about half to 3/4 less value than he has now depending on how bush looks. I certainly wouldn't cut him but he is a sell high for sure.Pierre looking great as a power runner and receiver.What's his value when Bush is back?
The storyline is simple: Deuce looks washed up and Thomas is a vastly superior RB. The Saints gave Deuce a gift TD so he could set the team's all-time TD record and that was a nice gesture by Payton. But even though Deuce "started" it was obvious early on that he didn't have anything to offer whereas Thomas ran hard, ran fast and made plays as both a runner and receiver.Didn't get to see the game tonight. What's the storyline on Deuce? Thomas had a ton more carries. Is Deuce banged up or did he just not play much because he missed practice this week? Or is this a performance thing? I'm out of the loop.
Deuce is slowing up. He had more talent than any back on our roster when he was in his prime but life in the NFL is shorter for some backs than others. Deuce having both those knee surgeries has hurt him amd I wonder if he is fully recovered when I see him run. The speed isnt there but the power is. This should be the last week that Reggie Bush isnt the main topic of discussion as far as Saints RB's are concerned but I do think Pierre will get some love as well. Deuce will not beat his suspension so its really pointless to argue his production going forward.Didn't get to see the game tonight. What's the storyline on Deuce? Thomas had a ton more carries. Is Deuce banged up or did he just not play much because he missed practice this week? Or is this a performance thing? I'm out of the loop.
Please don't bring fairness into this thread, we are all about overreactions in here.To be fair the Packers have made a few backs look better than they are recently.
This is true but as I posted earlier Thomas has produced whenever he's gotten the opportunity. So what happened last night wasn't just a case of the Packers making a RB look good. And even if that's the case, Deuce ran against the same defense last night and looked terrible. Here is what Thomas did earlier in the year when paired with Bush:Week 1: 10-52-0/2-11-0Week 2: 6-8-1/2-29-0Week 3: 6-15-2/3-8-0Those aren't gaudy numbers but the two keys are:1. He was getting double-digit touches2. He was scoringFrom a fantasy perspective, he was a solid RB3. In a PPR league, he had RB2 upside because he was involved in the passing game even with Bush healthy.To be fair the Packers have made a few backs look better than they are recently.
It's pretty obvious that Deuce re-injured the knee, or at the very least, tweaked it again. He was running much harder two weeks ago against the Panthers. Just one month ago Deuce averaged 5+ yards a carry in back to back games and looked like the stronger back. Something had to happen.Tirico mentioned that Deuce had his knee drained this week and it was limiting him.
Deuce=Bettis a few years ago. They love him in New Orleans and he has a limited role there.Didn't get to see the game tonight. What's the storyline on Deuce? Thomas had a ton more carries. Is Deuce banged up or did he just not play much because he missed practice this week? Or is this a performance thing? I'm out of the loop.
I agree and hope Deuce will take a restructured contract where he can be paid like the role player he is now. If not I hope he retires a Saint after this year. The guy is a first class person and a warrior to fight back as far as he did from the ACL AND microfracture surgery he had this past offseason. He is my favorite all time Saints player but Drew Brees is catching up pretty quick.Deuce=Bettis a few years ago. They love him in New Orleans and he has a limited role there.Didn't get to see the game tonight. What's the storyline on Deuce? Thomas had a ton more carries. Is Deuce banged up or did he just not play much because he missed practice this week? Or is this a performance thing? I'm out of the loop.
I think this is the key here, Thomas got his chances because Deuce was hurt. I'm not saying it makes sense because he looked pretty good since last year, and he looked good last night. But wasn't he fourth on the depth chart before Stecker got hurt. Is there just something that the staff doesn't like about him?It's pretty obvious that Deuce re-injured the knee, or at the very least, tweaked it again. He was running much harder two weeks ago against the Panthers. Just one month ago Deuce averaged 5+ yards a carry in back to back games and looked like the stronger back. Something had to happen.Tirico mentioned that Deuce had his knee drained this week and it was limiting him.
