PVS: Post Vaccination Syndrome (2 Viewers)

[Max Power]

The bigger question when (not if) mandating vaccines for DoD personnel (active duty or reserve) is not an easy one. One would think that a virus that reaches the stage of a global pandemic would warrant such mandatory actions, but do we want to make mandates around vaccines that don't have full FDA approval?

I would vote absolutely not. Especially after seeing the military cohort was at the least risk of serious illness vs any other one.

 

[Harry Manback]

The bigger question when (not if) mandating vaccines for DoD personnel (active duty or reserve) is not an easy one. One would think that a virus that reaches the stage of a global pandemic would warrant such mandatory actions, but do we want to make mandates around vaccines that don't have full FDA approval?

I would vote absolutely not. Especially after seeing the military cohort was at the least risk of serious illness vs any other one.

I don’t think Covid vaccines are the only one being referenced.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The bigger question when (not if) mandating vaccines for DoD personnel (active duty or reserve) is not an easy one. One would think that a virus that reaches the stage of a global pandemic would warrant such mandatory actions, but do we want to make mandates around vaccines that don't have full FDA approval?

That's a pretty good question. It's a political one, but it's a good question. The answer to this has nothing to do with the vaccine or it's application. The approval process is pretty daunting for no real reason other than time and bureaucracy. There is no medical reason these things should take as long as they do. Politicians have done a good job convincing people that the duration is because of "safety" but that's not true. It seems logical to me that when you get to EAU status, you should be good. At that point there is no meaningful difference when it comes to the vaccine itself.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The problem with the mandate was mainly that it forced people into taking an EUA product. The whole Comirnaty (FDA Approved) angle was bogus from a legal perspective.

The formulas were EXACTLY the same. This is a political talking point that I don't believe is allowed around here.

They were legally distinct. Same formula yes. But Pfizer could not apply to the comirnaty label to any vial produced pre FDA approval. There were already millions of vials produced that hadn't been used yet, so that was there way around it. Its not political, its how they covered their tracks legally. Ultimately it made the DoD version of the mandate illegal.

Take a poll and see how many people actually know what you're talking about besides me. This was far from "the problem" with the mandate. It didn't matter from a pragmatic and/or practical matter. I do agree it was a legal technicality that made absolutely no difference in terms of healthcare. If this isn't political, I don't know what is.

Policy isn't inherently political. Unless you're of the belief that the mandate was politically motivated.

It was public health gaslighting is what it was. MSM was in bed with big pharma to push their reality. Anyone who pointed out the legal distinction was outcasted and called crazy. Now that the dust has settled and people can see the game that was played, the trust has eroded. The government shouldn't be in the business of forcing or tricking people into taking an EUA product.

You'd have a point if the products were different. They weren't. This is a distinction without a difference from a science perspective. If people have a problem with the judicial side of it, fine, go have that argument as a philosophy (Z seems to be doing that in his question). Has no business being tied to a specific vaccine.

 

[Gally]

It seems logical to me that when you get to EAU status

What is the difference between "EAU" status and FDA Approval status? By that I mean what has to happen to take it from EAU to FDA approved if they are the same product?

 

[Sparky Polastri]

It seems logical to me that when you get to EAU status

What is the difference between "EAU" status and FDA Approval status? By that I mean what has to happen to take it from EAU to FDA approved if they are the same product?

In this specific case it was a matter of the FDA getting off it's *** and doing its job. They kept dragging their feet because they were getting political pressure. It was bizarro world. The President (to his credit) was pushing things along and cutting out the red tape. As I stated before, these groups have successfully convinced us that time is needed for "safety". They were getting pushback that it was moving "too fast". The reality is, the solution (the vaccines that went to market) were formulated in March and didn't change in any meaningful way prior to their rollout to the people. The solution was found within two months of the start. Yes, some of that time was required for testing, but not all of it. The rest was the FDA dragging its feet. They were an embarrassment IMO.

To move from one status to the other the FDA simply has to review the studies and data and stamp it approved. (10,000 foot explanation)

 

[Max Power]

The bigger question when (not if) mandating vaccines for DoD personnel (active duty or reserve) is not an easy one. One would think that a virus that reaches the stage of a global pandemic would warrant such mandatory actions, but do we want to make mandates around vaccines that don't have full FDA approval?

