Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)

[The General]

Think the thread is finally in it's death throes.

 

[Run It Up]

Think the thread is finally in it's death throes.

Well under the 500+ pages I thought this would hit.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

Think the thread is finally in it's death throes.

Well under the 500+ pages I thought this would hit.

it aint ova till a whole lotta rosie sings

 

[GoBirds]

Think the thread is finally in it's death throes.

The usual suspects will come up with something crazy to cling to.....wait for it.

 

[Dezbelief]

Think the thread is finally in it's death throes.

Well under the 500+ pages I thought this would hit.

There's still the Brady appeal to go.

 

[General Tso]

Think the thread is finally in it's death throes.

The usual suspects will come up with something crazy to cling to.....wait for it.

Not from me. I just renounced my fandom on the Patriots* forum. I'm done.Help me out Bird, who's left on the Eagles to root for??

 

[Dezbelief]

Think the thread is finally in it's death throes.

The usual suspects will come up with something crazy to cling to.....wait for it.

Not from me. I just renounced my fandom on the Patriots* forum. I'm done.Help me out Bird, who's left on the Eagles to root for??

TEBOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll be rooting for Murray even when he's playing against the Boys, I just won't be rooting for him to win those games.

 

[Jercules]

Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

That's the problem with these giant threads. Just when you think you've made some progress, and have delved into the issues a bit with friends and foes alike, some newbie comes along and posts the stuff we dealt with 100 pages ago.

And plenty of fiction is well-reviewed, so I don't see the point there.

Latest theory to chew on: Goodell knew any sane independent arbitrator would carpet his doghouse with the Wells report, so he had to fix it so that he would hear Brady's appeal.

Great theory. Were Marty McFly and Doc Brown in on it? Because the CBA that the players union agreed to in 2011 specifically says Goodell has the power to hear appeals of player punishment himself (if he chooses to do so).

So unless you think Goodell was planning this back when the CBA was being hammered out in 2011, he didn't have to "fix" anything so that he would hear Brady's appeal, he only had to exercise the right that Brady (and the rest of the NFL players) gave him.

He needed his boy Troy Vincent to dole out the initial punishment so that he could appoint himself as arbitrator for the inevitable appeal.

Troy Vincent is usually not the person deciding lengths of suspensions, draft picks lost, etc., perhaps you've noticed.

It's an obvious play by Goodell. it will be interesting to see what the long term ramifications might be.

No, he didn't. That's just something that Patriot fanboys latched onto because it fit their "out to get us" nonsense.

The CBA gives Goodell the power to hand out punishments AND the power to hear any appeals of those punishments. He shouldn't have allowed Vincent to hand out the punishment (although a legal argument that Vincent was acting as his proxy, therefore he didn't actually violate the CBA), but Goodell has always had the right to hear Brady's appeal, if he chooses to do so.

Read the CBA, rather than listening to homer nonsense that is based on nothing except "maybe this is true, b/c it's good news for NE!"

I have to concede, you're right. Apparently having Vincent play such an active role in doling out the punishment was Goodell's attempt to shield himself, somewhat, from the rage of Mr. Kraft (hard to imagine it worked).

"Out to get us nonsense" is ultimately a foolish statement though. The Wells report itself states tampering with a game ball post-inspection is supposed to net a $25,000 fine. You can harp about a failure to cooperate (not something the NFLPA agrees with btw), or past history (the spygate nonsense), or whatever, there's simply no reasonable bridge between that recommendation and what was ultimately doled out.

Plus, the NFL sat idly by while drastic mistakes in reporting of the incident stoked the anti-Patriots furor that they are now forced to react to with this wildly absurd punishment.

I do not necessarily claim they haven't got good reason to be out to get us. But they are most definitely out to get us, rest assured.

 

[Jercules]

Why was the punishment so severe? There's an element of 'nailing Capone for tax evasion' here.

People say the Pats didn't cooperate with Wells, but that's highly debatable (and what constitutes adequate cooperation?)

People say it's the history, but spygate alone was such a technical and ultimately meaningless infraction that it can't be the reason either.

I think it's simply the reputation the Patriots have around the league, that they cut every corner and find every advantage, and typically get away with it. Goodell is under immense pressure to 'reel these guys in', so to speak, so whatever proof of wrongdoing he can conjure up is used to crucify them.

The unspoken truth is: we're taking a million dollars, two draft picks, and four games from your MVP for likely tampering with game balls in January... and all that other crap that you know that we know that you do that you always get away with.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

http://www.wavsource.com/snds_2015-05-17_7234963463096348/movies/godfather/godfather2_apology.wav

 

[The General]

Why was the punishment so severe? There's an element of 'nailing Capone for tax evasion' here.

People say the Pats didn't cooperate with Wells, but that's highly debatable (and what constitutes adequate cooperation?)

People say it's the history, but spygate alone was such a technical and ultimately meaningless infraction that it can't be the reason either.

I think it's simply the reputation the Patriots have around the league, that they cut every corner and find every advantage, and typically get away with it. Goodell is under immense pressure to 'reel these guys in', so to speak, so whatever proof of wrongdoing he can conjure up is used to crucify them.

The unspoken truth is: we're taking a million dollars, two draft picks, and four games from your MVP for likely tampering with game balls in January... and all that other crap that you know that we know that you do that you always get away with.

The slightest bit of humility may have helped them.

 

[Old Smiley]

Think the thread is finally in it's death throes.

The usual suspects will come up with something crazy to cling to.....wait for it.

Not from me. I just renounced my fandom on the Patriots* forum. I'm done.Help me out Bird, who's left on the Eagles to root for??

Gonna be a wild ride. Is there a team that could more go either way?

 

[Bayhawks]

Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

That's the problem with these giant threads. Just when you think you've made some progress, and have delved into the issues a bit with friends and foes alike, some newbie comes along and posts the stuff we dealt with 100 pages ago.

