Patriots being investigated after Colts game (2 Viewers)

[Doug B]

So, using this type of logic, the statement that why haven't people come out publicly against Belichick? Logic would dictate that if they had something on him, they would. That they haven't is solid unassailable proof they have nothing.


Is that how you play this game?

Not playing a game. My overall point is that if someone is trying to take down the Patriots by exposing their cheating, the exposers are going to need bigger guns (= public whistleblowers).

EDIT: I kind of danced around your question. What I was asking was "What, conceivably, happens to ex-Pats players/staff that speak out publicly against Belichick, Kraft, or the team in general?" Tobias answered pretty directly with a reasonable take.

 

[Road Warriors]

if the Patriots were able to sneak by security personnel, avoid all security cameras, enter opponents locker rooms unseen/undetected, find then take the play sheets and then scrap their entire week of preparation to adjust to the newly discovered play sheets... they may be more than a football dynasty - they'd be CIA level operatives and analysts.

hey look, BIGFOOT!

The text says "visiting locker room," i.e. they did this at Gillette. The personnel and security cameras they were "sneaking by" and "avoiding" were their own, or those of hotels. Big hotels aren't exactly the Pentagon. If high school kids on field trips can get away with smoking weed and fingerbanging in the stairwells I'm pretty sure an NFL team can get away with rummaging through conference rooms and whatnot.

And if you don't think a defense benefits from knowing what plays the offense is going to run I don't know what to tell you.

It's really fantastic how in the heads of the opponents ( and apparently fans and media ) the Patriots really are. Boogeymen everywhere. Love the SI piece.

Seattle searching the surrounding areas of their practices during SB week, on the input of a "unnamed" team. Find nothing.

Manning believes the locker rooms are bugged. Sweep for bugs, find nothing.

Headset malfunctions. Happen everywhere ( notoriously in MIA, IIRC ), but only by nefarious means in Foxboro.

Dumpster diving for playbooks, searching locker rooms. Some unknown source said they did it, so IT HAPPENED!!!

Keep up the crusade, boys. It's gonna be another fun year.

You mean in the heads of people that used to work for them that are making many of these claims?

No, I mean the media that thinks drudging up an 8 year old report, then backing it with years of unfounded / unproven claims is a good idea, and fans like yourself that already have a belief and find unnamed sources and unproven claims to be irrefutable evidence of your beliefs.

And fuel for the deniers to keep looking at the smoke and declaring there cannot be fire...just can't be.

Oof.

We just assume the smoke is the smoldering ashes of the bodies left in the wake of the CHAMPS!

 

[Anarchy99]

Be even more believable if the source had a scrap of evidence, like a playsheet kept for posterity. Even Matt Walsh kept a couple spygate tapes for later use. He even "indicated" they may contain a walkthrough of the Rams practice.

I don't even care about physical evidence -- that's too high a bar to set for simply informing common sense. No one's risking imprisonment here ... courtroom standards are not needed.

Someone coming forward publicly would be plenty. Two people coming forward publicly would be pretty much unassailable. Then the Cosby-esque avalanche would begin.

Belichick, I believe, has it in him to grate people pretty harshly. What do people risk in speaking out against him (or Kraft) publicly? Never have understood that. Can they really ruin lives of people who speak out?

So, using this type of logic, the statement that why haven't people come out publicly against Belichick? Logic would dictate that if they had something on him, they would. That they haven't is solid unassailable proof they have nothing.

Is that how you play this game?

It has also been rumored that BB has as much or more dirt on everyone else as they do on him. The last thing tams want is dirty laundry airing out about themselves because they went after Bill.

 

[Doug B]

It has also been rumored that BB has as much or more dirt on everyone else as they do on him. The last thing tams want is dirty laundry airing out about themselves because they went after Bill.

Yeah, but eventually someone goes crazy and quits giving a rip. Someone gets to the point where they have nothing to lose. But who can say who it will be or when it will be?

 

[Workhorse]

Be even more believable if the source had a scrap of evidence, like a playsheet kept for posterity. Even Matt Walsh kept a couple spygate tapes for later use. He even "indicated" they may contain a walkthrough of the Rams practice.

I don't even care about physical evidence -- that's too high a bar to set for simply informing common sense. No one's risking imprisonment here ... courtroom standards are not needed.

Someone coming forward publicly would be plenty. Two people coming forward publicly would be pretty much unassailable. Then the Cosby-esque avalanche would begin.

Belichick, I believe, has it in him to grate people pretty harshly. What do people risk in speaking out against him (or Kraft) publicly? Never have understood that. Can they really ruin lives of people who speak out?

Two pretty huge reasons these employees need anonymity:

1. If they come forward they put their entire career in pro football at risk. Every organization has skeletons- maybe not cheating, maybe more looking the other way at evidence of steroid use, or asking shady questions during the predraft interviews, or covering up domestic violence incidents, or whatever. Nobody would hire someone they have reason to believe might publicly reveal those skeletons.

2. Pro football fans are insane. If someone was named as the "snitch" who outed the Pats' play sheet thefts they'd basically have to go into hiding. No social media, no job where they interact with the public, hell they'd probably have to stay out of the Northeast US for the rest of their lives. That's not fun, especially when there's no real upside to doing it other than satisfying skeptical fans, many of whom are Pats fans who are never going to be satisfied about the veracity of the story anyway.