I would vote absolutely not. Especially after seeing the military cohort was at the least risk of serious illness vs any other one.

I don’t think Covid vaccines are the only one being referenced.

They also pushed the experimental Antrax vaccine in the 90/00s that resulted in the DoD getting its hand slapped for "informed consent". Which it doesn't appear they learned from.

 

[Max Power]

The problem with the mandate was mainly that it forced people into taking an EUA product. The whole Comirnaty (FDA Approved) angle was bogus from a legal perspective.

The formulas were EXACTLY the same. This is a political talking point that I don't believe is allowed around here.

They were legally distinct. Same formula yes. But Pfizer could not apply to the comirnaty label to any vial produced pre FDA approval. There were already millions of vials produced that hadn't been used yet, so that was there way around it. Its not political, its how they covered their tracks legally. Ultimately it made the DoD version of the mandate illegal.

Take a poll and see how many people actually know what you're talking about besides me. This was far from "the problem" with the mandate. It didn't matter from a pragmatic and/or practical matter. I do agree it was a legal technicality that made absolutely no difference in terms of healthcare. If this isn't political, I don't know what is.

Policy isn't inherently political. Unless you're of the belief that the mandate was politically motivated.

It was public health gaslighting is what it was. MSM was in bed with big pharma to push their reality. Anyone who pointed out the legal distinction was outcasted and called crazy. Now that the dust has settled and people can see the game that was played, the trust has eroded. The government shouldn't be in the business of forcing or tricking people into taking an EUA product.

You'd have a point if the products were different. They weren't. This is a distinction without a difference from a science perspective. If people have a problem with the judicial side of it, fine, go have that argument as a philosophy (Z seems to be doing that in his question). Has no business being tied to a specific vaccine.

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead. That's the problem.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

 

[Max Power]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they mislead? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

 

[Harry Manback]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they mislead? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

I mean, if you want to make the assumption the average American doesn't know what EUA status is, isn't capable or willing to learn what it means, then maybe you could argue they were misled. I would accept such an argument.

 

[CGRdrJoe]

The bigger question when (not if) mandating vaccines for DoD personnel (active duty or reserve) is not an easy one. One would think that a virus that reaches the stage of a global pandemic would warrant such mandatory actions, but do we want to make mandates around vaccines that don't have full FDA approval?

It was mandated for all of us, those that refused were kicked out but now they are being asked to come back in.

I have to admit, I came in here because I thought this was a thread about post vacation syndrome which I'm currently suffering from after spending last week in Hawaii. Maybe all the vaccines in my system has caused my inability to process what I read, or it's probably the 3 big chickens I drank last night.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they misled? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

I mean, if you want to make the assumption the average American doesn't know what EUA status is, isn't capable or willing to learn what it means, then maybe you could argue they were misled. I would accept such an argument.

That's not being misled. That's being uninformed.

 

[Joe Schmo]

1

The bigger question when (not if) mandating vaccines for DoD personnel (active duty or reserve) is not an easy one. One would think that a virus that reaches the stage of a global pandemic would warrant such mandatory actions, but do we want to make mandates around vaccines that don't have full FDA approval?

It was mandated for all of us, those that refused were kicked out but now they are being asked to come back in.

I have to admit, I came in here because I thought this was a thread about post vacation syndrome which I'm currently suffering from after spending last week in Hawaii. Maybe all the vaccines in my system has caused my inability to process what I read, or it's probably the 3 big chickens I drank last night.

Had to look this up, it's definitely the 3 big chickens.

 

[Max Power]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they mislead? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

Because the media pushed Comirnaty was FDA approved and portrayed anyone getting the Pfizer vaccine at that point was getting the FDA approved Comirnaty.

 

[Max Power]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they misled? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

I mean, if you want to make the assumption the average American doesn't know what EUA status is, isn't capable or willing to learn what it means, then maybe you could argue they were misled. I would accept such an argument.

That's not being misled. That's being uninformed.

No the Media was actively doing its part to say they were the same thing.

