Patriots being investigated after Colts game (1 Viewer)

[Godsbrother]

Therein lies the biggest topic to debate. To some, NE got caught jaywalking and going 56 in a 55 mph zone. To others, the Pats were convicted of multiple homicides and are now serial killers. Felonies or misdemeanors? To some people, the crimes were misdemeanors but the penalties were levied at the major felony level.

I'd consider myself neutral, don't care about the Patriots either way.To me, Spygate was a big deal, but Deflategate is a relatively minor offense that doesn't deserve all the attention it is getting.

Even if Brady did it on purpose, it's the NFL itself that stands to come out of this looking stupid for not having more procedural control over the equipment that is put into play.

Agreed.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

How about that time Mike Tomlin interfered with jacoby Jones returning a kick? Isn't that cheating or ruining the integrity of the game?

Yes, and he was vilified on these boards for it.

 

[Godsbrother]

How about that time Mike Tomlin interfered with jacoby Jones returning a kick? Isn't that cheating or ruining the integrity of the game?

Yes, and he was vilified on these boards for it.

The difference is that Tomlin was punished by the league and that was the end of it.

 

[moleculo]

Therein lies the biggest topic to debate. To some, NE got caught jaywalking and going 56 in a 55 mph zone. To others, the Pats were convicted of multiple homicides and are now serial killers. Felonies or misdemeanors? To some people, the crimes were misdemeanors but the penalties were levied at the major felony level.

it is very much like going 56 in a 55 mph zone...except there is a very competitive race with one winner, where 31 other competitors all stay within the speed limit.

minor infraction? Absolutely. However, in a game of inches, even the slightest of ill-gotten competitive advantages can be significant. In a billion dollar industry filled with highly competitive athletes and industry titans, there are no minor transgressions.

Give me a break with "felonies". TB12 is suspended for 4 games. Big deal. no one is going to prison, no one is sitting out a whole season. No one is taking away anyone's birthday, and I promise you, both Robert Kraft and Tom Brady's pocket books will be just fine at the end of the day.

 

[JuniorNB]

How about that time Mike Tomlin interfered with jacoby Jones returning a kick? Isn't that cheating or ruining the integrity of the game?

Yes, and he was vilified on these boards for it.

The difference is that Tomlin was punished by the league and that was the end of it.

This. Tomlin didn't lie. Tomlin didn't deny. Steeler fans didn't come up with conspiracy theories that the league was out to get them. And that all other fans are just jealous of their success.

 

[bostonfred]

it is very much like going 56 in a 55 mph zone...except there is a very competitive race with one winner, where 31 other competitors all stay within the speed limit.

Your team speeds . com

 

[bostonfred]

How about that time Mike Tomlin interfered with jacoby Jones returning a kick? Isn't that cheating or ruining the integrity of the game?

Yes, and he was vilified on these boards for it.

The difference is that Tomlin was punished by the league and that was the end of it.

This. Tomlin didn't lie. Tomlin didn't deny. Steeler fans didn't come up with conspiracy theories that the league was out to get them. And that all other fans are just jealous of their success.

He directly impacted the game on national television. No draft picks were taken, no suspension for the coach who endangered players and cost his opponent a touchdown. And there was a multi page thread here filled with steelers fans saying he didn't do anything wrong. There was no direct evidence that anyone deflated balls, it didn't appear to impact the game, the league launched a multi million dollar investigation taking months and the Patriots were penalized more harshly than anyone ever and the Patriots accepted their penalty without appeal, and when they finally drew the line at suspending Brady, when there's no evidence of him being involved, they finally appealed and that's what you think is worse? Gtfo.

 

[Run It Up]

is this the biggest thread of all time?

Not sure about the pool, but by the time I'm done it will be 500 pages deep.

The FFA has this crushed tho

 

[Godsbrother]

How about that time Mike Tomlin interfered with jacoby Jones returning a kick? Isn't that cheating or ruining the integrity of the game?

Yes, and he was vilified on these boards for it.

The difference is that Tomlin was punished by the league and that was the end of it.

This. Tomlin didn't lie. Tomlin didn't deny. Steeler fans didn't come up with conspiracy theories that the league was out to get them. And that all other fans are just jealous of their success.

He directly impacted the game on national television. No draft picks were taken, no suspension for the coach who endangered players and cost his opponent a touchdown. And there was a multi page thread here filled with steelers fans saying he didn't do anything wrong.There was no direct evidence that anyone deflated balls, it didn't appear to impact the game, the league launched a multi million dollar investigation taking months and the Patriots were penalized more harshly than anyone ever and the Patriots accepted their penalty without appeal, and when they finally drew the line at suspending Brady, when there's no evidence of him being involved, they finally appealed and that's what you think is worse? Gtfo.

Tomlin stated that he was watching the return on the scoreboard and didn't realize he was on the field until he saw Jones coming. I'm guessing that Goodell believed it and felt there was no premeditated attempt to affect the outcome of the play so he was merely fined ($100K).

On the other hand if Goodell believed the Wells report then that is a case of a team purposely trying to cheat and then cover it up.

Totally different situation, assuming that Goodell believed Tomlin's story and didn't believe Brady. If not then Goodell just hates Tom Brady and the Patriots and is willing to go to court to screw them any way he can.

 

[bostonfred]

I think that is a perfect example of how the steelers fans still haven't admitted their coach is a cheater.

 

[Godsbrother]

I think that is a perfect example of how the steelers fans still haven't admitted their coach is a cheater.

I didn't say anything about what I believed. All I said was what Goodell must have been thinking judging by Tomlin's punishment.

 

[Run It Up]

We all know Goodell doesn't like black people. But how can we explain Mike Tomlin skating on intentionally interfering in a game, the most egregious crime in the NFL over the past 25 years.

Simple, Mike Tomlin is a robot crafted to subvert the Rooney Rule. Suspending him would have directly conflicted with the NFLs highest priority, maintaining the racial dominance of the NFLs power classes.

Spoiler

#aliens

 

[Godsbrother]

We all know Goodell doesn't like black people. But how can we explain Mike Tomlin skating on intentionally interfering in a game, the most egregious crime in the NFL over the past 25 years.

Simple, Mike Tomlin is a robot crafted to subvert the Rooney Rule.

 

[bostonfred]

And lol at giving him bonus points for not appealing a 100k fine, zero suspension and zero loss of draft picks. Tomlin got punished and that was the end of it? He was caught on film, he smiled at the end and clearly knew what had happened, he admitted he was watching the whole play while he was interfering with it, and he got a trivial fine.

I know we waste time saluting our armed forces and firefighters but the real heroes are guys like Tomlin.

 

[Godsbrother]

And lol at giving him bonus points for not appealing a 100k fine, zero suspension and zero loss of draft picks. Tomlin got punished and that was the end of it? He was caught on film, he smiled at the end and clearly knew what had happened, he admitted he was watching the whole play while he was interfering with it, and he got a trivial fine.

I know we waste time saluting our armed forces and firefighters but the real heroes are guys like Tomlin.

Okay so then you explain why Tomlin wasn't suspended. Is Goodell a closet Steelers fan? Does he hate the Ravens? Is he best buddies with Rooney? Was race a factor -- is he afraid to suspend a black head coach?

 

[LittlePhatty]

I know we waste time saluting our armed forces and firefighters but the real heroes are guys like Tomlin.

If nothing else, this thread is a highly entertaining reminder of how some people's entire lives revolve around the fact that they happen to live in the same town as a professional sports team.

 

[treat88]

Goes to my earlier questions.

Tomlin obviously cheated on that play.

Is there something different about what the Pats have been punished for now twice, or is it simply the league office being out to get the Pats?

Id argue the former, but if someone has some legit evidence it's the latter, I'd love to hear it.

 

[Old Smiley]

And lol at giving him bonus points for not appealing a 100k fine, zero suspension and zero loss of draft picks. Tomlin got punished and that was the end of it? He was caught on film, he smiled at the end and clearly knew what had happened, he admitted he was watching the whole play while he was interfering with it, and he got a trivial fine.

I know we waste time saluting our armed forces and firefighters but the real heroes are guys like Tomlin.

Okay so then you explain why Tomlin wasn't suspended. Is Goodell a closet Steelers fan? Does he hate the Ravens? Is he best buddies with Rooney? Was race a factor -- is he afraid to suspend a black head coach?

Because Goodell's first and strongest instinct is to make whatever it is go away fast. The media didn't go nuts so Roger's second instinct didn't have to kick in. Second instinct being "punish somebody until it goes away".