1. I can shut that speculation down with one name: Eric Mangini. Still employed as D Coordinator of the 49ers despite being the whistleblower on Spygate.

2. See #1.

 

[Dr. Octopus]

The judge said there was no evidence involving the single game played against the Colts in the AFCCG. That doesn't mean the Patriots didn't manually alter the football in any other game. To be fair, it doesn't mean they did alter the footballs in any other game either.

After 300+ pages, I find it odd that a poll has been added about play sheets. Apparently the OTL article is having its intended effect. Lots of people are reading it and both fully believe what was written (with very little to support it) and people are back to being outraged by Spygate (albeit it 8 years later).

I think the two threads were merged.

 

[TobiasFunke]

Let's use me as an example of a possible example of how reporters can get things wrong. I worked for 10 years at FBG. Let's say a reporter came digging around for dirt on FBG. To be clear, this is not a real story, and FBG hasn't done anything.

Hypothetically, say I told this reporter that back in the day FBG used to take articles written from other authors from other websites and basically changed the name of the author and then published or posted it on their own site. That would be saucy information to an investigative reporter. Let's say I never indicated what articles, what years, what other websites were involved, etc. and none of that stuff was available or archieved for anyone to check. The reporter than asked how that could be verified.

So say I referred them to 2-3 other former staffers (emphasis on former) who might not have been a fan of their former employer and said, "Yeah, they did that all the time, it was very hush hush." Now there are 4 of us alleging that FBG glammed content from other sites and either stole it, plagiarized it, or used it as paid content.

Now the reporter feels great in adding this to an article bashing FBG. So sure, there are multiple sources, but there still is no proof.

If we go back to the Patriots and the OTL article, since there are no names attached to the sources, no specific games cited when this supposedly happened, and no one produced a play list as proof it is all hearsay. Who knows if the people providing the information were actually reciting things that they heard the team had done at some point. Maybe it really happened. Maybe it didn't. Maybe the details got exaggerated. Maybe all that happened is a custodian found a play sheet in the trash after a game one time but the story escalated at one point that someone grabbed it from a coach's clipboard before a game.

Not knowing anything but anonymous whispers 8-10 years later is not proof of anything. There literally have been so many allegations against NE that the list would go on for pages. They have successfully managed to get in the heads of every team and the league office.

Put another way, the same thing would happen to the OTL reporters as the NFL if this played out in court. They would have an impossible time proving their allegations. If ESPN really wanted to make this a story with teeth, they would need to name names, name incidents, spell out exactly what was done and by whom. They would need to state which games and what was taken, when it was taken, who was there when they took it, etc. They would also need more . . . a dated play sheet, a videotape of someone doing it, signed affidavits by multiple people involved, or a confessions from BB.

Maybe the OTL reporters are top notch and have impeccable credentials. But the way this was reported was so vague and ambiguous that it is hard to take what they wrote seriously.

1. People need to stop applying legal concepts like "hearsay" and "proof beyond a reasonable doubt" and saying things like "what would happen if this played out in a courtroom?" It's pure nonsense. Court proceedings are totally different from investigative reports, for very good reasons. You might as well be asking why we let football players use their hands even though it violates the rules of soccer. Nobody's trying to send Bill Belichick to jail or even get the Patriots to pay damages for games lost due to cheating, so the safeguards we apply in a courtroom setting are not needed here. This is an investigative report that adheres to accepted practices of journalism and allows the reader to use common sense to reach a fairly clear conclusion.

2. The facts in your hypothetical would have been accounted for by the reporter and his editors and fact-checkers. They would know if the ex-employees have an axe to grind against a former employer and if so they would demand more corroboration of the account. They would know if the employee providing the information had firsthand knowledge of the practice or if they just heard about it from someone else, and that would also go into their decision as to whether to publish it. Something like your hypothetical, without more, would never see the light of day with a respected name attached to it, period. Way too much downside for the outlet and especially the reporter, with very little upside to counter it.

3. How would these employees have a stolen play sheet? They're not the ones that stole them, and even if they were they presumably handed them over to higher-ups rather than keeping them on file. That's the whole idea. It's preposterous to say that the account isn't credible without something that basically can't exist. That suggestion, along with your list of "maybes" that are clearly not true based on a reading of the story (a custodian would have no knowledge of the practice as its described- you're basically calling the story a fiction created by maybe the most respected investigative sports journalist there is) suggests to me that you're looking for reasons to stay in denial about your favorite team rather than viewing the story objectively.

 

[espnespn]

Personally I think its silly that a playbook would even be left behind anyway. My issue is the expectation that all teams must waste their time and employ full-time counter-espionage tactics when playing the Patriots. Just ####### stop cheating.

Just stop wasting time worrying about all this "cheating" nonsense, stop making excuses, and start focusing on being better at football. Like the Patriots do.

They also have some focus on cheating, obviously. Teams would do well to better their efforts in such areas if its gonna be such a frequent happenstance.

Salty Haters have a focus on making false accusations obviously: Formation-gate, Waiver-Gate, Kicking Ball Deflategate, and Deflategate were all false/debunked accusations.

