Politics and War in Ukraine (1 Viewer)

[SaintsInDome2006]

Saints, as I wrote, I have no love for Putin. But I don't think my dislike for Ukraine is affecting my judgment about this situation except to the extent that it causes me to distrust the Ukraine govt. but I recognize that in this situation, the Russians are the bad guys. I just don't think we should overreact.

As I posted further above Putin's "Russki" language in his Crimean annexation speech is very telling; he is embracing ethnic nationalism. I don't have to tell you what that means. If you are going to include history in your calculus, at all, you should slide that little nugget onto the scale.

 

[SacramentoBob]

Nevilleschochet.

 

[Slapdash]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong.

Well that almost never happens with you.

 

[fatness]

With all this "natural gas to Europe ASAP!" talk, any energy company with half a brain will start trying to get favorable government regulations passed so they can produce more. PA is pretty fracking-friendly so they'd probably go for it. Then in several years the gas can go on the open market with no assurance at all that Europe will pay the highest price for it, and with domestic industrial users of natural gas opposing more exports (since they pay less for natural gas than do foreign countries). Sounds like costing a lot of money to domestic users of natural gas, and like a lot of money to be made by gas producers with little assurance that it'll go to Europe. But it'll appear to do something to combat Russia so I'd really push for it if I was an energy company.

 

[Slapdash]

With all this "natural gas to Europe ASAP!" talk, any energy company with half a brain will start trying to get favorable government regulations passed so they can produce more. PA is pretty fracking-friendly so they'd probably go for it.

So.....business as usual then?

 

[Dr Oadi]

I was ripped here (justifiably) for predicting there would be no annexation, but some of the other responses in this thread recently strike me as far more silly than my prediction. We're weak unless we use military force? Putin won't stop until we get together to stop him?

What makes you think he is going to stop with Crimea if all the West does it wag their fingers at him?

We have his word on his intentions. Putin has no intention of invading other regions of the Ukraine....at this time. If the west makes aggressive moves this could change.

 

[HellToupee]

Oh, and in the debates Mitt Romney pretty much called this too, and the moderator smacked him down hard for it. Can't be true. I mean, that republican doofus also said ObamaCare would implode and look how wrong he was about that! Stupid republicans.

Stupid jackasses who just vote for the party & not the candidate

 

[fatness]

With all this "natural gas to Europe ASAP!" talk, any energy company with half a brain will start trying to get favorable government regulations passed so they can produce more. PA is pretty fracking-friendly so they'd probably go for it.

So.....business as usual then?

So......what's being made to sound simple, isn't.

 

[dickey moe]

I freely admit to an intense dislike and distrust of Ukraine. No matter how bad Putin is acting, Ukraine are not good people.

This ain't any good?: http://cdn1.modelsrating.com/sites/default/files/models/other_photos/Katya_Kulizhka_20.jpg

 

[dickey moe]

Nevilleschochet.

LOL

 

[Cliff Clavin]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.

If the Germans still had statues of Hitler in their public parks, and if their leaders praised him on a regular basis, I'm sure I wouldn't like them much either. The difference between all the groups you named as that the Ukranians to this day glorify their mass murderers.

Just checked with my in-laws (all Ukrainian) and they definitely don't glorify mass murderers. Especially not the way your glorify rapists. You truly are a piece of ####.

 

[Dr Oadi]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.

If the Germans still had statues of Hitler in their public parks, and if their leaders praised him on a regular basis, I'm sure I wouldn't like them much either. The difference between all the groups you named as that the Ukranians to this day glorify their mass murderers.

Just checked with my in-laws (all Ukrainian) and they definitely don't glorify mass murderers. Especially not the way your glorify rapists. You truly are a piece of ####.

I missed this.

 

[HellToupee]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.

If the Germans still had statues of Hitler in their public parks, and if their leaders praised him on a regular basis, I'm sure I wouldn't like them much either. The difference between all the groups you named as that the Ukranians to this day glorify their mass murderers.

