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PBS Frontline : The Retirement Gamble, sorta Must See (1 Viewer)

Slapdash said:
$120K a year in retirement is a great deal.  I have a co-worker who is trying to plan for $150K in his though.  Pretty luxurious retirement IMO
Crabs legs or Filet's for dinner,   no scotch aged under 15 years,    Winters on an island,   High Limit Poker tourneys.    It's gonna be great.

At least I'll need that from 55-70,   after that probably half that..   so maybe SS will fill in a lot of those gaps.

 
NewlyRetired said:
It actually made me cringe when I read it. 

Even when we add a decent amount of travel to our retirement once our daughter is settled in college, we won't come anywhere near that number.
I suppose if I tore down my entire budget and looked all all of the things I wouldn't have to pay for now that I do....   it could probably be a lot less

But I sure have a lot of really high dollar hobbies on the agenda.   

 
NewlyRetired said:
It actually made me cringe when I read it. 

Even when we add a decent amount of travel to our retirement once our daughter is settled in college, we won't come anywhere near that number.
Admittedly, retirement expenses are not an area I have put much thought in to.  I have only increased our spending by 2.5%/yr based on what we spend today.  A lot of expenses will drop off, and obviously some new ones will will be added, but I'm not predicting much of a net change.  

What did yours do when you retired?  Up or Down?

 
$120k per year in today's dollars for retirement :lol:   I love you dentist.   I'm not sure if I'm capable of spending over 2k per week.

 
I don't post much in this thread, many people seem to have all the answers so I just nod and write down interesting notes...I have a book on my shelf that I actually got on a recommendation here maybe 10 years ago but it's been a good book and helped us do a lot of what you are advocating which is spread it out over index funds and the like. We invest heavily into the 401Ks and at times have gotten an unbelievable match. For many years my wife received 2 for every 1 she invested, that was an easy max out and we were shocked to learn a lot of folks did not put anything into their 401ks even with the outstanding match offered.

When I learned that my wife worked with people driving nicer cars and making less than her but not putting one dime in their 401ks, my first indicator that human beings are even dumber as a whole than previously thought. How do you turn down free money that will then be working as compound interest FOR YOU and not against you?

-The Intelligent Investor is the name of the book, it's a revised edition so I imagine it's been around since Moby **** was a minnow. Nothing fancy in it, just good basics.  
Christ, $36k in matching if she maxed out her 401k.  That would be insane to be saving $54k per year.   

 
$120k per year in today's dollars for retirement :lol:   I love you dentist.   I'm not sure if I'm capable of spending over 2k per week.
The other side of that is that I like having huge goals... and if I miss..  well..   maybe i'll only have 90K a year to spend.

But I already spend nearly 100K a year as it is..  on... well... not very much enjoyment...  so i figure I've gotta have more to have fun!

 
SouthJersey said:
Does anyone have any experience with Betterment or Schwab Intelligent Portfolios?

I changed jobs last fall to a company that doesn't offer a 401k.  Blows not being able to shield $18k/yr from the government.  Have been using what I would've saved in retirement accounts to pay off student loans that are at 6.5%.  Down to my last $3k so soon will need to start saving in a taxable account.  Was reading about Betterment and how they let you pick an allocation and invest in low cost index funds for you, with auto rebalancing and tax loss harvesting (the most interesting thing about the service) for a pretty low fee (.25% for $10-100k, .15% for >$100k).  Schwab does the same for free, though from what I read the knock on them is they get their "fee" by forcing you to keep a certain percentage of your portfolio in cash (I believe I read the most aggressive asset allocation still makes you keep 6% in cash).

Since this is in a taxable account the tax loss harvesting is the main thing I'm interested in.  Otherwise I'd just put the money in VFIAX in my Vanguard account.
Two questions

does your employer offer HDHC?

do you invest in IRA?

 
Two questions

does your employer offer HDHC?

do you invest in IRA?
HDHC -- Yes, however my wife works for a university and their health plan is super cheap if we get all of our care through the university affiliated hospital/offices. No deductible and no copays aside from $5 for most scripts.  To cover our family of 3 (4 this month), they take $60/mo out of her paycheck.  I'd pay more for the HSA eligible plan through my employer.

IRA -- I max out both of our IRAs, as well as max the contribution to wife's 403b.

