Personal Finance Advice and Education! (4 Viewers)

[Dentist]

Checking in, still terrible with money. That is all.

Thanks for supporting the economy, you're helping my stock investments in a tiny way. If everyone lived frugally all of a sudden there would be a recession that would make 2008 look mild by comparison

 

[hooter311]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

 

[Tiger Fan]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

When you say your guaranteed accumulation is 3.9%, does that mean you're guaranteed to make 3.9%? What is the risk involved here?

 

[eoMMan]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Is anyone able to actually answer the original question of "how high would the interest rate have to be from another source for you to consider using your 403b for a car loan. Mind you the 403b loan is technically interest free since any interest paid goes directly back into the 403b account?"

4%??

7%??

10%???

Never. I would pay cash for a lesser car before I took a loan from retirement funds.

 

[eoMMan]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

I know you have all types of stuff going on there but $400/month is pretty insane.

Imo, you would be better off buying a good term policy with a small part of the $400 (you could get $1 million coverage for less than $100/month) and then just invest the remaining money you pay each month. That would build up quickly.

 

[Steve Tasker]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Is anyone able to actually answer the original question of "how high would the interest rate have to be from another source for you to consider using your 403b for a car loan. Mind you the 403b loan is technically interest free since any interest paid goes directly back into the 403b account?"

4%??

7%??

10%???

Never. I would pay cash for a lesser car before I took a loan from retirement funds.

This is what I was trying to say re: my personal preference.

 

[Grahamburn]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

When you say your guaranteed accumulation is 3.9%, does that mean you're guaranteed to make 3.9%? What is the risk involved here?

The risk is he can't use his own money if he needs to without paying interest to the company who sold him the policy.

 

[ghostguy123]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Is anyone able to actually answer the original question of "how high would the interest rate have to be from another source for you to consider using your 403b for a car loan. Mind you the 403b loan is technically interest free since any interest paid goes directly back into the 403b account?"

4%??

7%??

10%???

Never. I would pay cash for a lesser car before I took a loan from retirement funds.

This is what I was trying to say re: my personal preference.

This is what i have done. I havent had a car payment in a decade.

 

[matttyl]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

I know you have all types of stuff going on there but $400/month is pretty insane.

Imo, you would be better off buying a good term policy with a small part of the $400 (you could get $1 million coverage for less than $100/month) and then just invest the remaining money you pay each month. That would build up quickly.

He was 29 when he bought the policy. A 20 year term would only cover him to age 49. What if he needs coverage at 50? What if he's no longer insurable at age 50 due to some medical condition? These can be amazing vehicles if used properly (especially if both a husband and wife has one).

 

[matttyl]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

When you say your guaranteed accumulation is 3.9%, does that mean you're guaranteed to make 3.9%? What is the risk involved here?

The risk is he can't use his own money if he needs to without paying interest to the company who sold him the policy.

False, you're not required to pay back any loan if you don't want to. The loan will of course accumulate with interest, but the policy could be growing faster than the interest on the loan.

 

[hooter311]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

I know you have all types of stuff going on there but $400/month is pretty insane.

Imo, you would be better off buying a good term policy with a small part of the $400 (you could get $1 million coverage for less than $100/month) and then just invest the remaining money you pay each month. That would build up quickly.

Yeah but I'm getting double taxed on that money that way. This way when I withdraw it as a loan it isn't taxable and when my kids get the life insurance they won't get taxed on that either. I have LTC coverage in place so Medicaid can't ever drain it all away either.

The thing they don't tell you about Term life insurance is that less than 2% of it ever pays out, and if something comes up where you lose your insurability due to any number of things I can plug more money in there to raise my death benefit.

I sell both products with a variety of companies, people always come in and ask for Term based on Susie Orman's advice, and its great to protect your family up through the kid's college years. But I'm looking more for a dynasty type product to pass wealth down.

Year 1 my $4800 in premium put $2800 so my actual cost of insurance is $167 a month

Year 5 my $24000 in premium is guaranteed at $20,168 cash value so that would put my cost of insurance $63.87 for a $250,000 DB

Year 20 I will have $96,000 in premium, $110,700 guaranteed cash, and $457,000 death benefit so I am free rolling at that point. And the CV is guaranteed to raise at 3.9% from there.

Obviously I don't need the liquidity for a while, but will be easily accessible if I do. Product doesn't work for everybody, but if you have the extra room in your budget it can be a tremendous way to build wealth.