And plenty of fiction is well-reviewed, so I don't see the point there.

Latest theory to chew on: Goodell knew any sane independent arbitrator would carpet his doghouse with the Wells report, so he had to fix it so that he would hear Brady's appeal.

Great theory. Were Marty McFly and Doc Brown in on it? Because the CBA that the players union agreed to in 2011 specifically says Goodell has the power to hear appeals of player punishment himself (if he chooses to do so).

So unless you think Goodell was planning this back when the CBA was being hammered out in 2011, he didn't have to "fix" anything so that he would hear Brady's appeal, he only had to exercise the right that Brady (and the rest of the NFL players) gave him.

He needed his boy Troy Vincent to dole out the initial punishment so that he could appoint himself as arbitrator for the inevitable appeal.

Troy Vincent is usually not the person deciding lengths of suspensions, draft picks lost, etc., perhaps you've noticed.

It's an obvious play by Goodell. it will be interesting to see what the long term ramifications might be.

No, he didn't. That's just something that Patriot fanboys latched onto because it fit their "out to get us" nonsense.

The CBA gives Goodell the power to hand out punishments AND the power to hear any appeals of those punishments. He shouldn't have allowed Vincent to hand out the punishment (although a legal argument that Vincent was acting as his proxy, therefore he didn't actually violate the CBA), but Goodell has always had the right to hear Brady's appeal, if he chooses to do so.

Read the CBA, rather than listening to homer nonsense that is based on nothing except "maybe this is true, b/c it's good news for NE!"

I have to concede, you're right. Apparently having Vincent play such an active role in doling out the punishment was Goodell's attempt to shield himself, somewhat, from the rage of Mr. Kraft (hard to imagine it worked).

"Out to get us nonsense" is ultimately a foolish statement though. The Wells report itself states tampering with a game ball post-inspection is supposed to net a $25,000 fine. You can harp about a failure to cooperate (not something the NFLPA agrees with btw), or past history (the spygate nonsense), or whatever, there's simply no reasonable bridge between that recommendation and what was ultimately doled out.

Plus, the NFL sat idly by while drastic mistakes in reporting of the incident stoked the anti-Patriots furor that they are now forced to react to with this wildly absurd punishment.

I do not necessarily claim they haven't got good reason to be out to get us. But they are most definitely out to get us, rest assured.

1-No, it doesn't. It states that tampering with game balls post-inspection is, AT MINIMUM, a $25,000 fine.

2-You are arguing a different point now. I have said, since the punishments were handed down, that they were too severe. However, countless Pats fans (not sure whether you are one of these or not), on this board and others have railed on and on about conspiracies, stings, the NFL/Goodell having it in for the Pats, etc. The idea that Goodell had Vincent issue the punishment, IN ORDER to allow himself to hear any appeal was one of the pieces of "proof" that the NFL was out to get them. As I've noted, this piece of "proof" was based on fiction, as has much of the "proof" of any conspiracy or sting attempts.

The fact is the Pats broke a rule, then tried to throw their weight around by claiming they were blameless, demanding apologies, and just basically being jackasses. Pats fans want their past history not to be a factor, but that's not reality. Because of their past transgressions (that we are aware of), and their generally #####-y behavior after deflategate broke, they got a stiffer penalty than they might have otherwise.

 

[davearm]

Why was the punishment so severe? There's an element of 'nailing Capone for tax evasion' here.

People say the Pats didn't cooperate with Wells, but that's highly debatable (and what constitutes adequate cooperation?)

People say it's the history, but spygate alone was such a technical and ultimately meaningless infraction that it can't be the reason either.

I think it's simply the reputation the Patriots have around the league, that they cut every corner and find every advantage, and typically get away with it. Goodell is under immense pressure to 'reel these guys in', so to speak, so whatever proof of wrongdoing he can conjure up is used to crucify them.

The unspoken truth is: we're taking a million dollars, two draft picks, and four games from your MVP for likely tampering with game balls in January... and all that other crap that you know that we know that you do that you always get away with.

Just quit with the conspiracy theories and open your eyes.

The Pats didn't cooperate fully. They refused to facilitate a second interview with McNally. Brady refused to submit his phone records. These are things the investigators wanted/needed, and they didn't get them, because of the Pats' noncooperation. It's pretty open and shut.

The severity of the crime here, and in Spygate for that matter, isn't really the issue. The issue is a proclivity to cheat the rules. Recall that Spygate wasn't a first offense -- there were gameball shenanigans back in 2004. After Spygate, the NFL tried to send a strong and clear message to CUT IT OUT. The Pats didn't cut it out, so now the message has to come that much louder.

The Pats broke a rule. Then they refused to cooperate. And they're repeat offenders.

The latter two of those are the reasons the punishment is as severe as it is. The grandstanding and defiance surely didn't help either.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Boston Herald writer Karen Guregian is saying that Kraft is going to directly request Brady to accept whatever Goodell rules.

 

[Anarchy99]

Boston Herald writer Karen Guregian is saying that Kraft is going to directly request Brady to accept whatever Goodell rules.

Don't see it happening. Brady has options. The Patriots didn't. Kraft would have to give something to Brady to make it worth his while to just eat it.

 

[Run It Up]

Boston Herald writer Karen Guregian is saying that Kraft is going to directly request Brady to accept whatever Goodell rules.

Can you back out of an appeal?

Also, if this actually did happen I would actually be mad at Kraft. The team punishment is one thing, this is a whole other thing entirely.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Boston Herald writer Karen Guregian is saying that Kraft is going to directly request Brady to accept whatever Goodell rules.

Can you back out of an appeal?

Also, if this actually did happen I would actually be mad at Kraft. The team punishment is one thing, this is a whole other thing entirely.

I think he's saying to accept whatever Goodell rules on appeal - not that he shouldn't go through with the appeal.

 

[JohnnyU]

Boston Herald writer Karen Guregian is saying that Kraft is going to directly request Brady to accept whatever Goodell rules.