 

[espnespn]

I don't understand why the findings of the NFL under Goodell's leadership is taken as gospel. He has shown that he will lie and manipulate the situation to fit his agenda. I find it hard to believe any "investigation" conducted under his watch that was not confirmed through other sources (court records, video, TMZ, etc).

If the non-Pats fans are just trolling, then ok, I get that. However, if it's not just trolling, why is the NFL under Goodell a trustworthy institution? I find it hard to believe that this is the first time Goodell and the NFL has lied. It's just the first time we are getting to see the whole process with the release of transcripts.

Who ever said that Goodell and the NFL were trustworthy? Who ever said the Patriots or any other team or player was trustworthy?

So Tom Brady had nothing to do with the deflating of balls to give himself and his team an advantage? Because the commissioner isn't trustworthy. Makes sense.

No, Tom Brady had nothing to do with deflating during the AFC game because there is no proof. That's what the judge said.

A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

 

[treat88]

And lol at giving him bonus points for not appealing a 100k fine, zero suspension and zero loss of draft picks. Tomlin got punished and that was the end of it? He was caught on film, he smiled at the end and clearly knew what had happened, he admitted he was watching the whole play while he was interfering with it, and he got a trivial fine.

I know we waste time saluting our armed forces and firefighters but the real heroes are guys like Tomlin.

Okay so then you explain why Tomlin wasn't suspended. Is Goodell a closet Steelers fan? Does he hate the Ravens? Is he best buddies with Rooney? Was race a factor -- is he afraid to suspend a black head coach?

Because Goodell's first and strongest instinct is to make whatever it is go away fast. The media didn't go nuts so Roger's second instinct didn't have to kick in. Second instinct being "punish somebody until it goes away".

I agree with this and I think those instincts go directly to his primary, and essentially only, consideration which is $.

All Roger cares about is the bottom line.

 

[bostonfred]

There's indirect evidence suggesting Kensil was pushing an anti pats agenda, but I don't think it's a big conspiracy. I think the league just sucks at dealing with these things.

The Browns cheated? OK whatever. The Patriots won three superbowls and went to an afc championship in the last six years and got caught videotaping something? Uh oh. Then the media runs with it and the NFL has to come down hard. It doesn't really matter what the rule violation was, the media was talking about taping walk throughs, knowing plays before they happened, and all kinds of craziness.

The ray rice thing was a joke. Uh oh, a star player punched his girlfriend in a hotel elevator. We better suspend him. Oh no, the media got hold of the tape? Better suspend him again.

So when Tomlin cheats in the middle of the season and the league can give him a fine and be done with it, they try to get it over with quickly and move on to the next week of games. But when the pats get accused of something in the middle of the superbowl prep week, it's a national news story. And with kensil feeding misinformation to the press, and the NFL refusing to recant it, the story blew up all over again.

There's no question that a coach actually interfering with the players in the game on a likely touchdown impacted the results. We don't even know if the balls were deflated. But the timing and the media coverage dictated the penalty because the league sucks at this stuff.

 

[Anarchy99]

And lol at giving him bonus points for not appealing a 100k fine, zero suspension and zero loss of draft picks. Tomlin got punished and that was the end of it? He was caught on film, he smiled at the end and clearly knew what had happened, he admitted he was watching the whole play while he was interfering with it, and he got a trivial fine.

I know we waste time saluting our armed forces and firefighters but the real heroes are guys like Tomlin.

Okay so then you explain why Tomlin wasn't suspended. Is Goodell a closet Steelers fan? Does he hate the Ravens? Is he best buddies with Rooney? Was race a factor -- is he afraid to suspend a black head coach?

Because Goodell's first and strongest instinct is to make whatever it is go away fast. The media didn't go nuts so Roger's second instinct didn't have to kick in. Second instinct being "punish somebody until it goes away".

I agree with this and I think those instincts go directly to his primary, and essentially only, consideration which is $.

All Roger cares about is the bottom line.

If all the league cared about was $$$, then why punish the Patriots at all? Are they making anymore $$$ by dragging this out and punishing Brady?

I still think the way the league should have gone was to have sent the Patriots (and all other teams) a stern memo like they did in Spygate that they knew what they were doing to the footballs and this was their one warning. Knock it off, and if you do it again and we catch you the sheet is going to hit the fan. All of this could have been avoided and kept internally, but they decided they wanted to play this out in public, which IMO was just plain dumb. It makes the entire league look really, really bad.

 

[Godsbrother]

And lol at giving him bonus points for not appealing a 100k fine, zero suspension and zero loss of draft picks. Tomlin got punished and that was the end of it? He was caught on film, he smiled at the end and clearly knew what had happened, he admitted he was watching the whole play while he was interfering with it, and he got a trivial fine.

I know we waste time saluting our armed forces and firefighters but the real heroes are guys like Tomlin.

Okay so then you explain why Tomlin wasn't suspended. Is Goodell a closet Steelers fan? Does he hate the Ravens? Is he best buddies with Rooney? Was race a factor -- is he afraid to suspend a black head coach?

Because Goodell's first and strongest instinct is to make whatever it is go away fast. The media didn't go nuts so Roger's second instinct didn't have to kick in. Second instinct being "punish somebody until it goes away".

I agree with this and I think those instincts go directly to his primary, and essentially only, consideration which is $.

All Roger cares about is the bottom line.

I could buy this too if he had just said that there was insufficient evidence that any balls were tampered with. The whole thing would have been over immediately

 

[rick6668]

I know we waste time saluting our armed forces and firefighters but the real heroes are guys like Tomlin.

If nothing else, this thread is a highly entertaining reminder of how some people's entire lives revolve around the fact that they happen to live in the same town as a professional sports team.

 

[treat88]

There's indirect evidence suggesting Kensil was pushing an anti pats agenda, but I don't think it's a big conspiracy. I think the league just sucks at dealing with these things.

The Browns cheated? OK whatever. The Patriots won three superbowls and went to an afc championship in the last six years and got caught videotaping something? Uh oh. Then the media runs with it and the NFL has to come down hard. It doesn't really matter what the rule violation was, the media was talking about taping walk throughs, knowing plays before they happened, and all kinds of craziness.

The ray rice thing was a joke. Uh oh, a star player punched his girlfriend in a hotel elevator. We better suspend him. Oh no, the media got hold of the tape? Better suspend him again.

So when Tomlin cheats in the middle of the season and the league can give him a fine and be done with it, they try to get it over with quickly and move on to the next week of games. But when the pats get accused of something in the middle of the superbowl prep week, it's a national news story. And with kensil feeding misinformation to the press, and the NFL refusing to recant it, the story blew up all over again.

There's no question that a coach actually interfering with the players in the game on a likely touchdown impacted the results. We don't even know if the balls were deflated. But the timing and the media coverage dictated the penalty because the league sucks at this stuff.

Maybe so.

I don't necessarily agree, but I think the punishments levied in both Spy/Deflategate speak to someone/s in the league office believing that the Pats did what they are accused of and that it had an effect on competitive advantage. I also believe they likely have access to information we don't, but that's not the point.

The difference being Tomlins actions are akin to a penalty, say PI on a sure touchdown, on a single play. An egregious penalty, but still effecting only a single play. Downstream plays are obviously indirectly impacted just as they are with any flag thrown.

However, if I take the stance on the Pats actions that they are guilty and it gave them any type of advantage, then that means those actions had a direct effect on every single play of multiple games calling into question the validity of those outcomes.

That's important, because that then threatens league $. Words like "fixed" and "integrity" start getting thrown around which drives off potential investors and new league locations. Those words don't come up when a flag is thrown, or Tomlin obstructs a player, or Ben is accused of rape because those things don't have the same direct impact on every play within every game.

Again, I personally don't believe that about the Pats actions, but I think it's clear the NFL front office does and I think the punishments levied reflect that. What the Pats have now, twice, been accused of has the potential to negatively impact league revenue in ways all the other yourteamcheats.com comparisons don't.

 

[JuniorNB]

There's indirect evidence suggesting Kensil was pushing an anti pats agenda, but I don't think it's a big conspiracy. I think the league just sucks at dealing with these things.

The Browns cheated? OK whatever. The Patriots won three superbowls and went to an afc championship in the last six years and got caught videotaping something? Uh oh. Then the media runs with it and the NFL has to come down hard. It doesn't really matter what the rule violation was, the media was talking about taping walk throughs, knowing plays before they happened, and all kinds of craziness.

