Patriots being investigated after Colts game (7 Viewers)

[LongDuckDong]

How do you ignore a user?

 

[JIslander]

 

[Bayhawks]

You can refer to my earlier post in which I said that Brady's performance in the first press conference was poor, at best.

But again, you are openly admitting that Wells got to make any assumption he wanted about Brady. He chose to choose the "Brady is protecting his guilt" angle.

Which again, to me comes in question because the league didn't refute the original Mortenson report that made the Patriots out to look like obvious tampering occurred.

Were Wells' conclusions meant to serve an agenda or were they legit based on the facts?

Hey, I'm a damn hypocrite - if the report came out clearing Brady I would be quoting the report as gospel. I am not trying to make myself sound like I am right and you're wrong, and I apologize if I am coming off that way. I am simply saying that the entirety of the exercise comes from whatever agenda you took into it.

Someone coming in totally neutral would probably say "this smells bad but I can't prove anything". Wells came in and said guilty. Pats fans come in and say not guilty.

You seem to be thinking of this in absolutes, like it is a court of law. It isn't. The NFL hired Wells to investigate & they only require that it be "more probable than not" that something happened. So, based on your "smells bad but I can't prove anything," that very well could be more probable than not. You yourself said "the evidence does not support innocence. It just doesn't support absolute guilt. If you believe they are innocent until proven guilty, then it certainly doesn't get you all the way to guilt at least as far as Brady, Belichick, et al." That statement is describing more probable than not. The NFL doesn't need "absolute guilt," and the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply here.

If the standard were "beyond a reasonable doubt," this would be a ridiculous result. As it is, the penalties seem to harsh, which leads me to believe that there was some kind of behind-the-scenes "deal" after Spygate (we'll destroy the tapes, but you guys better keep your noses clean, or we'll drop the hammer next time).

 

[Bayhawks]

I see that hit a nerve.

Interesting.

At least annoying Steeler nation fans have a history that is worthy of respect (coach on the field BS notwithstanding).

Pats fans, recognize reality: your "Dynasty" is an historical asterisk. MAYBE you COULD have POSSIBLY had all that same success without the proven trail of cheating.

'cept you didn't.

You cheated repeatedly and got caught - even filmed practices (honestly as shameful as it comes)

And still you got ### whooped by the New York Giants not once but twice. A cheater, yet still a ---- to New York. Oof.

So stop the posturing. History is what it is. From a Pats perspective that's not especially rosy. What success you had (a ton) is all suspect, and even so there's a team that stole your thunder in any case.

Call me shuked. :shuked:

WTH are you babbling about?

 

[The General]

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/wells-report-more-probable-than-not-colts-played-with-under-inflated-footballs/33495/

did YOU read the report ??

So your counter argument is to post an article that states in the very first sentence, that it agrees with the reports findings? Unbelievable...

We agree with the Wells Report on DeflateGate commissioned by the NFL after the AFC title game between the Colts and Patriots: it's "more probable than not" that Tom Brady was aware of inappropriate handling of Patriots footballs.

 

[Burl]

The problem with the text messages by themselves is that they don't implicate Brady as anything other than someone pissed if the balls were too inflated.

Again, I say this as someone who is a hardcore Pats fan but isn't remotely comfortable with them cheating. I thought Spygate was nonsense, and always will. I think the Saints bounty thing was ridiculous. I think the Dolphins investigation was ridiculous. I think Goodell's approach to discipline is incompetent. And I believe he does it that way because his 32 bosses tell him to.

Now back to the deflation issue:

I have a major issue with the league not retracting the info in the Chris Mortenson report, and it makes me believe the league wanted to control the dialogue on that issue.

I don't believe that the evidence of deflation based on the statistical data would hold up in a court of law because of the issues with the gauges.

I think if Wells had been told "I want the Patriots to come out of here clean" by Goodell, he would have issued a report that said no conclusive evidence exists that there was deflation in the Indy game, nor conclusive evidence that Brady, Belichick, or anyone besides McNally and Jastremski participated in anything resembling ball pressure manipulation.

Goodell could easily have swept it under the rug and said that he was tightening procedures so no one could question anything, but that there was no impact on game integrity. For reasons I legitimately don't understand, he never did.

I will say this, if evidence comes out that shows Brady, Belichick, or anyone else in power directed employees to mess with balls after approved, I will be mortified and have no use for it. I think it shows a blatant disrespect for fair play and I don't like it.

But as a Patriots fan, right now the evidence chain seems to be

• The balls may have been messed with based on statistical assumptions that assume certain things. If you make other assumptions, the statistical data supports the possibility that they weren't. Wells was paid to give his opinion on those assumptions, and his assumption was the one that theorized messing with the balls.
• The league never retracted a clearly inaccurate report which made the Patriots look FAR more guilty than they actually were, results which would leave no doubt as to their guilt. Which does bring question as what bias Wells had when he made the assumptions in point one.
• McNally went missing with the balls for enough time to perhaps mess with the balls.
• McNally and Jastremski joked often about messing with the balls because Brady had issue when they were too inflated.
• Most involved in football believe that if Brady didn't authorize it, there's no way a ballboy would have messed with the balls.

I can ABSOLUTELY see that if you look at it believing the Patriots did wrong, that you can fit the data to it. My issue is that if you want to believe that they didn't (or at least Brady, Belichick, etc didn't order anything), you have no direct evidence that they ordered anything, and the indirect evidence assumes that the balls were messed with, which is at least possibly untrue depending on assumptions you made.

So I leave it at this - if you believe because of Spygate or because Belichick is a meanie that the Patriots are guilty until proven innocent, the evidence does not support innocence. It just doesn't support absolute guilt. If you believe they are innocent until proven guilty, then it certainly doesn't get you all the way to guilt at least as far as Brady, Belichick, et al.

And so the league takes the easy way out under a half assed "more probable than not" threshold that I bet every single one of us who would be terrified to be judged under if we were defendants in court or our loved ones were, and punishes Brady.

If Goodell had docked the Patriots the picks and the fine and not touched Brady, it would have been very difficult for me to argue there wasn't an institutional control issue. You have McNally and the balls going missing right before the AFC championship game, balls that performed differently than the Colts balls, for reasons that we aren't 100% sure about (maybe 70-80% depending again on what standpoint you view it from).

But Brady...you screw with an all time great's reputation without any direct evidence of his guilt besides "well, we think it happened, even though we cant be sure, and if it did, it only would have if Brady knew, just because that's how it works, even though there's no evidence he actually did"...yeah, I think Patriots fans have the right to at least argue on Brady's behalf. I can understand why guys like Moleculo argue as they do because there's a path to his feelings that is "more probable".

Brady screwed with his own legacy. He had every opportunity to clear his name (if it could be done). If he had turned over the records of his text messages/phone calls AND there hadn't been anything "incriminating" there, he'd have gotten off. But he chose not to do so. Now, before we get all the "he didn't want the naked pics of his wife to get out," he didn't actually have to give the phone over, just the records.

The fact that he didn't give the phone records isn't proof of anything, but this isn't a court of law, it's a company, and Wells/Goodell are free to make assumptions in this situation that a jury/judge wouldn't be allowed to. So, when Brady chose not to cooperate, HE opened the door for the assumptions they made. Furthermore, in the court of public opinion, Brady choosing not to allow Wells to see his phone records is damning. It doesn't matter if you think it's fair, he did that to himself.

In a criminal case, a defendant is allowed to plead the 5th, and it can't be held against him/her, but you're incredibly naive if you think people don't see a person do that and think "what is he/she hiding?"

Brady chose to make himself look suspicious. If he had nothing to hide, he wouldn't have done that, IMO.

Wells even went so far as to allow Brady to decide what text messages to hand over to him without him even looking at the phone. He would have taken him at face value that what he was handing over was everything. There was only ONE reason for Brady to say 'no' to that request. Brady didn't know what text message Wells already had/has. If Brady didn't turn over the text message Wells already had in his possession, Brady was going to be labeled a liar and a cheat because Wells knows there was more to the story and Brady was holding out on him.