Just checked with my in-laws (all Ukrainian) and they definitely don't glorify mass murderers. Especially not the way your glorify rapists. You truly are a piece of ####.

the nice thing about CC is there is no dicking around , always calls 'em as he sees 'em .

 

[John Bender]

Let me clarify because I think that came out wrong. I don't dislike Ukranians as individuals. The few I've known were fine people. I feel the exact same way about Iranians- and I've known many more of them/ they are salt of the Earth, as kind a people and as courteous as you will ever encounter.

But just as I doubt I could ever trust the government of Iran, given its history, I don't think I could ever trust Ukraine. 75% of my family was exterminated there, and if the Ukrainians were not the instigators, they were quite willing collaborators (google "Babi Yar" if anyone's interested.) And before the Holocaust there were the progroms going all the way back to Chmelnitski- a mass murderer of a half a million Jews who to this day is regarded by Ukranians as one of their greatest national heroes. So no, I don't like them as a nation nor trust them.

That doesn't mean I like Putin or Russia either. It's just hard for me to regard Ukraine as the good guys.

You feel the same way about the Germans, Cambodians, Americans, Japanese etc etc etc? They all committed mass atrocities at one time or another.

If the Germans still had statues of Hitler in their public parks, and if their leaders praised him on a regular basis, I'm sure I wouldn't like them much either. The difference between all the groups you named as that the Ukranians to this day glorify their mass murderers.

Just checked with my in-laws (all Ukrainian) and they definitely don't glorify mass murderers. Especially not the way your glorify rapists. You truly are a piece of ####.

I missed this.

You don't want to revisit it either. Truly disturbing thread on his end especially when you juxtapose it vs his dislike for Ukrainians (which is why I pointed it out earlier). I remember after that debacle him promising to cut back on the posting lol. Lasted about 3 hours. Lost any respect I had left for him that way. Despicable guy... Truly

 

[timschochet]

First off, I am truly sorry that you think the way you do about me, John Bender, because I have respect for you. I made a mess of things in that thread- I was trying to make a distinction. It was poorly done. I apologized for it then and I've regretted it ever since.

Next, regarding Cliff, Ukraine, and their glorification of a mass murderer, I refer anyone whose interested to the Wikipedia entry for Bohdan Khemlnytsky, who I referred to earlier as Chelmnitsky, as he is also known:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chmelnitsky#Khmelnytsky_remembered

2 passages are of particular importance. First:

Between 1648 and 1656, tens of thousands of Jews—given the lack of reliable data, it is impossible to establish more accurate figures—were killed by the rebels, and to this day the Khmelnytsky uprising is considered by Jews to be one of the most traumatic events in their history

And second:

In Ukraine, Khmelnytsky is generally regarded as a national hero[17][18][19] and a father of the nation.[citation needed] A city[20] and a region of the country bear his name. His image is prominently displayed on Ukrainian banknotes and his monument in the centre of Kiev is the focal point of the Ukrainian capital.

So Cliff, all I can say to you is, please ask your in-laws about their national hero, about the "father of the nation", who ordered his troops to slaughter every Jew they could, men, women, children, and babies. And if they tell you that he's a hero, then they're the true pieces of ####, not me.

 

[timschochet]

As I wrote earlier, it's as if the Germans had a statue of Adolf Hitler in the center of Berlin. Or if they had Heinrich Himmler on banknotes. But that's not all. Many of the leaders of the Ukraine make ugly anti-Semitic comments all the time. The Protocol of the Elders of Zion remains a best seller over there. Sorry, but it's a hateful place, and always has been.

 

[Christo]

As I wrote earlier, it's as if the Germans had a statue of Adolf Hitler in the center of Berlin. Or if they had Heinrich Himmler on banknotes. But that's not all. Many of the leaders of the Ukraine make ugly anti-Semitic comments all the time. The Protocol of the Elders of Zion remains a best seller over there. Sorry, but it's a hateful place, and always has been.

I see your point. But your pointing the finger at Ukraine seems a little selective. The whole of Eastern Europe is essentially where the US South was after the Civil War bigotry-wise. Eastern European soccer fans throwing bananas at black players is not an unusual occurrence.