The ray rice thing was a joke. Uh oh, a star player punched his girlfriend in a hotel elevator. We better suspend him. Oh no, the media got hold of the tape? Better suspend him again.

So when Tomlin cheats in the middle of the season and the league can give him a fine and be done with it, they try to get it over with quickly and move on to the next week of games. But when the pats get accused of something in the middle of the superbowl prep week, it's a national news story. And with kensil feeding misinformation to the press, and the NFL refusing to recant it, the story blew up all over again.

There's no question that a coach actually interfering with the players in the game on a likely touchdown impacted the results. We don't even know if the balls were deflated. But the timing and the media coverage dictated the penalty because the league sucks at this stuff.

Maybe so.

I don't necessarily agree, but I think the punishments levied in both Spy/Deflategate speak to someone/s in the league office believing that the Pats did what they are accused of and that it had an effect on competitive advantage. I also believe they likely have access to information we don't, but that's not the point.

The difference being Tomlins actions are akin to a penalty, say PI on a sure touchdown, on a single play. An egregious penalty, but still effecting only a single play. Downstream plays are obviously indirectly impacted just as they are with any flag thrown.

However, if I take the stance on the Pats actions that they are guilty and it gave them any type of advantage, then that means those actions had a direct effect on every single play of multiple games calling into question the validity of those outcomes.

That's important, because that then threatens league $. Words like "fixed" and "integrity" start getting thrown around which drives off potential investors and new league locations. Those words don't come up when a flag is thrown, or Tomlin obstructs a player, or Ben is accused of rape because those things don't have the same direct impact on every play within every game.

Again, I personally don't believe that about the Pats actions, but I think it's clear the NFL front office does and I think the punishments levied reflect that. What the Pats have now, twice, been accused of has the potential to negatively impact league revenue in ways all the other yourteamcheats.com comparisons don't.

This guy gets it.

 

[bostonfred]

Everything you said is true without the league believing anything more happened. If the media opens the narrative that something more happened, it doesn't matter what really happened. Where you see the league covering up some extra offenses, I see the league coming down overly hard to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

The league literally showed the spygate tapes on repeat to the media. They spent millions in an exhaustive report about ball deflation. It's hard to imagine thinking that they had even more info up their sleeve and still haven't shared it.

But we also know that they let the media imagine things that didn't happen. There were reports of taped walkthroughs that were later debunked. The newspapers apologized. People suggested it was illegal to tape signals. It wasn't. It was only illegal from a specific location. The league punished the pats for the media's imagined version of events, and people still think there might have been even more to the story.

That's where the NFL failed. Same thing goes with deflategate. The Patriots might literally not have done anything wrong, and for the second time in the belichick/Brady era they've gotten the stiffest penalty in league history anyways. If they did do something, most people seem to agree that they were punished too harshly and out of scale with the offense. Yet there are still people who believe that must indicate that the league is covering up even more illegal activity, even when all evidence shows that they don't even have proof of the thing they're punishing the Patriots for.

In an effort to squash the perception of scandal they just made it worse. If you really believe that their priority is to protect the perception of the integrity of the game them both spygate and deflategate have been massive failures by the NFL.

 

[JuniorNB]

Everything you said is true without the league believing anything more happened. If the media opens the narrative that something more happened, it doesn't matter what really happened. Where you see the league covering up some extra offenses, I see the league coming down overly hard to avoid the appearance of impropriety.

The league literally showed the spygate tapes on repeat to the media. They spent millions in an exhaustive report about ball deflation. It's hard to imagine thinking that they had even more info up their sleeve and still haven't shared it.

But we also know that they let the media imagine things that didn't happen. There were reports of taped walkthroughs that were later debunked. The newspapers apologized. People suggested it was illegal to tape signals. It wasn't. It was only illegal from a specific location. The league punished the pats for the media's imagined version of events, and people still think there might have been even more to the story.

That's where the NFL failed. Same thing goes with deflategate. The Patriots might literally not have done anything wrong, and for the second time in the belichick/Brady era they've gotten the stiffest penalty in league history anyways. If they did do something, most people seem to agree that they were punished too harshly and out of scale with the offense. Yet there are still people who believe that must indicate that the league is covering up even more illegal activity, even when all evidence shows that they don't even have proof of the thing they're punishing the Patriots for.

In an effort to squash the perception of scandal they just made it worse. If you really believe that their priority is to protect the perception of the integrity of the game them both spygate and deflategate have been massive failures by the NFL.

I'm not sure how you can say that the might literally have done nothing wrong. I realize your name is Boston Fred, and that predetermines your opinion on this, but there is no way possible that New England did nothing wrong. I suppose there's a miniscule possibility that someone other than Brady ordered it, but I sure as hell can't imagine who that could be. Kraft very quickly accepted his fine and loss of draft picks. Those picks are a huge deal. You never heard squat from Belichick about it either. Except for his failed attempt at playing the Science Guy early on., An owner and head coach would not sign off on those two picks if they didn't realize they did something wrong. Nor would they have immediately fired the equipment guys. And how on earth do explain that one of their nicknames was The Deflator?? Please don't tell me you bought the weight loss story. Then Brady destroys his phone on the day of his meeting with Wells.

A lot of Pats fans love pointing out how the NFL has mishandled the investigation. And I agree with that. I don't like the appeal process being handled by the very same guy who doled out the penalty to begin with. But the NFLPA agreed to that. I don't like how a lot of things were leaked to the media/public. But just because the NFL hasn't handled it properly, doesn't change the mountain of evidence that points to New England's guilt. This is no different than Ryan Braun winning his first steroid appeal because the specimen wasn't handled properly. Do I think the penalty was too stiff for the infraction? Yes I do. But had Brady and the Pats taken the Andy Pettite route instead of the Rafael Palmeiro route, perhaps that wouldn't have been the case. Also, if the Pats weren't repeat offenders.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

The palmero analogy is problematic because of circumstanciality and lack of prior notice.

 

[GreekFreak]

And lol at giving him bonus points for not appealing a 100k fine, zero suspension and zero loss of draft picks. Tomlin got punished and that was the end of it? He was caught on film, he smiled at the end and clearly knew what had happened, he admitted he was watching the whole play while he was interfering with it, and he got a trivial fine.

I know we waste time saluting our armed forces and firefighters but the real heroes are guys like Tomlin.

The NFL can't even do that right, didn't they get outed as getting paid for having all those military pre-game ceremonies?

 

[JuniorNB]

The palmero analogy is problematic because of circumstanciality and lack of prior notice.

Brady, like all professional athletes who get caught cheating, is denying it. The lying and denying go along with the cheating. It's human nature. And, expectedly, Brady's first instinct was to deny. Andy Pettite is about the only athlete I know of who cheated and then came clean. And he is the only one that still maintains a squeaky clean image because of it. People will accept screw ups. We know how competitive sports are. Had Brady come clean right away, he would have most-likely saved New England those two lost draft picks. And his suspension. And the fine would have been much less. Instead, he did what they all do. I suppose it's all a part of trying to save their image. Their legacy. And now he's in so deep that he has no choice but to keep fighting this. We're two days away from the week three preseason game. The dress rehearsal for the regular season. And the Patriots still don't know who they should be starting. The amount of selfishness displayed by Brady is unbelievable at this point. Talk about a distraction.

 

[bostonfred]

I don't really care if they're guilty of deflating footballs, but since you asked:

1) balls drop by close to 2 psi on a cold game day, and the largest difference explained by deliberate deflation is less than half a psi. This was hardly their first outdoor game. So why would they manually deflate balls by such a tiny amount when nature was going to do the rest? I find the argument that the reef used the Guage he thought he did more compelling than the argument that they cheated, but only a little.

2) the deflator nickname is not particularly concerning to me because it wasn't his actual nickname, and his job included the legal inflation and deflation of footballs. I also don't believe that anyone has a dorito in place of their dink.

3) kraft has already said he regrets not fighting the penalty but he's always been 1 of 32 and willing to take his licks to make the league successful. He also made his decision before people toe the Wells report to shreds. That wasn't an admission of guilt, it was acceptance of the league findings. Now that he's had time to review them, like everyone else, he is more skeptical and came out as vocally against the league as I've ever heard him

4) it was initially reported that the league asked the Patriots to suspend the equipment guys. Then the league denied it. I don't know the truth and neither do you so I don't consider that evidence one way or the other.