I personally think there is more "evidence" (text messages) that hasn't been released. You can't tell me an investigator is going to ask to have your text messages and take you at face value when you hand them over without having a general idea what is already in there.

 

[rick6668]

http://www.coldhardfootballfacts.com/content/wells-report-more-probable-than-not-colts-played-with-under-inflated-footballs/33495/

did YOU read the report ??

So your counter argument is to post an article that states in the very first sentence, that it agrees with the reports findings? Unbelievable...

We agree with the Wells Report on DeflateGate commissioned by the NFL after the AFC title game between the Colts and Patriots: it's "more probable than not" that Tom Brady was aware of inappropriate handling of Patriots footballs.

The author

Kerry J. Byrne @footballfacts

#TomBrady should have just punched out his wife on camera. @nflcommish #RogerGoodell would have looked the other way. @nfl

 

[LongDuckDong]

You can refer to my earlier post in which I said that Brady's performance in the first press conference was poor, at best.

But again, you are openly admitting that Wells got to make any assumption he wanted about Brady. He chose to choose the "Brady is protecting his guilt" angle.

Which again, to me comes in question because the league didn't refute the original Mortenson report that made the Patriots out to look like obvious tampering occurred.

Were Wells' conclusions meant to serve an agenda or were they legit based on the facts?

Hey, I'm a damn hypocrite - if the report came out clearing Brady I would be quoting the report as gospel. I am not trying to make myself sound like I am right and you're wrong, and I apologize if I am coming off that way. I am simply saying that the entirety of the exercise comes from whatever agenda you took into it.

Someone coming in totally neutral would probably say "this smells bad but I can't prove anything". Wells came in and said guilty. Pats fans come in and say not guilty.

You seem to be thinking of this in absolutes, like it is a court of law. It isn't. The NFL hired Wells to investigate & they only require that it be "more probable than not" that something happened. So, based on your "smells bad but I can't prove anything," that very well could be more probable than not. You yourself said "the evidence does not support innocence. It just doesn't support absolute guilt. If you believe they are innocent until proven guilty, then it certainly doesn't get you all the way to guilt at least as far as Brady, Belichick, et al." That statement is describing more probable than not. The NFL doesn't need "absolute guilt," and the idea of "innocent until proven guilty" doesn't apply here.

If the standard were "beyond a reasonable doubt," this would be a ridiculous result. As it is, the penalties seem to harsh, which leads me to believe that there was some kind of behind-the-scenes "deal" after Spygate (we'll destroy the tapes, but you guys better keep your noses clean, or we'll drop the hammer next time).

You're exactly right. My point is only that its a mediocre standard by which to levy that punishment. But collectively bargained I suppose.

Ultimately I am trying to be a bridge between homer Patriot fans who refuse to acknowledge something is off and the "OMG PATZ DROOL AND BELICHEAT ONLY WINS CUZ HE CHEATS" that you see above. I don't get why something with reasonable doubt (by the legal standard not collective bargaining) can be handled with a monster punishment. Your theory may be correct re a deal.

 

[LongDuckDong]

The problem with the text messages by themselves is that they don't implicate Brady as anything other than someone pissed if the balls were too inflated.

Again, I say this as someone who is a hardcore Pats fan but isn't remotely comfortable with them cheating. I thought Spygate was nonsense, and always will. I think the Saints bounty thing was ridiculous. I think the Dolphins investigation was ridiculous. I think Goodell's approach to discipline is incompetent. And I believe he does it that way because his 32 bosses tell him to.

Now back to the deflation issue:

I have a major issue with the league not retracting the info in the Chris Mortenson report, and it makes me believe the league wanted to control the dialogue on that issue.

I don't believe that the evidence of deflation based on the statistical data would hold up in a court of law because of the issues with the gauges.

I think if Wells had been told "I want the Patriots to come out of here clean" by Goodell, he would have issued a report that said no conclusive evidence exists that there was deflation in the Indy game, nor conclusive evidence that Brady, Belichick, or anyone besides McNally and Jastremski participated in anything resembling ball pressure manipulation.

Goodell could easily have swept it under the rug and said that he was tightening procedures so no one could question anything, but that there was no impact on game integrity. For reasons I legitimately don't understand, he never did.

I will say this, if evidence comes out that shows Brady, Belichick, or anyone else in power directed employees to mess with balls after approved, I will be mortified and have no use for it. I think it shows a blatant disrespect for fair play and I don't like it.

But as a Patriots fan, right now the evidence chain seems to be

• The balls may have been messed with based on statistical assumptions that assume certain things. If you make other assumptions, the statistical data supports the possibility that they weren't. Wells was paid to give his opinion on those assumptions, and his assumption was the one that theorized messing with the balls.
• The league never retracted a clearly inaccurate report which made the Patriots look FAR more guilty than they actually were, results which would leave no doubt as to their guilt. Which does bring question as what bias Wells had when he made the assumptions in point one.
• McNally went missing with the balls for enough time to perhaps mess with the balls.
• McNally and Jastremski joked often about messing with the balls because Brady had issue when they were too inflated.
• Most involved in football believe that if Brady didn't authorize it, there's no way a ballboy would have messed with the balls.

I can ABSOLUTELY see that if you look at it believing the Patriots did wrong, that you can fit the data to it. My issue is that if you want to believe that they didn't (or at least Brady, Belichick, etc didn't order anything), you have no direct evidence that they ordered anything, and the indirect evidence assumes that the balls were messed with, which is at least possibly untrue depending on assumptions you made.

So I leave it at this - if you believe because of Spygate or because Belichick is a meanie that the Patriots are guilty until proven innocent, the evidence does not support innocence. It just doesn't support absolute guilt. If you believe they are innocent until proven guilty, then it certainly doesn't get you all the way to guilt at least as far as Brady, Belichick, et al.

And so the league takes the easy way out under a half assed "more probable than not" threshold that I bet every single one of us who would be terrified to be judged under if we were defendants in court or our loved ones were, and punishes Brady.

If Goodell had docked the Patriots the picks and the fine and not touched Brady, it would have been very difficult for me to argue there wasn't an institutional control issue. You have McNally and the balls going missing right before the AFC championship game, balls that performed differently than the Colts balls, for reasons that we aren't 100% sure about (maybe 70-80% depending again on what standpoint you view it from).

But Brady...you screw with an all time great's reputation without any direct evidence of his guilt besides "well, we think it happened, even though we cant be sure, and if it did, it only would have if Brady knew, just because that's how it works, even though there's no evidence he actually did"...yeah, I think Patriots fans have the right to at least argue on Brady's behalf. I can understand why guys like Moleculo argue as they do because there's a path to his feelings that is "more probable".

Brady screwed with his own legacy. He had every opportunity to clear his name (if it could be done). If he had turned over the records of his text messages/phone calls AND there hadn't been anything "incriminating" there, he'd have gotten off. But he chose not to do so. Now, before we get all the "he didn't want the naked pics of his wife to get out," he didn't actually have to give the phone over, just the records.

The fact that he didn't give the phone records isn't proof of anything, but this isn't a court of law, it's a company, and Wells/Goodell are free to make assumptions in this situation that a jury/judge wouldn't be allowed to. So, when Brady chose not to cooperate, HE opened the door for the assumptions they made. Furthermore, in the court of public opinion, Brady choosing not to allow Wells to see his phone records is damning. It doesn't matter if you think it's fair, he did that to himself.

In a criminal case, a defendant is allowed to plead the 5th, and it can't be held against him/her, but you're incredibly naive if you think people don't see a person do that and think "what is he/she hiding?"

Brady chose to make himself look suspicious. If he had nothing to hide, he wouldn't have done that, IMO.