 
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The other side of that is that I like having huge goals... and if I miss..  well..   maybe i'll only have 90K a year to spend.

But I already spend nearly 100K a year as it is..  on... well... not very much enjoyment...  so i figure I've gotta have more to have fun!
This is not possible based on what you say here.  Would love it if you could show us where your 100K/yr goes.

 
The other side of that is that I like having huge goals... and if I miss..  well..   maybe i'll only have 90K a year to spend.

But I already spend nearly 100K a year as it is..  on... well... not very much enjoyment...  so i figure I've gotta have more to have fun!
100k seems high.   What are you spending that on?

If I invested 25k per year, I could reach 120k/yr if I worked until 65.    Its amazing the difference that some extra years of work and contributing rather than withdrawing does for your yearly retirement amount.  Retiring at 55 which is the plan, I'm at less than half of that.

 
What did yours do when you retired?  Up or Down?
When I planned our retirement it was based on living the identical way (expenses) we did before I retired and then I added in a budget for travel for about 20 years.

So far our retirement expenses have come in much less than we originally planned.   One of the reasons is that we overestimated some items and the other reason is that we have experienced a near virtual zero % inflation since we retired (based on our personal expenses).  We are tracking to spend almost the identical amount of money this year as we did in 2010 (our first full calendar year in retirement). 

I did not factor that in 0 growth in expenses but I figure as the years go on that will balance out when inflation eventually becomes an issue again.

 
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This is not possible based on what you say here.  Would love it if you could show us where your 100K/yr goes.

Home


$39,634.73


Food & Dining


$14,939.99


Health & Fitness


$12,105.99


Shopping


$9,168.92


Education


$5,600.00


Bills & Utilities


$5,474.71


Auto & Transport


$4,744.57


Uncategorized


$3,651.91


Travel


$2,515.73


Kids


$2,141.77


Gifts & Donations


$989.63


Personal Care


$728.10


Entertainment


$615.70


Misc Expenses


$375.00


Business Services


$309.53


Taxes


$264.38


Financial


$178.87


Fees & Charges


$17.00


Show fewer


 



Last 12 months via Mint

 
$40k for home would most likely go down in retirement, no? I'm assuming you're trying to pay off your mortgage asap.

So would the $5,600 for education. 

 
Dentist said:
I was nervous they were going to require me to have near 5 mil.

I'm on a reasonable pace for 3 if the market cooperates,  should get a mil or so from inheritance.... but it sounds like retiring at 55 may not be feasible unless i get my butt in gear and do more dentistry.   I may have to shift to 58 and then commit to dying sooner  #morecigars
:gang2:

Home


$39,634.73


Food & Dining


$14,939.99


Health & Fitness


$12,105.99


Shopping


$9,168.92


Education


$5,600.00


Bills & Utilities


$5,474.71


Auto & Transport


$4,744.57


Uncategorized


$3,651.91


Travel


$2,515.73


Kids


$2,141.77


Gifts & Donations


$989.63


Personal Care


$728.10


Entertainment


$615.70


Misc Expenses


$375.00


Business Services


$309.53


Taxes


$264.38


Financial


$178.87


Fees & Charges


$17.00


Show fewer


 



Last 12 months via Mint
so that's only twice the 3500' ft house we pay for. 

I assume your taxes aren't income tax.

 
:gang2:

so that's only twice the 3500' ft house we pay for. 

I assume your taxes aren't income tax.
I dumped an extra 20K in principal on the home this year.

Taxes are property taxes for vehicles.

 
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Christ, $36k in matching if she maxed out her 401k.  That would be insane to be saving $54k per year.   
At UM just to keep the numbers somewhat reasonable let's assume she put in $2,500 they put in $5k. If she had put in none UM still put in 5% and that's why a lot of her colleagues never contribute. They think they are getting ahead because they have more disposable cash on hand now...their choice. They matched up to 5% so there was a limit to how much you could pillage them for. We actually didn't know it was as good as it was until about Year 2 or 3, all together about 8 years total there. 

But the new place made an offer we couldn't refuse, even with the difference in benefits it made a lot of sense to high tail it out of Miami. 

That would be an interesting question, what would you have to make income wise at a new job assuming you were making $50k and contributing $2,500/5% a month with a 2:1 match by the employer. Assume the new place is actually 50 cents on the dollar up to 8%...I bet you would need to make a significant amount more in income over a long period of time to make up the difference.