5) the "destroying the phone" meme isn't evidence of anything, either. The nflpa wanted this case to go to court from day one. Between their counsel and the NFL saying they didn't need his phone and then that they did, there are plenty of reasons for him to have reasonably replaced his phone. It's also possible that he didn't want questionable but innoccuous private texts to be misinterpreted the way dorito dink's were.

I agree that there's plenty of smoke here and that when there's smoke. There's probably fire. It's also possible he didn't do anything and that no balls were deflated. I'm not making categorical statements either way. They might literally have done nothing wrong. They might have done something wrong. I don't know. But what i do know is that for the NFL to have come down as hard as they did without firm evidence doesn't mean they have even more evidence of wrong doing in some back room somewhere. They may lose a court case that hurts them in future arbitrations and labor negotiations. This is all of their evidence, yet they've somehow created the impression that they're might be even more out there when the whole purpose of this was to protect the perception of the integrity of the game. That's a failure no matter how you look at it.

 

[Anarchy99]

The palmero analogy is problematic because of circumstanciality and lack of prior notice.

Let me make it easier for you to understand. Brady, like all professional athletes who get caught cheating, is denying it. The lying and denying go along with the cheating. It's human nature. And, expectedly, Brady's first instinct was to deny. Andy Pettite is about the only athlete I know of who cheated and then came clean. And he is the only one that still maintains a squeaky clean image because of it. People will accept screw ups. We know how competitive sports are. Had Brady come clean right away, he would have most-likely saved New England those two lost draft picks. And his suspension. And the fine would have been much less. Instead, he did what they all do. I suppose it's all a part of trying to save their image. Their legacy. And now he's in so deep that he has no choice but to keep fighting this. We're two days away from the week three preseason game. The dress rehearsal for the regular season. And the Patriots still don't know who they should be starting. The amount of selfishness displayed by Brady is unbelievable at this point. Talk about a distraction.

As I mentioned probably 150 pages ago, I don't see the bolded part as realistic. If Brady said just after the Colts game that he ordered the Code Red and told the ball deflating baboons to let air out, there would have been people climbing the highest mountain and demanding that the Colts represent the AFC in the Super Bowl or that Brady should have been suspended if they let NE play at all. Instead of worrying about whether the footballs were deflated for the AFCC game, there would have been calls to launch an investigation into just how long NE had been letting air out of the balls to decide how long the suspension / penalty for NE should be.

Fessing up might reduce the penalties for other franchises, but for NE, I think it would have spiraled the other way and people would have wanted vengeance for admitted cheating.

 

[JuniorNB]

I don't really care if they're guilty of deflating footballs, but since you asked:

1) balls drop by close to 2 psi on a cold game day, and the largest difference explained by deliberate deflation is less than half a psi. This was hardly their first outdoor game. So why would they manually deflate balls by such a tiny amount when nature was going to do the rest? I find the argument that the reef used the Guage he thought he did more compelling than the argument that they cheated, but only a little.

2) the deflator nickname is not particularly concerning to me because it wasn't his actual nickname, and his job included the legal inflation and deflation of footballs. I also don't believe that anyone has a dorito in place of their dink.

3) kraft has already said he regrets not fighting the penalty but he's always been 1 of 32 and willing to take his licks to make the league successful. He also made his decision before people toe the Wells report to shreds. That wasn't an admission of guilt, it was acceptance of the league findings. Now that he's had time to review them, like everyone else, he is more skeptical and came out as vocally against the league as I've ever heard him

4) it was initially reported that the league asked the Patriots to suspend the equipment guys. Then the league denied it. I don't know the truth and neither do you so I don't consider that evidence one way or the other.

5) the "destroying the phone" meme isn't evidence of anything, either. The nflpa wanted this case to go to court from day one. Between their counsel and the NFL saying they didn't need his phone and then that they did, there are plenty of reasons for him to have reasonably replaced his phone. It's also possible that he didn't want questionable but innoccuous private texts to be misinterpreted the way dorito dink's were.

I agree that there's plenty of smoke here and that when there's smoke. There's probably fire. It's also possible he didn't do anything and that no balls were deflated. I'm not making categorical statements either way. They might literally have done nothing wrong. They might have done something wrong. I don't know. But what i do know is that for the NFL to have come down as hard as they did without firm evidence doesn't mean they have even more evidence of wrong doing in some back room somewhere. They may lose a court case that hurts them in future arbitrations and labor negotiations. This is all of their evidence, yet they've somehow created the impression that they're might be even more out there when the whole purpose of this was to protect the perception of the integrity of the game. That's a failure no matter how you look at it.

So "The Deflator" and destroyed phone mean nothing to you? That is the true test of a Patriots fan. Not sure why I decided to try to talk logic with a guy with the word Boston in his username. The team DID fire the ball guys. Kraft DID immediately accept the stiffest fine and draft loss in league history. Between The Deflator, the destroyed phone, firing the ball boys, and Kraft's willingness to accept penalty, only a Patriots fan would have any doubt about what happened.

Now, if you want to go the Ryan Braun route and simply hope to get off on technicalities, then that's understandable. But to pretend they didn't cheat (again) is the worst case of blind homerism I've ever seen.

 

[Godsbrother]

The palmero analogy is problematic because of circumstanciality and lack of prior notice.

Brady, like all professional athletes who get caught cheating, is denying it. The lying and denying go along with the cheating. It's human nature. And, expectedly, Brady's first instinct was to deny. Andy Pettite is about the only athlete I know of who cheated and then came clean. And he is the only one that still maintains a squeaky clean image because of it. People will accept screw ups. We know how competitive sports are. Had Brady come clean right away, he would have most-likely saved New England those two lost draft picks. And his suspension. And the fine would have been much less. Instead, he did what they all do. I suppose it's all a part of trying to save their image. Their legacy. And now he's in so deep that he has no choice but to keep fighting this. We're two days away from the week three preseason game. The dress rehearsal for the regular season. And the Patriots still don't know who they should be starting. The amount of selfishness displayed by Brady is unbelievable at this point. Talk about a distraction.

Hey if I am Brady I would never admit to cheating. Even if he loses his appeal and misses 4 games the Pats likely cruise to a division championship. At worst sitting out 4 games cost them a little in the playoff seeding. Better that than being labeled a cheater.

I don't blame Brady one bit for not admitting it.

 

[JuniorNB]

The palmero analogy is problematic because of circumstanciality and lack of prior notice.

Let me make it easier for you to understand. Brady, like all professional athletes who get caught cheating, is denying it. The lying and denying go along with the cheating. It's human nature. And, expectedly, Brady's first instinct was to deny. Andy Pettite is about the only athlete I know of who cheated and then came clean. And he is the only one that still maintains a squeaky clean image because of it. People will accept screw ups. We know how competitive sports are. Had Brady come clean right away, he would have most-likely saved New England those two lost draft picks. And his suspension. And the fine would have been much less. Instead, he did what they all do. I suppose it's all a part of trying to save their image. Their legacy. And now he's in so deep that he has no choice but to keep fighting this. We're two days away from the week three preseason game. The dress rehearsal for the regular season. And the Patriots still don't know who they should be starting. The amount of selfishness displayed by Brady is unbelievable at this point. Talk about a distraction.

As I mentioned probably 150 pages ago, I don't see the bolded part as realistic. If Brady said just after the Colts game that he ordered the Code Red and told the ball deflating baboons to let air out, there would have been people climbing the highest mountain and demanding that the Colts represent the AFC in the Super Bowl or that Brady should have been suspended if they let NE play at all. Instead of worrying about whether the footballs were deflated for the AFCC game, there would have been calls to launch an investigation into just how long NE had been letting air out of the balls to decide how long the suspension / penalty for NE should be.

Fessing up might reduce the penalties for other franchises, but for NE, I think it would have spiraled the other way and people would have wanted vengeance for admitted cheating.

I'm sure some people would have been calling for them to have to forfeit that game or have Brady suspended for the Super Bowl. But in reality, none of that would have happened. Brady could have very diplomatically admitted guilt, but also innocence. I actually wrote a short speech on another site months ago of what Brady should have said. It would have been him taking blame, while not 100% taking blame. I'll try to remember and write it again:

TOM BRADY. The day after the discovery of deflated balls.