Don't see it happening. Brady has options. The Patriots didn't. Kraft would have to give something to Brady to make it worth his while to just eat it.

That something could be something that Kraft is now privy to but the rest of us, including Brady, are not. Perhaps Kraft will enlighten Brady to those details if they exist.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

No matter what happens in his appeal Brady will retain his millions, his looks, and his wife, at least as far as I know. He will still get to golf with Jordan. He will still have tiger blood coursing through his veins. He will still get tables at restaurants and clubs which will not let me through the front door during off hours even if I give the doorman a "c" note. Brady will be just fine.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I'll be interested to see whether Kraft tries to change the culture of the organization, basically telling them to knock it off with the cheating and line-pushing. His initial reaction to all of this was to get pissed off the league, when it seems more appropriate at this point to be pissed at some of his underlings. They made him look like a fool in public.

 

[Run It Up]

I'll be interested to see whether Kraft tries to change the culture of the organization, basically telling them to knock it off with the cheating and line-pushing. His initial reaction to all of this was to get pissed off the league, when it seems more appropriate at this point to be pissed at some of his underlings. They made him look like a fool in public.

I don't think his opinion has changed on the matter. The Pats are innocent.

If anything it just cements the us vs the World mentality that was already pretty much their credo.

 

[Dezbelief]

I'll be interested to see whether Kraft tries to change the culture of the organization, basically telling them to knock it off with the cheating and line-pushing. His initial reaction to all of this was to get pissed off the league, when it seems more appropriate at this point to be pissed at some of his underlings. They made him look like a fool in public.

I don't think his opinion has changed on the matter. The Pats are innocent.

Just stop.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Why was the punishment so severe? There's an element of 'nailing Capone for tax evasion' here.

People say the Pats didn't cooperate with Wells, but that's highly debatable (and what constitutes adequate cooperation?)

People say it's the history, but spygate alone was such a technical and ultimately meaningless infraction that it can't be the reason either.

I think it's simply the reputation the Patriots have around the league, that they cut every corner and find every advantage, and typically get away with it. Goodell is under immense pressure to 'reel these guys in', so to speak, so whatever proof of wrongdoing he can conjure up is used to crucify them.

The unspoken truth is: we're taking a million dollars, two draft picks, and four games from your MVP for likely tampering with game balls in January... and all that other crap that you know that we know that you do that you always get away with.

Salty haters and Pats fanboys coming together...I agree with this post. The Capone analogy is perfect.

The only thing I dont wholeheartedly buy into is the concept that Spygate was a meaningless infraction. I find myself on the other side of that one, and believe that there is a lot we dont know about what really happened there. You dont just "lose" evidence of that magnitude, unless you are losing it for good reason. I am on the conspiracy side of that one, and think the Pats got seriously hooked up by the league, which is why the hammer is coming down so hard now.

 

[Run It Up]

Why was the punishment so severe? There's an element of 'nailing Capone for tax evasion' here.

People say the Pats didn't cooperate with Wells, but that's highly debatable (and what constitutes adequate cooperation?)

People say it's the history, but spygate alone was such a technical and ultimately meaningless infraction that it can't be the reason either.

I think it's simply the reputation the Patriots have around the league, that they cut every corner and find every advantage, and typically get away with it. Goodell is under immense pressure to 'reel these guys in', so to speak, so whatever proof of wrongdoing he can conjure up is used to crucify them.

The unspoken truth is: we're taking a million dollars, two draft picks, and four games from your MVP for likely tampering with game balls in January... and all that other crap that you know that we know that you do that you always get away with.

Salty haters and Pats fanboys coming together...I agree with this post. The Capone analogy is perfect.

The only thing I dont wholeheartedly buy into is the concept that Spygate was a meaningless infraction. I find myself on the other side of that one, and believe that there is a lot we dont know about what really happened there. You dont just "lose" evidence of that magnitude, unless you are losing it for good reason. I am on the conspiracy side of that one, and think the Pats got seriously hooked up by the league, which is why the hammer is coming down so hard now.

What evidence was lost?

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Why was the punishment so severe? There's an element of 'nailing Capone for tax evasion' here.

People say the Pats didn't cooperate with Wells, but that's highly debatable (and what constitutes adequate cooperation?)

People say it's the history, but spygate alone was such a technical and ultimately meaningless infraction that it can't be the reason either.

I think it's simply the reputation the Patriots have around the league, that they cut every corner and find every advantage, and typically get away with it. Goodell is under immense pressure to 'reel these guys in', so to speak, so whatever proof of wrongdoing he can conjure up is used to crucify them.

The unspoken truth is: we're taking a million dollars, two draft picks, and four games from your MVP for likely tampering with game balls in January... and all that other crap that you know that we know that you do that you always get away with.

Salty haters and Pats fanboys coming together...I agree with this post. The Capone analogy is perfect.

The only thing I dont wholeheartedly buy into is the concept that Spygate was a meaningless infraction. I find myself on the other side of that one, and believe that there is a lot we dont know about what really happened there. You dont just "lose" evidence of that magnitude, unless you are losing it for good reason. I am on the conspiracy side of that one, and think the Pats got seriously hooked up by the league, which is why the hammer is coming down so hard now.

What evidence was lost?

Apologies if I am mistaken about what happened to all of the video that the public never got to see. If it wasnt "lost", it was locked away and hidden from the general public, or destroyed. I dont remember the exact nature of the BS that ensued with that scandal, because at that time I only really cared about what happened on the field. Any of the 3 leads me to the same exact conclusion though.

 

[Run It Up]

Why was the punishment so severe? There's an element of 'nailing Capone for tax evasion' here.

People say the Pats didn't cooperate with Wells, but that's highly debatable (and what constitutes adequate cooperation?)

People say it's the history, but spygate alone was such a technical and ultimately meaningless infraction that it can't be the reason either.

