Pro Football Hall of Fame Class of 2018: Semifinalists (1 Viewer)

[Long Ball Larry]

I would ask that question the other way around.

the symmetric property of equality is strong with this one.

 

[flapgreen]

6. Brian Urlacher, certainly deserves it. I have Urlacher 5th among ILB of the last 40 years, behind Lewis, Singletary, Thomas, and Willis

Urlacher was the best coverage lb in history and far better than Singletary. Singletary wasn't even the best lb on his own team. And I love Singletary. There's no way Willis makes it in. Thomas won't make it in either.  Only one on that list you could say was possibly better was Lewis but that's a hard comparison because they were a different type of LB

 

[travdogg]

Urlacher was the best coverage lb in history and far better than Singletary. Singletary wasn't even the best lb on his own team. And I love Singletary. There's no way Willis makes it in. Thomas won't make it in either.  Only one on that list you could say was possibly better was Lewis but that's a hard comparison because they were a different type of LB

I don't disagree about Urlacher's coverage ability. 

Are you saying Singletary wasn't the best Bears LB of all time, or of the teams he was on? If the latter, are you suggesting Wilbur Marshall was? Because that seems just like suggesting Lance Briggs was better than Urlacher.

I highly doubt Willis makes it in, which is a shame, because he was arguably better than any of those guys, if only for a short time. Like the Terrell Davis of LBs. I don't get how Zach Thomas isn't already in, but if he isn't by now, his chances are pretty low as he hasn't been close even.

 

[travdogg]

I won't argue much against your main point, except to ask so what? 

But the bolded, "inflated statistics" is BS IMO.  His stats are not inflated, he was really good for 14 years (2 years not so much). 

But no, he's not a HOFer.

You are missing my point. Maybe inflated was the wrong word, I'm not suggesting Bruce didn't earn his numbers, he did as does everyone. I'm suggesting that the value placed on them isn't equal to where they are ranked. 

His career numbers look great because he was a starting WR for 16 years, not because he was an all time great, and I gave several other examples of that to illustrate that point. Its far from BS.

 

[Tau837]

Barber and Coryell didn't make the cut (which is a travesty for Coryell), so I have to pick 2 from my next tier. I will double up at WR and LB and go with this class:

• Brian Dawkins
  
• Ray Lewis
  
• Randy Moss
  
• Terrell Owens
  
• Brian Urlacher
  
• Bobby Beathard - contributor
  
• Jerry Kramer - senior nominee
  

 

[-OZ-]

You are missing my point. Maybe inflated was the wrong word, I'm not suggesting Bruce didn't earn his numbers, he did as does everyone. I'm suggesting that the value placed on them isn't equal to where they are ranked. 

His career numbers look great because he was a starting WR for 16 years, not because he was an all time great, and I gave several other examples of that to illustrate that point. Its far from BS.

I got your point. You value longevity less than top years. If you look at careers on an x and y chart, x being number of elite years, y being number of quality years, you place far less value on y than x. That's fine, i think we all do to some extent. But I think you're devaluing longevity more than I do.

 

[Tau837]

Urlacher was the best coverage lb in history and far better than Singletary. Singletary wasn't even the best lb on his own team. And I love Singletary. There's no way Willis makes it in. Thomas won't make it in either.  Only one on that list you could say was possibly better was Lewis but that's a hard comparison because they were a different type of LB

The bolded statements are absurd.

Singletary is one of 7 players who won Defensive MVP two or more times. Singletary and Lewis are the only MLBs in that group, and both won twice.

Singletary is one of 24 players (at all positions) who were selected as 1st team All Pro 7 or more times. Joe Schmidt, Bill George, Singletary, and Lewis are the only MLBs in that group. Schmidt and George each were selected 8 times, but they also played in the 1950s and 1960s, when there were many fewer teams, meaning there was less competition for awards. Singletary and Lewis each were selected 7 times.

Singletary is tied for #28 in career weighted Approximate Value (at all positions). Lewis and Seau are the only MLBs ranked higher.

Singletary was the leader of arguably the greatest defense of all time and was a key player in the Bears' only Super Bowl championship.

Urlacher was great, and he is a deserving Hall of Famer. But his accomplishments don't come close to Singletary's.

 

[Sebowski]

Jacoby not getting in is a joke. Or a crime. It's a jrime. This guy sums it up:

@chrishayre

-He won three rings blocking for three different QBs on arguably the best O-line in history.

-Forty percent of his snaps came against HOFers, including LT and Reggie White.

What else do you have to do? 