 

[timschochet]

As I wrote earlier, it's as if the Germans had a statue of Adolf Hitler in the center of Berlin. Or if they had Heinrich Himmler on banknotes. But that's not all. Many of the leaders of the Ukraine make ugly anti-Semitic comments all the time. The Protocol of the Elders of Zion remains a best seller over there. Sorry, but it's a hateful place, and always has been.

I see your point. But your pointing the finger at Ukraine seems a little selective. The whole of Eastern Europe is essentially where the US South was after the Civil War bigotry-wise. Eastern European soccer fans throwing bananas at black players is not an unusual occurrence.

I agree. Russia is little better. The Baltic states, Poland- when it comes to anti-Semitism, there's little to choose from between them IMO.

My only point is that I don't trust Ukraine and I have real trouble seeing them as heroes and people interested in freedom, democracy, and our ideals. Maybe they truly are, but I'm skeptical.

 

[drummer]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

 

[timschochet]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.

And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

 

[drummer]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.

And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

 

[timschochet]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.

And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.

More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

 

[drummer]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.

And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.

More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

Genocide is genocide. You're just trying to justify it down to one person to fit your narrative.

ETA: You can't pick and choose your genocides, tim, and you can't selectively blame genocide either. You should also post how much genocide happened between the 17th and 20th centuries. Then maybe your beef over something that happened in the 17th century would have something to weigh it with.

 

[timschochet]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

Genocide is genocide. You're just trying to justify it down to one person to fit your narrative.

ETA: You can't pick and choose your genocides, tim, and you can't selectively blame genocide either. You should also post how much genocide happened between the 17th and 20th centuries. Then maybe your beef over something that happened in the 17th century would have something to weigh it with.

OK you're still missing the point. I don't care about what happened in the 17th century. I care that they still honor the guy that did it, that even today he's regarded as a hero, and that that still seem to hate Jews just as much as they did back then.

 

[drummer]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

Genocide is genocide. You're just trying to justify it down to one person to fit your narrative.

ETA: You can't pick and choose your genocides, tim, and you can't selectively blame genocide either. You should also post how much genocide happened between the 17th and 20th centuries. Then maybe your beef over something that happened in the 17th century would have something to weigh it with.

OK you're still missing the point. I don't care about what happened in the 17th century. I care that they still honor the guy that did it, that even today he's regarded as a hero, and that that still seem to hate Jews just as much as they did back then.

Now you're being dishonest again. All I did was put a point on the idea of time and century. Because history depends on it. If you don't care about history and time, then you have no reason to even try to talk about it.

Tim, you're a sociopath. I mean that in the cultural definition. Because you're ultimately dishonest. Look, tossing out a "I respect your opinion and always have and I'm sorry for what I posted" makes this board look horrid. Seriously, we don't want a self proclaimed martyr for the FFA cause. Martyr's die. A message board martyr is not real. Because this is not real life.

Check this out man:

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sociopath

Cultural Dictionary
sociopath [( soh -see-uh-path, soh -shee-uh-path)] Someone whose social behavior is extremely abnormal. Sociopaths are interested only in their personal needs and desires, without concern for the effects of their behavior on others.

Your needs will never exceed others. You can by choice and freewill leave here. Are you a truly free man tim? Can you, by freewill, leave here on your own? Is this the final expectation of your evolution as a person? Or are you a slave to the judgement of others?

Of course as a former Mod of a few message boards, I would had defended you in those super secret Mod forums. Because Trolls are good things for message boards. I never ran many trolls though. But it's a message board anyway. So my trolls would had died just because I didn't put any energy into it.

Maybe your value is being The Martyr. I suggest you dress up in 17th Century Ukraine, die amongst the souls of ancestors, and then show how free you are to still continue to live on a message board.

The sound you hear now isn't a collective sigh. It's the "I" in your head.

 

[drummer]

BTW tim, I doubt you're even Jewish. I think it's an act, because I know Jewish Holocaust survivors. You're not serving that cause well.