 
$40k for home would most likely go down in retirement, no? I'm assuming you're trying to pay off your mortgage asap.

So would the $5,600 for education. 
Yes, my mortgage is just a couple payments away from being paid off.

But we're buying a new home next year,   I don't have enough to buy it outright.

My home is worth ~200k,  the next home will likely be worth 350-450K.

So I'll be taking out a new ~200k mortgage

 
Home


$39,634.73


Food & Dining


$14,939.99


Health & Fitness


$12,105.99


Shopping


$9,168.92


Education


$5,600.00


Bills & Utilities


$5,474.71


Auto & Transport


$4,744.57


Uncategorized


$3,651.91


Travel


$2,515.73


Kids


$2,141.77


Gifts & Donations


$989.63


Personal Care


$728.10


Entertainment


$615.70


Misc Expenses


$375.00


Business Services


$309.53


Taxes


$264.38


Financial


$178.87


Fees & Charges


$17.00


Show fewer


 



Last 12 months via Mint
ok, so lets break this down

*some of the $39k would be gone leaving only property tax and house insurance.  I don't know how much of the $39k is mortgage.

*$5600 for Education would be gone

*$2100 for kids would be gone

* I am going to bet your spending on health and fitness will drop dramatically.

I bet in retirement you could easily shed close to $30k a year.  I think you are likely in a much better spot expense wise than you realize, unless you intend to immediately replace that $30k in spending you will save with more spending.

 
So I'll be taking out a new ~200k mortgage
ok that is an important item.  If you want to retire in 17 years I would see if you could do your best to pay that off in a 15 year mortgage.

Shedding your mortgage before you retire would be a key item in meeting your goals.

 
ok, so lets break this down

*some of the $39k would be gone leaving only property tax and house insurance.  I don't know how much of the $39k is mortgage.

*$5600 for Education would be gone

*$2100 for kids would be gone

* I am going to bet your spending on health and fitness will drop dramatically.

I bet in retirement you could easily shed close to $30k a year.  I think you are likely in a much better spot expense wise than you realize, unless you intend to immediately replace that $30k in spending you will save with more spending.
I think we're all well aware of the lavish retirement that dentist is planning.  That's why he's a balla and I'm just living vicariously through him

 
Dentist, what are your plans for college payments (the likely huge part that the 529 won't pay for)?

I forget how many kids you have but if you expect to pay for some/most of the college, make sure you factor that into your models.

 
I think we're all well aware of the lavish retirement that dentist is planning.  That's why he's a balla and I'm just living vicariously through him
I am a long time member of the early retirement online community. 

The vast majority of people who are able to retire early do so by cost control.  When people cost control for decades, I have found that it is rare for them to all of a sudden start to spend like crazy once they get to retirement.

That being said, Dentist is doing the right way because he recognizes his needs and wants early so that he can try and plan for it.   His expense projections are very high but he is also willing to say that if he does not reach them no real harm done which is cool.

 
Home


$39,634.73


Food & Dining


$14,939.99


Health & Fitness


$12,105.99


Shopping


$9,168.92


Education


$5,600.00


Bills & Utilities


$5,474.71


Auto & Transport


$4,744.57


Uncategorized


$3,651.91


Travel


$2,515.73


Kids


$2,141.77


Gifts & Donations


$989.63


Personal Care


$728.10


Entertainment


$615.70


Misc Expenses


$375.00


Business Services


$309.53


Taxes


$264.38


Financial


$178.87


Fees & Charges


$17.00


Show fewer


 



Last 12 months via Mint
Cool, I'm somewhat new to Mint, where do you go to do this?

 
Cool, I'm somewhat new to Mint, where do you go to do this?
are you asking about the web site?

www.mint.com

They are owned by the people who run quicken and turbo tax.

mint has an app for almost every OS I believe it you like to be mobile when doing finances.

I have never used it myself as I think quicken provides everything Mint does plus a little more.

 
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I can't speak for Dentist but he is honest and up front that he wants to live as good if not better from this day moving forward until he leaves the Earth...he has no intentions of slowing down or going from a 5 bedroom lifestyle to a 2 bedroom villa if he can help it. 

