Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)

[Run It Up]

I don't have a problem with yourteamcheats.com. I have a problem with people dismissing everything on there while also accepting select things.

It's a record of infractions, it's up to the individual to determine the severity of those infractions. Not pretend like it's a ####### propaganda machine.

Of course you don't. It's a Pats fan site, set up to deflect some of the blame for spygate & deflategate.

Of course, as soon as I posted the ridiculous nonsense that site lists as "cheats" for NE, you couldn't dismiss them fast enough (especially since I didn't post that they came from yourteamcheats.com).

Put words in my mouth...

We've established now in this thread that the Patriots sorted 'history' of cheating offenses is literally just Spygate, unresolved Defamegate and rumors.

What you posted isn't nonsense, in my opinion. Its a judgement I make on the severity of those infractions. Its substantially ####### different than what you guys do by just dismissing every recorded infraction against your respective favorite team.

I've been called hypocritical a lot more than I ever have in the last couple of pages, but I think its a pretty big ####### joke to see all these people just pretending their favorite teams have never cheated and that a website hosted by patriots fans or not that has a record of infractions is somehow so biased as to make their objective posts simply untrue. Hurr durr its a Patriots site, public common knowledge posted here is untrue...

 

[Old Smiley]

Steph Stradley's Summation via Houston Chronicle

 

[BassNBrew]

I would hope that the one thing everyone can agree on is how poorly the NFL has handled this. We're talking about a manufactured controversy that is at worst a minor equipment violation, and is very possibly nothing more than sour grapes.

Contrast that with how MLB has handled one of their premiere franchises being caught red-handed hacking into a competitor's scouting database, a far more egregious competitive violation. That story died in less than week.

The NBA had a referee caught fixing games, with ties to the mafia. He made a bunch of suspicious looking phone calls to a referee that IS STILL IN THE NBA REFFING GAMES. Other than a few sports writers, no one really talks about that. Kind of seems like a big deal.

And here, we have a 288 page thread on whether or not a QB asked his ball boys to release 0.2 PSI from a few footballs before a game. A game that they won 45-7, outscoring their opponent 28-0 after the alleged ball violation was rectified. Talk about a mountain out of a molehill.

I can't tell if Goodell and the NFL's head honchos are really this comically inept, or if they just completely buy into the philosophy that all news is good news. Because if they're good at anything, it is staying in the news. Regardless of how dumb it makes them look.

What it early tells you is what a great job the NFL brass has done elevating the sport to the point that this many people are interested.

 

[espnespn]

2nd time-deflategate. You don't want to count that, and that is your prerogative. And, you're exactly right, the rumors are just rumors. Just like the RUMORS that Kensil (and other NFL execs) are out to get the Pats. That's the point. Koya, and many others, see the Pats as cheaters. You don't think there is enough proof of that, but he and many others do.

You feel Kensil and other NFL execs are out to get the Pats, but there isn't enough proof of that, yet you still think it's the case. You claimed to be able to provide quotes from these execs that prove this, but you are unable to do so.

You may be right, and Kensil and other execs want to "get the Pats," but there are only rumors and theories, with little proof to base them on. There's more "proof" that the Pats are cheaters, than there is that Kensil is out to "get the Pats," but you continue to believe it, and post it as if it were a fact. It's hypocritical of you to demand proof for what others believe, when you can't prove what you believe.

With regards, to the "cheating" that yourteamcheats.com uses as justification for NE's proven "cheats," I agree with you, they are ridiculous. It's nice to have a few Patriots fans actually acknowledge that in this thread, even if it was done unknowingly.

Serious question. How do you prove anything (never mind collusion)?

The NFL has said, twice, that the Patriots have cheated. That's the proof.

Run it up said he has quotes from NFL execs that "have a beef" with NE. If those quotes exist, that would be proof enough for me that Kensil (or other execs) did want to "get the Pats." But, he has failed to provide those quotes.

That doesn't mean he's wrong, but it's a rumor, based on suspicion that is possibly/probably true.

NE being serial cheaters is based on two instances of the NFL labeling them cheaters (spy/deflategates), and other rumors/reports of cheating.

Some people choose to dismiss the rumors of Kensil trying to "get" the Pats as just rumors; Run it up says those people are blind.

I'm merely pointing out that he's being somewhat hypocritical by stating, as a fact, that NFL execs are out to get NE (without any PROOF), while ignoring the proven instances of NE's cheating & dismissing any other rumors of their cheating actions.

While I was at it, I figured I'd try to get 1 or 2 NE fans to admit that yourteamcheats.com is a ridiculous site. Kill two birds with 1 stone, so to speak.

- Plenty of Salty Haters were calling Patriots serial cheaters before Deflategate happened

- A federal judge has said publicly that the Wells report was biased and has no evidence supporting a deflation scheme for the AFC game. So that debunks the NFL labeling the Patriots as cheaters.

- Plenty of other cheating rumors were debunked (formation-gate, waiver-gate, kicking ball-deflategate)

Sorry, false/debunked accusations are not proof of cheating.

 

[Godsbrother]

Steph Stradley's Summation via Houston Chronicle

The NFL says the Collective Bargaining Agreement allows Goodell to do whatever he wants as long as he goes through the pageantry of arbitration. The NFL Players Association says the NFL isn't really following the CBA and NFL rules as written and informed by labor law.

Yes, this is an oversimplification, but, as your fan lawyer, this is what you need to know about the NFL's legal argument:

If the NFL is right, every single player and team is at risk.

If there is no reasonable way for a team or player to prove his innocence once the process starts...

If the violation can be a pet issue the league never cared about before...

If giving notice of what the rule you violated and potential punishment isn't important...

If something can turn into a ---Gate based on an anonymous source with unknown motives...

Then no team, and no player, is safe from harm to reputation and severe penalties.

The owners and players have prospered beyond their wildest dreams under this system. During the last CBA process only one team thought the system was unfair but were overruled by the other 31 teams. Certainly none of this mattered to Kraft or Brady when other teams and other players felt they were treated unfairly by the NFL. Now all of a sudden "every team is at risk" and "no player is safe...".

Give me a break. The players had a chance to address this and felt that other issues (mostly revenue sharing, rookie salary cap and offseason workouts) were more important.

In my opinion the federal courts should not be wasting their time on this nonsense.