Wells even went so far as to allow Brady to decide what text messages to hand over to him without him even looking at the phone. He would have taken him at face value that what he was handing over was everything. There was only ONE reason for Brady to say 'no' to that request. Brady didn't know what text message Wells already had/has. If Brady didn't turn over the text message Wells already had in his possession, Brady was going to be labeled a liar and a cheat because Wells knows there was more to the story and Brady was holding out on him.

I personally think there is more "evidence" (text messages) that hasn't been released. You can't tell me an investigator is going to ask to have your text messages and take you at face value when you hand them over without having a general idea what is already in there.

You are assuming why. You have no idea why. For all you know DeMaurice Smith called him and said "under no circumstances do you set precedent that a player gives over his texts, no matter what". I am not saying I know that happened but it's possible. When you go into it assuming the worst, it's not hard to fit the facts that way.

 

[Koya]

*

Every single accomplishment under this current regime is subject to LEGITIMATE doubt.

What could have been a dynasty of Winners is instead, a legacy of Cheaters.

And for those who pretend that Cheating is winning... there is no greater loser.

So if it could be shown that other SB winning teams broke the rules at some point during their title winning seasons, then they all get asterisks in your mind?

If it were as systematic, flagrant and at times very significant (ie filming), then yes. The Patriots are not a team caught cheating or trying to just bend rules. The Patriots are a team that has repeatedly cheated and repeatedly been caught - and then it happens again, as if they simply have neither regard nor respect for the game.

If Brady, Beli and the Pats don't respect their own game, their profession and franchise, why should anyone respect them - or their accomplishments*

 

[Bayhawks]

The problem with the text messages by themselves is that they don't implicate Brady as anything other than someone pissed if the balls were too inflated.

Again, I say this as someone who is a hardcore Pats fan but isn't remotely comfortable with them cheating. I thought Spygate was nonsense, and always will. I think the Saints bounty thing was ridiculous. I think the Dolphins investigation was ridiculous. I think Goodell's approach to discipline is incompetent. And I believe he does it that way because his 32 bosses tell him to.

Now back to the deflation issue:

I have a major issue with the league not retracting the info in the Chris Mortenson report, and it makes me believe the league wanted to control the dialogue on that issue.

I don't believe that the evidence of deflation based on the statistical data would hold up in a court of law because of the issues with the gauges.

I think if Wells had been told "I want the Patriots to come out of here clean" by Goodell, he would have issued a report that said no conclusive evidence exists that there was deflation in the Indy game, nor conclusive evidence that Brady, Belichick, or anyone besides McNally and Jastremski participated in anything resembling ball pressure manipulation.

Goodell could easily have swept it under the rug and said that he was tightening procedures so no one could question anything, but that there was no impact on game integrity. For reasons I legitimately don't understand, he never did.

I will say this, if evidence comes out that shows Brady, Belichick, or anyone else in power directed employees to mess with balls after approved, I will be mortified and have no use for it. I think it shows a blatant disrespect for fair play and I don't like it.

But as a Patriots fan, right now the evidence chain seems to be

• The balls may have been messed with based on statistical assumptions that assume certain things. If you make other assumptions, the statistical data supports the possibility that they weren't. Wells was paid to give his opinion on those assumptions, and his assumption was the one that theorized messing with the balls.
• The league never retracted a clearly inaccurate report which made the Patriots look FAR more guilty than they actually were, results which would leave no doubt as to their guilt. Which does bring question as what bias Wells had when he made the assumptions in point one.
• McNally went missing with the balls for enough time to perhaps mess with the balls.
• McNally and Jastremski joked often about messing with the balls because Brady had issue when they were too inflated.
• Most involved in football believe that if Brady didn't authorize it, there's no way a ballboy would have messed with the balls.

I can ABSOLUTELY see that if you look at it believing the Patriots did wrong, that you can fit the data to it. My issue is that if you want to believe that they didn't (or at least Brady, Belichick, etc didn't order anything), you have no direct evidence that they ordered anything, and the indirect evidence assumes that the balls were messed with, which is at least possibly untrue depending on assumptions you made.

So I leave it at this - if you believe because of Spygate or because Belichick is a meanie that the Patriots are guilty until proven innocent, the evidence does not support innocence. It just doesn't support absolute guilt. If you believe they are innocent until proven guilty, then it certainly doesn't get you all the way to guilt at least as far as Brady, Belichick, et al.

And so the league takes the easy way out under a half assed "more probable than not" threshold that I bet every single one of us who would be terrified to be judged under if we were defendants in court or our loved ones were, and punishes Brady.

If Goodell had docked the Patriots the picks and the fine and not touched Brady, it would have been very difficult for me to argue there wasn't an institutional control issue. You have McNally and the balls going missing right before the AFC championship game, balls that performed differently than the Colts balls, for reasons that we aren't 100% sure about (maybe 70-80% depending again on what standpoint you view it from).

But Brady...you screw with an all time great's reputation without any direct evidence of his guilt besides "well, we think it happened, even though we cant be sure, and if it did, it only would have if Brady knew, just because that's how it works, even though there's no evidence he actually did"...yeah, I think Patriots fans have the right to at least argue on Brady's behalf. I can understand why guys like Moleculo argue as they do because there's a path to his feelings that is "more probable".

Brady screwed with his own legacy. He had every opportunity to clear his name (if it could be done). If he had turned over the records of his text messages/phone calls AND there hadn't been anything "incriminating" there, he'd have gotten off. But he chose not to do so. Now, before we get all the "he didn't want the naked pics of his wife to get out," he didn't actually have to give the phone over, just the records.

The fact that he didn't give the phone records isn't proof of anything, but this isn't a court of law, it's a company, and Wells/Goodell are free to make assumptions in this situation that a jury/judge wouldn't be allowed to. So, when Brady chose not to cooperate, HE opened the door for the assumptions they made. Furthermore, in the court of public opinion, Brady choosing not to allow Wells to see his phone records is damning. It doesn't matter if you think it's fair, he did that to himself.

In a criminal case, a defendant is allowed to plead the 5th, and it can't be held against him/her, but you're incredibly naive if you think people don't see a person do that and think "what is he/she hiding?"

Brady chose to make himself look suspicious. If he had nothing to hide, he wouldn't have done that, IMO.

Wells even went so far as to allow Brady to decide what text messages to hand over to him without him even looking at the phone. He would have taken him at face value that what he was handing over was everything. There was only ONE reason for Brady to say 'no' to that request. Brady didn't know what text message Wells already had/has. If Brady didn't turn over the text message Wells already had in his possession, Brady was going to be labeled a liar and a cheat because Wells knows there was more to the story and Brady was holding out on him.

I personally think there is more "evidence" (text messages) that hasn't been released. You can't tell me an investigator is going to ask to have your text messages and take you at face value when you hand them over without having a general idea what is already in there.

You are assuming why. You have no idea why. For all you know DeMaurice Smith called him and said "under no circumstances do you set precedent that a player gives over his texts, no matter what". I am not saying I know that happened but it's possible. When you go into it assuming the worst, it's not hard to fit the facts that way.

I think that's unlikely. At Brady's request, the NFLPA didn't advise or represent him while the Wells investigation was occurring.

I asked the question (many pages ago), "why wouldn't Brady have handed over the phone/text records, if he didn't have something to hide on there?" No one was able to give a rational answer. Most responses were "he didn't want someone looking at/leaking to the internet pics of his wife," dis-regarding the fact that RECORDS of the calls/texts wouldn't include these alleged pics. Some people speculated that the NFLPA didn't want him to set that precedent, but the link above refutes that, as Brady didn't want their help/advice. I see no valid reason why he wouldn't allow Wells to see paper copies of his phone records, unless he was hiding something. And yes, I'm assuming, but because Brady CHOSE not to provide those records for Wells, that is all I (or anyone else) can do-but that is the choice Brady made.

 

[Bayhawks]

*

Every single accomplishment under this current regime is subject to LEGITIMATE doubt.

What could have been a dynasty of Winners is instead, a legacy of Cheaters.