 

[Dr Oadi]

Obama rules out military excursion in Ukraine. Feel free to take it all Mr Putin.

http://news.yahoo.com/obama-rules-military-excursion-ukraine-004220596.html

 

[drummer]

I was around 21 years old when I heard my first Holocaust story from a survivor. I was 21 years old, the audio recordist for a video funded by the Simon Wiesenthal Foundation. He was a survivor of Josef Mengele's Jewish staff of doctor's. Pardon me if I use the word staff here, but that was the only way he survived. The stories he told changed my life. I never saw humanity the same way ever. You think you can imagine 17th century genocide to 20th century technology and the experimentation on human life? To this day, things that happen in Darfur are still more humane then what a madman in Mengele did then. For one thing, the use of electricity.

How the hell does one compare the 17th century to 20th with the use of technology such as electricity?

I spent a whole afternoon having to carefully listen to the violence of madmen. It got to the point where we all had to take a break from it. The odd thing about the shoot: the young producer took a dump in the bathroom of the condo we shot at, came out and said : "Holy ####! It smells like Auschwitz in there!"

The last part of the shoot was the survivor showing us propaganda. But not of Nazi era Germany. Rather, it was flyers of American Neo-Nazi groups, not towards Jewish people. Rather it was towards African-Americans here is the US.

I asked him why.

He told me, "This is what we saw, and this is how it starts".

tim's posts reminds me of that day. Not because of anything Jewish. It's because I see his posts just like those flyers.

 

[charvik]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.

And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.

More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

So it's better to spread out genocide over multiple figures of state, over 100s of years, than one individual?

Good thing we don't have those guys all over the currency, or carved into mountains, that would be odd.

 

[drummer]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.

And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.

More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

So it's better to spread out genocide over multiple figures of state, over 100s of years, than one individual?

Good thing we don't have those guys all over the currency, or carved into mountains, that would be odd.

I'm just wondering how much Jews mattered in America before the fall of Hitler.

 

[StrikeS2k]

I'm just wondering how much Jews mattered in America before the fall of Hitler.

We had banks back then too, didn't we?

 

[drummer]

I'm just wondering how much Jews mattered in America before the fall of Hitler.

We had banks back then too, didn't we?

Yeah but we celebrated who robbed them more.

 

[timschochet]

Just got up and read your posts Drummer. Last night I wrote that I distrust Ukraine because they venerate a 17th century mass murderer of Jews, treat him like a hero, and continue to promote anti- Semitism. While i dont care about what happened 300 uears ago, it bothers me that they still worship the guy. Thats an opinion on my part, one that people are welcome to disagree with, but I guarantee you it's shared by many many Jews.

So now you've decided that I'm a liar and a sociopath, that I want to be a martyr? Dude, that's just weird.

 

[charvik]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.

And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.

More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

So it's better to spread out genocide over multiple figures of state, over 100s of years, than one individual?

Good thing we don't have those guys all over the currency, or carved into mountains, that would be odd.

I'm just wondering how much Jews mattered in America before the fall of Hitler.

Many took ideas and ideologies with them from the countries they left:

With the influx of Jews from Central and Eastern Europe many members of the Jewish community were attracted to labor and socialist movements and numerous Jewish newspapers such as Forwerts and Morgen Freiheit had a socialist orientation. Left wing organizations such as the Arbeter Ring and the Jewish People's Fraternal Order played an important part in Jewish community life until World War II.

Jewish Americans were not just involved in nearly every important social movement but in the forefront of promoting such issues as workers rights, civil rights, woman's rights, freedom of religion, peace movements, and various other progressive causes.

It makes perfect sense, as many immigrants left very poor conditions in their native countries, and saw an opportunity to make a big difference in a young nation that could still be influenced and shaped.

 

[drummer]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.

And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.

More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

So it's better to spread out genocide over multiple figures of state, over 100s of years, than one individual?

Good thing we don't have those guys all over the currency, or carved into mountains, that would be odd.

I'm just wondering how much Jews mattered in America before the fall of Hitler.

