up by .8 to 1 psi during halftime. That is very substantial considering the entire 'acceptable' psi window is 1 psi.

So never mind everything that the chart shows - psi increase is not linear, temp over time (first Pats balls would've had less time to regulate than the last Pats balls, Colts balls would not have changed that much compared to the last Pats balls tested, etc.) - or that Exponent themselves say - temperature adjustment by itself doesn't account for the difference, Pats/Colts differences are statistically significant, etc. - you are going to ignore all of that and cherry pick the data you want to recognize?

Hey, it's your prerogative. I'm sure all of this is just an unfortunate misunderstanding.

 

[Dinsy Ejotuz]

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell.

31/32 owners appear to disagree.

 

[BroadwayG]

Your theory wasn't that the deflated balls gave a better grip, leading to fewer sack-fumbles? Can you clarify your point then?

That's right. Nothing to do with home/away.

So you are also a believer of the theory that the pats were somehow able to deflate balls post inspection on the road also? Care to explain how they did that without McNally?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Your theory wasn't that the deflated balls gave a better grip, leading to fewer sack-fumbles? Can you clarify your point then?

That's right. Nothing to do with home/away.

So you are also a believer of the theory that the pats were somehow able to deflate balls post inspection on the road also? Care to explain how they did that without McNally?

Im a believer that they have been doing this for some time. As far as how well they have gotten at it? Not sure, but they are the best in the business at cheating.

 

[Flying Elvis]

Regardless to how this shakes out in this case, I think the Commissioner's office has to take a stand about cooperation in an internal NFL investigation. If they don't, then it will become routine for the player's to refuse to answer to the Commissioner on any matter at all. What's the penalty for less than optimal cooperation?

I liken this to a drug screen when I worked with missiles. Your name gets pulled at work. You either submit to the test or you get fired (as they assume non-cooperation would lead to a failed test).

I don't know what your particular situation was but that's probably a terrible analogy.

I'm assuming you were non-union, but in the event you were I'd assume drug testing was spelled out in your CBA.

Brady supposedly cooperated with the interview but drew a line at the phone, which doesn't seem unusual at all unless you just want to spin everything.

I wonder if that Miami online coach is wishing he was less cooperative, right now

Right? That guy had his cooperation work out so well. I'm pretty sure he'd love to have had the opportunity to tell them to F-off with the full backing of the union to back him up.

“Of course you think about it,” Blank said. “The league feels a tremendous sense of responsibility, as do all the owners, in reinforcing the culture of the NFL, the shield and make sure the game remains as balanced and as pure and as true to its integrity and its ethics as can be done. When they find any organization or any individual has gotten off those tracks it’s their job to remind them of that and bring them back on the tracks and do it in a way that really reinforces what the league is about.

“I think in the case of New England they have done that.”

Interesting. So Mr. Blank just referenced the integrity and ethics of the shield while simultaneously acknowledging that teams periodically stray from that.

 

[Jrodicus]

Your theory wasn't that the deflated balls gave a better grip, leading to fewer sack-fumbles? Can you clarify your point then?

That's right. Nothing to do with home/away.

So you are also a believer of the theory that the pats were somehow able to deflate balls post inspection on the road also? Care to explain how they did that without McNally?

It wouldn't be the craziest thing to happen on the Patriots sideline:

http://nesn.com/2012/05/wes-welker-claims-larry-izzo-once-earned-game-ball-for-pooping-on-sideline-during-patriots-game-vide/

 

[VarsityBlues123]

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell.

31/32 owners appear to disagree.

So you know whats going on behind the scenes?

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

When the NFL investigated the Falcons for pumping fake crowd noise into the Georgia Dome, they took a novel approach.

They fessed up, got rid of a scapegoat, took their punishment and didn’t write a 20,000-word screed explaining that it was just Jim McNally’s step class mix tape.

And Falcons owner Arthur Blank seemed to suggest that was the difference in penalties between his team ($350,000, a fifth-rounder and three months of team president Rich McKay on the competition committee) and the Patriots ($1,000,000, a first- and fourth-round draft pick and four games worth of quarterback Tom Brady).