The Washington and Denver games that we lost were close and PT wasnt running as hard back then and couldn't get the yard needed to sustain the game wining drive so I think he took a back seat for a while because of those poor performances. Clearly he has moved up the depth chart now and especially after last nights performance. Lance Moore was also on the bubble to be cut earlier in the year. times change.I think this is the key here, Thomas got his chances because Deuce was hurt. I'm not saying it makes sense because he looked pretty good since last year, and he looked good last night. But wasn't he fourth on the depth chart before Stecker got hurt. Is there just something that the staff doesn't like about him?It's pretty obvious that Deuce re-injured the knee, or at the very least, tweaked it again. He was running much harder two weeks ago against the Panthers. Just one month ago Deuce averaged 5+ yards a carry in back to back games and looked like the stronger back. Something had to happen.Tirico mentioned that Deuce had his knee drained this week and it was limiting him.
There was a lot of talk about Thomas early in the season and there were stories posted saying the Saints liked him a lot and Deuce probably wouldn't have made the team this year if Stecker hadn't gotten hurt in the preseason. Frankly, I think Payton fell victim to sentiment in terms of playing Deuce as long as he did. Deuce hasn't looked very good all season long in my opinion. His power makes him a decent short-yardage RB but he's run slow and looked sluggish for most of the season. Thomas has looked better all year long in my opinion but I think Payton let sentiment cloud his judgment.I think Thomas has clearly shown again the past two weeks that he is the far superior RB. I'm not sure how anyone could objectively watch the last two games and come away with any other conclusion. What happens going forward remains to be seen. But what should happen in my opinion is Thomas should take on the "Deuce" role when Bush returns. That means 10-15 carries, 2-4 receptions a game and the goal-line looks. If Deuce is suspended then obviously Thomas gets that role regardless because it would just be Bush and Thomas to carry the load.Just my two cents.I think this is the key here, Thomas got his chances because Deuce was hurt. I'm not saying it makes sense because he looked pretty good since last year, and he looked good last night. But wasn't he fourth on the depth chart before Stecker got hurt. Is there just something that the staff doesn't like about him?It's pretty obvious that Deuce re-injured the knee, or at the very least, tweaked it again. He was running much harder two weeks ago against the Panthers. Just one month ago Deuce averaged 5+ yards a carry in back to back games and looked like the stronger back. Something had to happen.Tirico mentioned that Deuce had his knee drained this week and it was limiting him.
Those failed conversions were much more as a result of the poor run blocking by the Saints O-line than lack of effort/talent by Pierre. He was hit in the backfield in each of those situations.bushisdaman said:The Washington and Denver games that we lost were close and PT wasnt running as hard back then and couldn't get the yard needed to sustain the game wining drive so I think he took a back seat for a while because of those poor performances. Clearly he has moved up the depth chart now and especially after last nights performance. Lance Moore was also on the bubble to be cut earlier in the year. times change.djmich said:I think this is the key here, Thomas got his chances because Deuce was hurt. I'm not saying it makes sense because he looked pretty good since last year, and he looked good last night. But wasn't he fourth on the depth chart before Stecker got hurt. Is there just something that the staff doesn't like about him?bushisdaman said:It's pretty obvious that Deuce re-injured the knee, or at the very least, tweaked it again. He was running much harder two weeks ago against the Panthers. Just one month ago Deuce averaged 5+ yards a carry in back to back games and looked like the stronger back. Something had to happen.Chaka said:Tirico mentioned that Deuce had his knee drained this week and it was limiting him.
P. Thomas cost New Orleans the game vs. Denver and Washington? Are you serious? First of all, against Washington, on the 1 yard line, it was P. Thomas who punched it in for the score to put New Orleans ahead. Secondly, the guy only had 6 carries in the game and 3 of those came in short yardage situations. 2 of them at the GL that he punched in and another on a 3rd and 1 with 6 minutes left in the game. The O-line had NO PUSH on that play whatsoever and Thomas was lucky to even get back to the LOS. Not to mention it was obvious from the play-calling what the play was going to be. What cost the Saints that game? The very next drive giving up a 67 yd TD bomb to S. Moss on the very 1st play that put Washington ahead and the subsequent Brees INT on their next drive with over 3 minutes remaining. To top it off, Washington had a 4th and 2 with 2 minutes left and the Saints defense allowed Campbell to complete an 8 yd pass to Moss to seal the game. A defensive stop there and NO gets the ball back with just under 2 min left at their own 35.Did Deuce look like his former self? No way so if you thought Deuce looked bad how can you watch the Washington and Denver games and honestly say Pierre Thomas ran well in those games? Frankly, he sucked and cost his team both victories. Here is a post I made about those early performances on the Saints board; http://www.saintsreport.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=sounds7