I think it's simply the reputation the Patriots have around the league, that they cut every corner and find every advantage, and typically get away with it. Goodell is under immense pressure to 'reel these guys in', so to speak, so whatever proof of wrongdoing he can conjure up is used to crucify them.

The unspoken truth is: we're taking a million dollars, two draft picks, and four games from your MVP for likely tampering with game balls in January... and all that other crap that you know that we know that you do that you always get away with.

Salty haters and Pats fanboys coming together...I agree with this post. The Capone analogy is perfect.

The only thing I dont wholeheartedly buy into is the concept that Spygate was a meaningless infraction. I find myself on the other side of that one, and believe that there is a lot we dont know about what really happened there. You dont just "lose" evidence of that magnitude, unless you are losing it for good reason. I am on the conspiracy side of that one, and think the Pats got seriously hooked up by the league, which is why the hammer is coming down so hard now.

What evidence was lost?

Apologies if I am mistaken about what happened to all of the video that the public never got to see. If it wasnt "lost", it was locked away and hidden from the general public, or destroyed. I dont remember the exact nature of the BS that ensued with that scandal, because at that time I only really cared about what happened on the field. Any of the 3 leads me to the same exact conclusion though.

When spygate happened, they played all of the tapes on live broadcast television...

 

[moleculo]

Why was the punishment so severe? There's an element of 'nailing Capone for tax evasion' here.

People say the Pats didn't cooperate with Wells, but that's highly debatable (and what constitutes adequate cooperation?)

People say it's the history, but spygate alone was such a technical and ultimately meaningless infraction that it can't be the reason either.

I think it's simply the reputation the Patriots have around the league, that they cut every corner and find every advantage, and typically get away with it. Goodell is under immense pressure to 'reel these guys in', so to speak, so whatever proof of wrongdoing he can conjure up is used to crucify them.

The unspoken truth is: we're taking a million dollars, two draft picks, and four games from your MVP for likely tampering with game balls in January... and all that other crap that you know that we know that you do that you always get away with.

Salty haters and Pats fanboys coming together...I agree with this post. The Capone analogy is perfect.

The only thing I dont wholeheartedly buy into is the concept that Spygate was a meaningless infraction. I find myself on the other side of that one, and believe that there is a lot we dont know about what really happened there. You dont just "lose" evidence of that magnitude, unless you are losing it for good reason. I am on the conspiracy side of that one, and think the Pats got seriously hooked up by the league, which is why the hammer is coming down so hard now.

What evidence was lost?

Apologies if I am mistaken about what happened to all of the video that the public never got to see. If it wasnt "lost", it was locked away and hidden from the general public, or destroyed. I dont remember the exact nature of the BS that ensued with that scandal, because at that time I only really cared about what happened on the field. Any of the 3 leads me to the same exact conclusion though.

When spygate happened, they played all of the tapes on live broadcast television...

come on now. You know that godell destroyed the tapes the Patriots turned over...

 

[Spin]

Goodell to Kraft, "Look, I did all of this for you... hear me out.... The fine is 1 million, but the 4 game suspension from Brady saves you 2 million, so you're actually netting a million in the process. You guys don't care about the first 4 games anyways, what'd you go last year? 2-2? Give Brady an extra month off to rest and prep for the rest of the season. He'll come back with a vengeance, your team will embrace the 'us against the world' mentality, and you'll ride the wave of momentum to another superbowl win. The 1st round pick will be 32nd anyways, so it's practically a 2nd round pick. You always end up with a million of them anyways. It's really not THAT big of a punishment for you guys, and we get to look like we came down hard, when in actuality all of this benefits you! More money in your pocket, your star, but aging qb, gets more rest for the games that really matter, and the team will have the fuel it needs to win. So what do you say, let's drop this whole lawsuit thing and call it a day, eh buddy?"

Kraft to Goodell- "I never thought of it that way.... Makes sense to me, thanks pal!"

Goodell - "I can't believe he bought that... damn I'm good"

You had me convinced they got a good deal.

 

[General Tso]

I'll be interested to see whether Kraft tries to change the culture of the organization, basically telling them to knock it off with the cheating and line-pushing. His initial reaction to all of this was to get pissed off the league, when it seems more appropriate at this point to be pissed at some of his underlings. They made him look like a fool in public.

Exactly. I think what happened is that Kraft is s very trusting guy and believed the team was innocent. I think he believed it all the way until the owners meeting, where he probably had a heart to heart with a few owners who told him he looked foolish.And you're right Ivan - Kraft now has to deal with the ramifications that his company is crooked from top to bottom. His GM, Coach, Quarterback, heck even the equipment guys - they are all cheats. And in hindsight now I can see how such a culture developed under Kraft. He's just not a very strong leader. Dare I say wishy-washy?

So you have rule bending, smart tacticians like Brady and Belichik on the team, working for an owner who's weak and gullible, in a league that is sick of them, run by a Commissioner who loves to smack down all violators. Sounds like the perfect recipe for disaster.

 

[Old Smiley]

Wow, you really flipped.

I'll buy that at least one of the equipment guys took it upon himself to change the balls post inspection, to shut Brady up. But I'll need more to write off Brady and Belichick. Lots more.

People always say, yeah well beyond a reasonable doubt only counts in court, but the thing is the reason we made laws about that is that IT'S A GOOD THING. It's a good principle. But, even given the preponderance of the evidence standard, Wells was full of holes.

ETA: And I'm not even convinced of the ball boys guilt.

ETA II: Let alone Wells going to Exponent, a lab that seems to be one you hire to get the results you want.

 

[Bucky86]

 

[DaveL]

 

[Steelers4Life]

Wow, you really flipped.

I'll buy that at least one of the equipment guys took it upon himself to change the balls post inspection, to shut Brady up. But I'll need more to write off Brady and Belichick. Lots more.

People always say, yeah well beyond a reasonable doubt only counts in court, but the thing is the reason we made laws about that is that IT'S A GOOD THING. It's a good principle. But, even given the preponderance of the evidence standard, Wells was full of holes.