Many took ideas and ideologies with them from the countries they left:

With the influx of Jews from Central and Eastern Europe many members of the Jewish community were attracted to labor and socialist movements and numerous Jewish newspapers such as Forwerts and Morgen Freiheit had a socialist orientation. Left wing organizations such as the Arbeter Ring and the Jewish People's Fraternal Order played an important part in Jewish community life until World War II.

Jewish Americans were not just involved in nearly every important social movement but in the forefront of promoting such issues as workers rights, civil rights, woman's rights, freedom of religion, peace movements, and various other progressive causes.

It makes perfect sense, as many immigrants left very poor conditions in their native countries, and saw an opportunity to make a big difference in a young nation that could still be influenced and shaped.

Well yeah, many an immigrant has done this in North America. It's not exclusive to Jews. Like say Pilgrims?

 

[charvik]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.

And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.

More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

So it's better to spread out genocide over multiple figures of state, over 100s of years, than one individual?

Good thing we don't have those guys all over the currency, or carved into mountains, that would be odd.

I'm just wondering how much Jews mattered in America before the fall of Hitler.

Many took ideas and ideologies with them from the countries they left:

With the influx of Jews from Central and Eastern Europe many members of the Jewish community were attracted to labor and socialist movements and numerous Jewish newspapers such as Forwerts and Morgen Freiheit had a socialist orientation. Left wing organizations such as the Arbeter Ring and the Jewish People's Fraternal Order played an important part in Jewish community life until World War II.

Jewish Americans were not just involved in nearly every important social movement but in the forefront of promoting such issues as workers rights, civil rights, woman's rights, freedom of religion, peace movements, and various other progressive causes.

It makes perfect sense, as many immigrants left very poor conditions in their native countries, and saw an opportunity to make a big difference in a young nation that could still be influenced and shaped.

Well yeah, many an immigrant has done this in North America. It's not exclusive to Jews.

Oh, I agree with that 100%. Most immigrants saw a chance to reverse their fortunes in the new country. This generally included helping their countrymen assimilate in the new country. When in an unfamiliar situation, many tend to seek out familiar things and places, as evident of the many villages/cities in the US which heavily featured one ethnicity or country.

 

[mr roboto]

Can we please not make this about Tim.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Real or not, what Tim raises, the historicity of what he describes is real. If he didn't lose 3 of 4 grandparents, someone did.

However there were are still statues of Stalin built in Russia and many remain. He killed 20-40 million, probably closer to the latter. Jews, Christians, aetheists, neither, political prisoners, loyal communists, property owners, serfs, you name it. How many of those were Jews, Tim, do you think?

Stalin also had a lovely little plan: his plan was to take all the Jews who refused to stop being Jewish and become good communists and ship them all off to one little dry, ugly, stinking path of land called the Pale of Settlement. The Cherokees would have thought this was an improvement over what they got because this little tract is wedged somewhere between the assccheeks of outer Mongolia. Thankfully Stalin died before this could really go into effect. Guess whoBut not before he could concoct the Doctors Plot. That was a propaganda effort in which Stalin attempted to pin the political executions he had been doing most recently on.... wait for it... the Jews! Hey but good thing you're pulling for the Russians, because hey they're "good people."

And Lenin: some 10 million died on his watch. Political executions, closing of synagogues and churches, white Russians, royalists, democrats, socialists, mensheviks, they all went dow. But one toll remains outside all that: the Ukraine famine. The Ukraine famine was caused purposefully by the USSR, they did it for a variety of reasons but one was to quash the nascent nation of Ukraine. Millions upon million dies. How many Jews died on his watch, do you think, Tim?

Tim, they have a statue built to Lenin in Crimea, it's a prominent one:

http://www.art.com/products/p1631904936-sa-i4192138/rolf-richardson-lenin-statue-yalta-crimea-ukraine-europe.htm

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-14/crimeans-under-lenin-s-statue-embrace-russia-as-west-unheeded.html

Tim, if you want to start striking off nations and peoples off your list based on the statues they build to genocidal mass murderers, start here. Khmelnytsky can't hold a candle to either of them in terms of death toll or the gruesomeness of their deeds.