 

[Run It Up]

Steph Stradley's Summation via Houston Chronicle

The NFL says the Collective Bargaining Agreement allows Goodell to do whatever he wants as long as he goes through the pageantry of arbitration. The NFL Players Association says the NFL isn't really following the CBA and NFL rules as written and informed by labor law.

Yes, this is an oversimplification, but, as your fan lawyer, this is what you need to know about the NFL's legal argument:

If the NFL is right, every single player and team is at risk.

If there is no reasonable way for a team or player to prove his innocence once the process starts...

If the violation can be a pet issue the league never cared about before...

If giving notice of what the rule you violated and potential punishment isn't important...

If something can turn into a ---Gate based on an anonymous source with unknown motives...

Then no team, and no player, is safe from harm to reputation and severe penalties.

The owners and players have prospered beyond their wildest dreams under this system. During the last CBA process only one team thought the system was unfair but were overruled by the other 31 teams. Certainly none of this mattered to Kraft or Brady when other teams and other players felt they were treated unfairly by the NFL. Now all of a sudden "every team is at risk" and "no player is safe...".

Give me a break. The players had a chance to address this and felt that other issues (mostly revenue sharing, rookie salary cap and offseason workouts) were more important.

In my opinion the federal courts should not be wasting their time on this nonsense.

Lol, they collectively bargained an agreement. Goodell can overstep that agreement via a loophole. Because said loophole was in the agreement, its totally okay that it invalidates the entirety of the agreement.

10/10 logic. Man, really wish the NFL had just brought that argument to court every day - oh wait, thats exactly what they did.

Judge Doty: "I'm not sure the Commissioner understands there is a CBA"

 

[Godsbrother]

Steph Stradley's Summation via Houston Chronicle

The NFL says the Collective Bargaining Agreement allows Goodell to do whatever he wants as long as he goes through the pageantry of arbitration. The NFL Players Association says the NFL isn't really following the CBA and NFL rules as written and informed by labor law.

Yes, this is an oversimplification, but, as your fan lawyer, this is what you need to know about the NFL's legal argument:

If the NFL is right, every single player and team is at risk.

If there is no reasonable way for a team or player to prove his innocence once the process starts...

If the violation can be a pet issue the league never cared about before...

If giving notice of what the rule you violated and potential punishment isn't important...

If something can turn into a ---Gate based on an anonymous source with unknown motives...

Then no team, and no player, is safe from harm to reputation and severe penalties.

The owners and players have prospered beyond their wildest dreams under this system. During the last CBA process only one team thought the system was unfair but were overruled by the other 31 teams. Certainly none of this mattered to Kraft or Brady when other teams and other players felt they were treated unfairly by the NFL. Now all of a sudden "every team is at risk" and "no player is safe...".

Give me a break. The players had a chance to address this and felt that other issues (mostly revenue sharing, rookie salary cap and offseason workouts) were more important.

In my opinion the federal courts should not be wasting their time on this nonsense.

Lol, they collectively bargained an agreement. Goodell can overstep that agreement via a loophole. Because said loophole was in the agreement, its totally okay that it invalidates the entirety of the agreement.

10/10 logic. Man, really wish the NFL had just brought that argument to court every day - oh wait, thats exactly what they did.

Judge Doty: "I'm not sure the Commissioner understands there is a CBA"

It doesn't invalidate anything. If the NFLPA doesn't like the CBA then as a union they can strike and hold out until they negotiate the "loopholes" out of agreement. You think any of those millionaire players care enough to do that? I sure don't.

 

[Run It Up]

Steph Stradley's Summation via Houston Chronicle

The NFL says the Collective Bargaining Agreement allows Goodell to do whatever he wants as long as he goes through the pageantry of arbitration. The NFL Players Association says the NFL isn't really following the CBA and NFL rules as written and informed by labor law.

Yes, this is an oversimplification, but, as your fan lawyer, this is what you need to know about the NFL's legal argument:

If the NFL is right, every single player and team is at risk.

If there is no reasonable way for a team or player to prove his innocence once the process starts...

If the violation can be a pet issue the league never cared about before...

If giving notice of what the rule you violated and potential punishment isn't important...

If something can turn into a ---Gate based on an anonymous source with unknown motives...

Then no team, and no player, is safe from harm to reputation and severe penalties.

The owners and players have prospered beyond their wildest dreams under this system. During the last CBA process only one team thought the system was unfair but were overruled by the other 31 teams. Certainly none of this mattered to Kraft or Brady when other teams and other players felt they were treated unfairly by the NFL. Now all of a sudden "every team is at risk" and "no player is safe...".

Give me a break. The players had a chance to address this and felt that other issues (mostly revenue sharing, rookie salary cap and offseason workouts) were more important.

In my opinion the federal courts should not be wasting their time on this nonsense.

Lol, they collectively bargained an agreement. Goodell can overstep that agreement via a loophole. Because said loophole was in the agreement, its totally okay that it invalidates the entirety of the agreement.

10/10 logic. Man, really wish the NFL had just brought that argument to court every day - oh wait, thats exactly what they did.

Judge Doty: "I'm not sure the Commissioner understands there is a CBA"

It doesn't invalidate anything. If the NFLPA doesn't like the CBA then as a union they can strike and hold out until they negotiate the "loopholes" out of agreement. You think any of those millionaire players care enough to do that? I sure don't.

Or the much more sensible thing would be to just go to court.

 

[Bayhawks]

I don't have a problem with yourteamcheats.com. I have a problem with people dismissing everything on there while also accepting select things.

It's a record of infractions, it's up to the individual to determine the severity of those infractions. Not pretend like it's a ####### propaganda machine.

Of course you don't. It's a Pats fan site, set up to deflect some of the blame for spygate & deflategate.

Of course, as soon as I posted the ridiculous nonsense that site lists as "cheats" for NE, you couldn't dismiss them fast enough (especially since I didn't post that they came from yourteamcheats.com).

Put words in my mouth...

We've established now in this thread that the Patriots sorted 'history' of cheating offenses is literally just Spygate, unresolved Defamegate and rumors.

What you posted isn't nonsense, in my opinion. Its a judgement I make on the severity of those infractions. Its substantially ####### different than what you guys do by just dismissing every recorded infraction against your respective favorite team.

I've been called hypocritical a lot more than I ever have in the last couple of pages, but I think its a pretty big ####### joke to see all these people just pretending their favorite teams have never cheated and that a website hosted by patriots fans or not that has a record of infractions is somehow so biased as to make their objective posts simply untrue. Hurr durr its a Patriots site, public common knowledge posted here is untrue...