 

[uwillbsoon]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they misled? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

I mean, if you want to make the assumption the average American doesn't know what EUA status is, isn't capable or willing to learn what it means, then maybe you could argue they were misled. I would accept such an argument.

That's not being misled. That's being uninformed.

No the Media was actively doing its part to say they were the same thing.

Do you have an example?

 

[Max Power]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they misled? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

I mean, if you want to make the assumption the average American doesn't know what EUA status is, isn't capable or willing to learn what it means, then maybe you could argue they were misled. I would accept such an argument.

That's not being misled. That's being uninformed.

No the Media was actively doing its part to say they were the same thing.

Do you have an example?

A quick google will show you the countless results.

Comirnaty. Get used to saying it, it's Pfizer's 'brand name' for the COVID vaccine

Once a drug gets FDA approval, the drug can be given a brand name.

www.wfmynews2.com

Yes, Comirnaty and the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine are the same

FDA-approved Comirnaty has the same formulation as the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine that was previously authorized for emergency use in the U.S.

www.wcnc.com

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/coronavirus/article253765538.html

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they mislead? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

Because the media pushed Comirnaty was FDA approved and portrayed anyone getting the Pfizer vaccine at that point was getting the FDA approved Comirnaty.

Comirnaty IS FDA approved....full stop.

The FDA also made clear as did the NIH, NSF and all the vaccine companies that the vaccines were under EUA. If you had media that you feel was leading you astray, maybe stop consuming it? Dunno what to tell you there. I'm pretty confident saying you aren't all that informed if you're relying on media for your info. Stick to the experts. They were clear.

 

[Max Power]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they mislead? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

Because the media pushed Comirnaty was FDA approved and portrayed anyone getting the Pfizer vaccine at that point was getting the FDA approved Comirnaty.

Comirnaty IS FDA approved....full stop.

The FDA also made clear as did the NIH, NSF and all the vaccine companies that the vaccines were under EUA. If you had media that you feel was leading you astray, maybe stop consuming it? Dunno what to tell you there. I'm pretty confident saying you aren't all that informed if you're relying on media for your info. Stick to the experts. They were clear.

I understand Comirnaty was FDA approved. I never denied that. I'm telling you there was a media push to promote Pfizer-BioNtech vaccine as FDA approved. Its what the government was saying as well to enforce the mandates.

No, I'm pretty informed on the issue. I see what they did.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Again, the drugs are exactly the same and that's exactly what those articles are saying and what I'm saying. This conflation over what legal recourse one has if it's "approved" or "EUA" is a political topic and true for every single vaccine that comes out. It has NOTHING to do with these vaccines specifically or their safety. Its more along the lines of what Z Machine was asking above which is a significantly more honest path than this one.

 

[uwillbsoon]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they misled? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

I mean, if you want to make the assumption the average American doesn't know what EUA status is, isn't capable or willing to learn what it means, then maybe you could argue they were misled. I would accept such an argument.

That's not being misled. That's being uninformed.

No the Media was actively doing its part to say they were the same thing.

Do you have an example?

A quick google will show you the countless results.

Comirnaty. Get used to saying it, it's Pfizer's 'brand name' for the COVID vaccine

Once a drug gets FDA approval, the drug can be given a brand name.

www.wfmynews2.com

Yes, Comirnaty and the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine are the same

FDA-approved Comirnaty has the same formulation as the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine that was previously authorized for emergency use in the U.S.

www.wcnc.com

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/coronavirus/article253765538.html

I must be confused by what you're saying.

I didn't watch the vids, but the article posted says it was approved. And explains the difference and what that means. Very well.

 

[Max Power]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they misled? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

I mean, if you want to make the assumption the average American doesn't know what EUA status is, isn't capable or willing to learn what it means, then maybe you could argue they were misled. I would accept such an argument.

That's not being misled. That's being uninformed.

No the Media was actively doing its part to say they were the same thing.

Do you have an example?

A quick google will show you the countless results.

