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Uhhh I think you're responding a bit too emotionally & quickly. I wasn't at all sneakily shifting focus from Manning to something else. The point of my argument is that your requirements of being considered "great" are flawed, and you're applying that flawed reasoning to your assessment of Manning.
Manning Defense = Shift topic to other players.At what point will you show me how Peyton Manning plays better in the playoffs than he does in the regular season?Does he win more games in the playoffs? Does he have a better TD/INT ratio? Is his QB Rating higher? Give me something Peyton Manning is responsible for that supports your position. You guys freaking kill me. Manning is a great QB because he has great regular season stats. He does this not because his team is great, but because he alone is great. Then when the stats turn to crap in the playoffs, all of a sudden its the teams' fault. Classic.
Good comments about HK's overlooking the "turds" BassnBrew
HK, do you really believe what you just wrote is valid? I assume you are just trying to prove your point so you will only slant things to prove that point.
Just a comment here...Barry did try and make more of many runs because he could, but if there was a hole he would run through it. The reason you get many negative carries is because the defense is in the freakin' backfield. You didn't see Barry take a 1 or 2 yard gain and make it lose 5 yards very often. His OL was terrible as as his team and THIS is why he didn't win. When you say his style is not conducive to winning is just
HK, you are hopeless. Please go ahead and live in your delusional world, but you are not going to bring me into this waste of time. I will not debate with people who don't even try and seek the truth; they are only interested in hearing themselves speak and that is not productive.peace out!
Manning defense = shift focus to other players.Brady capitalized on his second chance and won the game for his team.
The Greatest RB of All Time was pulled at the goal line because...let me guess, the coach was stupid?Just a comment here...Barry did try and make more of many runs because he could, but if there was a hole he would run through it. The reason you get many negative carries is because the defense is in the freakin' backfield. You didn't see Barry take a 1 or 2 yard gain and make it lose 5 yards very often. His OL was terrible as as his team and THIS is why he didn't win. When you say his style is not conducive to winning is just
Exactly what I expected, you can not respond to the obvious fact that Manning in the playoffs is not as good as Manning in the regular season. There is no argument to support that position.However, the statistics support me, therefore his supporters seek other areas to try and cover up that fact.IMO Manning has played on teams that have been good enough to win it. This year's team is definitely good enough, and they are in a perfect position to finally win it all. Personnally, I hope they do. I would love to see Manning & Harrison get a ring. I think Freeney & Sanders are fantastic. IMO it would be huge deal for Dungy & AV, too.Just because I keep the focus of discussion regarding Peyton Manning's success and failures on Peyton Manning only seems ignorant to you because you have no other defense. You can not support your argument on Manning alone.Is it a team game? Absolutely. I have shown that the team has played well enough to win, and Manning has not, so the team has lost.Lets see if Manning can meet the challenge and get it done. I'm rooting for him.
Of course. I think anyone who watched the game would say that Brady was having a bad game until the end of the first half, and that the Patriots won both in spite of his three interceptions, and because of his game tying and game winning drives with six minutes left in the fourth quarter. I don't think anyone who watched either of the Colts' games this offseason has said that they're winning because of Manning. Even Manning has said that the defense has been carrying the offense in the playoffs.
Bfred, the defense played great both games and deserves almost all teh credit in this weeks game and some of teh credit in the KC game. Manning played well in the KC game as he was extremely sharp with one or 2 execptions. One of the picks was his afult and I think both teh other two were harrison's fault judging by looking at the game tape. Manning threw to teh open spot and Harrison continued to run to a spot directl;y behind the defensemen in teh zone. When The "experts" analzyed the film they confirmed my opinoin and said the routes were run incorrectly. Seriioucly, Manning was really sharo in teh KC game. But he should have been agaionst them. Manning was bad against Baltimore, yes he mades some good plays, but when he was under pressure he really looked like a rookie.The only part I agree with HK on is that Thinsg are aligned for Manning this year and if his defense continues to play at this high level, Manning better get it done.
I think it's a tad disingenuous to give Brady credit for a game tying drive where he threw a 4th down interception. It would be like giving Manning credit if that guy hadn't run straight at Roethlisberger last year.Whatever we think of Manning, Brady played like crap yesterday. He threw 51 times for well less than 6 yds/attempt and 3 picks. This despite not being pressured all that much. He gets credit for one bigtime throw to Caldwell with the chips down, but Manning gets the same for threading the needle to Dallas Clark.
IMO the drive Brady led the team on prior to halftime is being way overlooked. It kept the score close and gave them momentum at the break. Did Brady put the Pats in a hole? Yep. He also helped dig them out of it.