"I understand that our equipment managers let some air out of the game balls after the referees inspected them yesterday. I guess I'm to blame for that. I put a lot of pressure on those guys to have everything just the way I want it. I knew it was going to be on the cool side and told them to keep the air pressure low. The way I like it in that weather. They took it upon themselves to deflate the balls after the inspection. Which is not what I meant for them to do. I meant to inflate them to the lowest possible measurement that would pass inspection. I'm sure the guys did what they thought would please me, even though I never meant for them to break any rules. I take full responsibility and apologize to the Colts, the league, and the fans of the NFL."

BOOM. Done. He's taking blame because of how hard he is on his ball boys, but never admitting a blatant disregard for the rules. I guarantee the team would have gotten a fine and that would have been it./ The Patriot haters would have screamed that the Pats cheated again. The Brady haters would have called him a liar. But it would have made him look SO much better than he does now. And this wouldn't still be a distraction going into the new season.

 

[JuniorNB]

The palmero analogy is problematic because of circumstanciality and lack of prior notice.

Brady, like all professional athletes who get caught cheating, is denying it. The lying and denying go along with the cheating. It's human nature. And, expectedly, Brady's first instinct was to deny. Andy Pettite is about the only athlete I know of who cheated and then came clean. And he is the only one that still maintains a squeaky clean image because of it. People will accept screw ups. We know how competitive sports are. Had Brady come clean right away, he would have most-likely saved New England those two lost draft picks. And his suspension. And the fine would have been much less. Instead, he did what they all do. I suppose it's all a part of trying to save their image. Their legacy. And now he's in so deep that he has no choice but to keep fighting this. We're two days away from the week three preseason game. The dress rehearsal for the regular season. And the Patriots still don't know who they should be starting. The amount of selfishness displayed by Brady is unbelievable at this point. Talk about a distraction.

Hey if I am Brady I would never admit to cheating. Even if he loses his appeal and misses 4 games the Pats likely cruise to a division championship. At worst sitting out 4 games cost them a little in the playoff seeding. Better that than being labeled a cheater.

I don't blame Brady one bit for not admitting it.

Do you think that there's one person out there that it would change their opinion of him? All this denying and appealing isn't making anyone think he's innocent that didn't already think he was innocent. And the judge's decision next week isn't changing anyone's opinion either.

 

[Anarchy99]

I don't really care if they're guilty of deflating footballs, but since you asked:

1) balls drop by close to 2 psi on a cold game day, and the largest difference explained by deliberate deflation is less than half a psi. This was hardly their first outdoor game. So why would they manually deflate balls by such a tiny amount when nature was going to do the rest? I find the argument that the reef used the Guage he thought he did more compelling than the argument that they cheated, but only a little.

2) the deflator nickname is not particularly concerning to me because it wasn't his actual nickname, and his job included the legal inflation and deflation of footballs. I also don't believe that anyone has a dorito in place of their dink.

3) kraft has already said he regrets not fighting the penalty but he's always been 1 of 32 and willing to take his licks to make the league successful. He also made his decision before people toe the Wells report to shreds. That wasn't an admission of guilt, it was acceptance of the league findings. Now that he's had time to review them, like everyone else, he is more skeptical and came out as vocally against the league as I've ever heard him

4) it was initially reported that the league asked the Patriots to suspend the equipment guys. Then the league denied it. I don't know the truth and neither do you so I don't consider that evidence one way or the other.

5) the "destroying the phone" meme isn't evidence of anything, either. The nflpa wanted this case to go to court from day one. Between their counsel and the NFL saying they didn't need his phone and then that they did, there are plenty of reasons for him to have reasonably replaced his phone. It's also possible that he didn't want questionable but innoccuous private texts to be misinterpreted the way dorito dink's were.

I agree that there's plenty of smoke here and that when there's smoke. There's probably fire. It's also possible he didn't do anything and that no balls were deflated. I'm not making categorical statements either way. They might literally have done nothing wrong. They might have done something wrong. I don't know. But what i do know is that for the NFL to have come down as hard as they did without firm evidence doesn't mean they have even more evidence of wrong doing in some back room somewhere. They may lose a court case that hurts them in future arbitrations and labor negotiations. This is all of their evidence, yet they've somehow created the impression that they're might be even more out there when the whole purpose of this was to protect the perception of the integrity of the game. That's a failure no matter how you look at it.

So "The Deflator" and destroyed phone mean nothing to you? That is the true test of a Patriots fan. Not sure why I decided to try to talk logic with a guy with the word Boston in his username. The team DID fire the ball guys. Kraft DID immediately accept the stiffest fine and draft loss in league history. Between The Deflator, the destroyed phone, firing the ball boys, and Kraft's willingness to accept penalty, only a Patriots fan would have any doubt about what happened.

Now, if you want to go the Ryan Braun route and simply hope to get off on technicalities, then that's understandable. But to pretend they didn't cheat (again) is the worst case of blind homerism I've ever seen.

This post is the perfect example of who knows what to believe in terms of what was reported and how accurate the information has been. (You are entitled to your opinion of what happened and how severe an infraction it is.)

Depending upon what you believe and what you've read . . .

- The Patriots were told by the league to suspend the ball attendants (who are not fired but suspended).

- By league ownership rules, Kraft was not entitled to an appeal like players are, so his only recourse was to sue the league and the 31 other owners.

- The huge majority of what was on the phone has been recreated. A phone that the league had no legal right to demand in the first place. And a phone that they would already have known what Brady had texted because they already had the phones from everyone else involved anyway.

- The destroyed phone then becomes a P.R. vehicle that the league then used to make Brady look bad. Oh, and Wells said he didn't want or need the phone anyway.

- And my biggest thing to consider in all of this is that the NFL did not give a rat's patootie about the inflation of the football in any game in the history of football until after that game. That alone should be evidence that no one really cared or thought it was a big deal.

I have said all along that the Patriots probably did what they are accused of at some point and probably have gotten away with way worse. But sticking to the infraction at hand, many people feel that it is a minor misdemeanor . . . worthy of a fine or maybe an in-game penalty. If people want to say they cheated, fine. If people want to say they broke the rules, even better. But a lot of people are making this out like they are repeat child molesters or multi murderers. Plenty of temas over the years have done things that are against the rules, yet people aren't screaming that they were uber cheaters.

So sure, call them cheaters, but I would call them cheaters like the IRS would call people that took a $25 tax deduction that really wasn't justified. Would the government then give them a $1 million fine and lock them away for 2 years for tax evasion over $25?

 

[JuniorNB]

I don't really care if they're guilty of deflating footballs, but since you asked:

1) balls drop by close to 2 psi on a cold game day, and the largest difference explained by deliberate deflation is less than half a psi. This was hardly their first outdoor game. So why would they manually deflate balls by such a tiny amount when nature was going to do the rest? I find the argument that the reef used the Guage he thought he did more compelling than the argument that they cheated, but only a little.

2) the deflator nickname is not particularly concerning to me because it wasn't his actual nickname, and his job included the legal inflation and deflation of footballs. I also don't believe that anyone has a dorito in place of their dink.

3) kraft has already said he regrets not fighting the penalty but he's always been 1 of 32 and willing to take his licks to make the league successful. He also made his decision before people toe the Wells report to shreds. That wasn't an admission of guilt, it was acceptance of the league findings. Now that he's had time to review them, like everyone else, he is more skeptical and came out as vocally against the league as I've ever heard him

4) it was initially reported that the league asked the Patriots to suspend the equipment guys. Then the league denied it. I don't know the truth and neither do you so I don't consider that evidence one way or the other.

5) the "destroying the phone" meme isn't evidence of anything, either. The nflpa wanted this case to go to court from day one. Between their counsel and the NFL saying they didn't need his phone and then that they did, there are plenty of reasons for him to have reasonably replaced his phone. It's also possible that he didn't want questionable but innoccuous private texts to be misinterpreted the way dorito dink's were.

I agree that there's plenty of smoke here and that when there's smoke. There's probably fire. It's also possible he didn't do anything and that no balls were deflated. I'm not making categorical statements either way. They might literally have done nothing wrong. They might have done something wrong. I don't know. But what i do know is that for the NFL to have come down as hard as they did without firm evidence doesn't mean they have even more evidence of wrong doing in some back room somewhere. They may lose a court case that hurts them in future arbitrations and labor negotiations. This is all of their evidence, yet they've somehow created the impression that they're might be even more out there when the whole purpose of this was to protect the perception of the integrity of the game. That's a failure no matter how you look at it.