Comirnaty. Get used to saying it, it's Pfizer's 'brand name' for the COVID vaccine

Once a drug gets FDA approval, the drug can be given a brand name.

www.wfmynews2.com

Yes, Comirnaty and the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine are the same

FDA-approved Comirnaty has the same formulation as the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine that was previously authorized for emergency use in the U.S.

www.wcnc.com

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/coronavirus/article253765538.html

I must be confused by what you're saying.

I didn't watch the vids, but the article posted says it was approved. And explains the difference and what that means. Very well.

The original point is that the "legal distinction" made the government mandate illegal. The media downplaying the distinction was shady at best and now part of the reason people lost trust in public health.

 

[Harry Manback]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they misled? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

I mean, if you want to make the assumption the average American doesn't know what EUA status is, isn't capable or willing to learn what it means, then maybe you could argue they were misled. I would accept such an argument.

That's not being misled. That's being uninformed.

Oh I'm not saying it's a good argument, I'm just saying I believe most of America is unwilling or incapable of learning without being spoon fed information from "trusted sources" and this contributes to the feelings of being misled.

 

[Max Power]

Again, the drugs are exactly the same and that's exactly what those articles are saying and what I'm saying. This conflation over what legal recourse one has if it's "approved" or "EUA" is a political topic and true for every single vaccine that comes out. It has NOTHING to do with these vaccines specifically or their safety. Its more along the lines of what Z Machine was asking above which is a significantly more honest path than this one.

How is it political?

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they mislead? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

Because the media pushed Comirnaty was FDA approved and portrayed anyone getting the Pfizer vaccine at that point was getting the FDA approved Comirnaty.

Comirnaty IS FDA approved....full stop.

The FDA also made clear as did the NIH, NSF and all the vaccine companies that the vaccines were under EUA. If you had media that you feel was leading you astray, maybe stop consuming it? Dunno what to tell you there. I'm pretty confident saying you aren't all that informed if you're relying on media for your info. Stick to the experts. They were clear.

I understand Comirnaty was FDA approved. I never denied that. I'm telling you there was a media push to promote Pfizer-BioNtech vaccine as FDA approved. Its what the government was saying as well to enforce the mandates.

No, I'm pretty informed on the issue. I see what they did.

show me....I can give you hundreds of articles like this one making clear the point that the vaccines were not yet FDA approved. I have no idea what the government was telling you. I am not privy to internal communications you might have gotten, so that may be true but I want to stick to the original assertion.

https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/08/covid-vaccine-us-declined-pfizer-offer-for-more-doses-says-scott-gottlieb-.html

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Here's info from the govt on EUA for those that want to know what we are talking about:

Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines Explained

FDA explains the Emergency Use Authorization for Vaccines

www.fda.gov

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they misled? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

I mean, if you want to make the assumption the average American doesn't know what EUA status is, isn't capable or willing to learn what it means, then maybe you could argue they were misled. I would accept such an argument.

That's not being misled. That's being uninformed.

No the Media was actively doing its part to say they were the same thing.

Do you have an example?

A quick google will show you the countless results.

Comirnaty. Get used to saying it, it's Pfizer's 'brand name' for the COVID vaccine

Once a drug gets FDA approval, the drug can be given a brand name.

www.wfmynews2.com

Yes, Comirnaty and the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine are the same

FDA-approved Comirnaty has the same formulation as the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine that was previously authorized for emergency use in the U.S.

www.wcnc.com

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/coronavirus/article253765538.html

I must be confused by what you're saying.

I didn't watch the vids, but the article posted says it was approved. And explains the difference and what that means. Very well.

The original point is that the "legal distinction" made the government mandate illegal. The media downplaying the distinction was shady at best and now part of the reason people lost trust in public health.

The President overrode this with an EO which is within his power to do if national security is at risk. He overstepped by trying to make this apply to private sector as well and that part was struck down.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title10-section1107a&num=0&edition=prelim

 

[Max Power]

The consumer protections are different and people were mislead.

how?

Consumers injured by an FDA approved product have different resources and recourses vs consumers injured using an EUA product. The EUA consent limits the liability piece.

you didn't answer my question. how were they misled? it was made crystal clear time and time again that the vaccine consumption was under EUA status.