He played respectable against the Denver Defense (who doesnt) But what stuck out in my mind where two things. The end of the first half on the one yard line and 4 straight attempts he could not get in for the Td. Later in the game with it tied and the Saints on a scoring drive he needed 1 yard again for the game wining drive to continue just like the week before at Washington and he failed. The next week PT vanishes until week 9 and the other backs get more looks why? because the coach saw the same thing I did. Fast forward to today PT has corrected this situation and has played his way back into the lineup. We will just have to agree to disagree on PT play earlier in the season but we agree that now he is the better back and thats the main topic of this discussionP. Thomas cost New Orleans the game vs. Denver and Washington? Are you serious? First of all, against Washington, on the 1 yard line, it was P. Thomas who punched it in for the score to put New Orleans ahead. Secondly, the guy only had 6 carries in the game and 3 of those came in short yardage situations. 2 of them at the GL that he punched in and another on a 3rd and 1 with 6 minutes left in the game. The O-line had NO PUSH on that play whatsoever and Thomas was lucky to even get back to the LOS. Not to mention it was obvious from the play-calling what the play was going to be. What cost the Saints that game? The very next drive giving up a 67 yd TD bomb to S. Moss on the very 1st play that put Washington ahead and the subsequent Brees INT on their next drive with over 3 minutes remaining.Did Deuce look like his former self? No way so if you thought Deuce looked bad how can you watch the Washington and Denver games and honestly say Pierre Thomas ran well in those games? Frankly, he sucked and cost his team both victories. Here is a post I made about those early performances on the Saints board; http://www.saintsreport.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=sounds7
So, while it would have been nice if P. Thomas could have converted that 3rd and 1 late in the game, he HARDLY cost the Saints that game. That blame would fall on the NO secondary, Payton's play calling, and Brees on his late INT. Blaming PT for that loss is ridiculous.
Now, let's go to the Denver game. This is a game where P. Thomas scored TWO touchdowns and you want to blame the loss on him? Yes, he also didn't convert a late 3rd and 1 where again the OL had no push whatsoever. However, Gramatica missing a very makeable 43 yd FG to take the lead is what cost the Saints the game, not PT's lack of a 3rd down conversion. Blaming PT for that loss is even worse than blaming him for the loss vs. Washington.
Incorrect. You might want to go watch the game again or pull up the play-by-play. 1st down was a pass play to Patten from the 5 and he brought it to the 1. 2nd down was to P. Thomas and he didn't get in. 3rd down was a fumble by Brees and recovered by Karney. 4th down was another run attempt by P. Thomas and he failed to get in. I specifically remember that play as it was the EXACT same play they tried on 2nd down and they were waiting for it. So no, he did not fail on 4 straight attempts.Once again, the O-line's run blocking and Payton's play calling were just as much to blame for those lack of conversions as P. Thomas was. Could Deuce have punched it in? Maybe, maybe not. Is it possible that if PT converts either one the Saints win? Absolutely. Could the Saints have won if Payton had just kicked the FG there instead? Absolutely.He played respectable against the Denver Defense (who doesnt) But what stuck out in my mind where two things. The end of the first half on the one yard line and 4 straight attempts he could not get in for the Td. Later in the game with it tied and the Saints on a scoring drive he needed 1 yard again for the game wining drive to continue just like the week before at Washington and he failed. The next week PT vanishes until week 9 and the other backs get more looks why? because the coach saw the same thing I did. Fast forward to today PT has corrected this situation and has played his way back into the lineup.P. Thomas cost New Orleans the game vs. Denver and Washington? Are you serious? First of all, against Washington, on the 1 yard line, it was P. Thomas who punched it in for the score to put New Orleans ahead. Secondly, the guy only had 6 carries in the game and 3 of those came in short yardage situations. 2 of them at the GL that he punched in and another on a 3rd and 1 with 6 minutes left in the game. The O-line had NO PUSH on that play whatsoever and Thomas was lucky to even get back to the LOS. Not to mention it was obvious from the play-calling what the play was going to be. What cost the Saints that game? The very next drive giving up a 67 yd TD bomb to S. Moss on the very 1st play that put Washington ahead and the subsequent Brees INT on their next drive with over 3 minutes remaining.Did Deuce look like his former self? No way so if you thought Deuce looked bad how can you watch the Washington and Denver games and honestly say Pierre Thomas ran well in those games? Frankly, he sucked and cost his team both victories. Here is a post I made about those early performances on the Saints board; http://www.saintsreport.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=sounds7
So, while it would have been nice if P. Thomas could have converted that 3rd and 1 late in the game, he HARDLY cost the Saints that game. That blame would fall on the NO secondary, Payton's play calling, and Brees on his late INT. Blaming PT for that loss is ridiculous.
