Doug B
Footballguy
Below, I am posting several messages from the main Tua Tagavailoa player thread to avoid completely hijacking it. Thought it would be good to start a new thread and bring the concussion-protocol discussion over here:
Doug B wrote (consider this the OP):
Just thinking out loud here ...
This might be a dumb idea, but could there be something like a "Looked bad on TV" rule? Basically, someone completely unaffiliated with the teams and the league would make judgment calls on "probable concussion?" from afar, using strictly the TV coverage. Not too different from what us fans do on Twitter -- though hopefully, people with credentials like those of Dr. David Chao (for example) would be employed.
One potentially tricky part is that the people doing these judgments would have to be volunteers -- they could not have a financial relationship with the league or individual teams. Maybe it would be kind of a non-profit that could perform this service for multiple pro sports leagues, college football, etc. It would be completely electronic-information based. You wouldn't need a "concussion reviewer" at each stadium, arena, or rink. What you would need is a system -- unofficial or official -- of getting footage of a bad-looking head hit over to a remote concussion reviewer. Twitter reacts to probable concussions in near-real time -- surely 2022's information technology can be harnessed into a more formal framework?
ignatiusjreilly wrote:
Isn't that what the current "spotter" system is?
Doug B wrote:
Two main differences:
1) The current spotters are actually at the stadiums.
2) The current spotters don't themselves make the "sit 'em" calls -- their role is limited to alerting team physicians on the sidelines to a potential head injury.
What I'm conceiving of basically takes team physicians and sideline staff out of the equation. No taking/passing sideline concussion tests. No mystery visits to the medical tent. None of that.
That's why I call it the "looked bad on TV" rule. If the league really, really, REALLY wants concussion issues curtailed, there will have to be some overcorrection -- that is, sitting the occasional player who had a bad head hit but (somehow) did not get concussed.
EDIT: Thinking about this some, ignatius ... in a formal system and especially in professional sports, you would still want spotters at the stadium. However, their role would be different -- they wouldn't be there to tag the team physicians when they see something. They would be there to upload footage** to the wider remote network of observers nationwide (or even worldwide -- who's to say a neurologist in Australia can't make a call on someone on an NFL game?).
** - which could be 99% automated so that a non-techie spotter could just press a button to upload the last 60 seconds of game footage or whatever.
SwampDawg wrote:
I thought the doctors doing the evaluations were independent, not just the "spotters". If that isn't correct then that is the easy answer. The NFL has an independent doctor assigned to each game to evaluate head injuries. Their decision is final, no input from the team, player or team medical staff.
zamboni wrote:
In a perfect world, that's probably the case. But the reality is I'm sure teams have some influence on the process. And most football players are wired to get out there and play as long as they are permitted to - they don't want to disappoint their teammates or themselves. It's probably not the way things should be, but it's the reality.
Doug B wrote:
Going by the informative link ignatius provided, it seems unclear whether or not the evaluator for a given injury is independent of the team -- looks like a sometimes-yes-sometimes-no thing:
Using the injury video review system’s monitor and recording equipment to monitor, the ATC spotter watches and reviews network footage of the game. If the ATC spotter observes a play that may have resulted in a concussion or injury on the field, he or she will call that team’s bench area to speak with a credentialed team physician or the head athletic trainer to relay the details of the potential injury he or she observed. The spotter will confirm the player’s jersey number and the situation in which the injury may have occurred.
The ATC spotter must speak directly to the team physician, unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant, or head athletic trainer when reviewing a potential injury. They cannot relay the information to other team staff assigned to answer the bench phones.
Additionally -- I would question whether or not someone standing on a team's sideline throughout a game (even someone not in pay of the league or team) can 100% of the time reliably maintain independence. Not talking about someone "cheating" for the team -- thinking more about getting caught in the moment, believing a concussed player's pleadings that he's really OK, leaning the wrong way on a borderline call, etc.
SwampDawg wrote:
There are only 16 games a week, the refs are mostly lawyers, doctors, etc that they fly around the country to do games. You can't tell me they can't find 16 head specialist and fly one into each game. This very much reminds me in racing IndyCar, NHRA and F1 all have their own safety teams that include doctors, EMT's, fire fighters, equipment, etc that they transport and take to each race and respond to all accidents and need to clear drivers. Nascar for years fought that and used local EMT's and doctors becasue they "understood" each track better. The real reason was cost and they didn't want the liability.