“That seems to be the general feeling, that some of the frustration whether on an individual basis or organizational basis, was the failure to acknowledge,” Blank said of the Patriots punishment, via the Associated Press.

Blank said he wasn’t familiar with all the details of the DeflateGate investigation (they keep the 10-foot-poles with which to not touch things on Aisle 37 at Home Depot), but couldn’t help but see the differences in his case and Robert Kraft’s.

“Of course you think about it,” Blank said. “The league feels a tremendous sense of responsibility, as do all the owners, in reinforcing the culture of the NFL, the shield and make sure the game remains as balanced and as pure and as true to its integrity and its ethics as can be done. When they find any organization or any individual has gotten off those tracks it’s their job to remind them of that and bring them back on the tracks and do it in a way that really reinforces what the league is about.

“I think in the case of New England they have done that.”

Blank also said that Kraft remained one of the influential owners in the league, and thinks he’ll be able to weather the storm.

“I think after things are processed, Robert will be in a good place, I think the commissioner will be in a good place, I think their relationship will be a good one and they will continue to work for the benefit of the National Football League for a long time,” Blank said.

Jerrah, Blank -- can I get a Mara or Rooney up in here?

Kraft is spitting into the wind on this one.

This is exactly what I was saying before. No team, player, owner etc is or should be bigger than the league. Admit your mistake and move on. The suspension and punishment will/would be a whole let less.

In grand scheme of things the PSI thing is not worthy of the suspension/fine, but the cumulative actions of past behaviour and how they reacted to this post incident have triggered the hefty punishment.

 

[Jrodicus]

Temperature, weather, time - it's all accounted for in the analysis.

If it is difficult for you to understand science, logic, and reason, and you'd prefer pretty pictures instead, look at the pretty charts on pages 215, or tl;dr:

...there appears to be no realistic window in which the Game Day results from both teams can be explained; the Colts measurements are explainable, but the
Patriots measurements are not.

 

[massraider]

The NFLPA just slapped around Troy Vincent like he was a worthless person. This is why you dont want lawyers in on this, because it wont matter the facts of Deflategate they will attack the process and win.

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell. In court it wont matter at all if Brady deflated balls, the process will be what is taken to court and the NFL wont stand a chance. This is why I wait for the lawyers to make their cases, especially smart ones like Kessler. I see why he is the thorn in the NFLS side. He owns them.

NFLPA ‏@NFLPA 23m23 minutes ago
#NFLPA Notice of Appeal of Tom Brady Discipline: http://bit.ly/1cDBQWw

Two things:

The NFLPA scares the NFL about as much as I do, and

Court? This ain't going to court.

 

[Anarchy99]

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2463486-did-deflated-footballs-really-give-the-patriots-a-fumble-advantage

"Sacks and scrambles accounted for 164 of the 523 offensive fumbles in the NFL last season. On a per-play basis, a sack is far more likely to result in a fumble than any other offensive play. A team that avoids sacks is likely to have a low fumble rate. As the table shows, the Patriots have been one of the league's best teams at avoiding sacks for the past three seasons."

"The data suggests that the Patriots are not necessarily a team that rarely fumbles. They are a team that rarely allows sacks, which therefore depresses their fumble rates."

Might have more sacks if he didnt have such a good grip on the ball.

What does his grip have to do with sacks?

When a defender runs past the QB and chops at him, a fumble caused is registered as a sack.

Are you asserting that a QB holding a football inflated with a pound less air pressure will be more likely to hold onto the ball when a 300 lb D-lineman karate chops his arm from the blind side before the QB crumbles to the ground?

Yes. Obviously the less inflated it is the better grip you have. There is no debate on that.

I guess. I personally don't think in the situation you cited that the inflation of the football would have any bearing on a QB holding onto the ball when a giant lineman clubs the ball or the QBs arm when the QB doesn't even know he is coming. IMO, that would be a fumble 100 times out of 100 either way.

Oh yeah. Now think of it being wet, slick or cold. Ore your hands being wet, slick or cold. Hell yeah it helps.