I know $3M sounds like an obnoxious number to some folks but I bet it's achievable or close for many middle class folks in their current 30s and 40s. You gotta start small. I would say it felt like forever before we finally had $25k-$30k and something to actually talk about as to how it should be invested. 

Wife and I don't like to talk about money all the time. Actually I like it but she doesn't so together we tend to drift towards things we don't have to keep an eye on much. Those index funds and the like work great. 

HOWEVER...we also made in owning a home in 3 years in Miami about what it took to invest and save for well over 10 to maybe 15 years in these 401k. I think a combo of both stocks and real state is smart for the basics for many. I owned a home after the other things were already set up. And I invested in a rental property in a city I didn't live and never saw one dime, just lost a lot of money and learned a lot of lessons. I managed to recover 75% of that investment but still lost a lot of time...but the market was in the crapper in 2008-2010+ so I wasn't alone at the time. 

It's like working out or getting a diet you can stick to and maintain, it's very important to take care of your finances just like it is to maintain a healthy lifestyle. 

It looks like $1M will get you about $3,500 a month income, you add that to say SS and you get close to $5k income. If you have been able to pay off a mortgage or have reasonable rent and not a lot of other bills, you can live a pretty good life when your old. You will be in much better shape than many around you. 

 
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ok that is an important item.  If you want to retire in 17 years I would see if you could do your best to pay that off in a 15 year mortgage.

Shedding your mortgage before you retire would be a key item in meeting your goals.
Yes, I intend to take out a 15 year note, not a 30 year note.

I currently have a 10 year note on the home I live in, and that's what i'm about to finish paying.

 
I know $3M sounds like an obnoxious number to some folks but I bet it's achievable or close for many middle class folks in the current 30s and 40s.
He needs close to $5m to reach his goals, not $3m.

The $3m was quoted thinking it was todays expenses.  Once you factor in the 17 years until he wants to retire it will be closer to $5m nest he needs.

 
Dentist, what are your plans for college payments (the likely huge part that the 529 won't pay for)?

I forget how many kids you have but if you expect to pay for some/most of the college, make sure you factor that into your models.
2.

I plan to pay for all the education including any professional school they may have.

My grandfather has about 80k invested for them for education.    I will take the inheritance money I get from my parents and the first thing that it gets used for is their education.  I won't touch it until that is paid for.

 
He needs close to $5m to reach his goals, not $3m.

The $3m was quoted thinking it was todays expenses.  Once you factor in the 17 years until he wants to retire it will be closer to $5m nest he needs.
But let's be reasonable. $3m is a lot more than a lot of folks entering retirement. I wonder what % of the baby boomers retired with $1M in their portfolio...I bet the number is not high when i do some research. 

 
Dentist, you think you can get to $3MM at retirement, inclusive of a $1MM inheritance.  So $2MM then saved.

With rough numbers, how do you project it out?

Age 25

30

35

40

45

50

55

(I think you had 55 as retired)

Just curious to the curve

 
But let's be reasonable. $3m is a lot more than a lot of folks entering retirement. I wonder what % of the baby boomers retired with $1M in their portfolio...I bet the number is not high when i do some research. 
What does reason have to do with this?  We are talking about one persons specific goals, not the general persons goals.

Your goals might be completely different from Dentists and as such you need a completely different plan.

 
He needs close to $5m to reach his goals, not $3m.

The $3m was quoted thinking it was todays expenses.  Once you factor in the 17 years until he wants to retire it will be closer to $5m nest he needs.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/robertlaura/2014/08/28/this-is-what-1000-of-monthly-retirement-income-really-looks-like/#532f300b37cf

In case you’re interested in what all three scenarios would look like combined, the average yield overall would be roughly 4.45%, which not only provides diversification into various investment types but requires only $270,000 to put $12,000 per year in your pocket … and that’s without touching your principal.
so roughly $1 Million for $4k / month.

 
2.

I plan to pay for all the education including any professional school they may have.

My grandfather has about 80k invested for them for education.    I will take the inheritance money I get from my parents and the first thing that it gets used for is their education.  I won't touch it until that is paid for.
How old are your kids?  If they are under 5ish, a fairly good chunk of the $1m inheritance might have to go to education if both kids go to private schools.

Keep that in mind when factoring in how much of the inheritance can go towards your retirement nest egg.

 
yup, numbers can be changed a million different ways to make the outcome much worse or much better.