What words did I put in your mouth? If I attributed something to you that you didn't post, I apologize.

When a person (or in this case, a website) is so fundamentally biased, it deserves no credibility.

With regards to calling you a hypocrite, if I offended you, I apologize. I'm not sure what other term I could use, however. You choose to believe the rumors of NFL execs having it in for the Pats, (and that's all it is-a rumor), but chastise those who choose to believe the rumors of cheats perpetuated by the Patriots.

If you choose to believe the rumors that NFL execs have it out for NE, then you shouldn't complain when others believe the rumors about other acts of cheating perpetuated by NE (in addition to spy/deflategate).

Edited to redact text pertaining to yourteamcheats.com. It's a ridiculous site & doesn't need to be discussed in this thread.

 

[JuniorNB]

Next up on the NFL / Goodel agenda....

A new multi-million dollar Wells report leading to a 4 game suspension of Matt Ryan ....for his role in Atlantas "piped in crowd noise" scheme.

"noise-gate"?

.

.

.

.

.

oh, wait ... that team sucks. Never mind.

Good example. I haven't seen one person involved with piping in that noise lie or deny their involvement in it. They took their fine and moved on. Patriots should have learned by their example.

 

[JuniorNB]

Steph Stradley's Summation via Houston Chronicle

The NFL says the Collective Bargaining Agreement allows Goodell to do whatever he wants as long as he goes through the pageantry of arbitration. The NFL Players Association says the NFL isn't really following the CBA and NFL rules as written and informed by labor law.

Yes, this is an oversimplification, but, as your fan lawyer, this is what you need to know about the NFL's legal argument:

If the NFL is right, every single player and team is at risk.

If there is no reasonable way for a team or player to prove his innocence once the process starts...

If the violation can be a pet issue the league never cared about before...

If giving notice of what the rule you violated and potential punishment isn't important...

If something can turn into a ---Gate based on an anonymous source with unknown motives...

Then no team, and no player, is safe from harm to reputation and severe penalties.

The owners and players have prospered beyond their wildest dreams under this system. During the last CBA process only one team thought the system was unfair but were overruled by the other 31 teams. Certainly none of this mattered to Kraft or Brady when other teams and other players felt they were treated unfairly by the NFL. Now all of a sudden "every team is at risk" and "no player is safe...".

Give me a break. The players had a chance to address this and felt that other issues (mostly revenue sharing, rookie salary cap and offseason workouts) were more important.

In my opinion the federal courts should not be wasting their time on this nonsense.

Lol, they collectively bargained an agreement. Goodell can overstep that agreement via a loophole. Because said loophole was in the agreement, its totally okay that it invalidates the entirety of the agreement.

10/10 logic. Man, really wish the NFL had just brought that argument to court every day - oh wait, thats exactly what they did.

Judge Doty: "I'm not sure the Commissioner understands there is a CBA"

It doesn't invalidate anything. If the NFLPA doesn't like the CBA then as a union they can strike and hold out until they negotiate the "loopholes" out of agreement. You think any of those millionaire players care enough to do that? I sure don't.

Or the much more sensible thing would be to just go to court.

To overturn something that was negotiated on and agreed to by that very NFLPA? They'd look like idiots.

Here's how negotiations work: Both sides have a list of demands. One by one, they get discussed. One side will concede one of his demands only if the other sides concedes one of theirs. The fact that the players agreed to allowing the commissioner to also be the arbitrator means that they got something in return. So if they go to court to overturn that part, what are they giving back?

 

[AngryPatriot]

The troll/haters are getting nervous as the case shifts in the Brady camp direction....

 

[JuniorNB]

The troll/haters are getting nervous as the case shifts in the Brady camp direction....

LOL The two draft picks that Kraft agreed to without a fight is a huge team penalty. Brady's suspension is just gravy. Personally, as an Eagles fan, I'm hoping it gets reduced to two games. I'd like to see him play against the Cowboys.

 

[Bossman]

I was just remembering that time on a special teams play when the Jets had a bunch of either inactive players or assistant coaches lined up on the sideline with their arms crossed to cover their crotches. Was it NE who griped about that?

Like I said, there's a long, colourful history between those two franchises.

Wasn't that Mangini? Where do you think he learned it?

It was the strength coach who stuck his knee out a bit as a Miami special teamer ran by and tripped him up (it was under Rex Ryan's reign). He was fired by the team. He's now the strength coach at USC and is the guy that Sean Puffy Combs swung a weight at when they had a verbal altercation about how his son was being treated.

Kevin Bacon.

What I always thought was interesting in that case was not the strength coach's action, but just having that row of guys in Jets warm-up suits all lined up protecting their junk. Surely you could make a "generally aware" case there.

And, I'm not singling out the Jets either. If I recall, the reason for the guys standing there was that the gunners on the other team were pushing the rules and staying out of bounds in order to avoid interference as they ran downfield.

Except for the strength coach guy sticking his knee out slightly (surely dirty pool there), what they were doing was fine. They were out of bounds and "preventing" an illegal advantage for the opposing team. He was fired for arranging it though and for his actions. Guy was a scumbag for sure as he could have seriously injured a player.

I don't remember if the team was fined or anything, but if they were punished I would have said they deserve it. I don't stick my head in the sand when my team does something shady.

Nope. Positioning non-players as pylons to interfere with some schmoe running full bore down the sidelines is not fine. Injury risk on both sides and not your bloody job. Complain to the refs or write a letter to the league.

Anyway, I only brought it up because I couldn't remember if it was the Pats who ratted them out.

"Obstruct-Gate" ... I demand a Wells report!

 

[JIslander]

I was just remembering that time on a special teams play when the Jets had a bunch of either inactive players or assistant coaches lined up on the sideline with their arms crossed to cover their crotches. Was it NE who griped about that?

Like I said, there's a long, colourful history between those two franchises.

Wasn't that Mangini? Where do you think he learned it?

It was the strength coach who stuck his knee out a bit as a Miami special teamer ran by and tripped him up (it was under Rex Ryan's reign). He was fired by the team. He's now the strength coach at USC and is the guy that Sean Puffy Combs swung a weight at when they had a verbal altercation about how his son was being treated.

Kevin Bacon.