ETA: And I'm not even convinced of the ball boys guilt.

ETA II: Let alone Wells going to Exponent, a lab that seems to be one you hire to get the results you want.

Is Wells going to Exponent that different than the Patriots' rebuttal featuring a scathing article from a Nobel laureate who co-founded a biotech company that has the Kraft Group as a major investor? Especially when they made a point on the website to state that he has no financial ties to the organization? A little misleading, no?

People will believe what they want to believe, and I'm sure there are still Patriot fans who are fighting the fight. But it's a losing battle at this point. There are more holes on the Patriots' side than in the Wells report. Just like your employer doesn't need 100% proof to punish you for something if it clearly looks like you did something wrong, the commissioner's office can punish teams and players when there's plenty of evidence that they broke the rules. Again, the entire Patriots' argument seemed to be geared towards creating reasonable doubt and saying that whether they did it or not, there wasn't enough proof to warrant a punishment.

That website was just released to try and sway public opinion and save the legacy, but you don't put your entire case on the internet if you ever have any real plans to fight it in court or an appeals process.

 

[RUSF18]

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Charles Robinson ‏@CharlesRobinson 11m11 minutes ago
#NFL commissioner Roger Goodell says league DID NOT ask the #Patriots to suspend staffers for deflating footballs. Pats did it themselves.

 

[Old Smiley]

The whole thing has been about public opinion, or rather, the opinion of hack hot-take writers.

 

[Ditkaless Wonders]

The window provided by this thread into the hearts and minds of some patriots fans has been quite illuminating. I understand that when hearts are hurt that minds may do some unusual contortions to provide comfort. I did not appreciate the extent those contortions could take until now.

My thoughts now go out to those Pats fans who have been objective throughout this time. Their hearts too must be hurting. They now have to deal with that disappointment, and with potentially being lumped in with some of the more colorful in that fan base, a double burden in my view.

 

[GrandpaRox]

Boston Herald writer Karen Guregian is saying that Kraft is going to directly request Brady to accept whatever Goodell rules.

This is union issue now, Brady is kind of irrelevant. No way the union backs off this. Also think a lawsuit follows this. Kraft dropping this allows it to be totally a union fight, He actually helped focus the action against the NFL.

 

[DaveL]

The whole thing has been about public opinion, or rather, the opinion of hack hot-take writers.

Whatever helps you sleep at night

 

[The General]

I'll be interested to see whether Kraft tries to change the culture of the organization, basically telling them to knock it off with the cheating and line-pushing. His initial reaction to all of this was to get pissed off the league, when it seems more appropriate at this point to be pissed at some of his underlings. They made him look like a fool in public.

I don't think his opinion has changed on the matter. The Pats are innocent.If anything it just cements the us vs the World mentality that was already pretty much their credo.

Amazing.

 

[The General]

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Charles Robinson ‏@CharlesRobinson 11m11 minutes ago

#NFL commissioner Roger Goodell says league DID NOT ask the #Patriots to suspend staffers for deflating footballs. Pats did it themselves.

Don't know about Charles Robinson but Shefter is basically used as an open mic by everyone in the NFL. The guy doesn't care if things are true, accurate, context just wants to get his name on the ESPN crawl.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

Wow, you really flipped.

I'll buy that at least one of the equipment guys took it upon himself to change the balls post inspection, to shut Brady up. But I'll need more to write off Brady and Belichick. Lots more.

People always say, yeah well beyond a reasonable doubt only counts in court, but the thing is the reason we made laws about that is that IT'S A GOOD THING. It's a good principle. But, even given the preponderance of the evidence standard, Wells was full of holes.

ETA: And I'm not even convinced of the ball boys guilt.

ETA II: Let alone Wells going to Exponent, a lab that seems to be one you hire to get the results you want.

It only counts in CRIMINAL court. In civil matters where billions of dollars may be at stake "more likely than not" (i.e. a preponderance of the evidence) is the threshold.

 

[David Dodds]

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Charles Robinson ‏@CharlesRobinson 11m11 minutes ago
#NFL commissioner Roger Goodell says league DID NOT ask the #Patriots to suspend staffers for deflating footballs. Pats did it themselves.

Sounds like grounds for a lawsuit against the Patriots. How do they justify firing these guys just because they are trying to lose weight?

 

[General Tso]

Per Schefter, Pats two equipment guys were suspended at request of the league.

Charles Robinson ‏@CharlesRobinson 11m11 minutes ago

#NFL commissioner Roger Goodell says league DID NOT ask the #Patriots to suspend staffers for deflating footballs. Pats did it themselves.

Sounds like grounds for a lawsuit against the Patriots. How do they justify firing these guys just because they are trying to lose weight?

#FatLivesMatter#

 

[Jercules]

Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

That's the problem with these giant threads. Just when you think you've made some progress, and have delved into the issues a bit with friends and foes alike, some newbie comes along and posts the stuff we dealt with 100 pages ago.

And plenty of fiction is well-reviewed, so I don't see the point there.

Latest theory to chew on: Goodell knew any sane independent arbitrator would carpet his doghouse with the Wells report, so he had to fix it so that he would hear Brady's appeal.

Great theory. Were Marty McFly and Doc Brown in on it? Because the CBA that the players union agreed to in 2011 specifically says Goodell has the power to hear appeals of player punishment himself (if he chooses to do so).

So unless you think Goodell was planning this back when the CBA was being hammered out in 2011, he didn't have to "fix" anything so that he would hear Brady's appeal, he only had to exercise the right that Brady (and the rest of the NFL players) gave him.

He needed his boy Troy Vincent to dole out the initial punishment so that he could appoint himself as arbitrator for the inevitable appeal.

Troy Vincent is usually not the person deciding lengths of suspensions, draft picks lost, etc., perhaps you've noticed.