And for those who pretend that Cheating is winning... there is no greater loser.

So if it could be shown that other SB winning teams broke the rules at some point during their title winning seasons, then they all get asterisks in your mind?

If it were as systematic, flagrant and at times very significant (ie filming), then yes. The Patriots are not a team caught cheating or trying to just bend rules. The Patriots are a team that has repeatedly cheated and repeatedly been caught - and then it happens again, as if they simply have neither regard nor respect for the game.

If Brady, Beli and the Pats don't respect their own game, their profession and franchise, why should anyone respect them - or their accomplishments*

Well, this is at least a coherent post. Congratulations. You're still saying idiotic things, but at least they can be understood.

The NFL isn't the NCAA; they don't vacate wins/titles/records. It's foolish to suggest they do so. If you, as an individual, want to de-value their accomplishments, you are welcome to do so, but repeating this over (or using large font on a message board!!!) doesn't make it any more valid.

 

[Devine Intervention]

True it's not like the ncaa. But your teams value is always based off public opinion. Same with baseball. In a sport that hinges on so many variables there is no true test of who is the greatest. So it comes down to the public opinion. Look at Barry bonds. He broke the rules, but so what? Who didn't back then? But bonds was a ##### bag and also he lied about it. Now his legacy is smeared. Not because his stats don't back up his value. It's because public opinion is against him.

This may all just blow over. But as of now Brady took a serious hit in the public eye. Yea sure in boston he's still golden. In the rest of the sports world he's tainted and always will have a small ? On his success.

 

[LongDuckDong]

If it were as systematic, flagrant and at times very significant (ie filming), then yes. The Patriots are not a team caught cheating or trying to just bend rules. The Patriots are a team that has repeatedly cheated and repeatedly been caught - and then it happens again, as if they simply have neither regard nor respect for the game.

1. 2007 - Filming coaches signals from an unallowed area - confirmed by all.

2. 2014 - discrepancy with footballs - question of how much involvement if any the leadership of the organization had in it

Please advise where the systemic issue is. And where it happened repeatedly before 2014.

Just saying it out loud doesn't make it true.

(And I say that wishing there was less smoke around the Patriots).

Given that Bill Belichick probably has more reverence for the game than the other 31 coaches in it (If you listen to him talk football you realize just how hard he works at it and loves it), the real question, that I think is actually worth discussion as opposed to the mouth-breathing commentary above, is:

I think most would agree the Patriots are one of those teams because of their Head Coach and QB that is looking for any edge on the margins - and on two occasions that edge on the margins may have been crossed - is it that sort of obsessive behavior that is necessary to sustain success in a parity filled NFL? There are other great coaches, other great QB. None have come close to the 2001-2014 Patriots.

I think everyone involved hope the answer is no.

 

[DropKick]

I had a statistical background in college and haven't used it much since so I was very interested in the analytical aspect of this... And, of course, we know how often the term small sample size gets used here.

A couple things stood out to me about reported PSIs.. We know there was a ~0.4 difference between the two gauges. The measurements attributed to one person were ~0.4 higher on one set of balls but ~0.4 lower on the other. This was explained as the two people switching gauges between sets of balls. That is a rational explanation but it does call into play some variability. The gauges were physically different (angled needle) and had a precision of only 0.05.

The 0.4 delta was pretty consistent - except for one of the Colt's balls. In this case the numbers appeared to be "flip-flopped" and this was explained in the report as a likely transcription error. I'd be more inclined to throw out the measurements since the "high" number was close to the pre-game PSI. It is just as likely a mistake as a transcription error.

So, with 11 Patriot balls and 3 Colt's balls tested, I came up with these numbers (input welcome; college is a distant memory)

The Colt's numbers are adjusted down by 0.5 to account for the higher pre-game PSI

Average: NE 11.109 Indy 11.767

Given NE the benefit of the doubt that the "high" gauge was used pre-game: 11.509

Stand Deviation NE 0.402 Indy 0.104 (more variation in NE's numbers suggest manual adjustment?)

90% Confidence Interval NE 10.91 - 11.31 Indy: 11.67 - 11.87

Given NE the benefit of the doubt that the "high" gauge was used pre-game:

90% Confidence Interval NE 11.31 - 11.71 Indy: 11.67 - 11.87

If it were numbers alone, Brady could beat the NFL over the head here...

Good stuff, and I appreciate you taking your own whack at the analysis. A couple of points:

1. You are correct that there was a transcription error in the colts balls - it was with ball #3, which coincidentally had the highest pressure. If you had included this pressure instead of simply tossing it, the Colts average would be 11.82, probably enough to make the 90% C.I's not overlap.

2. You are applying the "high gauge" assumption to the Colts balls and not the Patriots balls. I can tell this because the NE C.I. raised, while the IND C.I. did not. The implication here is that Anderson used a different gauge between measuring teams balls, contrary to what was reported: "Anderson is certain that he checked the footballs prior to the AFC Championship Game with one of the two gauges that he brought with him to Gillette Stadium" (pg 51).

3. this still relies on the Logo Gauge pre-game assumption, which both Wells and Exponent have ruled out. i have discussed this in the past and would be happy to do so again.

ETA: 4. I'm not sure two confidence intervals is the proper test for comparing if two sets of samples could be from the same population. Let me think about this one for a bit.

Yes, what to do with the transcription error ball? Strange it also happened to be the ball with the highest pressure (and the least change from pre-game measure). Maybe simple transcription... maybe a little sloppy penmanship and a 12.1 morphed into a 12.9. Maybe human error. I chose to ignore it because of the question marks. The report assumed a transcription error. I'm not sure that was the fairest assumption.

And I did make the high gauge assumption to one set of balls. If the people who measured at half time can switch gauges between teams, why couldn't Anderson have picked up a different gauge?

I understand why the report concluded that wasn't the case - since the measurements of both teams were consistent with the expected pressures submitted by each team. As some have mentioned, this could be explained by the preparation process. I'm not sure the report recognized that possibility.

Bottom line to me is that, with all the question marks, there is reasonable doubt with the PSI numbers alone (between a 0.3 and 0.7 delta?) The other factors (text messages, phone calls, disappearance of the balls) had to be the deciding factor in the report's conclusions.

 

[General Tso]

*

Every single accomplishment under this current regime is subject to LEGITIMATE doubt.

What could have been a dynasty of Winners is instead, a legacy of Cheaters.

And for those who pretend that Cheating is winning... there is no greater loser.

So if it could be shown that other SB winning teams broke the rules at some point during their title winning seasons, then they all get asterisks in your mind?

If it were as systematic, flagrant and at times very significant (ie filming), then yes. The Patriots are not a team caught cheating or trying to just bend rules. The Patriots are a team that has repeatedly cheated and repeatedly been caught - and then it happens again, as if they simply have neither regard nor respect for the game.

If Brady, Beli and the Pats don't respect their own game, their profession and franchise, why should anyone respect them - or their accomplishments*

Much better! The systemic part if what is so troubling. It really shows a sense of arrogance and entitlement that is extremely off-putting.

 

[Pots]

*

Every single accomplishment under this current regime is subject to LEGITIMATE doubt.

What could have been a dynasty of Winners is instead, a legacy of Cheaters.

And for those who pretend that Cheating is winning... there is no greater loser.

So if it could be shown that other SB winning teams broke the rules at some point during their title winning seasons, then they all get asterisks in your mind?

If it were as systematic, flagrant and at times very significant (ie filming), then yes. The Patriots are not a team caught cheating or trying to just bend rules. The Patriots are a team that has repeatedly cheated and repeatedly been caught - and then it happens again, as if they simply have neither regard nor respect for the game.

If Brady, Beli and the Pats don't respect their own game, their profession and franchise, why should anyone respect them - or their accomplishments*

Much better! The systemic part if what is so troubling. It really shows a sense of arrogance and entitlement that is extremely off-putting.