We used the preset numbers on firecalc to figure out that he needed ~5m to achieve his goals of spending $120k in todays dollars 17 years from now and having the money last 35 years with a success rate in the 90's.

 
How old are your kids?  If they are under 5ish, a fairly good chunk of the $1m inheritance might have to go to education if both kids go to private schools.

Keep that in mind when factoring in how much of the inheritance can go towards your retirement nest egg.
both are under 3.   the whole mil could end up going there if they want to be dentites (lol... i'd never encourage a kid to goto dental school)

 
Dentist, you think you can get to $3MM at retirement, inclusive of a $1MM inheritance.  So $2MM then saved.
we have to be careful in factoring in the inheritance to his nest egg because of his desire (very cool IMO) to pay for all the education including grad school for both kids.

It is hard to predict so far in the future but if the kids go to a private school much of the inheritance might be funneled in that direction.

 
On a side note, there is no way I'm paying $1M for my kids education.  Not a chance.  I do plan to help them out financially for school, and one of the ways is going to be to teach them about ROI.  No way spending $1M on school is a good investment.

 
Dentist, you think you can get to $3MM at retirement, inclusive of a $1MM inheritance.  So $2MM then saved.

With rough numbers, how do you project it out?

Age 25

30

35

40

45

50

55

(I think you had 55 as retired)

Just curious to the curve
I'm not 100% sure what you are asking for.   I'm 38 now FWIW.

I have about 800k now.  My plan is to get to at least 3,  and not count that other million.

And it sounds like I need until 58.  

 
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On a side note, there is no way I'm paying $1M for my kids education.  Not a chance.  I do plan to help them out financially for school, and one of the ways is going to be to teach them about ROI.  No way spending $1M on school is a good investment.
That's fine.   But i'll pay whatever it takes.

I graduated with no debt, and I intend to pay it forward.  The greatest gift I ever received was my education and not having a debt for it.

 
I'd like to think that I'm only paying that if its a premier school such as an ivy or a non-ivy like duke, stanford, mit, etc.  Otherwise, some concessions need to be made. 

 
:lol:    $300k is probably a lot more
OK so you understand where I am coming from. It's the exception not the rule that people invest and save. I'm sure the numbers are different here vs other types of forums but honestly I bet if there were secret documents of everyone's finances in here that many would be shocked by how little everyone actually puts away compared to the monopoly of educated middle class folks who post in here.

And some people have no intentions of saving and scrimping until they are 65 or 70 in the hopes of spending it little by little until they might reach 95 or 100, I can understand why some folks make a plan til they are 75-80 and figure anything after is just a bonus no matter what life is at that point. What I'm saying is we can't make a face when people think investing to have a pile of a million bucks is simply a way to show scoreboard and something they don't feel they need to participate in.  

 
Dentist, two data points are:

38 - whatever you have saved for retirement

55 - $2MM (goal)

What I am asking is intermediate estimates, what you expect to have at 40, 45, 50, 55.  ie the 'curve'.  And ideally perhaps a couple data points backward

 
yup, numbers can be changed a million different ways to make the outcome much worse or much better.

We used the preset numbers on firecalc to figure out that he needed ~5m to achieve his goals of spending $120k in todays dollars 17 years from now and having the money last 35 years with a success rate in the 90's.
:yes:    I'm messing around with firecalc now, but can't see where to input current retirement savings.

 
OK so you understand where I am coming from. It's the exception not the rule that people invest and save. I'm sure the numbers are different here vs other types of forums but honestly I bet if there were secret documents of everyone's finances in here that many would be shocked by how little everyone actually puts away compared to the monopoly of educated middle class folks who post in here.

And some people have no intentions of saving and scrimping until they are 65 or 70 in the hopes of spending it little by little until they might reach 95 or 100, I can understand why some folks make a plan til they are 75-80 and figure anything after is just a bonus no matter what life is at that point. What I'm saying is we can't make a face when people think investing to have a pile of a million bucks is simply a way to show scoreboard and something they don't feel they need to participate in.  
i was just laughing at how high a # you threw out there when most people aren't close to that.  as long as we have ss to give people a minimal retirement so they don't have to get bailed out by our tax dollars, people can do whatever they want.  save a bunch  now.  spend a bunch now.  it don't matter one bit to me.

 

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