If the NFLPA argues that Wells didnt prove (he didn't have to, BTW) Brady was generally aware & he didn't have direct evidence, that opens the NFL up to subpoenaing the text records, if I'm not mistaken. Besides, if Brady challenges the punishment, there are a number of records the NFL can subpoena the Text records. It was discussed, from a legal standpoint, in this thread, numerous times. NE fans want to pretend Brady can use the courts, but not have to give up his phone records, but life legally, they are probably wrong.
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Patriots being investigated after Colts game (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter HobbesAB
- Start date
As noted, Favre wasn't accused of cheating; further more, this punishment for Brady is for BOTH cheating AND refusal to cooperate.
Baloney Sandwich
Footballguy
Yeah, I'm not a lawyer so I don't claim to know exactly what would happen but my interpretation of the above argument I posted is that the NFLPA would argue general awareness has no legal merit. That is different than arguing Tom didn't have general awareness (which would be disputing what is in the Wells Report). I guess we will find out if/when it goes to court.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
So, what do you figure? Five PM eastern? Six?
AngryPatriot
Footballguy
Why do you say that? Don't be a tool like the NFL/ They don't even have the class and professionalism to just come out with their stupid decision- or say when it will be announced. Goodell and friends regulate the NFL but who regulates them? Big problem. The NFL is a tyrannical dictatorship which seems to stop at nothing to "protect" their one sided and distorted, false view of the "integrity of the game", Tough to do when you have very little integrity. Never has a thing so minor been given such importance. Brady has never cheated at football but the haters, which obviously now includes the higher ups in the NFL, have milked some a few footballs to try to tarnish the image of the best QB to ever play the game. It is so PATHETIC that it's off the charts. lol Yet here we are, CHAMPS, with correctly inflated footballs!! LOL!
BEAUTIFUL! SUCK IT.
BEAUTIFUL! SUCK IT.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
I was just getting at how late Friday is usually when you release info that could have blowback when you're governing out of "A Boys First Book of Message Control"
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Godsbrother
Footballguy
Oh what the hell .. I'll bite.
The NFLPA has no one to blame but themselves. They agreed to this system during the last CBA. The only team that did not vote in favor of the CBA was the Steelers for this very reason -- they did not feel that the commissioner should have the power to review the appeals. Instead they wanted an independent arbitrator to hear appeals.
So I have a hard time when players and the union start crying about the appeal process. They agreed on it now live with it and keep the courts out of it.
Not a lawyer either, but the person who wrote this article (like many others) didn't bother to do any research.
If Brady was generally aware of this rule breaking, then repeatedly denied it, lied about it, and interfered with the NFL investigation, he is subject to punishment. That is clear as day in the CBA and personal conduct policies. And if they NFLPA doesn't refute that he was generally aware, only argues that it has no legal merit, then they are essentially admitting that he was aware. And, make no mistake, (if he was aware), he did deny, lie, and interfere with the investigation.
The only way they could legally get around the Wells report (because it is what the punishment was based on) is by challenging it, and if they do that, the text records become fair game.
The CBA and/or conduct policy says Goodell gets to decide the punishment AND hear the appeal. Brady and the NFLPA agreed to that when they signed it. They don't have much legal ground to challenge that.
The CBA and/or conduct policy allows Goodell to determine the punishment for failure to cooperate AND for this rule infraction. Just because it sets a minimum punishment doesn't restrict Goodell to that minimum.
I don't see how the NFLPA can win a legal battle without challenging the Wells report, and (again) that opens up the text records.
IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
Road Warriors
Footballguy
circular argument. If he's being punished for not cooperating, this is the precedent for that. If he's being punished for cheating, the NFLPA arguments that the violation is a club violation and not a player violation is in play. Can't have both.
sho nuff
Footballguy
Not cooperating with a croc pic scandal =/ not cooperating with altering balls after inspection scandal.
Pretty simple...the two situations are different.
And he was punished for more than just not cooperating.
The NFLPA can argue that...but they can also be quite wrong.
And yes...when the violation is said to involve both club personnel, and a player...it can be both.