So "The Deflator" and destroyed phone mean nothing to you? That is the true test of a Patriots fan. Not sure why I decided to try to talk logic with a guy with the word Boston in his username. The team DID fire the ball guys. Kraft DID immediately accept the stiffest fine and draft loss in league history. Between The Deflator, the destroyed phone, firing the ball boys, and Kraft's willingness to accept penalty, only a Patriots fan would have any doubt about what happened.

Now, if you want to go the Ryan Braun route and simply hope to get off on technicalities, then that's understandable. But to pretend they didn't cheat (again) is the worst case of blind homerism I've ever seen.

So sure, call them cheaters, but I would call them cheaters like the IRS would call people that took a $25 tax deduction that really wasn't justified. Would the government then give them a $1 million fine and lock them away for 2 years for tax evasion over $25?

The league has top treat New England the way parents have to cheat misbehaving children. There's more of a punishment if you've already been punished for this before. If you lie about it, the punishment gets worse, also. So maybe the penalty is too severe in conjunction with the offense, but New England's behavior compounded the problem.

 

[Road Warriors]

And lol at giving him bonus points for not appealing a 100k fine, zero suspension and zero loss of draft picks. Tomlin got punished and that was the end of it? He was caught on film, he smiled at the end and clearly knew what had happened, he admitted he was watching the whole play while he was interfering with it, and he got a trivial fine.

I know we waste time saluting our armed forces and firefighters but the real heroes are guys like Tomlin.

Not to mention, that as a member of team management, he doesn't have the appeal process available to him, as Kraft didn't have an appeal process available to him with the deflate penalties handed down. To say he accepted it is no great feat. He had no other choice.

 

[Anarchy99]

I don't really care if they're guilty of deflating footballs, but since you asked:

1) balls drop by close to 2 psi on a cold game day, and the largest difference explained by deliberate deflation is less than half a psi. This was hardly their first outdoor game. So why would they manually deflate balls by such a tiny amount when nature was going to do the rest? I find the argument that the reef used the Guage he thought he did more compelling than the argument that they cheated, but only a little.

2) the deflator nickname is not particularly concerning to me because it wasn't his actual nickname, and his job included the legal inflation and deflation of footballs. I also don't believe that anyone has a dorito in place of their dink.

3) kraft has already said he regrets not fighting the penalty but he's always been 1 of 32 and willing to take his licks to make the league successful. He also made his decision before people toe the Wells report to shreds. That wasn't an admission of guilt, it was acceptance of the league findings. Now that he's had time to review them, like everyone else, he is more skeptical and came out as vocally against the league as I've ever heard him

4) it was initially reported that the league asked the Patriots to suspend the equipment guys. Then the league denied it. I don't know the truth and neither do you so I don't consider that evidence one way or the other.

5) the "destroying the phone" meme isn't evidence of anything, either. The nflpa wanted this case to go to court from day one. Between their counsel and the NFL saying they didn't need his phone and then that they did, there are plenty of reasons for him to have reasonably replaced his phone. It's also possible that he didn't want questionable but innoccuous private texts to be misinterpreted the way dorito dink's were.

I agree that there's plenty of smoke here and that when there's smoke. There's probably fire. It's also possible he didn't do anything and that no balls were deflated. I'm not making categorical statements either way. They might literally have done nothing wrong. They might have done something wrong. I don't know. But what i do know is that for the NFL to have come down as hard as they did without firm evidence doesn't mean they have even more evidence of wrong doing in some back room somewhere. They may lose a court case that hurts them in future arbitrations and labor negotiations. This is all of their evidence, yet they've somehow created the impression that they're might be even more out there when the whole purpose of this was to protect the perception of the integrity of the game. That's a failure no matter how you look at it.

So "The Deflator" and destroyed phone mean nothing to you? That is the true test of a Patriots fan. Not sure why I decided to try to talk logic with a guy with the word Boston in his username. The team DID fire the ball guys. Kraft DID immediately accept the stiffest fine and draft loss in league history. Between The Deflator, the destroyed phone, firing the ball boys, and Kraft's willingness to accept penalty, only a Patriots fan would have any doubt about what happened.

Now, if you want to go the Ryan Braun route and simply hope to get off on technicalities, then that's understandable. But to pretend they didn't cheat (again) is the worst case of blind homerism I've ever seen.

So sure, call them cheaters, but I would call them cheaters like the IRS would call people that took a $25 tax deduction that really wasn't justified. Would the government then give them a $1 million fine and lock them away for 2 years for tax evasion over $25?

The league has top treat New England the way parents have to cheat misbehaving children. There's more of a punishment if you've already been punished for this before. If you lie about it, the punishment gets worse, also. So maybe the penalty is too severe in conjunction with the offense, but New England's behavior compounded the problem.

To be clear, I am not singling you out.

But Wells stated in his report the team and coaching staff were not involved and did not merit blame. The organization gave the league access to everything they had in terms of video, records, phones, etc. (save for Brady and Gostkowski who elected not to give them personal cell phones which was their legal right). The only thing the Pats didn't do was let the league interview the ball attendants for a fifth time.

I am not sure what "behavior" you are referring to and by whom. I am guessing the press conferences that were held after the false information was leaked about 11 of 12 balls were like 2 pounds under PSI levels. So the Patriots were attacked and assailed from misleading information. From that point forward, they were defending themselves against lies and mysterious leaks from the league.

What were they supposed to say, yeah, we did it, but we didn't do it anywhere near as badly as is being reported. That would have raised even more red flags.

 

[JuniorNB]

I don't really care if they're guilty of deflating footballs, but since you asked:

1) balls drop by close to 2 psi on a cold game day, and the largest difference explained by deliberate deflation is less than half a psi. This was hardly their first outdoor game. So why would they manually deflate balls by such a tiny amount when nature was going to do the rest? I find the argument that the reef used the Guage he thought he did more compelling than the argument that they cheated, but only a little.

2) the deflator nickname is not particularly concerning to me because it wasn't his actual nickname, and his job included the legal inflation and deflation of footballs. I also don't believe that anyone has a dorito in place of their dink.

3) kraft has already said he regrets not fighting the penalty but he's always been 1 of 32 and willing to take his licks to make the league successful. He also made his decision before people toe the Wells report to shreds. That wasn't an admission of guilt, it was acceptance of the league findings. Now that he's had time to review them, like everyone else, he is more skeptical and came out as vocally against the league as I've ever heard him

4) it was initially reported that the league asked the Patriots to suspend the equipment guys. Then the league denied it. I don't know the truth and neither do you so I don't consider that evidence one way or the other.

5) the "destroying the phone" meme isn't evidence of anything, either. The nflpa wanted this case to go to court from day one. Between their counsel and the NFL saying they didn't need his phone and then that they did, there are plenty of reasons for him to have reasonably replaced his phone. It's also possible that he didn't want questionable but innoccuous private texts to be misinterpreted the way dorito dink's were.

I agree that there's plenty of smoke here and that when there's smoke. There's probably fire. It's also possible he didn't do anything and that no balls were deflated. I'm not making categorical statements either way. They might literally have done nothing wrong. They might have done something wrong. I don't know. But what i do know is that for the NFL to have come down as hard as they did without firm evidence doesn't mean they have even more evidence of wrong doing in some back room somewhere. They may lose a court case that hurts them in future arbitrations and labor negotiations. This is all of their evidence, yet they've somehow created the impression that they're might be even more out there when the whole purpose of this was to protect the perception of the integrity of the game. That's a failure no matter how you look at it.

So "The Deflator" and destroyed phone mean nothing to you? That is the true test of a Patriots fan. Not sure why I decided to try to talk logic with a guy with the word Boston in his username. The team DID fire the ball guys. Kraft DID immediately accept the stiffest fine and draft loss in league history. Between The Deflator, the destroyed phone, firing the ball boys, and Kraft's willingness to accept penalty, only a Patriots fan would have any doubt about what happened.

Now, if you want to go the Ryan Braun route and simply hope to get off on technicalities, then that's understandable. But to pretend they didn't cheat (again) is the worst case of blind homerism I've ever seen.

So sure, call them cheaters, but I would call them cheaters like the IRS would call people that took a $25 tax deduction that really wasn't justified. Would the government then give them a $1 million fine and lock them away for 2 years for tax evasion over $25?

The league has top treat New England the way parents have to cheat misbehaving children. There's more of a punishment if you've already been punished for this before. If you lie about it, the punishment gets worse, also. So maybe the penalty is too severe in conjunction with the offense, but New England's behavior compounded the problem.