What I always thought was interesting in that case was not the strength coach's action, but just having that row of guys in Jets warm-up suits all lined up protecting their junk. Surely you could make a "generally aware" case there.

And, I'm not singling out the Jets either. If I recall, the reason for the guys standing there was that the gunners on the other team were pushing the rules and staying out of bounds in order to avoid interference as they ran downfield.

Except for the strength coach guy sticking his knee out slightly (surely dirty pool there), what they were doing was fine. They were out of bounds and "preventing" an illegal advantage for the opposing team. He was fired for arranging it though and for his actions. Guy was a scumbag for sure as he could have seriously injured a player.

I don't remember if the team was fined or anything, but if they were punished I would have said they deserve it. I don't stick my head in the sand when my team does something shady.

Nope. Positioning non-players as pylons to interfere with some schmoe running full bore down the sidelines is not fine. Injury risk on both sides and not your bloody job. Complain to the refs or write a letter to the league.

Anyway, I only brought it up because I couldn't remember if it was the Pats who ratted them out.

"Obstruct-Gate" ... I demand a Wells report!

..or an enema

 

[Rubi]

The troll/haters are getting nervous as the case shifts in the Brady camp direction....

LOL The two draft picks that Kraft agreed to without a fight is a huge team penalty. Brady's suspension is just gravy. Personally, as an Eagles fan, I'm hoping it gets reduced to two games. I'd like to see him play against the Cowboys.

Let me start by saying I am a N.Y. Giants fan so I have enjoyed watching Brady get pummeled in the past,but imop if you have any Patsies start them on opening night against the "silk curtain" D of the Steelers. Brady will be playing...on national TV...after having made Sir Roger and his minions look like fools...and he will be P.I.S.S.E.D.

 

[bostonfred]

Take the over on offensive pass interference calls

 

[Jercules]

I don't have a problem with yourteamcheats.com. I have a problem with people dismissing everything on there while also accepting select things.

It's a record of infractions, it's up to the individual to determine the severity of those infractions. Not pretend like it's a ####### propaganda machine.

Of course you don't. It's a Pats fan site, set up to deflect some of the blame for spygate & deflategate.

Of course, as soon as I posted the ridiculous nonsense that site lists as "cheats" for NE, you couldn't dismiss them fast enough (especially since I didn't post that they came from yourteamcheats.com).

Put words in my mouth...

We've established now in this thread that the Patriots sorted 'history' of cheating offenses is literally just Spygate, unresolved Defamegate and rumors.

What you posted isn't nonsense, in my opinion. Its a judgement I make on the severity of those infractions. Its substantially ####### different than what you guys do by just dismissing every recorded infraction against your respective favorite team.

I've been called hypocritical a lot more than I ever have in the last couple of pages, but I think its a pretty big ####### joke to see all these people just pretending their favorite teams have never cheated and that a website hosted by patriots fans or not that has a record of infractions is somehow so biased as to make their objective posts simply untrue. Hurr durr its a Patriots site, public common knowledge posted here is untrue...

What words did I put in your mouth? If I attributed something to you that you didn't post, I apologize.

When a person (or in this case, a website) is so fundamentally biased, it deserves no credibility.

With regards to calling you a hypocrite, if I offended you, I apologize. I'm not sure what other term I could use, however. You choose to believe the rumors of NFL execs having it in for the Pats, (and that's all it is-a rumor), but chastise those who choose to believe the rumors of cheats perpetuated by the Patriots.

If you choose to believe the rumors that NFL execs have it out for NE, then you shouldn't complain when others believe the rumors about other acts of cheating perpetuated by NE (in addition to spy/deflategate).

Edited to redact text pertaining to yourteamcheats.com. It's a ridiculous site & doesn't need to be discussed in this thread.

What a preposterous comment.

The last time this guy made a serious attempt to discredit yourteamcheats.com he embarrassed himself so thoroughly he had to put me on 'ignore' to keep from being reminded of it.

Now he, and others, must pretend the site is 'ridiculous' just because, even though it's basically just an inventory of different incidents and allegations of NFL cheating throughout the years. It's like saying the dictionary is BS.

Something inhibits or counters your argument and you can't deal with it rationally? Pretend it's "crazy" or "ridiculous", thereby implying it's unworthy of the consideration you're secretly scared people will give it. It's not a terribly uncommon tactic of argument.

 

[Jercules]

The troll/haters are getting nervous as the case shifts in the Brady camp direction....

LOL The two draft picks that Kraft agreed to without a fight is a huge team penalty. Brady's suspension is just gravy. Personally, as an Eagles fan, I'm hoping it gets reduced to two games. I'd like to see him play against the Cowboys.

I agree, as a Pats fan the stolen draft picks are what really piss me off.

That being said, having our GOAT QB available for the full season would be nice. It would vindicate him and the organization to a certain degree, vastly improve our chances in those first four games, and strike a blow against Herr Goodell for all NFL players.

 

[Pots]

I don't have a problem with yourteamcheats.com. I have a problem with people dismissing everything on there while also accepting select things.

It's a record of infractions, it's up to the individual to determine the severity of those infractions. Not pretend like it's a ####### propaganda machine.

Of course you don't. It's a Pats fan site, set up to deflect some of the blame for spygate & deflategate.

Of course, as soon as I posted the ridiculous nonsense that site lists as "cheats" for NE, you couldn't dismiss them fast enough (especially since I didn't post that they came from yourteamcheats.com).

Put words in my mouth...

We've established now in this thread that the Patriots sorted 'history' of cheating offenses is literally just Spygate, unresolved Defamegate and rumors.

What you posted isn't nonsense, in my opinion. Its a judgement I make on the severity of those infractions. Its substantially ####### different than what you guys do by just dismissing every recorded infraction against your respective favorite team.

I've been called hypocritical a lot more than I ever have in the last couple of pages, but I think its a pretty big ####### joke to see all these people just pretending their favorite teams have never cheated and that a website hosted by patriots fans or not that has a record of infractions is somehow so biased as to make their objective posts simply untrue. Hurr durr its a Patriots site, public common knowledge posted here is untrue...

What words did I put in your mouth? If I attributed something to you that you didn't post, I apologize.

When a person (or in this case, a website) is so fundamentally biased, it deserves no credibility.

With regards to calling you a hypocrite, if I offended you, I apologize. I'm not sure what other term I could use, however. You choose to believe the rumors of NFL execs having it in for the Pats, (and that's all it is-a rumor), but chastise those who choose to believe the rumors of cheats perpetuated by the Patriots.