And then denying the truth, like when a federal judge says there is no evidence.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

 

[espnespn]

if the Patriots were able to sneak by security personnel, avoid all security cameras, enter opponents locker rooms unseen/undetected, find then take the play sheets and then scrap their entire week of preparation to adjust to the newly discovered play sheets... they may be more than a football dynasty - they'd be CIA level operatives and analysts.

hey look, BIGFOOT!

The text says "visiting locker room," i.e. they did this at Gillette. The personnel and security cameras they were "sneaking by" and "avoiding" were their own, or those of hotels. Big hotels aren't exactly the Pentagon. If high school kids on field trips can get away with smoking weed and fingerbanging in the stairwells I'm pretty sure an NFL team can get away with rummaging through conference rooms and whatnot.

And if you don't think a defense benefits from knowing what plays the offense is going to run I don't know what to tell you.

It's really fantastic how in the heads of the opponents ( and apparently fans and media ) the Patriots really are. Boogeymen everywhere. Love the SI piece.

Seattle searching the surrounding areas of their practices during SB week, on the input of a "unnamed" team. Find nothing.

Manning believes the locker rooms are bugged. Sweep for bugs, find nothing.

Headset malfunctions. Happen everywhere ( notoriously in MIA, IIRC ), but only by nefarious means in Foxboro.

Dumpster diving for playbooks, searching locker rooms. Some unknown source said they did it, so IT HAPPENED!!!

Keep up the crusade, boys. It's gonna be another fun year.

You mean in the heads of people that used to work for them that are making many of these claims?

No, I mean the media that thinks drudging up an 8 year old report, then backing it with years of unfounded / unproven claims is a good idea, and fans like yourself that already have a belief and find unnamed sources and unproven claims to be irrefutable evidence of your beliefs.

And fuel for the deniers to keep looking at the smoke and declaring there cannot be fire...just can't be.

Oof.

Salty Haters won't even accept the truth, when a federal judge says there is no evidence.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

 

[sho nuff]

Personally I think its silly that a playbook would even be left behind anyway. My issue is the expectation that all teams must waste their time and employ full-time counter-espionage tactics when playing the Patriots. Just ####### stop cheating.

Just stop wasting time worrying about all this "cheating" nonsense, stop making excuses, and start focusing on being better at football. Like the Patriots do.

They also have some focus on cheating, obviously. Teams would do well to better their efforts in such areas if its gonna be such a frequent happenstance.

Salty Haters have a focus on making false accusations obviously: Formation-gate, Waiver-Gate, Kicking Ball Deflategate, and Deflategate were all false/debunked accusations.

And then denying the truth, like when a federal judge says there is no evidence.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

You are the one who keeps spewing false information along with the salty hater stuff.

Deflategate was not debunked or proven false.

Only thing was proven was that the NFL did not follow proper procedure and the judge questioned if there was "direct" evidence of some conspiracy. And that was in his questioning, not in his opinion of the case.

So you can keep repeating that along with salty hater...it just means even more people are going to ignore everything you have to say.

 

[TD Ryan]

Deflategate was not debunked or proven false.

nor was it proven true

aren't we supposed to know something is true before we make accusations?

so it's neither true nor false - yet an unbiased federal judge looked it all over and didn't see any evidence that it was true.

And with that, you've come to the conclusion, that it's true.

that's insane you know...

 

[sho nuff]

Deflategate was not debunked or proven false.

nor was it proven true

aren't we supposed to know something is true before we make accusations?

so it's neither true nor false - yet an unbiased federal judge looked it all over and didn't see any evidence that it was true.

And with that, you've come to the conclusion, that it's true.

that's insane you know...

He didn't see any direct evidence of Brady's involvement.

He did not rule on what evidence there was of deflation by the Patriots staff.

Considering the Patriots willingly paid a large fine and gave up a draft pick...with other information already known, there is plenty there to conclude balls were tampered with after inspection.

But it seems again that nothing short of video of a guy in full Patriots gear deflating balls will be good enough for some of you.

 

[TD Ryan]

no minds are going to change here... it's quite polarizing and I expect it will be forever.

Ron Borges of the Boston Herald, a notorious anti-Patriots, anti-Belichick writer since Parcells/Bledsoe left wrote this today:

Belichick remembered a play from his Navy childhood, when Wayne Hardin was the head coach, in which a player would linger near the sideline with his teammates in punt formation and suddenly become a receiver.

Moran quotes Belichick as saying: “I thought, ‘That’s a great idea.’ Then I finally got a chance to do it . . . then a letter from the National Football League arrived, with a simple message: Stop.’

I love Belichick for this stuff.

I love that he's the coach of the team I root for.

I get it - it's not "sportsmanship" the way we teach our Pop Warner kids... but, IMO, the entire NFL is nasty, cutthroat business.

This coach is smart enough to gain every advantage and push every rule. I like him for it. Prove to me he is orchestrating clandestine operations to steal playbooks, threaten opponent's families, plant drugs on other owners... and I'll change my tune.

Until then, it's a case of you hate him when he's not on your team.

 

[parrot]

Sorry. Stepped outside deflategate for a second. I was talking about the common journalistic practice. It's loathsome.

that's just it - ESPN is not, IMO - a pristine example of journalistic integrity.

and sadly, that is the state of most journalism - it's part of the fallout in the newspaper/magazine industry dying - clicks/shares/views all lead to revenue - and revenue drives the editorial decision making.