Now, let's go to the Denver game. This is a game where P. Thomas scored TWO touchdowns and you want to blame the loss on him? Yes, he also didn't convert a late 3rd and 1 where again the OL had no push whatsoever. However, Gramatica missing a very makeable 43 yd FG to take the lead is what cost the Saints the game, not PT's lack of a 3rd down conversion. Blaming PT for that loss is even worse than blaming him for the loss vs. Washington.
If it was the O line's fault entirely then just one week before in limited action Deuce got 5 ypc on his only two carries behind the same line in the same situation. Deuce wasnt even 100% and he got 5ypc on his only 2 carries at Washington. Ad that with PT failed 5 attempts at one yard and it equaled up to dog house for 5 games. And You are stuck on the two losses being blamed totally on PT. I wont give him the total credit for the loses but he was part of it. Any way lets move on.Incorrect. You might want to go watch the game again or pull up the play-by-play. 1st down was a pass play to Patten from the 5 and he brought it to the 1. 2nd down was to P. Thomas and he didn't get in. 3rd down was a fumble by Brees and recovered by Karney. 4th down was another run attempt by P. Thomas and he failed to get in. I specifically remember that play as it was the EXACT same play they tried on 2nd down and they were waiting for it. So no, he did not fail on 4 straight attempts.Once again, the O-line's run blocking and Payton's play calling were just as much to blame for those lack of conversions as P. Thomas was. Could Deuce have punched it in? Maybe, maybe not. Is it possible that if PT converts either one the Saints win? Absolutely. Could the Saints have won if Payton had just kicked the FG there instead? Absolutely.He played respectable against the Denver Defense (who doesnt) But what stuck out in my mind where two things. The end of the first half on the one yard line and 4 straight attempts he could not get in for the Td. Later in the game with it tied and the Saints on a scoring drive he needed 1 yard again for the game wining drive to continue just like the week before at Washington and he failed. The next week PT vanishes until week 9 and the other backs get more looks why? because the coach saw the same thing I did. Fast forward to today PT has corrected this situation and has played his way back into the lineup.P. Thomas cost New Orleans the game vs. Denver and Washington? Are you serious? First of all, against Washington, on the 1 yard line, it was P. Thomas who punched it in for the score to put New Orleans ahead. Secondly, the guy only had 6 carries in the game and 3 of those came in short yardage situations. 2 of them at the GL that he punched in and another on a 3rd and 1 with 6 minutes left in the game. The O-line had NO PUSH on that play whatsoever and Thomas was lucky to even get back to the LOS. Not to mention it was obvious from the play-calling what the play was going to be. What cost the Saints that game? The very next drive giving up a 67 yd TD bomb to S. Moss on the very 1st play that put Washington ahead and the subsequent Brees INT on their next drive with over 3 minutes remaining.Did Deuce look like his former self? No way so if you thought Deuce looked bad how can you watch the Washington and Denver games and honestly say Pierre Thomas ran well in those games? Frankly, he sucked and cost his team both victories. Here is a post I made about those early performances on the Saints board; http://www.saintsreport.com/forums/showthr...ghlight=sounds7
So, while it would have been nice if P. Thomas could have converted that 3rd and 1 late in the game, he HARDLY cost the Saints that game. That blame would fall on the NO secondary, Payton's play calling, and Brees on his late INT. Blaming PT for that loss is ridiculous.
Now, let's go to the Denver game. This is a game where P. Thomas scored TWO touchdowns and you want to blame the loss on him? Yes, he also didn't convert a late 3rd and 1 where again the OL had no push whatsoever. However, Gramatica missing a very makeable 43 yd FG to take the lead is what cost the Saints the game, not PT's lack of a 3rd down conversion. Blaming PT for that loss is even worse than blaming him for the loss vs. Washington.
Again, there's no doubt he couldn't convert a couple key 3rd and short/4th and short down plays. It was extremely disappointing given how he was playing the rest of the game. However, the blame on those lack of conversions isn't solely on P. Thomas and I would argue was much more of a result of poor run blocking. And even more importantly, to blame those 2 losses on P. Thomas is absurd given the failure by the Saints in other more important areas that should never have happened. Thomas is the LAST person to blame for those 2 losses.