 

[-OZ-]

Jacoby not getting in is a joke. Or a crime. It's a jrime. This guy sums it up:

@chrishayre

-He won three rings blocking for three different QBs on arguably the best O-line in history.

-Forty percent of his snaps came against HOFers, including LT and Reggie White.

What else do you have to do? 

I'm not arguing against this stat, although it seems odd. But how do they show that?

 

[flapgreen]

I don't disagree about Urlacher's coverage ability. 

Are you saying Singletary wasn't the best Bears LB of all time, or of the teams he was on? If the latter, are you suggesting Wilbur Marshall was? Because that seems just like suggesting Lance Briggs was better than Urlacher.

I highly doubt Willis makes it in, which is a shame, because he was arguably better than any of those guys, if only for a short time. Like the Terrell Davis of LBs. I don't get how Zach Thomas isn't already in, but if he isn't by now, his chances are pretty low as he hasn't been close even.

If you're a Bears fan and watched them over the years, it's nothing like comparing Briggs to Urlacher.   I'm not going to list all 4 guys statistics on here but Wilbur has more It's, sacks, and forced fumbles than any of the other 3 guys.  Also won 2 Super Bowls. It's not a knock on Singletary. He was an amazing LB.  But Wilbur was Urlacher before there was Urlacher and has better statistics, outside of total tackles, than Urlacher or Singletary. 

 

[flapgreen]

The bolded statements are absurd.

Singletary is one of 7 players who won Defensive MVP two or more times. Singletary and Lewis are the only MLBs in that group, and both won twice.

Singletary is one of 24 players (at all positions) who were selected as 1st team All Pro 7 or more times. Joe Schmidt, Bill George, Singletary, and Lewis are the only MLBs in that group. Schmidt and George each were selected 8 times, but they also played in the 1950s and 1960s, when there were many fewer teams, meaning there was less competition for awards. Singletary and Lewis each were selected 7 times.

Singletary is tied for #28 in career weighted Approximate Value (at all positions). Lewis and Seau are the only MLBs ranked higher.

Singletary was the leader of arguably the greatest defense of all time and was a key player in the Bears' only Super Bowl championship.

Urlacher was great, and he is a deserving Hall of Famer. But his accomplishments don't come close to Singletary's.

So you think Singletary was a "key player"  in the Bears defense but Marshall wasn't?  Actually go back and compare the games for Marshall and Singletary in just the NFC championship and Super Bowl in 85.   You saying it's absurd shows me you didn't watch them all play and haven't bothered even comparing their stats. This is coming from a lifelong Bears fan. 

 

[flapgreen]

Not to mention the Redskins gave up 2 first round picks for Marshall, a linebacker, and he went on to win defensive player of the year and another Super Bowl.  Marshall is the forgotten man from that defense and in his career in total, which makes me sad. He deserves to be in. 

 

[Tau837]

So you think Singletary was a "key player"  in the Bears defense but Marshall wasn't?  Actually go back and compare the games for Marshall and Singletary in just the NFC championship and Super Bowl in 85.   You saying it's absurd shows me you didn't watch them all play and haven't bothered even comparing their stats. This is coming from a lifelong Bears fan. 

I was born in Chicago and visited there regularly through the 1980s. The Bears were my favorite team until the early 1990s, and I watched them play all the time.

I didn't say Marshall wasn't a key player, please don't put words in my mouth. Singletary was the best player on that defense, period. That's why he was NFL DPOY that season.

You may not know this, but comparing stats for defensive players who play different positions is not a fully comprehensive way to compare them. But here is a stat for you - Approximate Value.

• 1985 AV: Singletary 17, Marshall 9
  
• Career AV (both played exactly 179 career games): Singletary 159, Marshall 120
  

You're wrong.  

 

[Tau837]

Not to mention the Redskins gave up 2 first round picks for Marshall, a linebacker, and he went on to win defensive player of the year and another Super Bowl.  Marshall is the forgotten man from that defense and in his career in total, which makes me sad. He deserves to be in. 

He won NFC DPOY in 1992, but Cortez Kennedy was NFL DPOY. Marshall went to 3 Pro Bowls and was 1st team All Pro 2 times. He was a great player, but you are significantly overrating him.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I'm not arguing against this stat, although it seems odd. But how do they show that?

Yeah, I'm calling BS on that one.  If he played 16 games every season then only four could be against those two.  If he's missing games then over the course of a career would seem odd he always played NY and Phily but missed several games per year against other teams.  

Plus Jacoby had 4 full years of snaps before White entered the league.