ESPN, no. Don Van Natta, however, absolutely is.

Funny note here- he did a BS Report interview with Bill Simmons after the Ray Rice/Ravens story. Simmons pretty much worshiped him throughout as he systematically went after Goodell and the Ravens ownership. And even now if you look at Simmons' twitter rant after the story went up you'll see he never questions the story itself, instead going for a whole "sour grapes" rant intended to antagonize certain fan bases. You can tell even through his shtick that he knows the story is almost certainly true and well done.

The same BS report where he said

"Remember, there was a meeting of owners, a private meeting behind closed doors, that Goodell presided over, when all the owners agreed, those tapes had to be destroyed."

How does that jibe with the latest narrative?

 

[BustedKnuckles]

So the balls were not deflated and the patriots paid the money and a draft pick for nothing?

And still using the tired old salty haters schtick?

Go watch your sucky team lose all year and leave the winners alone

Hey BK bro... might wanna pop some nolvadex or aromasin. Just sayin'.

SARMS baby

btw...im a raiders fan living in new england...im just playin along for fun

I'll be at this Sundays Raider home opener, box seats and A.C. Though I may walk down amongst the neophytes. Hope they massacre the Bengals.

SARM of choice?

oh man im jealous ....ive never been to the black hole

i recently started using LGD-4033 and MK 677....so far so good

 

[KarmaPolice]

no minds are going to change here... it's quite polarizing and I expect it will be forever.

Ron Borges of the Boston Herald, a notorious anti-Patriots, anti-Belichick writer since Parcells/Bledsoe left wrote this today:

Belichick remembered a play from his Navy childhood, when Wayne Hardin was the head coach, in which a player would linger near the sideline with his teammates in punt formation and suddenly become a receiver.

Moran quotes Belichick as saying: “I thought, ‘That’s a great idea.’ Then I finally got a chance to do it . . . then a letter from the National Football League arrived, with a simple message: Stop.’

I love Belichick for this stuff.

I love that he's the coach of the team I root for.

I get it - it's not "sportsmanship" the way we teach our Pop Warner kids... but, IMO, the entire NFL is nasty, cutthroat business.

This coach is smart enough to gain every advantage and push every rule. I like him for it. Prove to me he is orchestrating clandestine operations to steal playbooks, threaten opponent's families, plant drugs on other owners... and I'll change my tune.

Until then, it's a case of you hate him when he's not on your team.

Yeah, this is about where I stand on it as well.

I have no doubt there was something going on to get the balls to how Brady likes them to feel. I also have no doubt that other teams and Qbs do something similar. I am confident that the balls were up to snuff and within the psi range in the 2nd half of the Colts game and for the Super Bowl, and Brady did just fine. People blowing this out of proportion and pretending like it was a huge competitive advantage are off their rockers. Goodell should have fined him and moved on, but instead here we are months and millions of dollars later. Such a non-issue.

 

[AngryPatriot]

ESPN is such a joke, they'll probably air their OTL spygate dud on a loop during tonights game. I agree with Yorke, non issue.

 

[ShamrockPride]

ESPN is such a joke, they'll probably air their OTL spygate dud on a loop during tonights game. I agree with Yorke, non issue.

I don't like your team, but yes, ESPN is an awful network. Their Tebow coverage was the beginning of their downfall and they did themselves no favor with their obsessive coverage of LeBron and the Heat.

E!SPN

 

[Koya]

PLEASE... let this stupid issue pass. A lame infraction where the only reaction that was more over and beyond than the NFL's are these ardent fans who still believe people in or out of football don't think (re: know) the Pats are cheaters, anyway.

IT'S A NEW YEAR! KICKOFF IN A COUPLE HOURS!

Please, enough with the silliness.It's time for football. Let's focus on football.

Plus, We ALL know that the Pats are going to cheat again this year, and a chance that one of their cheats gets caught, so we can just begin this again next year. Year after, the LATEST.

 

[KarmaPolice]

PLEASE... let this stupid issue pass. A lame infraction where the only reaction that was more over and beyond than the NFL's are these ardent fans who still believe people in or out of football don't think (re: know) the Pats are cheaters, anyway.

IT'S A NEW YEAR! KICKOFF IN A COUPLE HOURS!

Please, enough with the silliness.It's time for football. Let's focus on football.

Plus, We ALL know that the Pats are going to cheat again this year, and a chance that one of their cheats gets caught, so we can just begin this again next year. Year after, the LATEST.

Gee, you seem so genuine in wanting to let this cheating bs go and get to some football.

 

[ffjunk]

PLEASE... let this stupid issue pass. A lame infraction where the only reaction that was more over and beyond than the NFL's are these ardent fans who still believe people in or out of football don't think (re: know) the Pats are cheaters, anyway.

IT'S A NEW YEAR! KICKOFF IN A COUPLE HOURS!

Please, enough with the silliness.It's time for football. Let's focus on football.

Couldnt have said it any better.

 

[Koya]

Gee, you seem so genuine in wanting to let this cheating bs go and get to some football.

What can I say, I'm a complicated man.