Disclaimer: I've been selling these products for 9 years, so I do have some bias from the insurance side of things. There is only one company in country I am comfortable setting it up this way. They haven't missed a dividend in 100+ years and that's what I have been plugging back in to raise the death benefit.

 

[hooter311]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

When you say your guaranteed accumulation is 3.9%, does that mean you're guaranteed to make 3.9%? What is the risk involved here?

The risk is he can't use his own money if he needs to without paying interest to the company who sold him the policy.

False, you're not required to pay back any loan if you don't want to. The loan will of course accumulate with interest, but the policy could be growing faster than the interest on the loan.

The interest you pay on the loan goes back into your policy. You are the bank, not the insurance company.

 

[hooter311]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

When you say your guaranteed accumulation is 3.9%, does that mean you're guaranteed to make 3.9%? What is the risk involved here?

Yes, the cash value grows at 3.9%. No risk, unless the company goes under. They haven't missed a dividend in 100+ years. They are positioned quite well financially. Virtually zero to me.

 

[hooter311]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

When you say your guaranteed accumulation is 3.9%, does that mean you're guaranteed to make 3.9%? What is the risk involved here?

The risk is he can't use his own money if he needs to without paying interest to the company who sold him the policy.

False, you're not required to pay back any loan if you don't want to. The loan will of course accumulate with interest, but the policy could be growing faster than the interest on the loan.

Once I retire the plan is to stop repaying the loans and just use the cash loans without tax consequence.

 

[matttyl]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

When you say your guaranteed accumulation is 3.9%, does that mean you're guaranteed to make 3.9%? What is the risk involved here?

The risk is he can't use his own money if he needs to without paying interest to the company who sold him the policy.

False, you're not required to pay back any loan if you don't want to. The loan will of course accumulate with interest, but the policy could be growing faster than the interest on the loan.

Once I retire the plan is to stop repaying the loans and just use the cash loans without tax consequence.

Yes, me too. You're good to borrow up to your basis, then you've got to switch things up.

 

[eoMMan]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

This is why I fund a whole life policy with maximum accumulation of cash value. Basically I put in about $400 a month. My son started with a $185,000 dollar untaxed death benefit if something happens to me. After 3 years of funding it I have about $10,800 in cash value built up and the death benefit has increased to $219,000.

The concept is known as infinite banking, basically if I need 10k or less for anything I would pull it out as a loan from my policy and pay myself back at current interest rates instead of the bank. By the time I'm 50 i'll have a guaranteed cash value of $134,000 and guaranteed dead benefit of $425,000. If I owe on any loans when I die they just take it out of the death benefit.

This concept is exactly how the rich get richer and in another 10 years I won't have to fill out a loan application again in my life. I also have the option of overfunding up to $10k each year if I want to build the cash faster.

At age 75 I'll have 379k guaranteed cash value and 565k death benefit. I can either use the money in retirement as a loan and not have to pay taxes on it and then my heirs can get the difference untaxable as well.

Dentist, have you ever considered something like this to set up payment plans for your valued customers that you can personally finance and then collect the interest yourself?

ETA: I bought the policy when I was 29. Into year 3 right now.

ETA: My guaranteed accumulation is right at 3.9+%. Good luck finding that anywhere else, especially with the ability to plug more in. PM me for details on the company I used.

I know you have all types of stuff going on there but $400/month is pretty insane.Imo, you would be better off buying a good term policy with a small part of the $400 (you could get $1 million coverage for less than $100/month) and then just invest the remaining money you pay each month. That would build up quickly.

He was 29 when he bought the policy. A 20 year term would only cover him to age 49. What if he needs coverage at 50? What if he's no longer insurable at age 50 due to some medical condition? These can be amazing vehicles if used properly (especially if both a husband and wife has one).

Do you sell these too for a living?

If he needs more coverage at 50, then he can buy more term life insurance. Assuming he's in decent shape, it will still be relatively cheap.

 

[matttyl]

He was 29 when he bought the policy. A 20 year term would only cover him to age 49. What if he needs coverage at 50? What if he's no longer insurable at age 50 due to some medical condition? These can be amazing vehicles if used properly (especially if both a husband and wife has one).

Do you sell these too for a living?

If he needs more coverage at 50, then he can buy more term life insurance. Assuming he's in decent shape, it will still be relatively cheap.

Yes, I do. And you're making a pretty decent assumption there.

A new 20 year term for a healthy 50 year old for the 425k that his policy has grown to would be about $100 a month - and you still wouldn't be building up any equity. Live to 71, and you don't have any coverage or equity in the policy - you've spent 24k in premiums and received nothing back in return (other than piece of mind for 20 years).