To be clear, I am not singling you out.

But Wells stated in his report the team and coaching staff were not involved and did not merit blame. The organization gave the league access to everything they had in terms of video, records, phones, etc. (save for Brady and Gostkowski who elected not to give them personal cell phones which was their legal right). The only thing the Pats didn't do was let the league interview the ball attendants for a fifth time.

I am not sure what "behavior" you are referring to and by whom. I am guessing the press conferences that were held after the false information was leaked about 11 of 12 balls were like 2 pounds under PSI levels. So the Patriots were attacked and assailed from misleading information. From that point forward, they were defending themselves against lies and mysterious leaks from the league.

What were they supposed to say, yeah, we did it, but we didn't do it anywhere near as badly as is being reported. That would have raised even more red flags.

Neither Brady nor Gostkowski were ever asked to hand over their cell phones. That's Pats-spin. They were asked to cooperate and supply certain texts and calls. Everyone asks like they wanted Brady to leave his phone with them for a few days with the league having free access to anything on it. And why do you suppose the Pats didn't allow the league to interview the equipment guys another time? But went ahead and fired them?

 

[Anarchy99]

I don't really care if they're guilty of deflating footballs, but since you asked:

1) balls drop by close to 2 psi on a cold game day, and the largest difference explained by deliberate deflation is less than half a psi. This was hardly their first outdoor game. So why would they manually deflate balls by such a tiny amount when nature was going to do the rest? I find the argument that the reef used the Guage he thought he did more compelling than the argument that they cheated, but only a little.

2) the deflator nickname is not particularly concerning to me because it wasn't his actual nickname, and his job included the legal inflation and deflation of footballs. I also don't believe that anyone has a dorito in place of their dink.

3) kraft has already said he regrets not fighting the penalty but he's always been 1 of 32 and willing to take his licks to make the league successful. He also made his decision before people toe the Wells report to shreds. That wasn't an admission of guilt, it was acceptance of the league findings. Now that he's had time to review them, like everyone else, he is more skeptical and came out as vocally against the league as I've ever heard him

4) it was initially reported that the league asked the Patriots to suspend the equipment guys. Then the league denied it. I don't know the truth and neither do you so I don't consider that evidence one way or the other.

5) the "destroying the phone" meme isn't evidence of anything, either. The nflpa wanted this case to go to court from day one. Between their counsel and the NFL saying they didn't need his phone and then that they did, there are plenty of reasons for him to have reasonably replaced his phone. It's also possible that he didn't want questionable but innoccuous private texts to be misinterpreted the way dorito dink's were.

I agree that there's plenty of smoke here and that when there's smoke. There's probably fire. It's also possible he didn't do anything and that no balls were deflated. I'm not making categorical statements either way. They might literally have done nothing wrong. They might have done something wrong. I don't know. But what i do know is that for the NFL to have come down as hard as they did without firm evidence doesn't mean they have even more evidence of wrong doing in some back room somewhere. They may lose a court case that hurts them in future arbitrations and labor negotiations. This is all of their evidence, yet they've somehow created the impression that they're might be even more out there when the whole purpose of this was to protect the perception of the integrity of the game. That's a failure no matter how you look at it.

So "The Deflator" and destroyed phone mean nothing to you? That is the true test of a Patriots fan. Not sure why I decided to try to talk logic with a guy with the word Boston in his username. The team DID fire the ball guys. Kraft DID immediately accept the stiffest fine and draft loss in league history. Between The Deflator, the destroyed phone, firing the ball boys, and Kraft's willingness to accept penalty, only a Patriots fan would have any doubt about what happened.

Now, if you want to go the Ryan Braun route and simply hope to get off on technicalities, then that's understandable. But to pretend they didn't cheat (again) is the worst case of blind homerism I've ever seen.

So sure, call them cheaters, but I would call them cheaters like the IRS would call people that took a $25 tax deduction that really wasn't justified. Would the government then give them a $1 million fine and lock them away for 2 years for tax evasion over $25?

The league has top treat New England the way parents have to cheat misbehaving children. There's more of a punishment if you've already been punished for this before. If you lie about it, the punishment gets worse, also. So maybe the penalty is too severe in conjunction with the offense, but New England's behavior compounded the problem.

To be clear, I am not singling you out.

But Wells stated in his report the team and coaching staff were not involved and did not merit blame. The organization gave the league access to everything they had in terms of video, records, phones, etc. (save for Brady and Gostkowski who elected not to give them personal cell phones which was their legal right). The only thing the Pats didn't do was let the league interview the ball attendants for a fifth time.

I am not sure what "behavior" you are referring to and by whom. I am guessing the press conferences that were held after the false information was leaked about 11 of 12 balls were like 2 pounds under PSI levels. So the Patriots were attacked and assailed from misleading information. From that point forward, they were defending themselves against lies and mysterious leaks from the league.

What were they supposed to say, yeah, we did it, but we didn't do it anywhere near as badly as is being reported. That would have raised even more red flags.

Neither Brady nor Gostkowski were ever asked to hand over their cell phones. That's Pats-spin. They were asked to cooperate and supply certain texts and calls. Everyone asks like they wanted Brady to leave his phone with them for a few days with the league having free access to anything on it. And why do you suppose the Pats didn't allow the league to interview the equipment guys another time? But went ahead and fired them?

To the letter of the law, the league had no legal right to demand anything on a player's phone. So not providing information from a personal communication device is not grounds for any penalties. The entire phone thing was a way for the league to engineer a way to punish Brady after the fact. They already had what was on his phone and what he had texted from others involved. And that information was later to presented to them anyway. But instead of reporting on the information they had or received later, the only noteworthy thing to come out of it was Goodell trying to uphold punishment of Brady for not cooperating by saying Brady destroyed the phone. But nowhere has it ever come out that the league came up with nothing from the two baboons and nothing from 12 hours of interviews and testimony from Brady (and all the texts). That part got totally ignored in the Wells report, the appeal, the appeal report, and anything released to the media. By that point, the league was looking for ways to make a case because they didn't have a strong case to begin with. Put another way, the league shifted gears to try to show a cover up when they really hadn't shown that there was much of a crime to begin with.

And as explained earlier, the team placed the ball handlers on suspension per request of the league, who were going to suspend them if the Patriots didn't. That was the story at the time that was reported. That may have been debated since then.

 

[JuniorNB]

I don't really care if they're guilty of deflating footballs, but since you asked:

1) balls drop by close to 2 psi on a cold game day, and the largest difference explained by deliberate deflation is less than half a psi. This was hardly their first outdoor game. So why would they manually deflate balls by such a tiny amount when nature was going to do the rest? I find the argument that the reef used the Guage he thought he did more compelling than the argument that they cheated, but only a little.

2) the deflator nickname is not particularly concerning to me because it wasn't his actual nickname, and his job included the legal inflation and deflation of footballs. I also don't believe that anyone has a dorito in place of their dink.

3) kraft has already said he regrets not fighting the penalty but he's always been 1 of 32 and willing to take his licks to make the league successful. He also made his decision before people toe the Wells report to shreds. That wasn't an admission of guilt, it was acceptance of the league findings. Now that he's had time to review them, like everyone else, he is more skeptical and came out as vocally against the league as I've ever heard him

4) it was initially reported that the league asked the Patriots to suspend the equipment guys. Then the league denied it. I don't know the truth and neither do you so I don't consider that evidence one way or the other.

5) the "destroying the phone" meme isn't evidence of anything, either. The nflpa wanted this case to go to court from day one. Between their counsel and the NFL saying they didn't need his phone and then that they did, there are plenty of reasons for him to have reasonably replaced his phone. It's also possible that he didn't want questionable but innoccuous private texts to be misinterpreted the way dorito dink's were.

I agree that there's plenty of smoke here and that when there's smoke. There's probably fire. It's also possible he didn't do anything and that no balls were deflated. I'm not making categorical statements either way. They might literally have done nothing wrong. They might have done something wrong. I don't know. But what i do know is that for the NFL to have come down as hard as they did without firm evidence doesn't mean they have even more evidence of wrong doing in some back room somewhere. They may lose a court case that hurts them in future arbitrations and labor negotiations. This is all of their evidence, yet they've somehow created the impression that they're might be even more out there when the whole purpose of this was to protect the perception of the integrity of the game. That's a failure no matter how you look at it.