And, all kidding aside, while this may provide ongoing entertainment on a slow Wed. AM while we wait for the first real practice reports of the week to come out, it's bout time that we can be focused on freakin' football again.

 

[espnespn]

Be even more believable if the source had a scrap of evidence, like a playsheet kept for posterity. Even Matt Walsh kept a couple spygate tapes for later use. He even "indicated" they may contain a walkthrough of the Rams practice.

I don't even care about physical evidence -- that's too high a bar to set for simply informing common sense. No one's risking imprisonment here ... courtroom standards are not needed.

Someone coming forward publicly would be plenty. Two people coming forward publicly would be pretty much unassailable. Then the Cosby-esque avalanche would begin.

Belichick, I believe, has it in him to grate people pretty harshly. What do people risk in speaking out against him (or Kraft) publicly? Never have understood that. Can they really ruin lives of people who speak out?

Accusations are not proof.

How about if a few anonymous people on this board falsely accuse you of molesting kids like Jared from Subway without any evidence? By your logic, if more than one person falsely accuses you, then it is true.

 

[espnespn]

Sorry. Stepped outside deflategate for a second. I was talking about the common journalistic practice. It's loathsome.

that's just it - ESPN is not, IMO - a pristine example of journalistic integrity.

and sadly, that is the state of most journalism - it's part of the fallout in the newspaper/magazine industry dying - clicks/shares/views all lead to revenue - and revenue drives the editorial decision making.

ESPN, no. Don Van Natta, however, absolutely is.

Funny note here- he did a BS Report interview with Bill Simmons after the Ray Rice/Ravens story. Simmons pretty much worshiped him throughout as he systematically went after Goodell and the Ravens ownership. And even now if you look at Simmons' twitter rant after the story went up you'll see he never questions the story itself, instead going for a whole "sour grapes" rant intended to antagonize certain fan bases. You can tell even through his shtick that he knows the story is almost certainly true and well done.

Forget Simmons, the actual Patriots' statement refuted hardly any specifics other than a technicality. Comical.

No need to refute baseless accusations that have no proof. Please provide some proof of guilt first.

 

[espnespn]

Personally I think its silly that a playbook would even be left behind anyway. My issue is the expectation that all teams must waste their time and employ full-time counter-espionage tactics when playing the Patriots. Just ####### stop cheating.

Just stop wasting time worrying about all this "cheating" nonsense, stop making excuses, and start focusing on being better at football. Like the Patriots do.

They also have some focus on cheating, obviously. Teams would do well to better their efforts in such areas if its gonna be such a frequent happenstance.

Salty Haters have a focus on making false accusations obviously: Formation-gate, Waiver-Gate, Kicking Ball Deflategate, and Deflategate were all false/debunked accusations.

And then denying the truth, like when a federal judge says there is no evidence.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

You are the one who keeps spewing false information along with the salty hater stuff.

Deflategate was not debunked or proven false.

Only thing was proven was that the NFL did not follow proper procedure and the judge questioned if there was "direct" evidence of some conspiracy. And that was in his questioning, not in his opinion of the case.

So you can keep repeating that along with salty hater...it just means even more people are going to ignore everything you have to say.

Haha, it takes a special kind of Salty Hater who ignores a federal judge saying there was no evidence. Are you saying the judge didn't really mean it, when he said there was no evidence?

The delusion of Salty Haters knows no bounds.

 

[Koya]

Be even more believable if the source had a scrap of evidence, like a playsheet kept for posterity. Even Matt Walsh kept a couple spygate tapes for later use. He even "indicated" they may contain a walkthrough of the Rams practice.

I don't even care about physical evidence -- that's too high a bar to set for simply informing common sense. No one's risking imprisonment here ... courtroom standards are not needed.

Someone coming forward publicly would be plenty. Two people coming forward publicly would be pretty much unassailable. Then the Cosby-esque avalanche would begin.

Belichick, I believe, has it in him to grate people pretty harshly. What do people risk in speaking out against him (or Kraft) publicly? Never have understood that. Can they really ruin lives of people who speak out?

Accusations are not proof.

How about if a few anonymous people on this board falsely accuse you of molesting kids like Jared from Subway without any evidence? By your logic, if more than one person falsely accuses you, then it is true.

But, once the Feds are involved and get a whole bunch of evidence, it would be just as silly for a group of people - who just about all are Pats fans - to deny that the deeds were done.

Now, in the case of the Pats, you want to stand somehow on Deflategate "didnt really happen" its a foolishly naive approach, but I'll grant you that. To say that they are not "Cheaters" - well, that's been well documented.

And the more this small group of fanatics want to dispel the ugly reality (it is reality, and it's that they've been caught cheating more than once and in some egregious ways), the more they bring back to prominence the underlying issue:

Deflategate or not, Pats are a cheating organization.

Whatever some judge may have said just about one incident of many (with or without context, I find you all prefer none so the cheating doesnt seem to bad).

We aren't even asking you to admit it. Just stop trying to dispell what every logical person knows - the Pats have a history of skirting the rules at best, and at times, flat out cheating. We'd disappear like the company mascots died out in the Simpsons when they were ignored.

For some reason, there is this DRIVING reason to re-write the reality that everyone else lives in, and you have to dive in and try to counter accepted, commonplace truths.