Just saying when you combine the very limited risk, tax benefits, guaranteed growth, flexibility, and other benefits of these products, they are very tough to beat. They shouldn't, though, be your only vehicle to do everything. In place of a safe, liquid fund (a bond portfolio), they really are tough to beat.

Case in point - the first policy I ever sold when I got in the business. The one I sold myself. Exactly $100 a month in premium (policies can be purchased based on premium or death benefit). So 1,200 a year. That was 12 years ago (2003). It immediately purchased ~164k of death benefit (which in all honestly, I didn't really need at the time as I was a bachelor). I viewed it as a forced savings account. When I bought my first home, a fixer-upper in 2008 I think, a contacted the carrier and asked that premiums be stopped. I simply borrowed that $100 a month out of the cash value of the policy. I didn't pay any premiums for the ~5 years I lived in the house, and accumulated a bit of a loan (roughly $7k I think). I then sold the house, making a profit, and repaid the entire loan to the policy. That was far easier and flexible than doing any loan with the bank. To date I've paid just over 12 years of premium of $100 a month (14,400 total). I already have more cash value than that and have had coverage of about 170k the whole time. A year ago I had ~12,800 of cash value, today is over 14,600 (so it grew by 1,800 and I only funded 1,200 into it). If I wanted to tap into the cash, the current interest rate is 3.93%.

Since then I've purchased another, and my wife has a policy as well. When we reach 65, we'll both have a sizable cash value that we can dip into tax free (unless tax law changes). Our thoughts are to spend down all other retirement accounts from ~65 to ~80ish. Should either of us pass during that time, the surviving spouse will be "made whole" via the death benefit. Should we both make it to age ~80, and we've spent down our retirement accounts during the previous 15 years, (at current projections) we'll have over $1m in cash value in our policies, and can live off the income that they generate. We can spend everything else we have, and still leave a tax-free inheritance to kids/grandkids when we inevitably do pass via the death benefit of the policies.

 

[eoMMan]

Okay, you sell it too.

Not going to #### on your product, man. I just encourage people to do their own research.

Next topic....

 

[Grahamburn]

From what I've read, whole life policies are really only good for the guys selling them and the super wealthy.

 

[hooter311]

Yeah, that is pretty much exactly what I am doing with my planning. I want to accumulate property in this life and hand down a dynasty with as little tax consequence as possible. If I kick the bucket early its like winning the lottery for my kid.

The biggest thing with life insurance is to get past the 2 year contestibility period. If you keep re-uping term products and something happens to you in that first two years they are going to go through your life with a fine tooth comb to look for a reason not to pay it.

I was underwritten for $14800 in annual premium when I applied even though I only have to put in 4800 a year. I have a two year own occ disability rider where if I can't preform my job the company will plug in the full $14800 in premium after 2 years of being disabled. This protects a whole other worst case scenario for my life and putting my family in even better shape. I don't what my last thought in this life to be "Did I #### them?", on the other hand "cha-ching" wouldn't be that bad.

 

[hooter311]

From what I've read, whole life policies are really only good for the guys selling them and the super wealthy.

You don't need to be super wealthy. I bought mine when I was pulling roughly 50k with child support payments.

I sell them too just for full disclosure, but I'm just trying to introduce another option, its not like I'm going to be driving around to FBG's writing it. I have my own clients already.

 

[Sand]

Next topic....

We can talk about how when there is blood in the water it's a good time to buy stuff?

Lots of blood in the water today (and likely all week). Personally looking at items like NLY, KMI, CVX, XOM, O.

 

[Todem]

Next topic....

We can talk about how when there is blood in the water it's a good time to buy stuff?

Lots of blood in the water today (and likely all week).

Let it bleed some more. We are overdue for a 7-10% pull back. Not even close to that yet from the Dow high of 18,351

 

[matttyl]

Okay, you sell it too.

Not going to #### on your product, man. I just encourage people to do their own research.

Next topic....

I can also help folks with IRAs, 401ks, 529s, other insurance, annuities - lots of different things. They aren't for everyone, but they can work very well for people depending on their needs.

Anyway, where's the smart money being invested these days?

 

[Todem]

Okay, you sell it too.

Not going to #### on your product, man. I just encourage people to do their own research.

Next topic....

I can also help folks with IRAs, 401ks, 529s, other insurance, annuities - lots of different things. They aren't for everyone, but they can work very well for people depending on their needs.