Just ran through his home/away fumble stats. Almost identical since 2007. So no, it doesn't help.

Because they dont fumble much at all. ??? Imagine that.

If you watched even a few Pats games, Brady likely leads the league in getting rid of the ball way too early or just going all out armadillo and falling to the ground when he thinks there is any pressure around him. And as indicated several pages ago, most NE routes are a few yards from the line of scrimmage and Brady gets rid of the ball in two seconds. All that equates to fewer sacks and fewer fumbles.

For those that want to grill the Pats on increased ball security, I think a better case would be made at the other skill positions, not Brady himself.

 

[General Tso]

Not much hope for Tom Brady in appeal

18minutes ago

• Lester Munson, Legal Analyst

A couple of moves Thursday by the NFL Players Association and the New England Patriots will keep the Deflategate discussion front and center for the league and fans for some time. Late Thursday afternoon, quarterback Tom Brady and the NFLPA filed an appeal of a four-game suspension handed down by the league after an investigator concluded Brady had a role in deflating footballs used in the AFC Championship Game against the Indianapolis Colts. A few hours earlier, the Patriots issued a point-by-point rebuttal of the NFL's findings.The actions raise significant questions about the investigation, the team's reaction, the possibility of litigation and Brady's attempt to preserve his legacy:

Q: Can Brady win a reduction in the suspension or eliminate the suspension entirely?

A: No. The evidence gathered by attorney Ted Wells for the NFL's investigation is clear and convincing.

If the arbitrator had the power to actually increase a penalty, well, Brady and the NFLPA might not have filed an appeal.

more http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12888612/tom-brady-nflpa-cannot-win-appeal-filed-deflategate

As expected, Pats* fans are in full-on conspiracy mode about this outlet/article/writer as well.</p>

I think the only chance Brady has for a reduction is if he can construct a convincing argument explaining why he didn't hand over his phone. If he can, he maybe gets a game taken off. My prediction is that the suspension holds at 4 games.

 

[BroadwayG]

Your theory wasn't that the deflated balls gave a better grip, leading to fewer sack-fumbles? Can you clarify your point then?

That's right. Nothing to do with home/away.

So you are also a believer of the theory that the pats were somehow able to deflate balls post inspection on the road also? Care to explain how they did that without McNally?

Im a believer that they have been doing this for some time. As far as how well they have gotten at it? Not sure, but they are the best in the business at cheating.

So...magic it is then.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Your theory wasn't that the deflated balls gave a better grip, leading to fewer sack-fumbles? Can you clarify your point then?

That's right. Nothing to do with home/away.

So you are also a believer of the theory that the pats were somehow able to deflate balls post inspection on the road also? Care to explain how they did that without McNally?

Im a believer that they have been doing this for some time. As far as how well they have gotten at it? Not sure, but they are the best in the business at cheating.

So...magic it is then.

Subterfuge, maybe.

 

[Marauder]

Not much hope for Tom Brady in appeal

18minutes ago

• Lester Munson, Legal Analyst

A couple of moves Thursday by the NFL Players Association and the New England Patriots will keep the Deflategate discussion front and center for the league and fans for some time. Late Thursday afternoon, quarterback Tom Brady and the NFLPA filed an appeal of a four-game suspension handed down by the league after an investigator concluded Brady had a role in deflating footballs used in the AFC Championship Game against the Indianapolis Colts. A few hours earlier, the Patriots issued a point-by-point rebuttal of the NFL's findings.The actions raise significant questions about the investigation, the team's reaction, the possibility of litigation and Brady's attempt to preserve his legacy:

Q: Can Brady win a reduction in the suspension or eliminate the suspension entirely?

A: No. The evidence gathered by attorney Ted Wells for the NFL's investigation is clear and convincing.