Let is go folks, enjoy the season. Enjoy your Super Bowl win. You probably would have gotten it anyway. We can't know, but probably if we are honest.

Now, relax, let us play our silly games in quiet, and this thread will nicely drop to page 12. I think that's how many major cheating scandals the Pats have gotten into, right? I've lost count.

 

[espnespn]

Deflategate was not debunked or proven false.

nor was it proven true

aren't we supposed to know something is true before we make accusations?

so it's neither true nor false - yet an unbiased federal judge looked it all over and didn't see any evidence that it was true.

And with that, you've come to the conclusion, that it's true.

that's insane you know...

He didn't see any direct evidence of Brady's involvement.

He did not rule on what evidence there was of deflation by the Patriots staff.

Considering the Patriots willingly paid a large fine and gave up a draft pick...with other information already known, there is plenty there to conclude balls were tampered with after inspection.

But it seems again that nothing short of video of a guy in full Patriots gear deflating balls will be good enough for some of you.

Kraft has no legal recourse to challenge the team punishment.

There is nothing to conclude the balls were tampered with -- that is your imagination. A federal judge reviewed everything, and said in open court that there was no evidence.

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

 

[espnespn]

Be even more believable if the source had a scrap of evidence, like a playsheet kept for posterity. Even Matt Walsh kept a couple spygate tapes for later use. He even "indicated" they may contain a walkthrough of the Rams practice.

I don't even care about physical evidence -- that's too high a bar to set for simply informing common sense. No one's risking imprisonment here ... courtroom standards are not needed.

Someone coming forward publicly would be plenty. Two people coming forward publicly would be pretty much unassailable. Then the Cosby-esque avalanche would begin.

Belichick, I believe, has it in him to grate people pretty harshly. What do people risk in speaking out against him (or Kraft) publicly? Never have understood that. Can they really ruin lives of people who speak out?

Accusations are not proof.

How about if a few anonymous people on this board falsely accuse you of molesting kids like Jared from Subway without any evidence? By your logic, if more than one person falsely accuses you, then it is true.

But, once the Feds are involved and get a whole bunch of evidence, it would be just as silly for a group of people - who just about all are Pats fans - to deny that the deeds were done.

Now, in the case of the Pats, you want to stand somehow on Deflategate "didnt really happen" its a foolishly naive approach, but I'll grant you that. To say that they are not "Cheaters" - well, that's been well documented.

And the more this small group of fanatics want to dispel the ugly reality (it is reality, and it's that they've been caught cheating more than once and in some egregious ways), the more they bring back to prominence the underlying issue:

Deflategate or not, Pats are a cheating organization.

Whatever some judge may have said just about one incident of many (with or without context, I find you all prefer none so the cheating doesnt seem to bad).

We aren't even asking you to admit it. Just stop trying to dispell what every logical person knows - the Pats have a history of skirting the rules at best, and at times, flat out cheating. We'd disappear like the company mascots died out in the Simpsons when they were ignored.

For some reason, there is this DRIVING reason to re-write the reality that everyone else lives in, and you have to dive in and try to counter accepted, commonplace truths.

Let is go folks, enjoy the season. Enjoy your Super Bowl win. You probably would have gotten it anyway. We can't know, but probably if we are honest.

Now, relax, let us play our silly games in quiet, and this thread will nicely drop to page 12. I think that's how many major cheating scandals the Pats have gotten into, right? I've lost count.

Too bad a federal judge disagrees with you, and said there was no evidence supporting Deflategate.

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

 

[Koya]

Be even more believable if the source had a scrap of evidence, like a playsheet kept for posterity. Even Matt Walsh kept a couple spygate tapes for later use. He even "indicated" they may contain a walkthrough of the Rams practice.

I don't even care about physical evidence -- that's too high a bar to set for simply informing common sense. No one's risking imprisonment here ... courtroom standards are not needed.

Someone coming forward publicly would be plenty. Two people coming forward publicly would be pretty much unassailable. Then the Cosby-esque avalanche would begin.

Belichick, I believe, has it in him to grate people pretty harshly. What do people risk in speaking out against him (or Kraft) publicly? Never have understood that. Can they really ruin lives of people who speak out?

Accusations are not proof.

How about if a few anonymous people on this board falsely accuse you of molesting kids like Jared from Subway without any evidence? By your logic, if more than one person falsely accuses you, then it is true.

But, once the Feds are involved and get a whole bunch of evidence, it would be just as silly for a group of people - who just about all are Pats fans - to deny that the deeds were done.

Now, in the case of the Pats, you want to stand somehow on Deflategate "didnt really happen" its a foolishly naive approach, but I'll grant you that. To say that they are not "Cheaters" - well, that's been well documented.

And the more this small group of fanatics want to dispel the ugly reality (it is reality, and it's that they've been caught cheating more than once and in some egregious ways), the more they bring back to prominence the underlying issue:

Deflategate or not, Pats are a cheating organization.

Whatever some judge may have said just about one incident of many (with or without context, I find you all prefer none so the cheating doesnt seem to bad).

We aren't even asking you to admit it. Just stop trying to dispell what every logical person knows - the Pats have a history of skirting the rules at best, and at times, flat out cheating. We'd disappear like the company mascots died out in the Simpsons when they were ignored.