Anyway, where's the smart money being invested these days?

Energy Stocks. High quality European large cap stocks.

 

[Sand]

Next topic....

We can talk about how when there is blood in the water it's a good time to buy stuff?

Lots of blood in the water today (and likely all week).

Let it bleed some more. We are overdue for a 7-10% pull back. Not even close to that yet from the Dow high of 18,351

I don't try to predict these things, but if something really tanks for no good reason (SCTY geting smoked today, for instance) I take notice.

Only thing I think is a given is that the VIX will spike for the next little while.

 

[Sand]

Okay, you sell it too.

Not going to #### on your product, man. I just encourage people to do their own research.

Next topic....

I can also help folks with IRAs, 401ks, 529s, other insurance, annuities - lots of different things. They aren't for everyone, but they can work very well for people depending on their needs.

Anyway, where's the smart money being invested these days?

US Dollar, Swiss Franc.

 

[FUBAR]

Yeah, that is pretty much exactly what I am doing with my planning. I want to accumulate property in this life and hand down a dynasty with as little tax consequence as possible. If I kick the bucket early its like winning the lottery for my kid.

The biggest thing with life insurance is to get past the 2 year contestibility period. If you keep re-uping term products and something happens to you in that first two years they are going to go through your life with a fine tooth comb to look for a reason not to pay it.

I was underwritten for $14800 in annual premium when I applied even though I only have to put in 4800 a year. I have a two year own occ disability rider where if I can't preform my job the company will plug in the full $14800 in premium after 2 years of being disabled. This protects a whole other worst case scenario for my life and putting my family in even better shape. I don't what my last thought in this life to be "Did I #### them?", on the other hand "cha-ching" wouldn't be that bad.

I realize this is getting a little off topic but it's interesting.

If you get term and invest the rest, roughly 300/month over 20 years, that's at least $72,000 if the market never went up.

Or $140k if I earn 6% annually. Granted the term insurance becomes worthless, but I have the investments. I just don't understand why whole life could be better.

 

[Todem]

Next topic....

We can talk about how when there is blood in the water it's a good time to buy stuff?

Lots of blood in the water today (and likely all week).

Let it bleed some more. We are overdue for a 7-10% pull back. Not even close to that yet from the Dow high of 18,351

I don't try to predict these things, but if something really tanks for no good reason (SCTY geting smoked today, for instance) I take notice.

Only thing I think is a given is that the VIX will spike for the next little while.

Neither do I. But after investing since 1987....you get a good feel for things. We were due for a small sell-off. Holiday weekend, people want to lighten up.

This is a non event in the big picture. But short term irrational behavior = long term opportunity......100% all of the time in my experience.

 

[wilked]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Is anyone able to actually answer the original question of "how high would the interest rate have to be from another source for you to consider using your 403b for a car loan. Mind you the 403b loan is technically interest free since any interest paid goes directly back into the 403b account?"

4%??

7%??

10%???

Never. I would pay cash for a lesser car before I took a loan from retirement funds.

this one

I am a bit more extreme, in that I believe that at a certain age (30?) you shouldn't be taking a car loan at all. Buy a used car up to the amount you have saved

 

[Todem]

Yeah, that is pretty much exactly what I am doing with my planning. I want to accumulate property in this life and hand down a dynasty with as little tax consequence as possible. If I kick the bucket early its like winning the lottery for my kid.

The biggest thing with life insurance is to get past the 2 year contestibility period. If you keep re-uping term products and something happens to you in that first two years they are going to go through your life with a fine tooth comb to look for a reason not to pay it.

I was underwritten for $14800 in annual premium when I applied even though I only have to put in 4800 a year. I have a two year own occ disability rider where if I can't preform my job the company will plug in the full $14800 in premium after 2 years of being disabled. This protects a whole other worst case scenario for my life and putting my family in even better shape. I don't what my last thought in this life to be "Did I #### them?", on the other hand "cha-ching" wouldn't be that bad.

I realize this is getting a little off topic but it's interesting.

If you get term and invest the rest, roughly 300/month over 20 years, that's at least $72,000 if the market never went up.

Or $140k if I earn 6% annually. Granted the term insurance becomes worthless, but I have the investments. I just don't understand why whole life could be better.

I only sell Universal life to those in the highest tax bracket that have more money to invest, want guarantees and tax free income streams in retirement and also need life insurance for estate reasons long term.

Short term....if it is just income replacement. Term insurance is the way to go.