I've already said he is great...just not in the playoffs....yet.We agree that Manning has a good enough team to win it all this season, and the remaining competition for the Colts is certainly beatable. Good, that's a starting point.If all Manning has to do is not make mistakes and not blow the Colts' chances at winning, and he does that and wins a ring, it will make a difference in my thoughts about him. You know why? Its a hell of a lot harder to do than say. If it were so easy, anybody could do it. If he is a great as you and others think he is, it shouldn't be a problem, either.The only part I agree with HK on is that Thinsg are aligned for Manning this year and if his defense continues to play at this high level, Manning better get it done. Wouldn't be ironic if Manning plays at the mediocre level he has played so far and his defense carries him to his first ring so "all of a sudden" people like HK will say he was great because he has a ring? Yeah, that is a crock of
Your comp with the Dallas Clark throw and the Reche Caldwell throw was spot on.Brady did take advantage of the situation after he blew it and he deserves credit for persevering, but let's not think he played any better than poor.I am a Giant fan and for awhile Eli was the best 4th quarter QB and was leading the team down on winning drives. But part of the reason he was doing this was because he stunk early on. Yes people say "when you need it most" but the truth is that having at some time during the game is what is important because if you would have played well earlier in the game, the game would not have been in doubt.
Against a prevent defense???
I assume you wanted Brady to call a timeout and go to the Chargers' sideline to discuss his strategy with Marty and tell him how to stop the Patriots, just to make it more sporting? 
Throwing a fourth down interception there would have been no different than a fourth down incompletion, so I'm not as critical of it as I would be if it were mid-drive. But I agree that it was bad. On the other hand, they were down by one score at the time, and could still have had a chance to get the game tying TD if the defense stopped the Chargers from getting three first downs. Which is why it's not as bad as Manning's mistakes in that Steelers game. In the Steelers game, Manning threw the potential game losing interception to Polamalu with 5:26 left down by 11. Brady threw the potential game losing interception with 6:25 left down by 8. That alone was a lot differentManning then proceeded to lead them on a scoring drive, which I do give him credit for. The problem is, the next time he got the ball back, he took two sacks and threw the ball away on the third one, giving up the ball on four downs on his own side of the field. By the time "that guy ran straight into Roethlisberger last year", Manning had already led two game losing drives. He ended up getting four drives to get two scores, and got one. Brady had two drives, and converted on both of them. So no, I don't think the two situations are comparable. I agree that Brady didn't have a sharp game. I disagree that he only had one big time throw. The drive before halftime was huge. He was 4/5 for 32 yards and a TD after the interception/fumble. The 49 yarder to Caldwell was enormous, but that was after a 19 yard pass to Graham that got them out from under the shadow of their own goalpost. That was big. Brady also led a critical third quarter drive, down 14-10, driving the ball from his own two yard line to the Chargers' 14. A holding penalty put them at second and 16, and Watson dropped a deep pass, so Brady took the short pass to make it a 34 yard attempt instead of a 42 yarder. Contrast that with Manning, down three, taking two shots at the end zone when he still had time and two timeouts, and leaving Vanderjagt with a season-long field goal attempt when he couldn't convert. So no, I don't agree that the two are exactly comparable. Brady did an interview this morning where he talked about the adjustments the Pats made before the half. He said that their gameplan wasn't working at all in the first half, and gave a lot of credit to San Diego for their gameplan. Up until that point, the Pats had 22 plays - 11 pass, 11 rush. With 1:58 left in the half and down by 11, they then ran a 7 pass, 3 rush, 72 yard drive for a momentum-changing touchdown. In the second half, the Patriots ran the ball 5 times for 2 total yards while Brady passed for 192 yards and a touchdown and led them to two short field goals while throwing two interceptions. Of that, 100 yards, a TD and a field goal came after the interception/fumble. The only rushes on either of those drives were the two point conversion, and at the end of the field goal drive once they got in close field goal range and were trying to run the clock down. For better or worse, Brady was asked to carry the offense on his back, and while he made some big mistakes, he was once again at his best at the end of the game. I agree that Brady did not have a good game. But I also think that there's no way the Patriots win that game without him.scoobygang said:
If it's so easy to throw against a prevent defense, why doesn't every team do it? If it was a prevent defense, why didn't they prevent Gaffney from having 17 and 12 yard receptions, Graham from getting a 19 yarder and Caldwell from getting a 49 yarder?
I considered him great prior to the game, and stated that many times in many threads.The discussion has been centered around him winning a championship to be considered among the greatest of all-time. He has one to go to get a ring. Good luck to him.FWIW, yesterday was the first time I remember him ever coming from behind to lead the Colts to a playoff win in the final two minutes. That is what people have been craving to see from him. It makes everyone forget about his 2 TD's and 6 INT's this post season. That is what winning does. Winning trumps stats. Manning picked himself up after the pick and poured it on. Have you ever seen him play like that with so much on the line? I haven't.If Manning gets a ring, he is teflon. He'll have no achilles heel...but he still needs a ring.Let's hope he gets it
I was thinking that myself. That INT could have been the end of him. Real gut check time - he came through in flying colors yesterday.
Manning was awesome in the second half last night. To date, that was the best 30 minutes of football he has ever played, when you consider what was on the line.