For some reason, there is this DRIVING reason to re-write the reality that everyone else lives in, and you have to dive in and try to counter accepted, commonplace truths.

Let is go folks, enjoy the season. Enjoy your Super Bowl win. You probably would have gotten it anyway. We can't know, but probably if we are honest.

Now, relax, let us play our silly games in quiet, and this thread will nicely drop to page 12. I think that's how many major cheating scandals the Pats have gotten into, right? I've lost count.

Too bad a federal judge disagrees with you, and said there was no evidence supporting Deflategate.

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

I have also noticed an amazing lack of reading comprehension among this delusional clan of pats fans.

Did you READ the part where I said regardless about what a judge said on this ONE instance, or even if this one instance of deflategate REALLY didn't happen in any way (not talking any legal hurdles)... I said I will give you that.

The organization is still one that is considered, rightfully so per the historical and factual record, as cheaters.

Heck, even if deflategate did happen, it's hardly much of an infraction. Yet, this core clan of fanatics must defend to the death the lost honor of a group of cheaters - successful ones, but that's the record. And the more this group yells otherwise, the more it just reinforces that ugly truth.

PS - If you have already forgotten, that truth is even assuming deflategate never happened, that does not change the historical record and reality. I guess you can say there is no evidence to taint this one super bowl. Maybe that's the motivation?

7 min to kickoff. Thank god.

 

[espnespn]

Everyone ready for the Patriots raising another SuperBowl banner tonight?

So sweet, knowing that Deflategate was debunked by a federal judge. It is almost as great as the actual SB win over the Seahawks.

 

[Slider]

A federal judge who parties with the nfl owner he just bailed out. Almost like cheating...

 

[T J]

They cheated. We all know it.

 

[espnespn]

They cheated. We all know it.

Wrong, a federal judge reviewed everything, and said in open court that there was no evidence. Keep denying the truth!

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

 

[Tango]

They cheated. We all know it.

I'd have to agree.

Watching this it's interesting that I now have feelings of dislike toward the Patriots. Why?

Because of Patriots fans so desperately wishing they were hated as much as the Yankees or Duke...I have actually fallen for their desperate little plea to be disliked and I dont like it.

I always liked Kraft well enough.

Brady too. Much respect.

But now? With all of these wanna-be Yankees in here and deniers of anything against their patron saints? I cant stomach them anymore.

 

[espnespn]

They cheated. We all know it.

I'd have to agree.

Watching this it's interesting that I now have feelings of dislike toward the Patriots. Why?

Because of Patriots fans so desperately wishing they were hated as much as the Yankees or Duke...I have actually fallen for their desperate little plea to be disliked and I dont like it.

I always liked Kraft well enough.

Brady too. Much respect.

But now? With all of these wanna-be Yankees in here and deniers of anything against their patron saints? I cant stomach them anymore.

Sorry you disagree with the federal judge, who said there was no evidence. The only one here denying the truth are the Salty Haters.

 

[SeniorVBDStudent]

They cheated. We all know it.

Who? The Colts?

 

[T J]

They cheated. We all know it.

Who? The Colts?

They cheated. We all know it.

I'd have to agree.

Watching this it's interesting that I now have feelings of dislike toward the Patriots. Why?

Because of Patriots fans so desperately wishing they were hated as much as the Yankees or Duke...I have actually fallen for their desperate little plea to be disliked and I dont like it.

I always liked Kraft well enough.

Brady too. Much respect.

But now? With all of these wanna-be Yankees in here and deniers of anything against their patron saints? I cant stomach them anymore.

Sorry you disagree with the federal judge, who said there was no evidence. The only one here denying the truth are the Salty Haters.

By the way...that Salty Hater thing? It's really stupid. I mean really, really stupid.

 

[Tango]

They cheated. We all know it.

I'd have to agree.

Watching this it's interesting that I now have feelings of dislike toward the Patriots. Why?

Because of Patriots fans so desperately wishing they were hated as much as the Yankees or Duke...I have actually fallen for their desperate little plea to be disliked and I dont like it.

I always liked Kraft well enough.

Brady too. Much respect.

But now? With all of these wanna-be Yankees in here and deniers of anything against their patron saints? I cant stomach them anymore.

Sorry you disagree with the federal judge, who said there was no evidence. The only one here denying the truth are the Salty Haters.

There's always been no proof.There's always been plenty of evidence.

Really not hard to follow, but whatever...

 

[Class Dismissed]

Why is the Pats radio broadcast coming through the opposing teams headphones??

 

[espnespn]

They cheated. We all know it.

Who? The Colts?

They cheated. We all know it.

I'd have to agree.

Watching this it's interesting that I now have feelings of dislike toward the Patriots. Why?

Because of Patriots fans so desperately wishing they were hated as much as the Yankees or Duke...I have actually fallen for their desperate little plea to be disliked and I dont like it.

I always liked Kraft well enough.

Brady too. Much respect.

But now? With all of these wanna-be Yankees in here and deniers of anything against their patron saints? I cant stomach them anymore.

Sorry you disagree with the federal judge, who said there was no evidence. The only one here denying the truth are the Salty Haters.

By the way...that Salty Hater thing? It's really stupid. I mean really, really stupid.