It's an obvious play by Goodell. it will be interesting to see what the long term ramifications might be.

No, he didn't. That's just something that Patriot fanboys latched onto because it fit their "out to get us" nonsense.

The CBA gives Goodell the power to hand out punishments AND the power to hear any appeals of those punishments. He shouldn't have allowed Vincent to hand out the punishment (although a legal argument that Vincent was acting as his proxy, therefore he didn't actually violate the CBA), but Goodell has always had the right to hear Brady's appeal, if he chooses to do so.

Read the CBA, rather than listening to homer nonsense that is based on nothing except "maybe this is true, b/c it's good news for NE!"

I have to concede, you're right. Apparently having Vincent play such an active role in doling out the punishment was Goodell's attempt to shield himself, somewhat, from the rage of Mr. Kraft (hard to imagine it worked).

"Out to get us nonsense" is ultimately a foolish statement though. The Wells report itself states tampering with a game ball post-inspection is supposed to net a $25,000 fine. You can harp about a failure to cooperate (not something the NFLPA agrees with btw), or past history (the spygate nonsense), or whatever, there's simply no reasonable bridge between that recommendation and what was ultimately doled out.

Plus, the NFL sat idly by while drastic mistakes in reporting of the incident stoked the anti-Patriots furor that they are now forced to react to with this wildly absurd punishment.

I do not necessarily claim they haven't got good reason to be out to get us. But they are most definitely out to get us, rest assured.

1-No, it doesn't. It states that tampering with game balls post-inspection is, AT MINIMUM, a $25,000 fine.

2-You are arguing a different point now. I have said, since the punishments were handed down, that they were too severe. However, countless Pats fans (not sure whether you are one of these or not), on this board and others have railed on and on about conspiracies, stings, the NFL/Goodell having it in for the Pats, etc. The idea that Goodell had Vincent issue the punishment, IN ORDER to allow himself to hear any appeal was one of the pieces of "proof" that the NFL was out to get them. As I've noted, this piece of "proof" was based on fiction, as has much of the "proof" of any conspiracy or sting attempts.

The fact is the Pats broke a rule, then tried to throw their weight around by claiming they were blameless, demanding apologies, and just basically being jackasses. Pats fans want their past history not to be a factor, but that's not reality. Because of their past transgressions (that we are aware of), and their generally #####-y behavior after deflategate broke, they got a stiffer penalty than they might have otherwise.

So in a wildly egregious case, the Commissioner may decide to raise the fine by as much as 100%, and that would give you... $50,000. Call it a minimum, call it a prescription, call it whatever you will, the point is it indicates appropriate punishment for the infraction the NFL was able to sort of prove happened, and it's been totally ignored.

"The minimum sentence for your crime is 4 months, but because we don't like you you're gonna get life without parole".

 

[Run It Up]

Yeah the NFL didn't say anything to the Pats about disciplining Mcnally and Jestremski. That's why they can come and go as they please right? Without the consent of Troy Vincent.

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

That's the problem with these giant threads. Just when you think you've made some progress, and have delved into the issues a bit with friends and foes alike, some newbie comes along and posts the stuff we dealt with 100 pages ago.

And plenty of fiction is well-reviewed, so I don't see the point there.

Latest theory to chew on: Goodell knew any sane independent arbitrator would carpet his doghouse with the Wells report, so he had to fix it so that he would hear Brady's appeal.

Great theory. Were Marty McFly and Doc Brown in on it? Because the CBA that the players union agreed to in 2011 specifically says Goodell has the power to hear appeals of player punishment himself (if he chooses to do so).

So unless you think Goodell was planning this back when the CBA was being hammered out in 2011, he didn't have to "fix" anything so that he would hear Brady's appeal, he only had to exercise the right that Brady (and the rest of the NFL players) gave him.

He needed his boy Troy Vincent to dole out the initial punishment so that he could appoint himself as arbitrator for the inevitable appeal.

Troy Vincent is usually not the person deciding lengths of suspensions, draft picks lost, etc., perhaps you've noticed.

It's an obvious play by Goodell. it will be interesting to see what the long term ramifications might be.

No, he didn't. That's just something that Patriot fanboys latched onto because it fit their "out to get us" nonsense.

The CBA gives Goodell the power to hand out punishments AND the power to hear any appeals of those punishments. He shouldn't have allowed Vincent to hand out the punishment (although a legal argument that Vincent was acting as his proxy, therefore he didn't actually violate the CBA), but Goodell has always had the right to hear Brady's appeal, if he chooses to do so.

Read the CBA, rather than listening to homer nonsense that is based on nothing except "maybe this is true, b/c it's good news for NE!"

I have to concede, you're right. Apparently having Vincent play such an active role in doling out the punishment was Goodell's attempt to shield himself, somewhat, from the rage of Mr. Kraft (hard to imagine it worked).

"Out to get us nonsense" is ultimately a foolish statement though. The Wells report itself states tampering with a game ball post-inspection is supposed to net a $25,000 fine. You can harp about a failure to cooperate (not something the NFLPA agrees with btw), or past history (the spygate nonsense), or whatever, there's simply no reasonable bridge between that recommendation and what was ultimately doled out.

Plus, the NFL sat idly by while drastic mistakes in reporting of the incident stoked the anti-Patriots furor that they are now forced to react to with this wildly absurd punishment.

I do not necessarily claim they haven't got good reason to be out to get us. But they are most definitely out to get us, rest assured.

1-No, it doesn't. It states that tampering with game balls post-inspection is, AT MINIMUM, a $25,000 fine.

2-You are arguing a different point now. I have said, since the punishments were handed down, that they were too severe. However, countless Pats fans (not sure whether you are one of these or not), on this board and others have railed on and on about conspiracies, stings, the NFL/Goodell having it in for the Pats, etc. The idea that Goodell had Vincent issue the punishment, IN ORDER to allow himself to hear any appeal was one of the pieces of "proof" that the NFL was out to get them. As I've noted, this piece of "proof" was based on fiction, as has much of the "proof" of any conspiracy or sting attempts.