Dog house- he became the kick returner for 5 gamesI can understand the train of thought where Thomas was behind Deuce because the staff is loyal to Deuce. Don't necessarily think that is correct, but it may be.What is the logic for why he was behind Stecker when Stecker was healthy?
I'm sure someone knows the answer for sure, but my guess is that this was a special teams thing. When Bush was healthy so you had Bush, McAllister and then the 3rd RB had to be a special teams guy. Weeks 8 & 10, when Bush has been out and Deuce was used a lot, it's hard to tell who was behind who by the stats. They were both used sparingly and then Thomas has gotten the work lately.I can understand the train of thought where Thomas was behind Deuce because the staff is loyal to Deuce. Don't necessarily think that is correct, but it may be.What is the logic for why he was behind Stecker when Stecker was healthy?
And this comes back to my question about whether Payton errored by putting his second-best RB in the dog house for so many games.Dog house- he became the kick returner for 5 gamesI can understand the train of thought where Thomas was behind Deuce because the staff is loyal to Deuce. Don't necessarily think that is correct, but it may be.What is the logic for why he was behind Stecker when Stecker was healthy?
That might be because you previously said: "Frankly, he sucked and cost his team both victories."That statement strongly implies that you believe Thomas is the sole or leading reason why the Saints lost both games.And You are stuck on the two losses being blamed totally on PT.
In Hind sight maybe he errored but that wouldnt be the first timeAnd this comes back to my question about whether Payton errored by putting his second-best RB in the dog house for so many games.Dog house- he became the kick returner for 5 gamesI can understand the train of thought where Thomas was behind Deuce because the staff is loyal to Deuce. Don't necessarily think that is correct, but it may be.What is the logic for why he was behind Stecker when Stecker was healthy?
My hope was the same as it is whenever I have a player going against the Packers. I want the player to do well and the Packers to win. I expected plenty of points so I was confident Thomas would do well and he did. Unfortunately, the Packers didn't play as well as I expected and got blown out. The way I look at it is it's unlikely the Packers (or most teams) will pitch a shutout so if they're going to give up any TDs I hope it goes to my guy. Unfortunately, they gave it up to my guy and plenty more last night.By the way Packersfan, being the all out Pierre Thomas owner that you are, how compromised were you last night with your team going against PT? There was a Saints fan in front of me in the Dome and every time Rogers would score he would cheer and then he turned right back around and pulled for the Saints when we had the ball. I guess his fantasy team made out alright but I wanted to smack him for cheering Rogers at a Saints game for his fantasy team.
Good point. It may not be December 30th, 2007 today, but in a few years who knows?something to think about:
Pierre Thomas
Last year week 17 -12/30/2007
against CHI @ CHI
20att 105yds 5.3ypc 13 long 0 TD
AND
12Rec 121yds 10.1avg 17long 1 TD
226 Total yards and a receiving TD against Chicago. Not Bad.
[No Deuce, No Bush, lots of Devin Hester]
He will obviously be involved some, but what degree will be interesting. With McAllister washed up and getting fluid drained out of his knee and Bush still recovering from knee surgery and getting constantly dinged up THomas is a great guy to hold onto to. He will still have some value and it may be more than you think.From fanball:Saints: Thomas will still be involved11/25/08 11:36 PMSaints running back Pierre Thomas will be involved more heavily even when Reggie Bush returns to action, according to the Biloxi Sun-Hearld.
Came earlier than you thought?Good point. It may not be December 30th, 2007 today, but in a few years who knows?something to think about:
Pierre Thomas
Last year week 17 -12/30/2007
against CHI @ CHI
20att 105yds 5.3ypc 13 long 0 TD
AND
12Rec 121yds 10.1avg 17long 1 TD
226 Total yards and a receiving TD against Chicago. Not Bad.
[No Deuce, No Bush, lots of Devin Hester]
Actually no. I started him with confidence last night.protoslacker said:Came earlier than you thought?Good point. It may not be December 30th, 2007 today, but in a few years who knows?something to think about:
Pierre Thomas
Last year week 17 -12/30/2007
against CHI @ CHI
20att 105yds 5.3ypc 13 long 0 TD
AND
12Rec 121yds 10.1avg 17long 1 TD
226 Total yards and a receiving TD against Chicago. Not Bad.
[No Deuce, No Bush, lots of Devin Hester]