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
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Old Smiley
Footballguy
Albert Breer @AlbertBreer 3h3 hours ago
Per source, highly unlikely a Tom Brady decision comes today. So we're on to next week.
Connivers gonna connive
Per source, highly unlikely a Tom Brady decision comes today. So we're on to next week.
Connivers gonna connive
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Which relatively successful QB shor nuff recently said the following?
“‘I like to push the limit to how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do and see if the officials take air out of it,'”
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/20/aaron-rodgers-likes-his-footballs-overinflated/
“‘I like to push the limit to how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do and see if the officials take air out of it,'”
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/20/aaron-rodgers-likes-his-footballs-overinflated/
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Which player got a real "Thrill" bragging about his team cheating in his book?
Most fans don’t know it, but before the game we would doctor the footballs that would be used. Until the season of 2000 it was up to the home team to provide twenty-four
game balls to the officials for each game. A brand-new NFL football straight from the factory is not easy to throw or catch. It’s rock hard and very slippery. So in the
privacy of the locker room before the game, players would take the footballs and rub them and scrub them to remove the glaze, or deflate them, then pump them up with air
real big to stretch the leather. On some teams the kickers would put them through a cycle in the dryer. Some teams did this, but naturally not the Steelers, because we
were righteous folk who would never stretch the rules, and when these other teams—not the Steelers—were finished, they would put them back in the plastic wrapping and
right back in the box. Some teams—who were not the Steelers—after the officials had checked and approved the game balls, would let out a couple of pound of air to make it
easier for the quarterback to grip it. A little less air would make the ball spongier. It was what might be called a perceived advantage-both teams played with the same
ball.
Like him better than the rapist though............
Most fans don’t know it, but before the game we would doctor the footballs that would be used. Until the season of 2000 it was up to the home team to provide twenty-four
game balls to the officials for each game. A brand-new NFL football straight from the factory is not easy to throw or catch. It’s rock hard and very slippery. So in the
privacy of the locker room before the game, players would take the footballs and rub them and scrub them to remove the glaze, or deflate them, then pump them up with air
real big to stretch the leather. On some teams the kickers would put them through a cycle in the dryer. Some teams did this, but naturally not the Steelers, because we
were righteous folk who would never stretch the rules, and when these other teams—not the Steelers—were finished, they would put them back in the plastic wrapping and
right back in the box. Some teams—who were not the Steelers—after the officials had checked and approved the game balls, would let out a couple of pound of air to make it
easier for the quarterback to grip it. A little less air would make the ball spongier. It was what might be called a perceived advantage-both teams played with the same
ball.
Like him better than the rapist though............
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
In the 1990s, the Broncos won Super Bowl trophies in 1997 and 1998 with the assistance of salary-cap violations from 1996 through 1998. Denver eventually lost a third-
round pick, paid a whopping $950,000 fine, and a still-unnamed agent and a player donated $100,000 to charity. Does anyone ever say those two Lombardis are tarnished?
Have the Broncos won anything since they were caught cheating during there 2 super bowl wins?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/04/if-the-patriots-cheated-theyre-hardly-alone/
round pick, paid a whopping $950,000 fine, and a still-unnamed agent and a player donated $100,000 to charity. Does anyone ever say those two Lombardis are tarnished?
Have the Broncos won anything since they were caught cheating during there 2 super bowl wins?
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/04/if-the-patriots-cheated-theyre-hardly-alone/
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
Where are those darn hypocrisy police when you need them?
Jerry Rice admits to cheating, says everyone did it, he and the Niners cheated while winning 3 super bowl wins
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/07/jerry-rice-admits-to-cheating-says-everyone-did-it/
Jerry Rice admits to cheating, says everyone did it, he and the Niners cheated while winning 3 super bowl wins
http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/02/07/jerry-rice-admits-to-cheating-says-everyone-did-it/
sho nuff
Footballguy
Did he alter them after inspection?
Been over this...many times in this thread.
Or did you think you were the first to bring Rodgers' comments up in a pitiful attempt to defend Tom Brady.
moleculo
Footballguy
Why stop there?
McDaniels, who was also on the Patriots staff punished for spygate, was party to two separate cheating orginizations. He was subsequently hired by the Patriots, thereby demonstrating the Patriots do not value integrety. Is it any doubt the Patriots don't really care about bending a rule here, tampering with equipment there?