I mean, if you want to make the assumption the average American doesn't know what EUA status is, isn't capable or willing to learn what it means, then maybe you could argue they were misled. I would accept such an argument.

That's not being misled. That's being uninformed.

No the Media was actively doing its part to say they were the same thing.

Do you have an example?

A quick google will show you the countless results.

Comirnaty. Get used to saying it, it's Pfizer's 'brand name' for the COVID vaccine

Once a drug gets FDA approval, the drug can be given a brand name.

www.wfmynews2.com

Yes, Comirnaty and the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine are the same

FDA-approved Comirnaty has the same formulation as the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine that was previously authorized for emergency use in the U.S.

www.wcnc.com

https://www.thenewstribune.com/news/coronavirus/article253765538.html

I must be confused by what you're saying.

I didn't watch the vids, but the article posted says it was approved. And explains the difference and what that means. Very well.

The original point is that the "legal distinction" made the government mandate illegal. The media downplaying the distinction was shady at best and now part of the reason people lost trust in public health.

The President overrode this with an EO which is within his power to do if national security is at risk. He overstepped by trying to make this apply to private sector as well and that part was struck down.

https://uscode.house.gov/view.xhtml?req=granuleid:USC-prelim-title10-section1107a&num=0&edition=prelim

It didn't apply to federal civilians either.

 

[SFBayDuck]

3 big chickens I drank last night

In this economy?

 

[CGRdrJoe]

3 big chickens I drank last night

In this economy?

I know right? on the plus side the bartender was pouring pints instead of 10 oz pours, on second thought maybe that's a minus

 

[LawFitz]

Long time lurker, probably over 20 years, first time posting. I hesitated to write this since it'll probably get a less than popular reception and I apologize for the long post. I also hoped to post at the beginning of the conversation, but here it is. Since I have a little experience in this topic I thought I would share. I was also enrolled in the LISTEN study through Yale that this research is based on, though i didn't supply any samples and wasn't a direct participant other than providing information.

In December of 2021 I received my 3rd moderna vaccine and what happened after that was something I would have never believed if it didn't happen to me, so i fully understand those that don't/can't believe this is a real thing.

The day after the booster I started to experience an elevated HR and a tightness in my back which I chalked up to a normal reaction, but after 4 days of this I decided I could "workout" any lingering effects and proceeded to go for an easy ride on my bike trainer. After 30 mins or so I stopped took a shower and sat on the couch. Looking at my Garmin watch my HR was sitting between 110 and 130 an hour later and I was feeling awful. Afraid I was having a heart attack I had my wife drive me to the ER and was immediately brought into a room with suspected afib. My HR would swing from 110 to 150 with even the slightest movement. I passed the tests I was given to rule out a heart attack, negative for covid, and was given intravenous ativan as this was a suspected anxiety attack. Other than making me drowsy this didn't touch the HR issues and I was sent on my way to see my PCP the following week. Lots of tests, no solutions and things went from bad to worse

I'm fit and in shape, lift weights, bike, play sports, never a serious health issue in my 45+ years on this earth but over the next few months went from 180lbs to 150lbs, i could barely walk around the block after completing an untra endurance event just 3 months earlier, had horrible insomnia, unable to fall asleep or stay asleep and would experience hypnic jerks when I could often the entire night for close to two years, like 2-3 days a week jerk awake ALL NIGHT just before falling asleep and then crash hard for a night then rinse repeat. This is a hell you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. I developed POTS, tachycardia, reduced vision in my right eye, neuropathy, blood pooling, high blood pressure, tinnitus, mood issues, horrible brain fog which was more like dementia than just groggy, palpitations. There was more, but this is probably enough to get the idea.

Local doctors were pretty much clueless as to what to do and what tests to provide. I did have an in-person zoom call with everyone's favorite researcher Dr Bruce Patterson (if you know you know), but his methods offered little help and I'll leave it at that. I did get a battery of tests from him that showed irregular Cytokine numbers. Other researchers offered tests like a TAT (thrombin antithrombin) to look for irregular clotting since normal tests such as a d-dimer weren't showing much. My TAT was literally off quest diagnostics chart, which I'm told isn't so great. Mt Sinai was doing research into this for long covid aswell as PVS and confirmed the presence of irregular fibrinogen clotting. Dr David Putrino headed that research if there's interest in that.