If you choose to believe the rumors that NFL execs have it out for NE, then you shouldn't complain when others believe the rumors about other acts of cheating perpetuated by NE (in addition to spy/deflategate).

Edited to redact text pertaining to yourteamcheats.com. It's a ridiculous site & doesn't need to be discussed in this thread.

What a preposterous comment.

The last time this guy made a serious attempt to discredit yourteamcheats.com he embarrassed himself so thoroughly he had to put me on 'ignore' to keep from being reminded of it.

Now he, and others, must pretend the site is 'ridiculous' just because, even though it's basically just an inventory of different incidents and allegations of NFL cheating throughout the years. It's like saying the dictionary is BS.

Something inhibits or counters your argument and you can't deal with it rationally? Pretend it's "crazy" or "ridiculous", thereby implying it's unworthy of the consideration you're secretly scared people will give it. It's not a terribly uncommon tactic of argument.

Comparing that site to a dictionary is pretty egregious imo.

 

[DropKick]

I was just remembering that time on a special teams play when the Jets had a bunch of either inactive players or assistant coaches lined up on the sideline with their arms crossed to cover their crotches. Was it NE who griped about that?

Like I said, there's a long, colourful history between those two franchises.

Wasn't that Mangini? Where do you think he learned it?

It was the strength coach who stuck his knee out a bit as a Miami special teamer ran by and tripped him up (it was under Rex Ryan's reign). He was fired by the team. He's now the strength coach at USC and is the guy that Sean Puffy Combs swung a weight at when they had a verbal altercation about how his son was being treated.

Kevin Bacon.

What I always thought was interesting in that case was not the strength coach's action, but just having that row of guys in Jets warm-up suits all lined up protecting their junk. Surely you could make a "generally aware" case there.

And, I'm not singling out the Jets either. If I recall, the reason for the guys standing there was that the gunners on the other team were pushing the rules and staying out of bounds in order to avoid interference as they ran downfield.

Except for the strength coach guy sticking his knee out slightly (surely dirty pool there), what they were doing was fine. They were out of bounds and "preventing" an illegal advantage for the opposing team. He was fired for arranging it though and for his actions. Guy was a scumbag for sure as he could have seriously injured a player.

I don't remember if the team was fined or anything, but if they were punished I would have said they deserve it. I don't stick my head in the sand when my team does something shady.

Nope. Positioning non-players as pylons to interfere with some schmoe running full bore down the sidelines is not fine. Injury risk on both sides and not your bloody job. Complain to the refs or write a letter to the league.

Anyway, I only brought it up because I couldn't remember if it was the Pats who ratted them out.

The "schmoe" was Nolan Carroll - currently with the Eagles. See a kid needlessly in pain... That one made me sick.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

I don't have a problem with yourteamcheats.com. I have a problem with people dismissing everything on there while also accepting select things.

It's a record of infractions, it's up to the individual to determine the severity of those infractions. Not pretend like it's a ####### propaganda machine.

Of course you don't. It's a Pats fan site, set up to deflect some of the blame for spygate & deflategate.

Of course, as soon as I posted the ridiculous nonsense that site lists as "cheats" for NE, you couldn't dismiss them fast enough (especially since I didn't post that they came from yourteamcheats.com).

Put words in my mouth...

We've established now in this thread that the Patriots sorted 'history' of cheating offenses is literally just Spygate, unresolved Defamegate and rumors.

What you posted isn't nonsense, in my opinion. Its a judgement I make on the severity of those infractions. Its substantially ####### different than what you guys do by just dismissing every recorded infraction against your respective favorite team.

I've been called hypocritical a lot more than I ever have in the last couple of pages, but I think its a pretty big ####### joke to see all these people just pretending their favorite teams have never cheated and that a website hosted by patriots fans or not that has a record of infractions is somehow so biased as to make their objective posts simply untrue. Hurr durr its a Patriots site, public common knowledge posted here is untrue...

What words did I put in your mouth? If I attributed something to you that you didn't post, I apologize.

When a person (or in this case, a website) is so fundamentally biased, it deserves no credibility.

With regards to calling you a hypocrite, if I offended you, I apologize. I'm not sure what other term I could use, however. You choose to believe the rumors of NFL execs having it in for the Pats, (and that's all it is-a rumor), but chastise those who choose to believe the rumors of cheats perpetuated by the Patriots.

If you choose to believe the rumors that NFL execs have it out for NE, then you shouldn't complain when others believe the rumors about other acts of cheating perpetuated by NE (in addition to spy/deflategate).

Edited to redact text pertaining to yourteamcheats.com. It's a ridiculous site & doesn't need to be discussed in this thread.

What a preposterous comment.

The last time this guy made a serious attempt to discredit yourteamcheats.com he embarrassed himself so thoroughly he had to put me on 'ignore' to keep from being reminded of it.

Now he, and others, must pretend the site is 'ridiculous' just because, even though it's basically just an inventory of different incidents and allegations of NFL cheating throughout the years. It's like saying the dictionary is BS.

Something inhibits or counters your argument and you can't deal with it rationally? Pretend it's "crazy" or "ridiculous", thereby implying it's unworthy of the consideration you're secretly scared people will give it. It's not a terribly uncommon tactic of argument.

Comparing that site to a dictionary is pretty egregious imo.

I'm making yourteamcheats my humble act of public service for the Patriots and Patriots Nation,

*

 

[GreekFreak]

How about that time Mike Tomlin interfered with jacoby Jones returning a kick? Isn't that cheating or ruining the integrity of the game?

 

[Jercules]

I don't have a problem with yourteamcheats.com. I have a problem with people dismissing everything on there while also accepting select things.

It's a record of infractions, it's up to the individual to determine the severity of those infractions. Not pretend like it's a ####### propaganda machine.

Of course you don't. It's a Pats fan site, set up to deflect some of the blame for spygate & deflategate.

Of course, as soon as I posted the ridiculous nonsense that site lists as "cheats" for NE, you couldn't dismiss them fast enough (especially since I didn't post that they came from yourteamcheats.com).

Put words in my mouth...

We've established now in this thread that the Patriots sorted 'history' of cheating offenses is literally just Spygate, unresolved Defamegate and rumors.