I'd hope all of those who are upset with the Pats* over their transgressions would be just as upset with any other team caught doing the same thing.

 

[General Tso]

*

Every single accomplishment under this current regime is subject to LEGITIMATE doubt.

What could have been a dynasty of Winners is instead, a legacy of Cheaters.

And for those who pretend that Cheating is winning... there is no greater loser.

So if it could be shown that other SB winning teams broke the rules at some point during their title winning seasons, then they all get asterisks in your mind?

If it were as systematic, flagrant and at times very significant (ie filming), then yes. The Patriots are not a team caught cheating or trying to just bend rules. The Patriots are a team that has repeatedly cheated and repeatedly been caught - and then it happens again, as if they simply have neither regard nor respect for the game.

If Brady, Beli and the Pats don't respect their own game, their profession and franchise, why should anyone respect them - or their accomplishments*

Much better! The systemic part if what is so troubling. It really shows a sense of arrogance and entitlement that is extremely off-putting.

I'd hope all of those who are upset with the Pats* over their transgressions would be just as upset with any other team caught doing the same thing.

Well, seeing as I was a Pats fan for over 40 years I'd say yes.

 

[LongDuckDong]

Again...what are the systemic issues? Openly filming in an unapproved area in 2007 and these footballs. Would just be easier to say "I hate the patriots so they should be punished"...

 

[Bayhawks]

Again...what are the systemic issues? Openly filming in an unapproved area in 2007 and these footballs. Would just be easier to say "I hate the patriots so they should be punished"...

If I'm not mistaken, they tried to sneak the wrong ball into a game at one point (2004, I think), they routinely play games with the injury report, and there is a widespread belief that there was more to the filming than was released. While this may/may not be true, the fact that the videotape evidence was destroyed is suspicious.

Those are just the things (off the top of my head) that we know about. I think many people believe that there were other things that they have "gotten away" with.

While it's possible that these are the only things they've done wrong and they just suck at cheating, IMO, it's more likely that there are other instances we aren't aware of.

Now, all that being said, none of these are huge deals, in and of themselves. But the amount of questionable situations plus the attitude of the Pats-"study the rule book," and the fact that they are the cream of the NFL crop over the last decade and a half lead for people to root against them, even in off the field situations like this one.

 

[Old Smiley]

The injury report stuff is bunk. That's Bill protecting his players. If you've got guys like Greg Williams saying, "Let's test that inside ACL" I'd be after my coach to be as vague as possible too.

Just because a bunch of gamblers want info doesn't mean it's the right thing to release it.

I'm from hockey country and "lower body" is all you're going to get, and rightly so.

 

[LongDuckDong]

The Wells report brought up the 2004 incident; so to say it's part of a pattern of behavior doesn't make a lot of sense, no one had ever heard of it until now.

I agree about the destroyed video but not sure how that proves a pattern of behavior.

Look, I am not going to waste anyone elses time on this - I just think stuff gets said by talking heads and becomes fact. I'd guess if BB found a loophole in a rule he'd exploit the hell out of it. So I can imagine pushing the line. And again and again.

 

[Todd Andrews]

Patriots are a terd

 

[JIslander]

Patriots are a terd

Classic denouement to this thread...

 

[moleculo]

The problem with the text messages by themselves is that they don't implicate Brady as anything other than someone pissed if the balls were too inflated.

Again, I say this as someone who is a hardcore Pats fan but isn't remotely comfortable with them cheating. I thought Spygate was nonsense, and always will. I think the Saints bounty thing was ridiculous. I think the Dolphins investigation was ridiculous. I think Goodell's approach to discipline is incompetent. And I believe he does it that way because his 32 bosses tell him to.

Now back to the deflation issue:

I have a major issue with the league not retracting the info in the Chris Mortenson report, and it makes me believe the league wanted to control the dialogue on that issue.

I don't believe that the evidence of deflation based on the statistical data would hold up in a court of law because of the issues with the gauges.

I think if Wells had been told "I want the Patriots to come out of here clean" by Goodell, he would have issued a report that said no conclusive evidence exists that there was deflation in the Indy game, nor conclusive evidence that Brady, Belichick, or anyone besides McNally and Jastremski participated in anything resembling ball pressure manipulation.

Goodell could easily have swept it under the rug and said that he was tightening procedures so no one could question anything, but that there was no impact on game integrity. For reasons I legitimately don't understand, he never did.

I will say this, if evidence comes out that shows Brady, Belichick, or anyone else in power directed employees to mess with balls after approved, I will be mortified and have no use for it. I think it shows a blatant disrespect for fair play and I don't like it.

But as a Patriots fan, right now the evidence chain seems to be

• The balls may have been messed with based on statistical assumptions that assume certain things. If you make other assumptions, the statistical data supports the possibility that they weren't. Wells was paid to give his opinion on those assumptions, and his assumption was the one that theorized messing with the balls.
• The league never retracted a clearly inaccurate report which made the Patriots look FAR more guilty than they actually were, results which would leave no doubt as to their guilt. Which does bring question as what bias Wells had when he made the assumptions in point one.
• McNally went missing with the balls for enough time to perhaps mess with the balls.
• McNally and Jastremski joked often about messing with the balls because Brady had issue when they were too inflated.
• Most involved in football believe that if Brady didn't authorize it, there's no way a ballboy would have messed with the balls.

I can ABSOLUTELY see that if you look at it believing the Patriots did wrong, that you can fit the data to it. My issue is that if you want to believe that they didn't (or at least Brady, Belichick, etc didn't order anything), you have no direct evidence that they ordered anything, and the indirect evidence assumes that the balls were messed with, which is at least possibly untrue depending on assumptions you made.

So I leave it at this - if you believe because of Spygate or because Belichick is a meanie that the Patriots are guilty until proven innocent, the evidence does not support innocence. It just doesn't support absolute guilt. If you believe they are innocent until proven guilty, then it certainly doesn't get you all the way to guilt at least as far as Brady, Belichick, et al.

And so the league takes the easy way out under a half assed "more probable than not" threshold that I bet every single one of us who would be terrified to be judged under if we were defendants in court or our loved ones were, and punishes Brady.

If Goodell had docked the Patriots the picks and the fine and not touched Brady, it would have been very difficult for me to argue there wasn't an institutional control issue. You have McNally and the balls going missing right before the AFC championship game, balls that performed differently than the Colts balls, for reasons that we aren't 100% sure about (maybe 70-80% depending again on what standpoint you view it from).

But Brady...you screw with an all time great's reputation without any direct evidence of his guilt besides "well, we think it happened, even though we cant be sure, and if it did, it only would have if Brady knew, just because that's how it works, even though there's no evidence he actually did"...yeah, I think Patriots fans have the right to at least argue on Brady's behalf. I can understand why guys like Moleculo argue as they do because there's a path to his feelings that is "more probable".

FTR, you may or may not have noticed that I make no claims WRT Brady's role here. That gets into he said/she said stuff, interpreting text messages, and all of that. That's not something that I'm interested in.

Personally, I do think he's getting railroaded. I also would point to Matt Prater getting a 4 game suspension for having a beer at home, or Ray Rice missing an entire season for a misdemeanor charge. I don't believe that anyone should be "above the law", and when you guys talk about "an all time great" and how concerned you are for his reputation, you are basically saying you think Brady should be treated differently than the rank and file of NFL players...that's something I do have a problem with. Basically, I say Brady is getting screwed...join the club.

 

[moleculo]

We are talking about tools that are nearly identical in appearance, differing only by the presence of one logo. Both tools were tested and found to be repeatable within roughly +/-0.1 psi. One tool was out of calibration by roughly 0.4 psi, but beyond that, their performance is nearly indistinguishable.

moleculo - I respect most of your opinions on this issue, but I think you need to revisit the logos. Look at the pictures on pages 174-176. They are very different looking, particularly the needles. One is twice as long as the other and bent at a pretty severe angle. Very memorable in my opinion. Anderson's recollection of using the logo gauge pregame is the biggest hole in the report, and the one that continues to bother me.