But if your amassing a large estate a second to die policy is a smart thing, or if your also looking for a way to stash away more money after you max out your 401K, SEP, whatever. A universal Life can be a nice way to stash funds, get guarantees and then take tax free withdrawals from.

If your not making 200K plus at a minimum and having plenty left over to save......I don't even bother showing Universal Life policies. But Life Insurance guys think the world revolves around life insurance. LOL.

Now what I do show to a lot of people 45 and over are Universal Life Policies with LTC (long term care) riders attached. That is an entirely different conversation.

 

[Sand]

What is your personal interest rate cutoff point where you would consider taking a loan from your 403b or 401k to buy a car?

For my 403b I have to pay interest, but I pay it to myself right back into my account.

I looked up a $20,000 loan and all the total fees are somewhere around like $150-200 total for a 5 year repayment, with obviously no actual interest being paid to anyone else.

So when you are taking out a loan for a car, what rate cutoff point would make you consider this?

(oh, and no need to reference all that we talked about before, my money is back in the S&P. If I had planned to just keep that money in the money market, it would be a no brainer to take the loan from the 403b)

I am leaning towards doing the 403b loan at the moment. Not like it's a huge amount of money anyway, plus it can just be viewed as a diversification of assetts I suppose.

Good article here about what happens when you take a loan from a 401k or similar vehicle. In essence you're giving up a big opportunity cost and double taxing yourself when paying it back. How much penalty depends on what the markets do, but given that the market goes up 70% of the time... Direct advice from the article on when to take a loan like this "Smith’s list of acceptable reasons to take a 401k loan is short: to pay back taxes or other money owed to the IRS, to pay a tax lien, or to try to avoid bankruptcy."

A car loan is nowhere close to being justified here. (Also, it blows my mind that fully 1 in 4 401ks have outstanding loans against them.)

 

[Dentist]

this one

I am a bit more extreme, in that I believe that at a certain age (30?) you shouldn't be taking a car loan at all. Buy a used car up to the amount you have saved

This, I completely agree.. pretty extreme and 90% won't do that, but 90% also aren't going to retire on their terms in style either.

 

[Todem]

What is your personal interest rate cutoff point where you would consider taking a loan from your 403b or 401k to buy a car?

For my 403b I have to pay interest, but I pay it to myself right back into my account.

I looked up a $20,000 loan and all the total fees are somewhere around like $150-200 total for a 5 year repayment, with obviously no actual interest being paid to anyone else.

So when you are taking out a loan for a car, what rate cutoff point would make you consider this?

(oh, and no need to reference all that we talked about before, my money is back in the S&P. If I had planned to just keep that money in the money market, it would be a no brainer to take the loan from the 403b)

I am leaning towards doing the 403b loan at the moment. Not like it's a huge amount of money anyway, plus it can just be viewed as a diversification of assetts I suppose.

Good article here about what happens when you take a loan from a 401k or similar vehicle. In essence you're giving up a big opportunity cost and double taxing yourself when paying it back. How much penalty depends on what the markets do, but given that the market goes up 70% of the time... Direct advice from the article on when to take a loan like this "Smith’s list of acceptable reasons to take a 401k loan is short: to pay back taxes or other money owed to the IRS, to pay a tax lien, or to try to avoid bankruptcy."

A car loan is nowhere close to being justified here. (Also, it blows my mind that fully 1 in 4 401ks have outstanding loans against them.)

Worst loan ever....other than a payday advance (god they prey on people down in the dumps don't they?).

Never understood why someone would borrow from their 401K unless it was absolutely the last resort and their life depended on it. Otherwise file for bankruptcy.

 

[matttyl]

Yeah, that is pretty much exactly what I am doing with my planning. I want to accumulate property in this life and hand down a dynasty with as little tax consequence as possible. If I kick the bucket early its like winning the lottery for my kid.

The biggest thing with life insurance is to get past the 2 year contestibility period. If you keep re-uping term products and something happens to you in that first two years they are going to go through your life with a fine tooth comb to look for a reason not to pay it.

I was underwritten for $14800 in annual premium when I applied even though I only have to put in 4800 a year. I have a two year own occ disability rider where if I can't preform my job the company will plug in the full $14800 in premium after 2 years of being disabled. This protects a whole other worst case scenario for my life and putting my family in even better shape. I don't what my last thought in this life to be "Did I #### them?", on the other hand "cha-ching" wouldn't be that bad.

I realize this is getting a little off topic but it's interesting.

If you get term and invest the rest, roughly 300/month over 20 years, that's at least $72,000 if the market never went up.