 

[Arodin]

To be fair, it said HoFers including those two.  These guys would also count toward the total (#s in parentheses are seasons of overlap with Jacoby's career):

Elvin Bethea (DE) 1968-1983 (3 years)

Curley Culp 1968-1981 (1 year)

Fred Dean (DE) 1975-1985 (4 years)

Richard Dent 1983-1997 (9 years)

Chris Doleman (DE, LB) 1985-1999 (8 years)

Joe Greene (DT) 1969-1981 (1 year)

Kevin Greene (LB/DE) 1985-1999 (8 years)

Charles Haley 1986-1996; 1999 (7 years)

Dan Hampton (DT-DE) 1979-1990 (9 years)

Claude Humphrey 1968-1981 (1 year)

Cortez Kennedy (DT) 1990-2000 (4 years)

Howie Long (DE) 1981-1993 (1 year)

Alan Page (DT) 1967-1981 (1 year)

John Randle 1990-2003 (4 years)

Lee Roy Selmon (DE) 1976-1984 (3 years)

Bruce Smith 1985-2003 (8 years)

Michael Strahan 1993-2007 (1 year)

Randy White (DT) 1975-1988 (8 years)

Reggie White (DT-DE) 1985-1998, 2000 (8 years)

Jack Youngblood (DE) 1971-1984 (3 years)

I didn't try to go deeper to count games vs. the Redskins, but just adding Haley to the list accounts for two more games per year.

Also, these are just Defensive Line, and the original stat includes edge linebackers like LT.  That adds yet more.

My actual conclusion here is that likely almost any journeyman starter you pick could be awarded a similar claim to fame as far as % of games in which a Hall of Fame defender was on the other side of the field.  Not to say Jacoby is undeserving, just that this particular statistic is probably meaningless.

 

[Sebowski]

Yeah, I'm calling BS on that one.  If he played 16 games every season then only four could be against those two.  If he's missing games then over the course of a career would seem odd he always played NY and Phily but missed several games per year against other teams.  

Plus Jacoby had 4 full years of snaps before White entered the league.

He said 40% against HoFers that include LT and White. Not exclusive to those 2. It does seem high though. Have to count games against those 80s Bears teams. Randy White twice a year for a bit. Don’t forget playoff games. Those are more snaps against HoFers. Point is he excelled against the best and won three rings doing it. Like the rest of the post said: different QBs and RBs. Always the Hogs and always success. Jacoby deserves the jacket.

 

[-OZ-]

He said 40% against HoFers that include LT and White. Not exclusive to those 2. It does seem high though. Have to count games against those 80s Bears teams. Randy White twice a year for a bit. Don’t forget playoff games. Those are more snaps against HoFers. Point is he excelled against the best and won three rings doing it. Like the rest of the post said: different QBs and RBs. Always the Hogs and always success. Jacoby deserves the jacket.

Sure. But was he actually lined up against most of those guys?

 

[Bri]

Jacoby not getting in is a joke. Or a crime. It's a jrime. This guy sums it up:

@chrishayre

-He won three rings blocking for three different QBs on arguably the best O-line in history.

-Forty percent of his snaps came against HOFers, including LT and Reggie White.

What else do you have to do? 

4 of 16 games is 25%.

Jacoby wasn't special like the interior. Have you looked at the gamelogs? Faa if we're making wild arguments, why not that Taylor and White got in because of him? Guy allowed 3 sacks with regularity to them. He's not on the same level as Anthony Munoz and that's his peer. 

Being a member of the Hogs is not a prerequisite to getting in the HOF, just the Redskins team HOF. In NFL circles it's more of a cool side note. 

Will his speech involve us cheering for letting LT by him to crush Theisman? 

The h-back was Joe Gibbs creation to stop LT and then White. The tackle was not sufficient, the TE help was humorous, so he added a blocker a step behind/caddy corner to the line. Would we even have had an h-back if Anthony Munoz was on the Redskins?

What's next? We rewarding someone for letting Strahan get a zillion sacks? Bruce Smith? Cmon now with this stuff

This hear will shush you

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/T/TaylLa00/gamelog/

No need to post White's

 

[Sebowski]

Will his speech involve us cheering for letting LT by him to crush Theisman? 

He wasn't in on that play. Shows me all I need to know about your take. 

 

[Bri]

Jacoby's next chance is as a senior nominee. Four linemen advanced to final 10, not him. 

 

[Bri]

Champ, Tony G and Ed Reed could all be first timers next year. I'm not sure how Water's is viewed. IIRC a lot of people here are fans of his. I see six pro bowls and two 1st team all pro. In the HOF world, that seems somewhat regular. 

 

[Sebowski]

So Reed will keep Lynch out for for another year.