What you posted isn't nonsense, in my opinion. Its a judgement I make on the severity of those infractions. Its substantially ####### different than what you guys do by just dismissing every recorded infraction against your respective favorite team.

I've been called hypocritical a lot more than I ever have in the last couple of pages, but I think its a pretty big ####### joke to see all these people just pretending their favorite teams have never cheated and that a website hosted by patriots fans or not that has a record of infractions is somehow so biased as to make their objective posts simply untrue. Hurr durr its a Patriots site, public common knowledge posted here is untrue...

What words did I put in your mouth? If I attributed something to you that you didn't post, I apologize.

When a person (or in this case, a website) is so fundamentally biased, it deserves no credibility.

With regards to calling you a hypocrite, if I offended you, I apologize. I'm not sure what other term I could use, however. You choose to believe the rumors of NFL execs having it in for the Pats, (and that's all it is-a rumor), but chastise those who choose to believe the rumors of cheats perpetuated by the Patriots.

If you choose to believe the rumors that NFL execs have it out for NE, then you shouldn't complain when others believe the rumors about other acts of cheating perpetuated by NE (in addition to spy/deflategate).

Edited to redact text pertaining to yourteamcheats.com. It's a ridiculous site & doesn't need to be discussed in this thread.

What a preposterous comment.

The last time this guy made a serious attempt to discredit yourteamcheats.com he embarrassed himself so thoroughly he had to put me on 'ignore' to keep from being reminded of it.

Now he, and others, must pretend the site is 'ridiculous' just because, even though it's basically just an inventory of different incidents and allegations of NFL cheating throughout the years. It's like saying the dictionary is BS.

Something inhibits or counters your argument and you can't deal with it rationally? Pretend it's "crazy" or "ridiculous", thereby implying it's unworthy of the consideration you're secretly scared people will give it. It's not a terribly uncommon tactic of argument.

Comparing that site to a dictionary is pretty egregious imo.

Another common tactic of argument: make an issue of something totally tertiary to the point at hand.

 

[bostonfred]

Ben Roethlisberger did not rape anyone*

 

[Jercules]

I don't have a problem with yourteamcheats.com. I have a problem with people dismissing everything on there while also accepting select things.

It's a record of infractions, it's up to the individual to determine the severity of those infractions. Not pretend like it's a ####### propaganda machine.

Of course you don't. It's a Pats fan site, set up to deflect some of the blame for spygate & deflategate.

Of course, as soon as I posted the ridiculous nonsense that site lists as "cheats" for NE, you couldn't dismiss them fast enough (especially since I didn't post that they came from yourteamcheats.com).

Put words in my mouth...

We've established now in this thread that the Patriots sorted 'history' of cheating offenses is literally just Spygate, unresolved Defamegate and rumors.

What you posted isn't nonsense, in my opinion. Its a judgement I make on the severity of those infractions. Its substantially ####### different than what you guys do by just dismissing every recorded infraction against your respective favorite team.

I've been called hypocritical a lot more than I ever have in the last couple of pages, but I think its a pretty big ####### joke to see all these people just pretending their favorite teams have never cheated and that a website hosted by patriots fans or not that has a record of infractions is somehow so biased as to make their objective posts simply untrue. Hurr durr its a Patriots site, public common knowledge posted here is untrue...

What words did I put in your mouth? If I attributed something to you that you didn't post, I apologize.

When a person (or in this case, a website) is so fundamentally biased, it deserves no credibility.

With regards to calling you a hypocrite, if I offended you, I apologize. I'm not sure what other term I could use, however. You choose to believe the rumors of NFL execs having it in for the Pats, (and that's all it is-a rumor), but chastise those who choose to believe the rumors of cheats perpetuated by the Patriots.

If you choose to believe the rumors that NFL execs have it out for NE, then you shouldn't complain when others believe the rumors about other acts of cheating perpetuated by NE (in addition to spy/deflategate).

Edited to redact text pertaining to yourteamcheats.com. It's a ridiculous site & doesn't need to be discussed in this thread.

What a preposterous comment.

The last time this guy made a serious attempt to discredit yourteamcheats.com he embarrassed himself so thoroughly he had to put me on 'ignore' to keep from being reminded of it.

Now he, and others, must pretend the site is 'ridiculous' just because, even though it's basically just an inventory of different incidents and allegations of NFL cheating throughout the years. It's like saying the dictionary is BS.

Something inhibits or counters your argument and you can't deal with it rationally? Pretend it's "crazy" or "ridiculous", thereby implying it's unworthy of the consideration you're secretly scared people will give it. It's not a terribly uncommon tactic of argument.

Comparing that site to a dictionary is pretty egregious imo.

I'm making yourteamcheats my humble act of public service for the Patriots and Patriots Nation,

*

Lol, try not to feel too glorious there buddy, yourteamcheats.com was obviously made by a Pats fan.

And facts don't stop being facts because you don't like the person presenting them.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Yes, the facts do stop... because if you read his creation thread he is admitting that he is trying to make everything look great for the Pats.

He had spygate as a 0 infraction until he was told it makes the Pats look bad.

Its pure propaganda.

 

[Jercules]

Yes, the facts do stop... because if you read his creation thread he is admitting that he is trying to make everything look great for the Pats.

He had spygate as a 0 infraction until he was told it makes the Pats look bad.

Its pure propaganda.

Well that wasn't just an asterisk or a series of random emoticons, so cheers to that.

You're definitely a little fuzzy on the word "pure", let alone "propaganda".

And even if the maker of the site is totally, 100% shamelessly self-serving... so what? Denver didn't cheat the salary cap in the late '90's? Jerry Rice didn't use stickum? Mike Tomlin didn't try to impede Jacoby Jones on his way to the endzone?

How's this for a mind####: Spygate is included on the Patriots team page; is that BS now too because "yourteamcheats is pure propaganda!"?

 

[BigSteelThrill]

"yourteamcheats is pure propaganda!"?

Correct.

 

[Pots]

Yes, the facts do stop... because if you read his creation thread he is admitting that he is trying to make everything look great for the Pats.

He had spygate as a 0 infraction until he was told it makes the Pats look bad.

Its pure propaganda.

Well that wasn't just an asterisk or a series of random emoticons, so cheers to that.

You're definitely a little fuzzy on the word "pure", let alone "propaganda".