 

[drummer]

Just got up and read your posts Drummer. Last night I wrote that I distrust Ukraine because they venerate a 17th century mass murderer of Jews, treat him like a hero, and continue to promote anti- Semitism. While i dont care about what happened 300 uears ago, it bothers me that they still worship the guy. Thats an opinion on my part, one that people are welcome to disagree with, but I guarantee you it's shared by many many Jews.

So now you've decided that I'm a liar and a sociopath, that I want to be a martyr? Dude, that's just weird.

It's not up to me to decide who you are on a message board. It's how you define yourself.

By all accounts over the years, and all of the suggestions from others as well as the critics who you never listen to: you're a total sociopath. Because you're dishonest, calculated, and self serving, and you have zero communication skills. Sociopaths make great trolls. Mods could care less about you because, lol, they are mods.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Just got up and read your posts Drummer. Last night I wrote that I distrust Ukraine because they venerate a 17th century mass murderer of Jews, treat him like a hero, and continue to promote anti- Semitism. While i dont care about what happened 300 uears ago, it bothers me that they still worship the guy. Thats an opinion on my part, one that people are welcome to disagree with, but I guarantee you it's shared by many many Jews.

So now you've decided that I'm a liar and a sociopath, that I want to be a martyr? Dude, that's just weird.

Tim,

You're generalizing again. First of all, I don't know who the guy is and I really don't care. I suspect a lot of people over "there" don't know who the f he is either. And if any worship him I doubt it's because he slaughtered jews. What if I generalized that all mexicans are callous murderers because of what the cartels do down there? You'd label me a xenophobe, wouldn't you? Oh wait, you've already done that despite the fact that I've never said a bad word about mexicans. IOW, you're not making yourself look any better trying to justify your irrational hatred and generalizations of people you don't even know.

 

[charvik]

Can we please not make this about Tim.

I will drop the subject.

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Can we please not make this about Tim.

Frankly Putin brought this up in his speech - the fact that Ukraine fought against the Soviets in WW2. Putin has framed them as fascists on this basis. In that same speech he branded political opponents inside Russia as "traitors." It is a real piece of work of paranoia, but it's one of the main props Putin has used for his invasion and annexation. It is of course a canard but I think it's important to deal with it head on.

 

[mr roboto]

I refuse to believe Putin brought Tim up in his speech.

 

[timschochet]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

So it's better to spread out genocide over multiple figures of state, over 100s of years, than one individual?Good thing we don't have those guys all over the currency, or carved into mountains, that would be odd.

Yes some of those guys are on our currency and carved on mountains. But suppose, on a fairly regular basis, promo moment politicians from both parties said publicly, "Andrew Jackson is a true American hero because he exterminated Indians. I think we need to exterminate MORE Indians!" Suppose that wasn't some extremist comment, but representative of typical commentary? What would you think of this country then?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I refuse to believe Putin brought Tim up in his speech.

Ha ok I have sht to do. Let me know when football season starts.

 

[drummer]

Can we please not make this about Tim.

It's about Jews now. Unless others makes themselves the de-facto FFA Jew, all we have is WikiJew tim.

 

[drummer]

Someone is comparing the 17th Century to the 20th Century. Just because of his Jewish ancestry. Then saying Russia is better somehow in all this.

No, I did not say that Russia was better. And also, Ukraine has statues of this guy and banknotes and he is constantly revered, 17th century or not.And the only thing this has to do with my Jewish ancestry is that because of that ancestry, I am aware that it happened. But if I was alive 300 years from now, visited Cambodia, and there were statues of Pol Pot, I wouldn't trust that country either.

You realize that American Indians can be considered subject to genocide too, don't you? What about the whole Spanish conquest?

You're just being selective with genocide, that's all.