Yada yada long story short I fought this novel illness for 3 years before it finally resolved for the most part. I'm not 100%, but i would say I'm 99%. A few things linger, but i live normal again. The worst thing post recovery has been recurring shingles when i overdue it physically or get stressed.

I'm not posting this to change anyone's mind, but rather to give a first hand account of what happens in one of these PVS situations. Essentially the vaccine game me an extreme case of long covid, so anyone with any experience themselves or an acquaintance that's exactly what the PVS is like. If anyone has any questions or concerns I can try and answer what I can. I won't go into anymore details and waste time if not. If this isn't welcome, believe me, I get it. The only thing worse than the hell this put me through physically is the publics reaction and even worse friends and family. Getting a novel illness, a novel illness that's politically uncomfortable and nobody understands medically is an interesting experience.

I'll also add I'm in no way antivax. I understand the misinformation that comes from both sides of the argument aswell. I think for pretty much everyone they seem to work as advertised, but I'm not qualified to offer any more than an opinion in that regard. I did get 3 moderna after all, but for me they did not. AMA.

Thanks for sharing. Accounts like yours are more common than people think. Many have been attributed to Long Covid - perhaps rightfully in some/many cases, perhaps not.

I'm really glad to read that you seem to have your symptoms mostly under control. What treatment protocols did you employ that you think might have aided your recovery?

 

[LawFitz]

Re: some of the posts upthread...

- I have been insanely busy the last week or so. Have had some free time to lurk, read and add emojis to posts, but no time to thoughtfully address with words until now.

- The OP link provides commentary regarding (and a direct link to) the LISTEN study, which shows striking similarities between PVS and Long Covid.

"Post-acute conditions following COVID-19 vaccination have been reported for multiple vaccine platforms including mRNA and adenoviral-vectored vaccines. We observed that the general health status of the PVS participants was far below the general US population average"

"A large fraction of individuals reported the onset of symptoms to be as early as within one day of COVID19 vaccination."

"Most notably, we found elevated levels of spike (S1 and full length S) in circulation up to 709 days after vaccination among a subset with PVS, even in those with no evidence of detectable SARS-CoV-2 infection."

"Given the striking similarities between long COVID and PVS symptoms, there has been speculation regarding the potential causal role of the persistent presence of spike protein driving the chronic symptoms. Additionally, a recent study has shown spike protein binding to fibrin resulting in inflammation ex vivo and neuropathy in animal experiments. S1 subunit is sufficient to cause formation of trypsin-resistant fibrin clots when added to plasma from healthy individuals. The persistent presence of S1 and the full-length spike protein across multiple long COVID cohorts lends further support to this hypothesis."

- The Covid vaxxes used in the US were novel compared to all earlier vaccines, namely that both the mRNA (Pfizer, Moderna) and DNA-vector (J&J) variants all reprogrammed human body genetics to induce our own cells to produce Spike proteins, which we now know to be cytotoxic. We were told the Spike production/circulation would be would limited both in scope/scale (to the injection site) and temporally (for a short period of time), both of which have proven untrue in the years since. This is VERY different technology compared to traditional vaccines.

- The definition of the term vaccine changed during the Covid era, per Miriam Webster,

From:

a preparation of killed microorganisms, living attenuated organisms, or living fully virulent organisms that is administered to produce or artificially increase immunity to a particular disease

To:

a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease: such as
a. an antigenic preparation of a typically inactivated or attenuated (see attenuated sense 2) pathogenic agent (such as a bacterium or virus) or one of its components or products (such as a protein or toxin)
b. a preparation of genetic material (such as a strand of synthesized messenger RNA) that is used by the cells of the body to produce an antigenic substance (such as a fragment of virus spike protein)

 

[TheAristocrat]

Ok

 

[The Gator]

What a coincidence

 

[dkp993]

In the vain of @The Longtime Lurker…. At the age of 48 I had an AFIB attack which is incredibly rare for someone of my age. It’s now something I will likely have to live with. To be clear I am not attributing this to the vaccine, there’s no way for me to know that, it very well could just be bad genetic luck. But with all the stories I can’t outright dismiss it either.