Doug B wrote (consider this the OP):
Just thinking out loud here ...
This might be a dumb idea, but could there be something like a "Looked bad on TV" rule? Basically, someone completely unaffiliated with the teams and the league would make judgment calls on "probable concussion?" from afar, using strictly the TV coverage. Not too different from what us fans do on Twitter -- though hopefully, people with credentials like those of Dr. David Chao (for example) would be employed.
One potentially tricky part is that the people doing these judgments would have to be volunteers -- they could not have a financial relationship with the league or individual teams. Maybe it would be kind of a non-profit that could perform this service for multiple pro sports leagues, college football, etc. It would be completely electronic-information based. You wouldn't need a "concussion reviewer" at each stadium, arena, or rink. What you would need is a system -- unofficial or official -- of getting footage of a bad-looking head hit over to a remote concussion reviewer. Twitter reacts to probable concussions in near-real time -- surely 2022's information technology can be harnessed into a more formal framework?
ignatiusjreilly wrote:
Isn't that what the current "spotter" system is?
Doug B wrote:
Two main differences:
1) The current spotters are actually at the stadiums.
2) The current spotters don't themselves make the "sit 'em" calls -- their role is limited to alerting team physicians on the sidelines to a potential head injury.
What I'm conceiving of basically takes team physicians and sideline staff out of the equation. No taking/passing sideline concussion tests. No mystery visits to the medical tent. None of that.
That's why I call it the "looked bad on TV" rule. If the league really, really, REALLY wants concussion issues curtailed, there will have to be some overcorrection -- that is, sitting the occasional player who had a bad head hit but (somehow) did not get concussed.
EDIT: Thinking about this some, ignatius ... in a formal system and especially in professional sports, you would still want spotters at the stadium. However, their role would be different -- they wouldn't be there to tag the team physicians when they see something. They would be there to upload footage** to the wider remote network of observers nationwide (or even worldwide -- who's to say a neurologist in Australia can't make a call on someone on an NFL game?).
** - which could be 99% automated so that a non-techie spotter could just press a button to upload the last 60 seconds of game footage or whatever.
SwampDawg wrote:
I thought the doctors doing the evaluations were independent, not just the "spotters". If that isn't correct then that is the easy answer. The NFL has an independent doctor assigned to each game to evaluate head injuries. Their decision is final, no input from the team, player or team medical staff.
zamboni wrote:
In a perfect world, that's probably the case. But the reality is I'm sure teams have some influence on the process. And most football players are wired to get out there and play as long as they are permitted to - they don't want to disappoint their teammates or themselves. It's probably not the way things should be, but it's the reality.
Doug B wrote:
Going by the informative link ignatius provided, it seems unclear whether or not the evaluator for a given injury is independent of the team -- looks like a sometimes-yes-sometimes-no thing:
Using the injury video review system’s monitor and recording equipment to monitor, the ATC spotter watches and reviews network footage of the game. If the ATC spotter observes a play that may have resulted in a concussion or injury on the field, he or she will call that team’s bench area to speak with a credentialed team physician or the head athletic trainer to relay the details of the potential injury he or she observed. The spotter will confirm the player’s jersey number and the situation in which the injury may have occurred.
The ATC spotter must speak directly to the team physician, unaffiliated neurotrauma consultant, or head athletic trainer when reviewing a potential injury. They cannot relay the information to other team staff assigned to answer the bench phones.
Additionally -- I would question whether or not someone standing on a team's sideline throughout a game (even someone not in pay of the league or team) can 100% of the time reliably maintain independence. Not talking about someone "cheating" for the team -- thinking more about getting caught in the moment, believing a concussed player's pleadings that he's really OK, leaning the wrong way on a borderline call, etc.
SwampDawg wrote:
There are only 16 games a week, the refs are mostly lawyers, doctors, etc that they fly around the country to do games. You can't tell me they can't find 16 head specialist and fly one into each game. This very much reminds me in racing IndyCar, NHRA and F1 all have their own safety teams that include doctors, EMT's, fire fighters, equipment, etc that they transport and take to each race and respond to all accidents and need to clear drivers. Nascar for years fought that and used local EMT's and doctors becasue they "understood" each track better. The real reason was cost and they didn't want the liability.