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BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
AngryPatriot
Footballguy
The Patriots are the best and model franchise in the NFL the last 15 years, that is not in question. What bothers me is why Kraft didn't fight the NFL ruling until is was over turned. A first rd. pick is HUGE. Kraft just gave away a 1st rd. pick! (and a million dollars, whatever). Why did he do that, when his star player is fighting for justice?
BigSteelThrill
Footballguy
skinsrule05
Footballguy
Do you really have to ask that. Why would a person willingly accept the largest punishment ever for something they were accused of doing? I am sure you can figure that out.
moleculo
Footballguy
That's a tough claim, given the fact that Kraft did not fire those responsible the first time they were caught cheating, and he rehired a coach punished for cheating with another franchise.Seems to me that Kraft is more likely than not to turn a blind eye towards following the rules. I'm not sure I would claim that is a mark of a "model franchise".
He played the hand he was dealt. Going to war with 31 other owners and Goodell wasn't going to turn out well for anyone.
I wouldn't be surprised if "Patriots camp" had a sit down and determined the best way to fight this is through Brady anyhow. Serious observers seem to think his day in court will go well.
(EDIT: An oldie but a goodie: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSYXmFeeTPs&list=FL2EFKzqfzZ9F9Rtg85G0D0Q&index=6)
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IvanKaramazov
Footballguy
NE_REVIVAL
Footballguy
We don't know if the packers altered the balls after the fact, though I wonder what would be found if the nfl went back a year and combed thru the Packers txt messages. I bet it is more probable than not some interesting inflate messages would be found.
People can argue that Rodgers and the packers cheating wasn't as bad as NEs alleged offense (I agree), but people can't argue it wasn't cheating; it is. There is nothing ambiguous about "even go over what they allow you to do and see if the officials take air out of it, it is cheating. They obviously played some games with over inflated balls and just because the ref missed it doesn't mean it wasn't cheating it was. If they put helium in the ball and the refs missed it, would that not be cheating? That Rodgers and the Packers cheated isn't open to debate, they admitted it. The only thing open to debate is the level of cheating in comparison to the allegations against Brady and NE.
Packer fans may not like hearing their beloved Rodgers is a cheater but we know for a fact he is since he bragged about it. The biggest difference imho is Rodgers and the packers haven't been nearly as successful as NE has over the last 15 years so no one cares. Several posters are here primarily because they are obsessively jealous of NEs success and that's fine, but what is good for the goose is good for the gander. I'm using facts to call out the jealous hypocrites for what they are and if there is anything factually incorrect with what I have said please let me know what it is.
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bostonfred
Footballguy
Exactly. Just like the Broncos collusion stuff isn't really surprising. I don't consider the Broncos superbowl embarrassment any less valid because they have a long history of cheating (usually with the salary cap, but obviously not always). They earned that disappointment fair and square.
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moleculo
Footballguy
I'm not one to defend the Broncos past transgressions. There are folks out there that will say the capstuff in the late 90's was more about financing the new stadium, I personally don't really care. The McDaniels stuff was embarrassing for sure -probably should have expected crap like that, given where he came from. I'm glad Bowlen fired him shortly after the NFL fined him.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
Why so glum, pepe?
ChuckLiddell
Footballguy
That is so not the biggest difference. You gotta remove the blinders. One player presented the refs with the balls the way he wanted them and hoped it would go unnoticed. The other player presented the balls the way they were supposed to be, then allegedly had them altered following the inspection. If the allegations are true, that is clearly the biggest difference, and their records over the past 15 years are 100% irrelevant in comparison.
Run It Up
Footballguy
I meant as an OC, I'll agree I don't think he has what it takes to be a HC, sometimes I pull my hair out because of the insistence to have such specific gameplans, but the Pats have a very clear record of success and of blowing up their gameplans and adjusting if necessary - also with a very high level of success.
Its not just Brady and Belichick making it work with constantly shifting units filled with no-names and cast-offs.
Old Smiley
Footballguy
McDaniels in last years playoffs was some of the best, balls outiest playcalling I've seen.