 

[BobbyLayne]

The bigger question when (not if) mandating vaccines for DoD personnel (active duty or reserve) is not an easy one. One would think that a virus that reaches the stage of a global pandemic would warrant such mandatory actions, but do we want to make mandates around vaccines that don't have full FDA approval?

It was mandated for all of us, those that refused were kicked out

Yeah, but that’s not a new thing, brother. The 17 vaccines DoD gives to recruits today are the same I got back in the early 80s when I served. As the old joke goes, when you are active duty, your body belongs to the U.S. Government.

FYI - the 17 vaccines:

mandatory:

• Adenovirus
• Hepatitis A
• Hepatitis B
• Influenza
• Measles, mumps, rubella
• Meningococcal
• Poliovirus
• Tetanus-Diphtheria
• Varicella

may be required - based on risk, occupation, & area of deployment

• Anthrax
• Haemophilus influenzae type B
• Japanese encephalitis
• Pneumococcal
• Rabies
• Smallpox
• Typhoid fever
• Yellow fever

(you get most of them concurrently, during the same week of basic training, which makes basically makes everyone in the company dopesick for 1-2 weeks)

Folks can request a waiver based on health, administrative or religious grounds. These exemptions - decided ICB - can be temporary or permanent.

Covid-19 was determined to be mandatory, but that’s not a unique designation.

 

[uwillbsoon]

Re: some of the posts upthread...

- I have been insanely busy the last week or so. Have had some free time to lurk, read and add emojis to posts, but no time to thoughtfully address with words until now.

- The OP link provides commentary regarding (and a direct link to) the LISTEN study, which shows striking similarities between PVS and Long Covid.

"Post-acute conditions following COVID-19 vaccination have been reported for multiple vaccine platforms including mRNA and adenoviral-vectored vaccines. We observed that the general health status of the PVS participants was far below the general US population average"

"A large fraction of individuals reported the onset of symptoms to be as early as within one day of COVID19 vaccination."

"Most notably, we found elevated levels of spike (S1 and full length S) in circulation up to 709 days after vaccination among a subset with PVS, even in those with no evidence of detectable SARS-CoV-2 infection."

"Given the striking similarities between long COVID and PVS symptoms, there has been speculation regarding the potential causal role of the persistent presence of spike protein driving the chronic symptoms. Additionally, a recent study has shown spike protein binding to fibrin resulting in inflammation ex vivo and neuropathy in animal experiments. S1 subunit is sufficient to cause formation of trypsin-resistant fibrin clots when added to plasma from healthy individuals. The persistent presence of S1 and the full-length spike protein across multiple long COVID cohorts lends further support to this hypothesis."

- The Covid vaxxes used in the US were novel compared to all earlier vaccines, namely that both the mRNA (Pfizer, Moderna) and DNA-vector (J&J) variants all reprogrammed human body genetics to induce our own cells to produce Spike proteins, which we now know to be cytotoxic. We were told the Spike production/circulation would be would limited both in scope/scale (to the injection site) and temporally (for a short period of time), both of which have proven untrue in the years since. This is VERY different technology compared to traditional vaccines.

- The definition of the term vaccine changed during the Covid era, per Miriam Webster,

From:

a preparation of killed microorganisms, living attenuated organisms, or living fully virulent organisms that is administered to produce or artificially increase immunity to a particular disease

To:

a preparation that is administered (as by injection) to stimulate the body's immune response against a specific infectious agent or disease: such as
a. an antigenic preparation of a typically inactivated or attenuated (see attenuated sense 2) pathogenic agent (such as a bacterium or virus) or one of its components or products (such as a protein or toxin)
b. a preparation of genetic material (such as a strand of synthesized messenger RNA) that is used by the cells of the body to produce an antigenic substance (such as a fragment of virus spike protein)

The definition changed because a new form of vaccine was introduced? Would you expect it to stay the same?