So "The Deflator" and destroyed phone mean nothing to you? That is the true test of a Patriots fan. Not sure why I decided to try to talk logic with a guy with the word Boston in his username. The team DID fire the ball guys. Kraft DID immediately accept the stiffest fine and draft loss in league history. Between The Deflator, the destroyed phone, firing the ball boys, and Kraft's willingness to accept penalty, only a Patriots fan would have any doubt about what happened.

Now, if you want to go the Ryan Braun route and simply hope to get off on technicalities, then that's understandable. But to pretend they didn't cheat (again) is the worst case of blind homerism I've ever seen.

So sure, call them cheaters, but I would call them cheaters like the IRS would call people that took a $25 tax deduction that really wasn't justified. Would the government then give them a $1 million fine and lock them away for 2 years for tax evasion over $25?

The league has top treat New England the way parents have to cheat misbehaving children. There's more of a punishment if you've already been punished for this before. If you lie about it, the punishment gets worse, also. So maybe the penalty is too severe in conjunction with the offense, but New England's behavior compounded the problem.

To be clear, I am not singling you out.

But Wells stated in his report the team and coaching staff were not involved and did not merit blame. The organization gave the league access to everything they had in terms of video, records, phones, etc. (save for Brady and Gostkowski who elected not to give them personal cell phones which was their legal right). The only thing the Pats didn't do was let the league interview the ball attendants for a fifth time.

I am not sure what "behavior" you are referring to and by whom. I am guessing the press conferences that were held after the false information was leaked about 11 of 12 balls were like 2 pounds under PSI levels. So the Patriots were attacked and assailed from misleading information. From that point forward, they were defending themselves against lies and mysterious leaks from the league.

What were they supposed to say, yeah, we did it, but we didn't do it anywhere near as badly as is being reported. That would have raised even more red flags.

Neither Brady nor Gostkowski were ever asked to hand over their cell phones. That's Pats-spin. They were asked to cooperate and supply certain texts and calls. Everyone asks like they wanted Brady to leave his phone with them for a few days with the league having free access to anything on it. And why do you suppose the Pats didn't allow the league to interview the equipment guys another time? But went ahead and fired them?

To the letter of the law, the league had no legal right to demand anything on a player's phone. So not providing information from a personal communication device is not grounds for any penalties. The entire phone thing was a way for the league to engineer a way to punish Brady after the fact. They already had what was on his phone and what he had texted from others involved. And that information was later to presented to them anyway. But instead of reporting on the information they had or received later, the only noteworthy thing to come out of it was Goodell trying to uphold punishment of Brady for not cooperating by saying Brady destroyed the phone. But nowhere has it ever come out that the league came up with nothing from the two baboons and nothing from 12 hours of interviews and testimony from Brady (and all the texts). That part got totally ignored in the Wells report, the appeal, the appeal report, and anything released to the media. By that point, the league was looking for ways to make a case because they didn't have a strong case to begin with. Put another way, the league shifted gears to try to show a cover up when they really hadn't shown that there was much of a crime to begin with.

And as explained earlier, the team placed the ball handlers on suspension per request of the league, who were going to suspend them if the Patriots didn't. That was the story at the time that was reported. That may have been debated since then.

Ok. "To the letter of the law", you may be right. But if I'm considered one of the top ten quarterbacks to ever play the game, and I am 100% innocent and don't want my legacy tarnished, I'm providing anything and everything I possibly can to prove that. Not cooperating because of the letter of the law, shows me just the opposite.,

 

[Anarchy99]

The other issue here is that at no point anyone explain what the stakes were and what penalties were in play. That's part of what Brady is arguing. There was nothing documented in the CBA that Brady could face suspension. And Wells never said, oh BTW, we are planning on suspending you so you better cooperate. Brady was never given a choice to cooperate and hand over his phone or be suspended for four games. Sure, after the fact it's easy to say what he should of done or what options he had, but at the time he had no idea what was going on and what penalties he faced.

And for the 40th time, I am not saying he didn't do anything. All I am saying is it's easy to Monday morning QB months and months later and not in real time as things happened.

 

[JuniorNB]

The other issue here is that at no point anyone explain what the stakes were and what penalties were in play. That's part of what Brady is arguing. There was nothing documented in the CBA that Brady could face suspension. And Wells never said, oh BTW, we are planning on suspending you so you better cooperate. Brady was never given a choice to cooperate and hand over his phone or be suspended for four games. Sure, after the fact it's easy to say what he should of done or what options he had, but at the time he had no idea what was going on and what penalties he faced.

And for the 40th time, I am not saying he didn't do anything. All I am saying is it's easy to Monday morning QB months and months later and not in real time as things happened.

I do agree with that. I said right from the start that Brady's mistake was denying and lying right off the bat. Although it's a mistake 99% of athletes make. And I can't even say that I wouldn't make it. It's the first instinct. But all of it snowballed. And as more and more time passed, it became impossible to retract everything and tell the truth. And like Bonds and the majority of the cheaters in the world of sports, Brady will never admit what he did. Even though people know.

 

[Run It Up]

Neither Brady nor Gostkowski were ever asked to hand over their cell phones. That's Pats-spin. They were asked to cooperate and supply certain texts and calls. Everyone asks like they wanted Brady to leave his phone with them for a few days with the league having free access to anything on it. And why do you suppose the Pats didn't allow the league to interview the equipment guys another time? But went ahead and fired them?

Um, if all they wanted were certain texts and calls how come Goodell wouldn't accept his phone records at the appeal?

Also, the league interviewed Mcnally 3 times and Wells interviewed him once, they asked to interview him a fifth time, to which the Pats said they thought it was excessive. Its not like they said no outright.

 

[JuniorNB]

Neither Brady nor Gostkowski were ever asked to hand over their cell phones. That's Pats-spin. They were asked to cooperate and supply certain texts and calls. Everyone asks like they wanted Brady to leave his phone with them for a few days with the league having free access to anything on it. And why do you suppose the Pats didn't allow the league to interview the equipment guys another time? But went ahead and fired them?

Um, if all they wanted were certain texts and calls how come Goodell wouldn't accept his phone records at the appeal?Also, the league interviewed Mcnally 3 times and Wells interviewed him once, they asked to interview him a fifth time, to which the Pats said they thought it was excessive. Its not like they said no outright.

all he offered at the appeal was a spreadsheet listing the numbers that were called and texted. Not the content. They told the league they could contact anyone they wanted if they wanted to see the texts. That was brady's F-you to tje league. The NFL declined and considered him uncooperative and suspended him 4 games. That was the league's F-you to Brady.

 

[Run It Up]

Neither Brady nor Gostkowski were ever asked to hand over their cell phones. That's Pats-spin. They were asked to cooperate and supply certain texts and calls. Everyone asks like they wanted Brady to leave his phone with them for a few days with the league having free access to anything on it. And why do you suppose the Pats didn't allow the league to interview the equipment guys another time? But went ahead and fired them?

Um, if all they wanted were certain texts and calls how come Goodell wouldn't accept his phone records at the appeal?Also, the league interviewed Mcnally 3 times and Wells interviewed him once, they asked to interview him a fifth time, to which the Pats said they thought it was excessive. Its not like they said no outright.

all he offered at the appeal was a spreadsheet listing the numbers that were called and texted. Not the content. They told the league they could contact anyone they wanted if they wanted to see the texts. That was brady's F-you to tje league. The NFL declined and considered him uncooperative and suspended him 4 games. That was the league's F-you to Brady.

"Give us what you want"

Except for the thing you give us.

 

[bostonfred]

I totally see how you think Brady was unreasonable by not sharing his phone or text records. The nflpa made that an issue early though. They didn't want a player rep giving over their phone. This was a standoff between a union and an employer and brady got caught in the middle.

And while I understand how reasonable it sounds to have the league ask for just a little concession, like just printing out a few texts and emails, the union and Brady's lawyer said no. As they should. The league didn't have a right to go to his personal communication device and accepting their request would have eroded player protections.

The league responding by slapping him with a four game suspension and million dollar fine seems more than a little harsh, but failing to tell him that was on the table may have been enough to get the ruling vacated.

Personally I think the call to bring a new phone to the meeting was made by the union. They didn't want brady buckling and giving his phone over to the investigator. But that would never get said aloud in one of these hearings. But it's reasonable enough that I don't think the phone destruction had anything to do with any incriminating data on his phone. And aside from the phone, wells said he was very cooperative. So it's not fair to categorize brady as seeming guilty because he didn't try to defend himself properly.