If the arbitrator had the power to actually increase a penalty, well, Brady and the NFLPA might not have filed an appeal.

more http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_/id/12888612/tom-brady-nflpa-cannot-win-appeal-filed-deflategate

As expected, Pats* fans are in full-on conspiracy mode about this outlet/article/writer as well.</p>

I think the only chance Brady has for a reduction is if he can construct a convincing argument explaining why he didn't hand over his phone. If he can, he maybe gets a game taken off. My prediction is that the suspension holds at 4 games.

I think it depends on which TV Network has the most clout. CBS will be pressuring Goodell to reduce it to 3 games so Brady's first game back with be the Nationally Televised Sunday afternoon game against the Cowboys. NBC will be pressuring him to keep it at 4 games so his first game back will be the Sunday night game against the Colts. The arguments don't matter.

 

[Anarchy99]

The NFLPA just slapped around Troy Vincent like he was a worthless person. This is why you dont want lawyers in on this, because it wont matter the facts of Deflategate they will attack the process and win.

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell. In court it wont matter at all if Brady deflated balls, the process will be what is taken to court and the NFL wont stand a chance. This is why I wait for the lawyers to make their cases, especially smart ones like Kessler. I see why he is the thorn in the NFLS side. He owns them.

NFLPA ‏@NFLPA 23m23 minutes ago
#NFLPA Notice of Appeal of Tom Brady Discipline: http://bit.ly/1cDBQWw

Two things:

The NFLPA scares the NFL about as much as I do, and

Court? This ain't going to court.

So how did the Saints get many of the Bountygate penalties overturned? Didn't they go to court . . . or was that just on straight appeal? Also, their case took well over a year to be heard and adjudicated. How did they manage that?

People seem to think the Pats won't take this to court because Brady will have to turn over his phone/texts/emails and the two ball handling clowns would have to take the stand. If Brady has minimal info about Deflategate on his communications devices, why not go to court? I think his concern was that he had other personal/private information he didn't want people to have the chance to access or copy. And by the time things had devolved to Wells asking for Brady and attorney to give whatever they saw fit, Brady's team had figured out he was going to get fried with or without his texts so said why bother.

As for the other two maroons, one would think they would keep their mouths shut and they will be taken care of by the team at some point. If they just stick to what they said in their other interviews, I don't think their testimony would be much more damning than it already has.

A case could be made (if a court wanted to hear it is another matter) that the league's sanctions are far beyond the scope compared to penalties for other team's infractions. I don't know the law well enough to have any clue if a court would hear such a case.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

The NFLPA just slapped around Troy Vincent like he was a worthless person. This is why you dont want lawyers in on this, because it wont matter the facts of Deflategate they will attack the process and win.

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell. In court it wont matter at all if Brady deflated balls, the process will be what is taken to court and the NFL wont stand a chance. This is why I wait for the lawyers to make their cases, especially smart ones like Kessler. I see why he is the thorn in the NFLS side. He owns them.

NFLPA ‏@NFLPA 23m23 minutes ago
#NFLPA Notice of Appeal of Tom Brady Discipline: http://bit.ly/1cDBQWw

Two things:

The NFLPA scares the NFL about as much as I do, and

Court? This ain't going to court.

So how did the Saints get many of the Bountygate penalties overturned? Didn't they go to court . . . or was that just on straight appeal? Also, their case took well over a year to be heard and adjudicated. How did they manage that?

People seem to think the Pats won't take this to court because Brady will have to turn over his phone/texts/emails and the two ball handling clowns would have to take the stand. If Brady has minimal info about Deflategate on his communications devices, why not go to court? I think his concern was that he had other personal/private information he didn't want people to have the chance to access or copy. And by the time things had devolved to Wells asking for Brady and attorney to give whatever they saw fit, Brady's team had figured out he was going to get fried with or without his texts so said why bother.

As for the other two maroons, one would think they would keep their mouths shut and they will be taken care of by the team at some point. If they just stick to what they said in their other interviews, I don't think their testimony would be much more damning than it already has.

A case could be made (if a court wanted to hear it is another matter) that the league's sanctions are far beyond the scope compared to penalties for other team's infractions. I don't know the law well enough to have any clue if a court would hear such a case.