Have a look at my last post.

Are you ready to jump through the hoops you have to jump through to conclude the Logo gauge was used pregame?

If you look purely at the Pats balls, the evidence in the Wells Report actually supports that the logo gauge was used during pregame inspection:- The Pats rubbing process before inspection is shown by Exponent to raise the psi by 0.7. (Page 34)

- The Pats calibrate the balls to 12.5 right after the rubbing process.

- The rubbing process psi increase wears off after 30 minutes and the psi drops 0.7.

- The balls are stored in the locker room for about an hour prior to pregame inspection by refs.

- Under this scenario of events, when using a proper gauge during pregame inspection the Pats balls should be anywhere between 0.3 to 0.6 off from the 12.5 the Pats calibrated to(if we assume that the time between rubbing and the Pats gauging is about 10 minutes). In other words, the Pats balls should measure about 12.1 during pregame inspection on a proper gauge.

- If the logo gauge was used pregame, it would show the Pats balls at about 12.5

- If the non-logo gauge was used pregame, it would show the Pats balls at 12.1.

The evidence contained within a Exponent's own report seems to prove the logo gauge was used.

Now as respects the Colts balls, I have no idea what process they use and when they calibrate their balls to 13.0.

I don't have time to pull up the report right now, but I'm pretty confident the rubbing and ball prep stuff all happens days/weeks before gameday.

On gameday, the equipment manager just makes final inflation adjustments to the balls, before laying them out for Brady to select from.

That's for the regular balls. The K-balls are first opened on gameday, and all the prep happens hours before kickoff.

Nope. The gloving process that Exponent says raises the psi level was all done on gameday. From page 49 and 50 of the Wells Report:

Jastremski told us that he decided to prepare another full set of game balls, and that, by mid-Sunday morning, he had removed the initial preservative from 24 new footballs, brushed them and treated them with dirt. He and other members of the equipment staff then gloved the footballs, spending between 7 and 15 minutes vigorously rubbing each ball. According to Brady, this created a set of game balls where most of the tack on the ball ended up coming from the leather receiver gloves. Jastremski told us that he set the pressure level to 12.6 psi after each ball was gloved and then placed the ball on a trunk in the equipment room for Brady to review.

Once again, this in my mind seems to prove that the logo gauge was used pregame. The Pats calibrated their ball to 12.6 right after doing the comprehensive rubbing and ball prep that the Exponent Report acknowledges raises the psi level by as much as 0.7. So if they were gauged by the Pats 5 to 10 minutes after the rubbing process the natural deflation would have been something slightly less than 0.7 - let's say 0.4. So when the pregame inspection was done by the refs the balls would have been at around 12.2. If Anderson uses the logo gauge the psi appears to be 12.5 or 12.6 because we know that gauge reads high by 0.3 to 0.4. Oh, and coincidentally, this is the gauge the ref remembers using.

So I think the evidence pretty clearly shows that the logo gauge was used pregame, and that the balls were at 12.5 as Anderson recollects. When the same logo gauge is used by Prioleau at halftime the average psi of the 11 Pats balls is 11.49. The Exponent Report predicts that a ball inflated to 12.5, with the exact atmospheric conditions as existed that night, would naturally deflate to a range of 11.32 - 11.52. And how about the 12th ball - the one intercepted by the Colts? That ball was measured 3 separate times on the sidelines and guess what the average was? 11.52 - almost identical to the 11.49 average of the 11 Pats balls measured at halftime using the logo gauge. And guess what gauge was used to measure the intercepted ball? It was the Patriot's gauge that was used to calibrate the balls pregame to 12.5!

...

that's an interesting theory.

 

[GoBirds]

We are talking about tools that are nearly identical in appearance, differing only by the presence of one logo. Both tools were tested and found to be repeatable within roughly +/-0.1 psi. One tool was out of calibration by roughly 0.4 psi, but beyond that, their performance is nearly indistinguishable.

moleculo - I respect most of your opinions on this issue, but I think you need to revisit the logos. Look at the pictures on pages 174-176. They are very different looking, particularly the needles. One is twice as long as the other and bent at a pretty severe angle. Very memorable in my opinion. Anderson's recollection of using the logo gauge pregame is the biggest hole in the report, and the one that continues to bother me.

Have a look at my last post.

Are you ready to jump through the hoops you have to jump through to conclude the Logo gauge was used pregame?

If you look purely at the Pats balls, the evidence in the Wells Report actually supports that the logo gauge was used during pregame inspection:- The Pats rubbing process before inspection is shown by Exponent to raise the psi by 0.7. (Page 34)

- The Pats calibrate the balls to 12.5 right after the rubbing process.

- The rubbing process psi increase wears off after 30 minutes and the psi drops 0.7.

- The balls are stored in the locker room for about an hour prior to pregame inspection by refs.

- Under this scenario of events, when using a proper gauge during pregame inspection the Pats balls should be anywhere between 0.3 to 0.6 off from the 12.5 the Pats calibrated to(if we assume that the time between rubbing and the Pats gauging is about 10 minutes). In other words, the Pats balls should measure about 12.1 during pregame inspection on a proper gauge.

- If the logo gauge was used pregame, it would show the Pats balls at about 12.5

- If the non-logo gauge was used pregame, it would show the Pats balls at 12.1.

The evidence contained within a Exponent's own report seems to prove the logo gauge was used.

Now as respects the Colts balls, I have no idea what process they use and when they calibrate their balls to 13.0.

I don't have time to pull up the report right now, but I'm pretty confident the rubbing and ball prep stuff all happens days/weeks before gameday.

On gameday, the equipment manager just makes final inflation adjustments to the balls, before laying them out for Brady to select from.

That's for the regular balls. The K-balls are first opened on gameday, and all the prep happens hours before kickoff.

Nope. The gloving process that Exponent says raises the psi level was all done on gameday. From page 49 and 50 of the Wells Report:

Jastremski told us that he decided to prepare another full set of game balls, and that, by mid-Sunday morning, he had removed the initial preservative from 24 new footballs, brushed them and treated them with dirt. He and other members of the equipment staff then gloved the footballs, spending between 7 and 15 minutes vigorously rubbing each ball. According to Brady, this created a set of game balls where most of the tack on the ball ended up coming from the leather receiver gloves. Jastremski told us that he set the pressure level to 12.6 psi after each ball was gloved and then placed the ball on a trunk in the equipment room for Brady to review.

Once again, this in my mind seems to prove that the logo gauge was used pregame. The Pats calibrated their ball to 12.6 right after doing the comprehensive rubbing and ball prep that the Exponent Report acknowledges raises the psi level by as much as 0.7. So if they were gauged by the Pats 5 to 10 minutes after the rubbing process the natural deflation would have been something slightly less than 0.7 - let's say 0.4. So when the pregame inspection was done by the refs the balls would have been at around 12.2. If Anderson uses the logo gauge the psi appears to be 12.5 or 12.6 because we know that gauge reads high by 0.3 to 0.4. Oh, and coincidentally, this is the gauge the ref remembers using.

So I think the evidence pretty clearly shows that the logo gauge was used pregame, and that the balls were at 12.5 as Anderson recollects. When the same logo gauge is used by Prioleau at halftime the average psi of the 11 Pats balls is 11.49. The Exponent Report predicts that a ball inflated to 12.5, with the exact atmospheric conditions as existed that night, would naturally deflate to a range of 11.32 - 11.52. And how about the 12th ball - the one intercepted by the Colts? That ball was measured 3 separate times on the sidelines and guess what the average was? 11.52 - almost identical to the 11.49 average of the 11 Pats balls measured at halftime using the logo gauge. And guess what gauge was used to measure the intercepted ball? It was the Patriot's gauge that was used to calibrate the balls pregame to 12.5!