The fact is the Pats broke a rule, then tried to throw their weight around by claiming they were blameless, demanding apologies, and just basically being jackasses. Pats fans want their past history not to be a factor, but that's not reality. Because of their past transgressions (that we are aware of), and their generally #####-y behavior after deflategate broke, they got a stiffer penalty than they might have otherwise.

So in a wildly egregious case, the Commissioner may decide to raise the fine by as much as 100%, and that would give you... $50,000. Call it a minimum, call it a prescription, call it whatever you will, the point is it indicates appropriate punishment for the infraction the NFL was able to sort of prove happened, and it's been totally ignored.

"The minimum sentence for your crime is 4 months, but because we don't like you you're gonna get life without parole".

I agree it would be nice to see the 'why' aspect or a complete breakdown of the punishment Goodell handed out and his reasoning for it.

I guess as a Pats fan you will have to trust that Kraft has now heard and seen the why part of it and it has caused him to accept the punishment without an appeal. That in itself should tell you the punishment is at least somewhat deserved and it entails a lot more than playing with some deflated balls.

 

[ChuckLiddell]

Anyone read this book about Spygate?

http://www.amazon.com/Spygate-Untold-Story-Bryan-OLeary/dp/0985467002/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1349970716&sr=8-1&keywords=spygate+the+untold+story

Has a lot of positive reviews. Supposedly uncovers TONS of dirt about the Patriots that Goodell's office covered up for the good of the league. But in agreeing to destroying evidence and covering things up, he demanded from Kraft that this nonsense of pushing every edge stops.

That was all fine until the Patriots were caught cheating again. And before Patriots nation scream nothing has been proven, etc...we get back to one simple fact:

The Indianapolis Colts alerted the NFL that this would happen in the game they were about to play. And like clockwork, it happened. The Patriots balls were well below the spec.

You know what La'el Collins did when everyone was accusing him of stuff? He took a lie detector test. What did the Patriots do? They stone-walled the investigation from the beginning (one interview per person only), not turning over records, lying about relationships, etc.

The racheting up from the Patriots and Commish's office is entertaining. I see no way this ends well for the Patriots even if the league lessens the penalties. The commish no longer is going to look away and I don't think the Patriots are willing to not try and push every possible edge.

I can see Goodell fining the Patriots every week for not submitting an accurate injury report.

and heaven forbid if New England is still doing any of these other things found in the Spygate book above. That's hammer time.

Goodell was in New England's pocket for Kraft getting him the job and his big raise. For Goodell to turn on that, I am convinced he has ample proof that new England is not honoring their end of the deal he made with them during Spygate. What would Goodell's motivation be to discredit a star in the league and the team that just won the Super Bowl? Goodell has no motive to do this. He wins by this being pushed under the rug again. Yet Goodell is not letting that happen at all. He is digging in. He will be hearing the appeal, etc.

Today, Goodell is not in New England's pocket and I think it's safe to say he never will be again. Unless Kraft can get the backing of the owners and they can oust Goodell, he is going to find the sledding very rough very soon. The problem with escalation is there can be no winners. And it's all pointing to a grand finale where Goodell and Kraft both self-destruct.

That's the problem with these giant threads. Just when you think you've made some progress, and have delved into the issues a bit with friends and foes alike, some newbie comes along and posts the stuff we dealt with 100 pages ago.

And plenty of fiction is well-reviewed, so I don't see the point there.

Latest theory to chew on: Goodell knew any sane independent arbitrator would carpet his doghouse with the Wells report, so he had to fix it so that he would hear Brady's appeal.

Great theory. Were Marty McFly and Doc Brown in on it? Because the CBA that the players union agreed to in 2011 specifically says Goodell has the power to hear appeals of player punishment himself (if he chooses to do so).

So unless you think Goodell was planning this back when the CBA was being hammered out in 2011, he didn't have to "fix" anything so that he would hear Brady's appeal, he only had to exercise the right that Brady (and the rest of the NFL players) gave him.

He needed his boy Troy Vincent to dole out the initial punishment so that he could appoint himself as arbitrator for the inevitable appeal.

Troy Vincent is usually not the person deciding lengths of suspensions, draft picks lost, etc., perhaps you've noticed.

It's an obvious play by Goodell. it will be interesting to see what the long term ramifications might be.

No, he didn't. That's just something that Patriot fanboys latched onto because it fit their "out to get us" nonsense.

The CBA gives Goodell the power to hand out punishments AND the power to hear any appeals of those punishments. He shouldn't have allowed Vincent to hand out the punishment (although a legal argument that Vincent was acting as his proxy, therefore he didn't actually violate the CBA), but Goodell has always had the right to hear Brady's appeal, if he chooses to do so.

Read the CBA, rather than listening to homer nonsense that is based on nothing except "maybe this is true, b/c it's good news for NE!"

I have to concede, you're right. Apparently having Vincent play such an active role in doling out the punishment was Goodell's attempt to shield himself, somewhat, from the rage of Mr. Kraft (hard to imagine it worked).

"Out to get us nonsense" is ultimately a foolish statement though. The Wells report itself states tampering with a game ball post-inspection is supposed to net a $25,000 fine. You can harp about a failure to cooperate (not something the NFLPA agrees with btw), or past history (the spygate nonsense), or whatever, there's simply no reasonable bridge between that recommendation and what was ultimately doled out.

Plus, the NFL sat idly by while drastic mistakes in reporting of the incident stoked the anti-Patriots furor that they are now forced to react to with this wildly absurd punishment.

I do not necessarily claim they haven't got good reason to be out to get us. But they are most definitely out to get us, rest assured.

1-No, it doesn't. It states that tampering with game balls post-inspection is, AT MINIMUM, a $25,000 fine.