On a technicality. And then Goodell and co. reinstated the penalties.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

So how did the Saints get many of the Bountygate penalties overturned? Didn't they go to court . . . or was that just on straight appeal? Also, their case took well over a year to be heard and adjudicated. How did they manage that?

I believe that was on appeal. Paul Tagliabue heard the appeal.

The Star Caps case went to the courts but that was to challenge the validity of the testing.

Some one can correct me if I'm wrong here, because I'm going by memory.

 

[General Tso]

Ignoring for now what the Ideal Gas Law tells us the psi loss should have been, we're left to wonder why, regardless of which gauge was used pre-game, the Pats' balls showed 0.72-0.75 psi more deflation than the Colts' balls.

In the scientific report, they expect nearly a .8 psi increase from being taken from the cold into the warm locker room at halftime. Perfectly reasonable the colts balls, tested at the end of halftime instead of the beginning are significantly higher. Of course, this is never brought up by the investigation because it all points to nothing happening.

The chart is on page 204 of the report.

Where is it established that the Colts balls were tested at the end of halftime, and the Pats balls at the beginning of halftime?

A much more reasonable assumption (IMO) is that all the balls were tested at about the same time.

It is specifically stated in pg 72-73 they stopped measuring the Colts balls because they ran out of time. A matter of 2 minutes can increase the psi by .3 as it warms up.

What are they doing, putting the balls in a pizza oven at halftime? It's not going to warm up that much in 20 minutes, let alone 2.

Tell eXponent their data is faulty because of a pizza oven. Their controlled experiments show differently.

It's kind of funny how all the data fits to no tampering if you assume Anderson is correct in which gauge he used pregame.

Yeah, this is the part of the report that's really confounding. Based on the text messages I'm fairly certain the Pats were deflating footballs. But the evidence in the report seems to show that they either didn't do it this game, or if they did, they only let a very little amount of air out. And I believe the ref who says he thinks he used the logo guage pregame. There is no reason to start piece-mealing that certain parts of his statements are believable land others are not. Other than a few of the Bird-brains in here, I think most people can reasonably look at the Wells report and conclude that it's possible a number of different things were true. That the Pats had a sketchy ball boy who likely deflated balls on a regular basis. But on this night, whether it be because he ran out of time, or maybe he knew the refs were looking at him, he didn't do a very good job deflating the balls. Because if you believe the ref, the deflation that occurred to the Pats balls was minor and even explainable by the Ideal Gas Law.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

As for the other two maroons, one would think they would keep their mouths shut and they will be taken care of by the team at some point.

The Pats better really open their wallets because they stand to make some serious coin on the open market one would assume.

 

[Old Smiley]

As for the other two maroons, one would think they would keep their mouths shut and they will be taken care of by the team at some point.

The Pats better really open their wallets because they stand to make some serious coin on the open market one would assume.

Simmons was going on about this in basically the first weeks: where these guys would quietly open a sports bar in Spain or something.

 

[JimmyJabroni]

For anyone who doesn't want to read the whole rebuttal (which is very long) this NFL writer does a good summary.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap3000000492679/article/patriots-issue-response-to-ted-wells-report

 

[General Tso]

The NFLPA just slapped around Troy Vincent like he was a worthless person. This is why you dont want lawyers in on this, because it wont matter the facts of Deflategate they will attack the process and win.

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell. In court it wont matter at all if Brady deflated balls, the process will be what is taken to court and the NFL wont stand a chance. This is why I wait for the lawyers to make their cases, especially smart ones like Kessler. I see why he is the thorn in the NFLS side. He owns them.

NFLPA ‏@NFLPA 23m23 minutes ago

#NFLPA Notice of Appeal of Tom Brady Discipline: http://bit.ly/1cDBQWw

Haha. Same thing as Vilma. It will just get redone by Goodell. Maybe for even more games?

That was their whole defense? A waste of time based upon a signature at the bottom of a form.

It's not the same thing as Vilma. Goodell delivered the suspension to Vilma, as is required under the CBA, but in the Brady case he delegated the punishment determination to Troy Vincent. Maybe I'm missing something, but it looks to me like a clear procedural violation on the part of Goodell, as only the Commissioner can suspend someone for conduct detrimental.