The only fly in the ointment here is the Colts balls, and to be honest - I'm not sure they can ever serve as an effective control group because:

a) we don't know the details of the Colts ball prep and exactly at what point in the process they calibrated their balls to 13.0.

b) only 4 balls were measured at the half.

Sorry guys, but going off the evidence in the Wells Report I have to conclude that the logo gauge was used pregame, and if that assumption is made it is extremely hard to to prove that anything other than natural deflation occurred. The evidence proves it, and I'm looking at it objectively.

Once again, I do think the Pats were involved in a ball tampering program as evidenced by the text messages. And who knows, maybe McNally did deflate a few of those balls in the men's room. But there wasn't wholesale deflation going on, or if there was, it can't be proven. At least not in that game.

And this has always made sense to me. It always seemed a stretch to me that McNally would have had the opportunity and the balls (pun intended) to deflate footballs during an AFCCG when the refs were on notice and paying attention. I honestly don't think anything happened here, and if it did, it was probably a situation where McNally knew the heat was on, didn't have much time, and probably only deflated a few balls a little bit.

But it doesn't really matter in the sense that I still think the main crux of the Wells Report is that it effectively found evidence of a pattern of deflation dating back at least a year. The text messages for me are incontrovertible. It's just ironic how they were caught. It's a like a group of bank robbers get busted, but the actual bank robbery they get busted for wasn't one of the banks they robbed. Sometimes cops frame a guilty man. That's not precisely the right analogy, but it kind of gets to what happened here.

In the end, justice is served in my opinion. But everyone comes out of it looking dirty.

OMG again.........I'm disappointed in you.

 

[espnespn]

This is what I think will ultimately happen with the Brady appeal: Goodell declares there isn't enough evidence that the Patriots were deflating, but suspends Brady 1-2 games for obstruction only.

Then we'll have a very interesting scenario where Brady, Belichick, and Kraft were cleared of deflating, but the Patriots organization was fined/lost draft picks.

Patriots Homers will say that there was no cheating, and that Kraft would have won an appeal, if there were an appeals process for the owner like there was for Brady. Salty Haters will say that there was cheating, but that Goodell suspended Brady for obstruction only, as part of a deal with Kraft.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Then we'll have a very interesting scenario where Brady, Belichick, and Kraft were cleared of deflating, but the Patriots organization was fined/lost draft picks.

He already admitted and accepted guilt and the team was penalized as such. Reality awaits you.

 

[Bayhawks]

This is what I think will ultimately happen with the Brady appeal: Goodell declares there isn't enough evidence that the Patriots were deflating, but suspends Brady 1-2 games for obstruction only.

Then we'll have a very interesting scenario where Brady, Belichick, and Kraft were cleared of deflating, but the Patriots organization was fined/lost draft picks.

Patriots Homers will say that there was no cheating, and that Kraft would have won an appeal, if there were an appeals process for the owner like there was for Brady. Salty Haters will say that there was cheating, but that Goodell suspended Brady for obstruction only, as part of a deal with Kraft.

Highly doubt it will play out this way. I do expect the Brady suspension to get reduced but, IMO, there's virtually no chance that Goodell comes out and says "there isn't enough evidence that the Patriots were deflating footballs" or anything along those lines. Even if he thought this, he wouldn't say it publicly.

Now, that won't stop Patriot fan-boys from saying "Goodell reduced the suspension, that means he knows the Patritots weren't cheating. They hate us because they ain't us."

 

[matuski]

The leading thread at FBG is a 225 page reality drama about air pressure.

At least when I walk through the living room and my wife is watching the Kardashians I get to see some hot chicks now and then.

 

[Burl]

The leading thread at FBG is a 225 page reality drama about air pressure.

At least when I walk through the living room and my wife is watching the Kardashians I get to see some hot chicks now and then.

I dunno....I bet General Tso looks pretty good in a bikini?

 

[charlie87168]

Its really asinine when you think about how stupid this is.

 

[Baloney Sandwich]

The leading thread at FBG is a 225 page reality drama about air pressure.

At least when I walk through the living room and my wife is watching the Kardashians I get to see some hot chicks now and then.

http://www.angeliafashion.com/gisele-bundchen-former-victorias-secret-angel-sexiest/

 

[General Tso]

The leading thread at FBG is a 225 page reality drama about air pressure.

At least when I walk through the living room and my wife is watching the Kardashians I get to see some hot chicks now and then.

I dunno....I bet General Tso looks pretty good in a bikini?

Well I do seem to be developing a nice set of middle aged man boobs.

 

[JIslander]

The leading thread at FBG is a 225 page reality drama about air pressure.

At least when I walk through the living room and my wife is watching the Kardashians I get to see some hot chicks now and then.

I dunno....I bet General Tso looks pretty good in a bikini?

Well I do seem to be developing a nice set of middle aged man boobs.

TMI

 

[espnespn]

Then we'll have a very interesting scenario where Brady, Belichick, and Kraft were cleared of deflating, but the Patriots organization was fined/lost draft picks.

He already admitted and accepted guilt and the team was penalized as such. Reality awaits you.

Um, where does Kraft admit guilt? Feel free to show where he said that? Kraft actually says he disagrees.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12913741/robert-kraft-says-new-england-patriots-appeal-deflategate-punishment

"Although I might disagree what is decided, I do have respect for [commissioner Roger Goodell] and believe that he's doing what he perceives to be in the best interests of [all 32 teams]," Kraft said, while speaking to the media at the NFL owners meetings. "So in that spirit, I don't want to continue the rhetoric that's gone on for the last four months.

"I'm going to accept, reluctantly, what he has given to us and not continue this dialogue and rhetoric. We won't appeal."

 

[espnespn]

This is what I think will ultimately happen with the Brady appeal: Goodell declares there isn't enough evidence that the Patriots were deflating, but suspends Brady 1-2 games for obstruction only.

Then we'll have a very interesting scenario where Brady, Belichick, and Kraft were cleared of deflating, but the Patriots organization was fined/lost draft picks.

Patriots Homers will say that there was no cheating, and that Kraft would have won an appeal, if there were an appeals process for the owner like there was for Brady. Salty Haters will say that there was cheating, but that Goodell suspended Brady for obstruction only, as part of a deal with Kraft.

Highly doubt it will play out this way. I do expect the Brady suspension to get reduced but, IMO, there's virtually no chance that Goodell comes out and says "there isn't enough evidence that the Patriots were deflating footballs" or anything along those lines. Even if he thought this, he wouldn't say it publicly.

Now, that won't stop Patriot fan-boys from saying "Goodell reduced the suspension, that means he knows the Patritots weren't cheating. They hate us because they ain't us."

I guess we'll have to see how Brady's appeal plays out. At least a few sports pundits have said that Brady won't stop appealing unless the suspension is specifically for obstruction only. If that is really Brady's position, then it'll be interesting to see what Goodell does.

 

[Bayhawks]

This is what I think will ultimately happen with the Brady appeal: Goodell declares there isn't enough evidence that the Patriots were deflating, but suspends Brady 1-2 games for obstruction only.

Then we'll have a very interesting scenario where Brady, Belichick, and Kraft were cleared of deflating, but the Patriots organization was fined/lost draft picks.

Patriots Homers will say that there was no cheating, and that Kraft would have won an appeal, if there were an appeals process for the owner like there was for Brady. Salty Haters will say that there was cheating, but that Goodell suspended Brady for obstruction only, as part of a deal with Kraft.

Highly doubt it will play out this way. I do expect the Brady suspension to get reduced but, IMO, there's virtually no chance that Goodell comes out and says "there isn't enough evidence that the Patriots were deflating footballs" or anything along those lines. Even if he thought this, he wouldn't say it publicly.

Now, that won't stop Patriot fan-boys from saying "Goodell reduced the suspension, that means he knows the Patritots weren't cheating. They hate us because they ain't us."

I guess we'll have to see how Brady's appeal plays out. At least a few sports pundits have said that Brady won't stop appealing unless the suspension is specifically for obstruction only. If that is really Brady's position, then it'll be interesting to see what Goodell does.