And even if the maker of the site is totally, 100% shamelessly self-serving... so what? Denver didn't cheat the salary cap in the late '90's? Jerry Rice didn't use stickum? Mike Tomlin didn't try to impede Jacoby Jones on his way to the endzone?

How's this for a mind####: Spygate is included on the Patriots team page; is that BS now too because "yourteamcheats is pure propaganda!"?

Are you the creator or something?

 

[Jercules]

Yes, the facts do stop... because if you read his creation thread he is admitting that he is trying to make everything look great for the Pats.

He had spygate as a 0 infraction until he was told it makes the Pats look bad.

Its pure propaganda.

Well that wasn't just an asterisk or a series of random emoticons, so cheers to that.

You're definitely a little fuzzy on the word "pure", let alone "propaganda".

And even if the maker of the site is totally, 100% shamelessly self-serving... so what? Denver didn't cheat the salary cap in the late '90's? Jerry Rice didn't use stickum? Mike Tomlin didn't try to impede Jacoby Jones on his way to the endzone?

How's this for a mind####: Spygate is included on the Patriots team page; is that BS now too because "yourteamcheats is pure propaganda!"?

Are you the creator or something?

Nope. Had I created it, I would've minimized the Pats-fan snark with the obvious understanding that every hater and their mother will use even the flimsiest of pretexts to try and discredit me.

Nonetheless, the guy(s) did such a thorough job that no one can give us a single false factoid among hundreds.

All we hear is:

"The maker is a Pats fan" (so what?),

"He pretends every incident/allegation is the same" (no he doesn't, he ranks them based on severity),

"He mentions stuff that isn't cheating" (like, for instance, the Pats using those tricky formations, or Lawrence Taylor sending hookers to tire out an opponent on the eve of a game. Things that are mistakenly thought to be cheating or just generally scuzzy are listed for the sake of being comprehensive, and are appropriately described),

"It's all just this guy's BS opinion!" (well, the severity rankings are somewhat subjective, but if he didn't include them you'd just say he's pretending everything is the same!)

I would be all over this thread with any comprehensive list of NFL cheats out there, whoever created it, for the obvious reason that it adds necessary context to the talk of deflated footballs (or ill-positioned cameramen) and wrecks any argument that these things are serious.

 

[Jercules]

"yourteamcheats is pure propaganda!"?

Correct.

Ah, you tried to be serious, just for a second there... and it didn't work out so well for ya, did it?

Go back to posting giant asterisks friend.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

"yourteamcheats is pure propaganda!"?

Correct.

Ah, you tried to be serious, just for a second there... and it didn't work out so well for ya, did it?

Go back to posting giants asterisks friend.

You posting other teams infractions does little-or-nothing in your attempted defense. #taintedforever

 

[Jercules]

"yourteamcheats is pure propaganda!"?

Correct.

Ah, you tried to be serious, just for a second there... and it didn't work out so well for ya, did it?

Go back to posting giants asterisks friend.

You posting other teams infractions does little-or-nothing in your attempted defense. #taintedforever

Uhh, uhh, uhhh... okay then!

 

[ratbast]

The Wells report was garbage and Goodell can't see it failed. Im sorry but the minute Wells gave that report, anyone in they're right mind would have said "that's not enough to continue", and stopped right there. The Pats would have always answered for it at that point anyway.

going after Brady was stupid.

 

[HobbesAB]

I don't understand why the findings of the NFL under Goodell's leadership is taken as gospel. He has shown that he will lie and manipulate the situation to fit his agenda. I find it hard to believe any "investigation" conducted under his watch that was not confirmed through other sources (court records, video, TMZ, etc).

If the non-Pats fans are just trolling, then ok, I get that. However, if it's not just trolling, why is the NFL under Goodell a trustworthy institution? I find it hard to believe that this is the first time Goodell and the NFL has lied. It's just the first time we are getting to see the whole process with the release of transcripts.

 

[BigSteelThrill]

Goodell a trustworthy institution?

The Patriots are one of the few things that people find to be more corrupt then Goodell within the NFL. So however bad he is/isnt, the counterpart is largely seen as worse.

 

[Godsbrother]

I don't understand why the findings of the NFL under Goodell's leadership is taken as gospel. He has shown that he will lie and manipulate the situation to fit his agenda. I find it hard to believe any "investigation" conducted under his watch that was not confirmed through other sources (court records, video, TMZ, etc).

If the non-Pats fans are just trolling, then ok, I get that. However, if it's not just trolling, why is the NFL under Goodell a trustworthy institution? I find it hard to believe that this is the first time Goodell and the NFL has lied. It's just the first time we are getting to see the whole process with the release of transcripts.

Who ever said that Goodell and the NFL were trustworthy? Who ever said the Patriots or any other team or player was trustworthy?

 

[Road Warriors]

I don't understand why the findings of the NFL under Goodell's leadership is taken as gospel. He has shown that he will lie and manipulate the situation to fit his agenda. I find it hard to believe any "investigation" conducted under his watch that was not confirmed through other sources (court records, video, TMZ, etc).

If the non-Pats fans are just trolling, then ok, I get that. However, if it's not just trolling, why is the NFL under Goodell a trustworthy institution? I find it hard to believe that this is the first time Goodell and the NFL has lied. It's just the first time we are getting to see the whole process with the release of transcripts.

Who ever said that Goodell and the NFL were trustworthy? Who ever said the Patriots or any other team or player was trustworthy?

someone earlier used "The NFL has declared the Pats cheated twice" as proof of the Pats being serial cheaters. Doesn't seem like a stretch to say that is extending some level of trustworthy to the NFL and their findings.

 

[Old Smiley]

I was just remembering that time on a special teams play when the Jets had a bunch of either inactive players or assistant coaches lined up on the sideline with their arms crossed to cover their crotches. Was it NE who griped about that?

Like I said, there's a long, colourful history between those two franchises.

Wasn't that Mangini? Where do you think he learned it?

It was the strength coach who stuck his knee out a bit as a Miami special teamer ran by and tripped him up (it was under Rex Ryan's reign). He was fired by the team. He's now the strength coach at USC and is the guy that Sean Puffy Combs swung a weight at when they had a verbal altercation about how his son was being treated.

Kevin Bacon.

What I always thought was interesting in that case was not the strength coach's action, but just having that row of guys in Jets warm-up suits all lined up protecting their junk. Surely you could make a "generally aware" case there.