I don't think I am. There isn't one central figure in American history who is responsible for the native American genocide. Not like Chmelnitsky. There are some bad people who we tend to revere, like Andrew Jackson, Christopher Columbus, even Woodrow Wilson. But not on this level.More importantly, we don't have major politicians in this country talking about how what happened to the Indians was a good thing and calling Andrew Jackson a hero because of what he did to them. If that were typical of the modern US Congress, I would have the same feelings about this country as I do about the Ukraine.

So it's better to spread out genocide over multiple figures of state, over 100s of years, than one individual?Good thing we don't have those guys all over the currency, or carved into mountains, that would be odd.

Yes some of those guys are on our currency and carved on mountains.But suppose, on a fairly regular basis, promo moment politicians from both parties said publicly, "Andrew Jackson is a true American hero because he exterminated Indians. I think we need to exterminate MORE Indians!" Suppose that wasn't some extremist comment, but representative of typical commentary? What would you think of this country then?

I think I would rather try to affect this country in this century than blame another nation's shenanigans in the 17th century on a message board.

 

[timschochet]

Real or not, what Tim raises, the historicity of what he describes is real. If he didn't lose 3 of 4 grandparents, someone did.

However there were are still statues of Stalin built in Russia and many remain. He killed 20-40 million, probably closer to the latter. Jews, Christians, aetheists, neither, political prisoners, loyal communists, property owners, serfs, you name it. How many of those were Jews, Tim, do you think?

And Lenin: some 10 million died on his watch. Political executions, closing of synagogues and churches, white Russians, royalists, democrats, socialists, mensheviks, they all went dow. But one toll remains outside all that: the Ukraine famine. The Ukraine famine was caused purposefully by the USSR, they did it for a variety of reasons but one was to quash the nascent nation of Ukraine. Millions upon million dies. How many Jews died on his watch, do you think, Tim?

Tim, they have a statue built to Lenin in Crimea, it's a prominent one:

http://www.art.com/products/p1631904936-sa-i4192138/rolf-richardson-lenin-statue-yalta-crimea-ukraine-europe.htm

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-14/crimeans-under-lenin-s-statue-embrace-russia-as-west-unheeded.html

Tim, if you want to start striking off nations and peoples off your list based on the statues they build to genocidal mass murderers, start here. Khmelnytsky can't hold a candle to either of them in terms of death toll or the gruesomeness of their deeds.

Saints, you're right. Russia is far worse than Ukraine and Stalin is a much bigger monster than Chmelnitsky, historically. My only reason for bringing this up was to explain why I didn't trust Ukraine. That doesn't justify in any way what Rissia has done.

 

[Cliff Clavin]

First off, I am truly sorry that you think the way you do about me, John Bender, because I have respect for you. I made a mess of things in that thread- I was trying to make a distinction. It was poorly done. I apologized for it then and I've regretted it ever since.

Next, regarding Cliff, Ukraine, and their glorification of a mass murderer, I refer anyone whose interested to the Wikipedia entry for Bohdan Khemlnytsky, who I referred to earlier as Chelmnitsky, as he is also known:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chmelnitsky#Khmelnytsky_remembered

2 passages are of particular importance. First:

Between 1648 and 1656, tens of thousands of Jews—given the lack of reliable data, it is impossible to establish more accurate figures—were killed by the rebels, and to this day the Khmelnytsky uprising is considered by Jews to be one of the most traumatic events in their history

And second:

In Ukraine, Khmelnytsky is generally regarded as a national hero[17][18][19] and a father of the nation.[citation needed] A city[20] and a region of the country bear his name. His image is prominently displayed on Ukrainian banknotes and his monument in the centre of Kiev is the focal point of the Ukrainian capital.

So Cliff, all I can say to you is, please ask your in-laws about their national hero, about the "father of the nation", who ordered his troops to slaughter every Jew they could, men, women, children, and babies. And if they tell you that he's a hero, then they're the true pieces of ####, not me.

You are a piece of ####. But please, continue to try and justify your hate.

 

[Slapdash]

Can we please not make this about Tim.

What? You mean you didn't come to this thread to watch [SIZE=10pt]Tim explain why his bigotry towards Ukrainians is rational? [/SIZE]