 

[General Tso]

I'm in awe at the stupidity of Goodell. What a major screw up on his part. This is exactly what I meant about the horrible way the NFL handled this, from start to finish. The guy steps all over the CBA and makes up the rules as he goes along. "Commissioner the only one who can hand down discipline for conduct detrimental? Ahh, who cares. I'll just have Troy hand down the discipline and then I'll be able to hear the appeal." The NFL is going to get their ### reamed on this one, as they should. You know it's bad when the entire focus of the Players Union appeal is on one issue and one issue only.

 

[rick6668]

The NFLPA just slapped around Troy Vincent like he was a worthless person. This is why you dont want lawyers in on this, because it wont matter the facts of Deflategate they will attack the process and win.

The NFL is about to be destroyed and this will be the end of Goodell. In court it wont matter at all if Brady deflated balls, the process will be what is taken to court and the NFL wont stand a chance. This is why I wait for the lawyers to make their cases, especially smart ones like Kessler. I see why he is the thorn in the NFLS side. He owns them.

NFLPA ‏@NFLPA 23m23 minutes ago
#NFLPA Notice of Appeal of Tom Brady Discipline: http://bit.ly/1cDBQWw

Two things:

The NFLPA scares the NFL about as much as I do, and

Court? This ain't going to court.

So how did the Saints get many of the Bountygate penalties overturned? Didn't they go to court . . . or was that just on straight appeal? Also, their case took well over a year to be heard and adjudicated. How did they manage that?

People seem to think the Pats won't take this to court because Brady will have to turn over his phone/texts/emails and the two ball handling clowns would have to take the stand. If Brady has minimal info about Deflategate on his communications devices, why not go to court? I think his concern was that he had other personal/private information he didn't want people to have the chance to access or copy. And by the time things had devolved to Wells asking for Brady and attorney to give whatever they saw fit, Brady's team had figured out he was going to get fried with or without his texts so said why bother.

As for the other two maroons, one would think they would keep their mouths shut and they will be taken care of by the team at some point. If they just stick to what they said in their other interviews, I don't think their testimony would be much more damning than it already has.

A case could be made (if a court wanted to hear it is another matter) that the league's sanctions are far beyond the scope compared to penalties for other team's infractions. I don't know the law well enough to have any clue if a court would hear such a case.

They both changed their story multiple times. They will get hammered if they get questioned again.

One example from the report regarding the 50,000 yard ball which Jastremski texted multiple people about being the ball he got signed by Brady and he kept.

When interviewed, Jastremski appeared evasive in response to questions about receiving autographed items from Brady. Jastremski acknowledged that he asked Brady to autograph a football for him this past season, but when asked whether it was a particular or special football, Jastremski said that it was “just a general” football. In response to further questions, Jastremski said that he was only guessing that the football had been used in a game, that he did not recall the game in which the football was used, and that the football did “not really” have any special significance. When asked specifically whether he recalled that Brady crossed the 50,000 yard career milestone in October 2014, Jastremski then acknowledged that the autographed ball “was the 50,000 passing yard ball” and that it was intended to be a “minicollection item for myself.” When asked to confirm that the ball Brady autographed for him was the actual ball used by Brady to reach the 50,000 yard mark, Jastremski said that it was not the actual ball, but rather another ball used in that game, and that the Director of Security for the 56 According to Jastremski, although he would like Brady to sign a jersey, he has never asked Brady to do so and does not think people “understand the awkwardness” of asking someone at work for an autograph. In contrast, Brady said that he signs multiple autographs a day, and did not think that he had ever turned down an autograph request from anyone associated with the Patriots. 94 Patriots retrieved the actual milestone ball at the game. When confronted with the messages referenced above, Jastremski said that his statements that the autographed ball was the actual 50,000 yard football were not truthful. Jastremski said that he could not recall telling Brady that it was the actual 50,000 yard football, but wanted Brady to sign the football “as a 50,000 yard memory.”