Hmmm, you can't understand plain English from the judge, so you start calling things stupid?

A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

 

[McGarnicle]

Wow, nobody covering up the Pats' bs anymore....millions of people just heard collinsworth say they're a bunch of cheaters. Every team goes there and their radio jams mysteriously. Every. Team.

 

[espnespn]

They cheated. We all know it.

I'd have to agree.

Watching this it's interesting that I now have feelings of dislike toward the Patriots. Why?

Because of Patriots fans so desperately wishing they were hated as much as the Yankees or Duke...I have actually fallen for their desperate little plea to be disliked and I dont like it.

I always liked Kraft well enough.

Brady too. Much respect.

But now? With all of these wanna-be Yankees in here and deniers of anything against their patron saints? I cant stomach them anymore.

Sorry you disagree with the federal judge, who said there was no evidence. The only one here denying the truth are the Salty Haters.

There's always been no proof.There's always been plenty of evidence.

Really not hard to follow, but whatever...

Wrong, a federal judge said there was no evidence. He said it in plain English, not sure why it is hard to follow.

A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

 

[randall146]

Collinsworth sounds a little salty tonight

 

[Tango]

They cheated. We all know it.

Who? The Colts?

They cheated. We all know it.

I'd have to agree.

Watching this it's interesting that I now have feelings of dislike toward the Patriots. Why?

Because of Patriots fans so desperately wishing they were hated as much as the Yankees or Duke...I have actually fallen for their desperate little plea to be disliked and I dont like it.

I always liked Kraft well enough.

Brady too. Much respect.

But now? With all of these wanna-be Yankees in here and deniers of anything against their patron saints? I cant stomach them anymore.

Sorry you disagree with the federal judge, who said there was no evidence. The only one here denying the truth are the Salty Haters.

By the way...that Salty Hater thing? It's really stupid. I mean really, really stupid.

Hmmm, you can't understand plain English from the judge, so you start calling things stupid?

A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

Sorry, doesn't convince me and most others.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

They cheated. We all know it.

Who? The Colts?

They cheated. We all know it.

I'd have to agree.

Watching this it's interesting that I now have feelings of dislike toward the Patriots. Why?

Because of Patriots fans so desperately wishing they were hated as much as the Yankees or Duke...I have actually fallen for their desperate little plea to be disliked and I dont like it.

I always liked Kraft well enough.

Brady too. Much respect.

But now? With all of these wanna-be Yankees in here and deniers of anything against their patron saints? I cant stomach them anymore.

Sorry you disagree with the federal judge, who said there was no evidence. The only one here denying the truth are the Salty Haters.

By the way...that Salty Hater thing? It's really stupid. I mean really, really stupid.

Hmmm, you can't understand plain English from the judge, so you start calling things stupid?

A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

Sorry, doesn't convince me and most others.

thats because you are soooo unbiased lol

 

[espnespn]

They cheated. We all know it.

Who? The Colts?

They cheated. We all know it.

I'd have to agree.

Watching this it's interesting that I now have feelings of dislike toward the Patriots. Why?

Because of Patriots fans so desperately wishing they were hated as much as the Yankees or Duke...I have actually fallen for their desperate little plea to be disliked and I dont like it.

I always liked Kraft well enough.

Brady too. Much respect.

But now? With all of these wanna-be Yankees in here and deniers of anything against their patron saints? I cant stomach them anymore.

Sorry you disagree with the federal judge, who said there was no evidence. The only one here denying the truth are the Salty Haters.

By the way...that Salty Hater thing? It's really stupid. I mean really, really stupid.

Hmmm, you can't understand plain English from the judge, so you start calling things stupid?

A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

Sorry, doesn't convince me and most others.

That's your problem, if you want to deny the truth. A federal judge reviewed everything and said there was no evidence. Period.

 

[GoBirds]

They cheated. We all know it.

Wrong, a federal judge reviewed everything, and said in open court that there was no evidence. Keep denying the truth!

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

He ruled against Goodells procedure in punishing not the cheating. Sorry. Cheaters.

 

[Tool]

They cheated. We all know it.

Wrong, a federal judge reviewed everything, and said in open court that there was no evidence. Keep denying the truth!

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

He ruled against Goodells procedure in punishing not the cheating. Sorry. Cheaters.

Time to let it go, man. Try to enjoy the season.

 

[BustedKnuckles]

They cheated. We all know it.

Wrong, a federal judge reviewed everything, and said in open court that there was no evidence. Keep denying the truth!

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

He ruled against Goodells procedure in punishing not the cheating. Sorry. Cheaters.

Time to let it go, man. Try to enjoy the season.

i gotta stop looking in this thread...its like watching a tard fight ....endless tomfoolery

 

[espnespn]

They cheated. We all know it.

Wrong, a federal judge reviewed everything, and said in open court that there was no evidence. Keep denying the truth!

"A skeptical Berman sounded unconvinced: "What is the evidence of a scheme or conspiracy that covers the Jan. 18 game? I'm having trouble finding it."

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/football/roger-goodell-greeted-boos-deflategate-hearing-article-1.2323018

He ruled against Goodells procedure in punishing not the cheating. Sorry. Cheaters.

Yes, maybe the judge said there was no evidence, when he actually meant the exact opposite. That must be it!