DropKick
Footballguy
If Brady came out and said "I actually like a ball inflated more than the league allows and we noticed the refs weren't checking them religiously so we experimented a little more each week and found we could get a 14 PSI ball into the game", I think the anti-NE crowd would be up in arms about bending the rules, etc.
My biggest take from the Rodgers interview (and I appreciate his candor), was that the process for inspecting balls was spotty, at best.
Just read the Wells report. It's laughable how unimportant testing and securing the footballs was to the officials before all this nonsense erupted.
Before a playoff game in which the head ref was specifically warned about possible shenanigans with the footballs, they: A) didn't record the initial pressures; B) used an inaccurate gauge; C) left the balls unsupervised in a public place for 20 odd minutes while they did their pregame on the field. (All of that is/was routine, by the way).
apalmer
Footballguy
And I think that if Brady said, "We have guys on the sideline whose only jobs are to deflate the footballs to the pressure I like after they're inspected and we pay them off by having our team physicians slip them oxy" the Patriot lovers wouldn't see anything wrong with that. Is my straw man as good as yours?
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Old Smiley
Footballguy
From the Monday Morning Quarterback:
I also think this is why Kraft backed off. To fight the NFL's case, this is the sort of data you would need.
So we're right back to how outrageously stupid this thing was from the get-go.
Edit: One of you smart guys will have to tell me if even a single season is enough to really get a valid sample.
Of course this is what should have happened before any kind of action was taken at all.
I also think this is why Kraft backed off. To fight the NFL's case, this is the sort of data you would need.
So we're right back to how outrageously stupid this thing was from the get-go.
Edit: One of you smart guys will have to tell me if even a single season is enough to really get a valid sample.
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But how does this season long sample explain Brady's refusal to cooperate with the NFL investigation, as he is contractually obligated to do?
DropKick
Footballguy
No, it's actually idiotic.apalmer said:
The situation I presented was not far from what Rodgers said they did. I personally don't have a problem with it. My point was that some will interpret the same thing different ways depending on the parties involved. Thanks for proving my point.
That was HIS point; YOUR strawnan was idiotic, so he made an equally idiotic argument to the opposite side of the argument. Besides, BB essentially said NE does this. He said they inflate the balls to the lowest PSI, BEFORE they "prep" the balls (applying A LOT of friction-which they know will lower PSI), then then they give them to the officials & leave it to them increase the PSI. Thus is exactly what Rodgers described, except with under-inflated balls vs overinflated balls.
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Old Smiley
Footballguy
Maybe you see the whole schlamozzel for what it was and you go with your conscience and don't cooperate. For that, you probably take your lumps. Like Cassius Clay.
What we'll learn about top NFL decision-makers with Tom Brady appeal ruling:
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4782666/what-well-learn-about-nfl-with-its-tom-brady-appeal-ruling
http://espn.go.com/blog/new-england-patriots/post/_/id/4782666/what-well-learn-about-nfl-with-its-tom-brady-appeal-ruling
DropKick
Footballguy
Not only did you miss my point by a country mile, you want to talk about the Patriots when we're debating Rodgers.
And, since you bring it up, you've mixed up the facts on the "prep" process too. Frictions raises PSI - at least temporarily. It is a non-factor if done more than 30 minutes prior to inspection. You could argue that if you prepped the ball right before it were inspected, you could get an artificially high reading and then an under inflated ball as it reaches equilibrium.
That's exactly what BB said they did: prep the balls right up until they handed the balls off; and that "explained" why the PSI would have dropped below the allowable levels; he basically said "it's the refs jobs to make sure the ball is within the PSI, not ours." The Pats do/did EXACTLY what Rodgers said he's done (to the other extreme). They presented balls that they knew were under the legal PSI, and hoped the officials didn't catch them. But, the big difference is if the refs DID catch those balls, they just altered them after the fact anyway.
From the Monday Morning Quarterback:
That's a fine example, I guess. What happened to Clay because he followed his conscience and refused to do something he was legally obligated to do? Oh, yeah, he was stripped of his title & banned from boxing for 3 years. He made the choice, and he suffered the consequences. Brady must do the same.