Or $140k if I earn 6% annually. Granted the term insurance becomes worthless, but I have the investments. I just don't understand why whole life could be better.

Lots of moving pieces here. Will you have any insurance need when the term expires? I do a whole lot of analysis with "buy term and invest the difference". You have to look into taxes, risk , rates of return in the market (6% net after tax is maybe a bit high). What if your investments have a down year in the 19th year? Whole life shouldn't be your only vehicle, but it can be a very nice one if used properly.

EDIT TO ADD - so I just ran a really quick illustration with 400 a month of premium on a healthy 35 year old male (obviously different ages will have different results). In 20 years (age 55), the policy will have ~135,800 of cash surrender value. Not too far off of your 140k number. Also, this policy is "paid up" after 20 years meaning you don't have to fund it anymore. In year 21 the cash would be ~144,500, meaning it grew by 8,700 (6.4%) and you weren't taxed on it. Not bad. Again, just an example and everyone would be different.

 

[matttyl]

Now what I do show to a lot of people 45 and over are Universal Life Policies with LTC (long term care) riders attached. That is an entirely different conversation.

Yes, those are gaining a lot of popularity. I do some whole life with the LTC rider. Covers you if you die (death benefit), if you get really sick (LTC), or if you want cash (cash surrender value). It will do any one of those things very well at any time. It can do 2 of those pretty decently. It won't do all 3 - so know what you're getting into.

 

[Todem]

Now what I do show to a lot of people 45 and over are Universal Life Policies with LTC (long term care) riders attached. That is an entirely different conversation.

Yes, those are gaining a lot of popularity. I do some whole life with the LTC rider. Covers you if you die (death benefit), if you get really sick (LTC), or if you want cash (cash surrender value). It will do any one of those things very well at any time. It can do 2 of those pretty decently. It won't do all 3 - so know what you're getting into.

Exactly. It is a pure leverage instrument. The internal rates of return needed for the LTC benefit are amazing. Nothing on this planet can guarantee you those values if you put your money elsewhere. I have sold more UV's with LTC than any other insurance product the last 2 years. I also do a lot of Variable Annuity business for clients seeking to create another "pension" like income stream with guarantees....I never ever put more than 30% of persons net worth into a Variable Annuity. And they are not suitable for people with under a 350-400K liquid net worth to begin with. They are expensive and not liquid without penalties.

Another product that has been mis-sold by the scoundrels in our industry and given them a bad rep. Yet they can be pretty awesome these days. I can't tell you how many of my clients are very happy with the annuities they have. Because they understand their purpose and role in their overall financial plan.

 

[ghostguy123]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Is anyone able to actually answer the original question of "how high would the interest rate have to be from another source for you to consider using your 403b for a car loan. Mind you the 403b loan is technically interest free since any interest paid goes directly back into the 403b account?"

4%??

7%??

10%???

Never. I would pay cash for a lesser car before I took a loan from retirement funds.

this oneI am a bit more extreme, in that I believe that at a certain age (30?) you shouldn't be taking a car loan at all. Buy a used car up to the amount you have saved

I can buy a new car with my savings. I just dont want to deplete my savings.

For the last 10 years I have only bought very inexpensive used cars, the corolla/civic/rav4 types. The most I have paid for a car is about $3,000. In fact on a few occasions I would buy a car for a good price, drive it for a year or more, then sell it for the same or more than I paid originally. I really really hate investing much money into cars at all.

But with the a baby on the way I wanted to get something either new or newer, and didn't want to deplete that savings. I was just bringing up the 403b loan because I have no idea what kind of interest rate I can get. From the sounds of it interest rates for car loans are very reasonable with any sort of decent credit, which I have. If that is the case, then yeah, 403b loan wouldnt even be considered.

 

[Dentist]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Is anyone able to actually answer the original question of "how high would the interest rate have to be from another source for you to consider using your 403b for a car loan. Mind you the 403b loan is technically interest free since any interest paid goes directly back into the 403b account?"

4%??

7%??

10%???

Never. I would pay cash for a lesser car before I took a loan from retirement funds.

this oneI am a bit more extreme, in that I believe that at a certain age (30?) you shouldn't be taking a car loan at all. Buy a used car up to the amount you have saved

I can buy a new car with my savings. I just dont want to deplete my savings

maybe just get a cheaper car? how about that

 

[wilked]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Is anyone able to actually answer the original question of "how high would the interest rate have to be from another source for you to consider using your 403b for a car loan. Mind you the 403b loan is technically interest free since any interest paid goes directly back into the 403b account?"