And, I'm not singling out the Jets either. If I recall, the reason for the guys standing there was that the gunners on the other team were pushing the rules and staying out of bounds in order to avoid interference as they ran downfield.

Except for the strength coach guy sticking his knee out slightly (surely dirty pool there), what they were doing was fine. They were out of bounds and "preventing" an illegal advantage for the opposing team. He was fired for arranging it though and for his actions. Guy was a scumbag for sure as he could have seriously injured a player.

I don't remember if the team was fined or anything, but if they were punished I would have said they deserve it. I don't stick my head in the sand when my team does something shady.

Nope. Positioning non-players as pylons to interfere with some schmoe running full bore down the sidelines is not fine. Injury risk on both sides and not your bloody job. Complain to the refs or write a letter to the league.

Anyway, I only brought it up because I couldn't remember if it was the Pats who ratted them out.

The "schmoe" was Nolan Carroll - currently with the Eagles. See a kid needlessly in pain... That one made me sick.

Good point. Nice he's still in the league. Only used that term to emphasize that he was not a wealthy player with a safe roster spot.

 

[kOOk]

I don't understand why the findings of the NFL under Goodell's leadership is taken as gospel. He has shown that he will lie and manipulate the situation to fit his agenda. I find it hard to believe any "investigation" conducted under his watch that was not confirmed through other sources (court records, video, TMZ, etc).

If the non-Pats fans are just trolling, then ok, I get that. However, if it's not just trolling, why is the NFL under Goodell a trustworthy institution? I find it hard to believe that this is the first time Goodell and the NFL has lied. It's just the first time we are getting to see the whole process with the release of transcripts.

Who ever said that Goodell and the NFL were trustworthy? Who ever said the Patriots or any other team or player was trustworthy?

So Tom Brady had nothing to do with the deflating of balls to give himself and his team an advantage? Because the commissioner isn't trustworthy. Makes sense.

 

[Shanahanigans]

You posting other teams infractions does little-or-nothing in your attempted defense. #taintedforever

This. In the same way the 70s Steelers championships are tainted by steroid use, the Broncos titles are tainted by salary cap infringement, the Pats titles will always be tainted by their two scandals. It does not take away what they accomplished, but there will forever be a blemish, and their legacy will forever be tarnished. How much so depends on the person and their perspective.

 

[Deamon]

is this the biggest thread of all time?

 

[Bayhawks]

I don't understand why the findings of the NFL under Goodell's leadership is taken as gospel. He has shown that he will lie and manipulate the situation to fit his agenda. I find it hard to believe any "investigation" conducted under his watch that was not confirmed through other sources (court records, video, TMZ, etc).

If the non-Pats fans are just trolling, then ok, I get that. However, if it's not just trolling, why is the NFL under Goodell a trustworthy institution? I find it hard to believe that this is the first time Goodell and the NFL has lied. It's just the first time we are getting to see the whole process with the release of transcripts.

Who ever said that Goodell and the NFL were trustworthy? Who ever said the Patriots or any other team or player was trustworthy?

someone earlier used "The NFL has declared the Pats cheated twice" as proof of the Pats being serial cheaters. Doesn't seem like a stretch to say that is extending some level of trustworthy to the NFL and their findings.

That was me. The NFL is the entity which determines which players/teams cheat. Therefore, they've determined that NE cheated twice, so they are "serial" cheaters.

If I was found guilty of committing a felony by the government, even if a lot of people on a message board think the evidence against me was really flimsy, and the prosecutor and cops were "out to get me," I'd still be a felon, because the entity that determines that said I was.

 

[Bayhawks]

You posting other teams infractions does little-or-nothing in your attempted defense. #taintedforever

This. In the same way the 70s Steelers championships are tainted by steroid use, the Broncos titles are tainted by salary cap infringement, the Pats titles will always be tainted by their two scandals. It does not take away what they accomplished, but there will forever be a blemish, and their legacy will forever be tarnished. How much so depends on the person and their perspective.

But there really won't. Once this is done, very few people will ever even think about it again. When the Steelers are discussed, they are called 6X SB champions, not 4X tainted SB champions, 2X clean SB champions. Few people look at the Broncos and say "those 2 SBs don't count as much, b/c of the salary cap stuff." Likewise, after this issue has been put to bed, the NE Patriots will still be 4X SB champs; no asterisk.

 

[Anarchy99]

Therein lies the biggest topic to debate. To some, NE got caught jaywalking and going 56 in a 55 mph zone. To others, the Pats were convicted of multiple homicides and are now serial killers. Felonies or misdemeanors? To some people, the crimes were misdemeanors but the penalties were levied at the major felony level.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

#taint. Lolz.

 

[Godsbrother]

I don't understand why the findings of the NFL under Goodell's leadership is taken as gospel. He has shown that he will lie and manipulate the situation to fit his agenda. I find it hard to believe any "investigation" conducted under his watch that was not confirmed through other sources (court records, video, TMZ, etc).

If the non-Pats fans are just trolling, then ok, I get that. However, if it's not just trolling, why is the NFL under Goodell a trustworthy institution? I find it hard to believe that this is the first time Goodell and the NFL has lied. It's just the first time we are getting to see the whole process with the release of transcripts.

Who ever said that Goodell and the NFL were trustworthy? Who ever said the Patriots or any other team or player was trustworthy?

someone earlier used "The NFL has declared the Pats cheated twice" as proof of the Pats being serial cheaters. Doesn't seem like a stretch to say that is extending some level of trustworthy to the NFL and their findings.

The owners extended that trust to Goodell when they made him commissioner and the players extended that trust when they signed the CBA. I have no idea if Goodell is trustworthy but apparently the NFL owners and NFLPA thought so.

Us fans have no idea if any of them are trustworthy.

 

[Bossman]

is this the biggest thread of all time?

nope.. oh,wait .... now it is.

 

[LittlePhatty]

Therein lies the biggest topic to debate. To some, NE got caught jaywalking and going 56 in a 55 mph zone. To others, the Pats were convicted of multiple homicides and are now serial killers. Felonies or misdemeanors? To some people, the crimes were misdemeanors but the penalties were levied at the major felony level.

I'd consider myself neutral, don't care about the Patriots either way.To me, Spygate was a big deal, but Deflategate is a relatively minor offense that doesn't deserve all the attention it is getting.

Even if Brady did it on purpose, it's the NFL itself that stands to come out of this looking stupid for not having more procedural control over the equipment that is put into play.