First I've heard of this. Any links?

He only gets 1 appeal. He could try to go the lawsuit route, but that wouldn't technically be an "appeal."

I'm not sure that would be in the best interest of the Patriots, either.

Let's assume Brady's suspension is upheld. So, he decides to go the legal route, and manages to get an injunction, preventing the NFL from enforcing his suspension until after the issue has been heard/settled in court. If the court case doesn't get heard until December (I have no idea of the timetable for a federal lawsuit, which I would assume this would have to be). It's possible that Brady misses the last 4 games of the season, when the Pats might be fighting for a playoff spot/playoff seeding, as opposed to the 1st 4. Or even worse, his court case isn't resolved until after 12/13. If that's the case, and the 4 game suspension is upheld, he misses the last 3 games of the 2015 season, and the 1st game of the 2016 season & isn't eligible for the playoffs (is that correct)?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Then we'll have a very interesting scenario where Brady, Belichick, and Kraft were cleared of deflating, but the Patriots organization was fined/lost draft picks.

He already admitted and accepted guilt and the team was penalized as such. Reality awaits you.

Um, where does Kraft admit guilt? Feel free to show where he said that? Kraft actually says he disagrees.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12913741/robert-kraft-says-new-england-patriots-appeal-deflategate-punishment

"Although I might disagree what is decided, I do have respect for [commissioner Roger Goodell] and believe that he's doing what he perceives to be in the best interests of [all 32 teams]," Kraft said, while speaking to the media at the NFL owners meetings. "So in that spirit, I don't want to continue the rhetoric that's gone on for the last four months.

"I'm going to accept, reluctantly, what he has given to us and not continue this dialogue and rhetoric. We won't appeal."

WORDS. That's nothing more then WORDS. His ACTIONS are what matters.

You do understand that right?

 

[Anarchy99]

Then we'll have a very interesting scenario where Brady, Belichick, and Kraft were cleared of deflating, but the Patriots organization was fined/lost draft picks.

He already admitted and accepted guilt and the team was penalized as such. Reality awaits you.

Um, where does Kraft admit guilt? Feel free to show where he said that? Kraft actually says he disagrees.

http://espn.go.com/boston/nfl/story/_/id/12913741/robert-kraft-says-new-england-patriots-appeal-deflategate-punishment



"Although I might disagree what is decided, I do have respect for [commissioner Roger Goodell] and believe that he's doing what he perceives to be in the best interests of [all 32 teams]," Kraft said, while speaking to the media at the NFL owners meetings. "So in that spirit, I don't want to continue the rhetoric that's gone on for the last four months.

"I'm going to accept, reluctantly, what he has given to us and not continue this dialogue and rhetoric. We won't appeal."

WORDS. That's nothing more then WORDS. His ACTIONS are what matters.

You do understand that right?

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?Teams really don't haveuch recourse to appeal as they are not subject to a collectively bargained appeal. And other than suing the league (which also was a lost cause), they had no options.

All they could have done was spend millions of dollars and drag things out with the same outcome.

The league didn't break any laws, so what could NE have won on? The league filled its own policies, so the Pats could only whine saying the process was unfair. Wah wah wah.

So no, Kraft did not admit guilt by accepting a penalty he could not fight against

 

[Run It Up]

But muh narrative.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

 

[davearm]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

 

[Anarchy99]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

I am still waiting to hear what Kraft's great options were to continue to fight the TEAM penalties. Unlike players, teams don't have great options to appeal and they can't go to arbitration. And as far as going to court, they would have to prove all of the following: intent, malice, and that the league broke the law by doing what they did to NE. From every legal expert I have seen, Kraft had no chance of winning. Zero. None. But he could have shelled out $25 million to try . . . and would still have lost.

So on that list of things to prove . . .

Did the league intentionally go out of their way to harm the Patriots above and beyond the processes and procedures within the NFL bylaws (I would say no)?

Did the league maliciously do what they did and purposely try to embarrass or defame the Patriots and intentionally falsify information or lie (I would say no)?

Did the league break the laws either criminally or within the scope of accepted business practices (I would say no)?

So please explain where this great case was and clear cut legal battle was that would get the Patriots draft picks back and fines eliminated?

 

[JIslander]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

I am still waiting to hear what Kraft's great options were to continue to fight the TEAM penalties. Unlike players, teams don't have great options to appeal and they can't go to arbitration. And as far as going to court, they would have to prove all of the following: intent, malice, and that the league broke the law by doing what they did to NE. From every legal expert I have seen, Kraft had no chance of winning. Zero. None. But he could have shelled out $25 million to try . . . and would still have lost.

So on that list of things to prove . . .

Did the league intentionally go out of their way to harm the Patriots above and beyond the processes and procedures within the NFL bylaws (I would say no)?

Did the league maliciously do what they did and purposely try to embarrass or defame the Patriots and intentionally falsify information or lie (I would say no)?

Did the league break the laws either criminally or within the scope of accepted business practices (I would say no)?

So please explain where this great case was and clear cut legal battle was that would get the Patriots draft picks back and fines eliminated?

It was supposed to come right after Kraft got the apology he demanded.

So basically, the NFL didn't do anything wrong here except that they picked on the Patriots under their own rules which can't be challenged. Is that your point?

 

[Burl]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

I am still waiting to hear what Kraft's great options were to continue to fight the TEAM penalties. Unlike players, teams don't have great options to appeal and they can't go to arbitration. And as far as going to court, they would have to prove all of the following: intent, malice, and that the league broke the law by doing what they did to NE. From every legal expert I have seen, Kraft had no chance of winning. Zero. None. But he could have shelled out $25 million to try . . . and would still have lost.

So on that list of things to prove . . .

Did the league intentionally go out of their way to harm the Patriots above and beyond the processes and procedures within the NFL bylaws (I would say no)?

Did the league maliciously do what they did and purposely try to embarrass or defame the Patriots and intentionally falsify information or lie (I would say no)?

Did the league break the laws either criminally or within the scope of accepted business practices (I would say no)?

So please explain where this great case was and clear cut legal battle was that would get the Patriots draft picks back and fines eliminated?

So your argument for the Pats not admitting their guilt is to say the league did nothing wrong? If they did nothing wrong, then isn't it inherently all considered to be right, meaning they were guilty?

 

[davearm]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

Not accept the penalty? LOL what?

The Pats should have declined it, like a holding call?

 

[Carter_Can_Fly]

And you understand he had no option but to cave, right?

FALSE.

What were the other options for Kraft to consider?

Not accept the penalty and guilt.

But he accepted the guilt even back 6 months ago... until his fan base got their panties in a wad recently. Then his WORDS changed. But not the acceptance of guilt.

Not accept the penalty? LOL what?

The Pats should have declined it, like a holding call?

Here we go again. Most Pats fans wanted to believe the Pats were innocent. Kraft initially took this stance of innocence and he quickly changed his mind after a sit down with Goodell as it appears the Pats are not innocent in this situation. So what is the next play. Kraft to try and save face plays the I'm not happy about it but we are going to accept the league's punishment. What happens next for the Pats fans....

We now have Pats fans changing how they have to defend their team. Pats fans started out like Kraft and said this is ridiculous and Brady and the Pats are innocent. When Kraft came out and accepted the punishment (admitting his team was not completely innocent in this matter) it had many Pats fans reeling with what to do next. It seems as this is now becoming the popular response: well since Kraft took the punishment he obviously did because he had no chance to win. They now are actually trying to spin this as a positive for Kraft and saying what a stand up guy he is for thinking of the league first and accepting this punishment.

This whole situation is a soap opera and it is really quite comical from an outsider looking in. Seeing Pats fans squirm to try and defend their team as opposed to accepting that they were guilty is funny. If Kraft believes they were innocent he does not take this massive punishment just to be a stand up guy for the league. That is ridiculous on so many levels.