4%??

7%??

10%???

Never. I would pay cash for a lesser car before I took a loan from retirement funds.

this oneI am a bit more extreme, in that I believe that at a certain age (30?) you shouldn't be taking a car loan at all. Buy a used car up to the amount you have saved

I can buy a new car with my savings. I just dont want to deplete my savings.

For the last 10 years I have only bought very inexpensive used cars, the corolla/civic/rav4 types. The most I have paid for a car is about $3,000. In fact on a few occasions I would buy a car for a good price, drive it for a year or more, then sell it for the same or more than I paid originally. I really really hate investing much money into cars at all.

But with the a baby on the way I wanted to get something either new or newer, and didn't want to deplete that savings. I was just bringing up the 403b loan because I have no idea what kind of interest rate I can get. From the sounds of it interest rates for car loans are very reasonable with any sort of decent credit, which I have. If that is the case, then yeah, 403b loan wouldnt even be considered.

Might has well put your next TV on layaway, so the savings account is not affected...

 

[fourd]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Is anyone able to actually answer the original question of "how high would the interest rate have to be from another source for you to consider using your 403b for a car loan. Mind you the 403b loan is technically interest free since any interest paid goes directly back into the 403b account?"

4%??

7%??

10%???

Never. I would pay cash for a lesser car before I took a loan from retirement funds.

this oneI am a bit more extreme, in that I believe that at a certain age (30?) you shouldn't be taking a car loan at all. Buy a used car up to the amount you have saved

I can buy a new car with my savings. I just dont want to deplete my savings.

For the last 10 years I have only bought very inexpensive used cars, the corolla/civic/rav4 types. The most I have paid for a car is about $3,000. In fact on a few occasions I would buy a car for a good price, drive it for a year or more, then sell it for the same or more than I paid originally. I really really hate investing much money into cars at all.

But with the a baby on the way I wanted to get something either new or newer, and didn't want to deplete that savings. I was just bringing up the 403b loan because I have no idea what kind of interest rate I can get. From the sounds of it interest rates for car loans are very reasonable with any sort of decent credit, which I have. If that is the case, then yeah, 403b loan wouldnt even be considered.

Is it a savings account or your emergency fund? What's it earning?

 

[wilked]

Since there is insurance talk, I will offer my advice:

98% of the people should buy term and should not consider other life insurance. Term fits the need of this 98%, which is to replace your income upon death and provide for your family. Life insurance should not be used by most as a retirement vehicle - use your retirement accounts (401k, Roth IRA, taxable investments) for retirement savings, especially being mindful to capture those tax-advantages.

Here's why - term is efficiently priced and easy to shop. No mumbo jumbo, just a simple product easy to understand and difficult for insurance salesman / financial advisors / etc to disguise and overprice. If you die, the insurance company cuts your beneficiary a tax-free check for the amount you bought, and all you need to do is pay your premium each year. Simple.

Things like Whole Life, Universal, etc are very complicated and as such are not easily 'shopped', and as a result are not nearly as efficient in pricing.

Do you want insurance to provide for your family in the case of your death? That is what term life does. As a rule, buy it for a duration to where the house is paid off and the kids are out of college at a minimum. You likely don't need it beyond that, but that depends a bit upon your spouse and age.

 

[FUBAR]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Is anyone able to actually answer the original question of "how high would the interest rate have to be from another source for you to consider using your 403b for a car loan. Mind you the 403b loan is technically interest free since any interest paid goes directly back into the 403b account?"

4%??

7%??

10%???

Never. I would pay cash for a lesser car before I took a loan from retirement funds.

this oneI am a bit more extreme, in that I believe that at a certain age (30?) you shouldn't be taking a car loan at all. Buy a used car up to the amount you have saved

I can buy a new car with my savings. I just dont want to deplete my savings.

For the last 10 years I have only bought very inexpensive used cars, the corolla/civic/rav4 types. The most I have paid for a car is about $3,000. In fact on a few occasions I would buy a car for a good price, drive it for a year or more, then sell it for the same or more than I paid originally. I really really hate investing much money into cars at all.

But with the a baby on the way I wanted to get something either new or newer, and didn't want to deplete that savings. I was just bringing up the 403b loan because I have no idea what kind of interest rate I can get. From the sounds of it interest rates for car loans are very reasonable with any sort of decent credit, which I have. If that is the case, then yeah, 403b loan wouldnt even be considered.