2-You are arguing a different point now. I have said, since the punishments were handed down, that they were too severe. However, countless Pats fans (not sure whether you are one of these or not), on this board and others have railed on and on about conspiracies, stings, the NFL/Goodell having it in for the Pats, etc. The idea that Goodell had Vincent issue the punishment, IN ORDER to allow himself to hear any appeal was one of the pieces of "proof" that the NFL was out to get them. As I've noted, this piece of "proof" was based on fiction, as has much of the "proof" of any conspiracy or sting attempts.

The fact is the Pats broke a rule, then tried to throw their weight around by claiming they were blameless, demanding apologies, and just basically being jackasses. Pats fans want their past history not to be a factor, but that's not reality. Because of their past transgressions (that we are aware of), and their generally #####-y behavior after deflategate broke, they got a stiffer penalty than they might have otherwise.

So in a wildly egregious case, the Commissioner may decide to raise the fine by as much as 100%, and that would give you... $50,000. Call it a minimum, call it a prescription, call it whatever you will, the point is it indicates appropriate punishment for the infraction the NFL was able to sort of prove happened, and it's been totally ignored.

"The minimum sentence for your crime is 4 months, but because we don't like you you're gonna get life without parole".

Maybe more like.."The minimum sentence for your crime is 4 months, but due to the fact that you are repeat offender and we let you off easy the first time by "losing" the evidence against you, and you refused to cooperate, and you have proven to be a generally despicable person we are going to send you Oz and make you room with Schillinger for a year"

 

[Jercules]

Why was the punishment so severe? There's an element of 'nailing Capone for tax evasion' here.

People say the Pats didn't cooperate with Wells, but that's highly debatable (and what constitutes adequate cooperation?)

People say it's the history, but spygate alone was such a technical and ultimately meaningless infraction that it can't be the reason either.

I think it's simply the reputation the Patriots have around the league, that they cut every corner and find every advantage, and typically get away with it. Goodell is under immense pressure to 'reel these guys in', so to speak, so whatever proof of wrongdoing he can conjure up is used to crucify them.

The unspoken truth is: we're taking a million dollars, two draft picks, and four games from your MVP for likely tampering with game balls in January... and all that other crap that you know that we know that you do that you always get away with.

Salty haters and Pats fanboys coming together...I agree with this post. The Capone analogy is perfect.

The only thing I dont wholeheartedly buy into is the concept that Spygate was a meaningless infraction. I find myself on the other side of that one, and believe that there is a lot we dont know about what really happened there. You dont just "lose" evidence of that magnitude, unless you are losing it for good reason. I am on the conspiracy side of that one, and think the Pats got seriously hooked up by the league, which is why the hammer is coming down so hard now.

What evidence was lost?

Apologies if I am mistaken about what happened to all of the video that the public never got to see. If it wasnt "lost", it was locked away and hidden from the general public, or destroyed. I dont remember the exact nature of the BS that ensued with that scandal, because at that time I only really cared about what happened on the field. Any of the 3 leads me to the same exact conclusion though.

When spygate happened, they played all of the tapes on live broadcast television...

come on now. You know that godell destroyed the tapes the Patriots turned over...

There was a poster on this message board a while back, GordonGekko (is he still around?), that answered this thing about the tapes to my satisfaction.

Apparently, the reason the evidence was destroyed so swiftly was because Arlen Specter was about to start a congressional inquiry into spygate ostensibly, but really to get into the NFL's business. The NFL has a fair amount of enemies among lawmakers who aren't exactly thrilled with their anti-trust exemption, and the taxpayer dollars an already billion dollar game sucks up with new stadiums, tax exemptions, etc. Spygate was a chance for them to drag the NFL before congress and put the whole operation under the spotlight. Nobody wanted that, so the evidence was swiftly destroyed.

The Wells report is actually a similar thing: the NFL wanted a chance to get an up-close-and-personal look at the Patriots' operation (unless there are other 5 million dollar investigations into teams for minor infractions that I'm unaware of).

What I'd like to know, and honestly, with no snark whatsoever, is what people think the tapes would've shown? All they did was put a cameraman in the wrong place, how could anything evil and nefarious come from that?

 

[Anarchy99]

I said it before and I will say it again, the initial infraction for Deflategate was an equipment violation for tampering with the footballs. The baseline penalty, as cited by many, is a fine of $25,000 (plus the option of more). Financially, the Pats got hit with that dollar amount times 40. No other equipment violation ever sparked an independent investigation and 243-page report. No other team was ever docked any draft picks. And no NFL player had ever been suspended for an equipment violation.

Yes, I understand, part of the penalty is for not fully cooperating with the investigation, being a multiple time offender, and let's be honest, for being a bunch of pompous, self-righteous, arrogant A--holes. And I am not saying the Pats should have skated on this. They should have been punished. But IMO the penalty was way worse than the crime. I would have guessed 2 games for Brady, a $250,000 fine, and a loss of a 4th or 5th round pick.

Getting back to Kraft, he had no options. He could have tried to appeal, but from my understanding, the only hope of winning was to prove the league's process wasn't followed correctly. Just saying the penalty was too severe was not grounds for an appeal. There is no arbitration process for teams as far as I know, and a court battle was either going to go unheard or had no chance of winning. I don't for a minute think any new evidence came to light or Kraft suddenly had an epiphany that his team really did cheat. I think people sat him down and said he had no recourse to mount a challenge. No point in demanding a recount when your opponent got 98% of the vote.

NE went for the we-are-taking-one-for-the-good-of-the-league approach in bowing out gracefully. I think it would have been better received by Pats fans if Kraft came out and staunchly denied any wrongdoing and said he was done fighting because the system is messed up and he had no place to go. So taking the stance that his team was innocent but the league doesn't really allow for team appeals and the courts have rules that do not allow him to pursue things further. Then it would have looked like he was still fighting and didn't cave instead of the way it looks now . . . like NE was guilty and he just chose to stop fighting because it was pointed out that they actually did it.