Is it a savings account or your emergency fund? What's it earning?

Isn't the purpose of savings, to use to but things you want/need?

Sure keep the right amount for emergencies.

but I really don't see the point of going into debt unless needed. But then again, I did the same thing 4 years ago - took a loan on a new mini van the wife wanted, despite having enough in a non tax benefited investment account. But I paid it off last year just for the emotional benefit.

 

[ghostguy123]

Man, everyone really really loves to take everything to extremes don't they?

Dentist, I am actively looking for a decent used car that I don't have to pay a ton for. Just like I have basically done my entire adult life. In this case, I likely need something better than what I have always driven with a BABY on the way. I am very likely not buying a new car, probably something used in the 8-10 grand range, possibly another Rav4.

Wilked, rather extreme there. I haven't had a speck of debt in like 9 years.

As for emergency fund, how much exactly should I have in an emergency fund? Coulda sworn I read somewhere like maybe 6 months worth of living expenses. So, I suppose I would be depleting my emergency fund to buy a new car with what I have saved.

Anyway, this started with me asking how high of an interest rate a car loan would need to be for you to consider a 403b loan, this with the assumption that the purchase would be made one way or the other (which is NOT a certainty, was for discussion). Turns out it won't matter because interest rates for car loans arent that high, which I didnt know because I havent taken a car loan in over a decade. So, never mind. I am not going on welfare over here, jesus.

However, can you get a good rate on a car loan for a used car from a private party. That is the new research topic for me for the day.

 

[rick6668]

Credit unions are good for car loans. I'd explore those options before loaning against retirement funds.

Agreed, agreed, agreed.

Is anyone able to actually answer the original question of "how high would the interest rate have to be from another source for you to consider using your 403b for a car loan. Mind you the 403b loan is technically interest free since any interest paid goes directly back into the 403b account?"

4%??

7%??

10%???

Never. I would pay cash for a lesser car before I took a loan from retirement funds.

this oneI am a bit more extreme, in that I believe that at a certain age (30?) you shouldn't be taking a car loan at all. Buy a used car up to the amount you have saved

I can buy a new car with my savings. I just dont want to deplete my savings.

For the last 10 years I have only bought very inexpensive used cars, the corolla/civic/rav4 types. The most I have paid for a car is about $3,000. In fact on a few occasions I would buy a car for a good price, drive it for a year or more, then sell it for the same or more than I paid originally. I really really hate investing much money into cars at all.

But with the a baby on the way I wanted to get something either new or newer, and didn't want to deplete that savings. I was just bringing up the 403b loan because I have no idea what kind of interest rate I can get. From the sounds of it interest rates for car loans are very reasonable with any sort of decent credit, which I have. If that is the case, then yeah, 403b loan wouldnt even be considered.

I started a thread a few weeks ago regarding depleting a good chunk my savings.

https://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index.php?/topic/727937-need-a-new-to-me-used-car-financing-questions/

I ended up with a loan from lightstream at 1.99%. This was very simple and quick. This was an unsecured loan. (I believe they only give these to people with great credit.)

Picked up my car today, couldn't be happier. BTW, I would never pull money from my 401K etc for a car loan, but that's just me.

I can take the 3 years to pay or pay early with no fees etc if I want.

 

[Juxtatarot]

As for emergency fund, how much exactly should I have in an emergency fund? Coulda sworn I read somewhere like maybe 6 months worth of living expenses. So, I suppose I would be depleting my emergency fund to buy a new car with what I have saved.

Getting a low interest rate car loan is the right way for you to go, in my opinion.

 

[FUBAR]

Noone said you were gg. But around here, one question will get many answers.

For the emergency fund, that all depends on your security. I keep 6-10k which is about 2 months of expenses, but I'm not at risk of losing my job without committing a felony).

 

[ghostguy123]

As for emergency fund, how much exactly should I have in an emergency fund? Coulda sworn I read somewhere like maybe 6 months worth of living expenses. So, I suppose I would be depleting my emergency fund to buy a new car with what I have saved.

Getting a low interest rate car loan is the right way for you to go, in my opinion.

This is the most likely scenario, ideally I can find a low rate approved for a used car from a private seller.

Now if my options were buying a car for 10 grand from a private seller or buying that same exact car from a dealership for 12 or 13 grand and taking a loan, I will just pay the 10 grand.

I hate everything about the idea of buying a car from a dealership.

 

[KCitons]

Riding the bus doesn't require a loan or depleting your savings.

 

[ghostguy123]

No bus where i live. Wish there was.