 

[CGRdrJoe]

The bigger question when (not if) mandating vaccines for DoD personnel (active duty or reserve) is not an easy one. One would think that a virus that reaches the stage of a global pandemic would warrant such mandatory actions, but do we want to make mandates around vaccines that don't have full FDA approval?

It was mandated for all of us, those that refused were kicked out

Yeah, but that’s not a new thing, brother. The 17 vaccines DoD gives to recruits today are the same I got back in the early 80s when I served. As the old joke goes, when you are active duty, your body belongs to the U.S. Government.

FYI - the 17 vaccines:

mandatory:

• Adenovirus
• Hepatitis A
• Hepatitis B
• Influenza
• Measles, mumps, rubella
• Meningococcal
• Poliovirus
• Tetanus-Diphtheria
• Varicella

may be required - based on risk, occupation, & area of deployment

• Anthrax
• Haemophilus influenzae type B
• Japanese encephalitis
• Pneumococcal
• Rabies
• Smallpox
• Typhoid fever
• Yellow fever

(you get most of them concurrently, during the same week of basic training, which makes basically makes everyone in the company dopesick for 1-2 weeks)

Folks can request a waiver based on health, administrative or religious grounds. These exemptions - decided ICB - can be temporary or permanent.

Covid-19 was determined to be mandatory, but that’s not a unique designation.

I just meant the covid one, I remember walking down the line getting shot in my right arm and then my left and then my right and then my left.....

the coast guard did not grant a single waiver for covid, kind of wild.

 

[BobbyLayne]

The bigger question when (not if) mandating vaccines for DoD personnel (active duty or reserve) is not an easy one. One would think that a virus that reaches the stage of a global pandemic would warrant such mandatory actions, but do we want to make mandates around vaccines that don't have full FDA approval?

It was mandated for all of us, those that refused were kicked out

Yeah, but that’s not a new thing, brother. The 17 vaccines DoD gives to recruits today are the same I got back in the early 80s when I served. As the old joke goes, when you are active duty, your body belongs to the U.S. Government.

FYI - the 17 vaccines:

mandatory:

• Adenovirus
• Hepatitis A
• Hepatitis B
• Influenza
• Measles, mumps, rubella
• Meningococcal
• Poliovirus
• Tetanus-Diphtheria
• Varicella

may be required - based on risk, occupation, & area of deployment

• Anthrax
• Haemophilus influenzae type B
• Japanese encephalitis
• Pneumococcal
• Rabies
• Smallpox
• Typhoid fever
• Yellow fever

(you get most of them concurrently, during the same week of basic training, which makes basically makes everyone in the company dopesick for 1-2 weeks)

Folks can request a waiver based on health, administrative or religious grounds. These exemptions - decided ICB - can be temporary or permanent.

Covid-19 was determined to be mandatory, but that’s not a unique designation.

I just meant the covid one, I remember walking down the line getting shot in my right arm and then my left and then my right and then my left.....

the coast guard did not grant a single waiver for covid, kind of wild.

Thought it was both arms at the same time for me but it’s been awhile.

Also let the bastards take out four perfectly fine wisdom teeth (all on the same day) because they don’t want you having an issue later on when you’re outside the wire.

 

[BobbyLayne]

the coast guard did not grant a single waiver for covid, kind of wild.

Same for me (for all vax), but I put the caveat at the end of my post because apparently that’s a thing now. Soft MFers…

 

[BobbyLayne]

The OP link provides commentary regarding (and a direct link to) the LISTEN study, which shows striking similarities between PVS and Long Covid.

There is no difference, only the cause. They are the same as far as symptoms and treatment are concerned.

This has been true for my buddy who has long Covid but suspects it came from a Covid booster. Like you, strong correlation, but the VA does not concur.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Long time lurker, probably over 20 years, first time posting. I hesitated to write this since it'll probably get a less than popular reception and I apologize for the long post. I also hoped to post at the beginning of the conversation, but here it is. Since I have a little experience in this topic I thought I would share. I was also enrolled in the LISTEN study through Yale that this research is based on, though i didn't supply any samples and wasn't a direct participant other than providing information.

In December of 2021 I received my 3rd moderna vaccine and what happened after that was something I would have never believed if it didn't happen to me, so i fully understand those that don't/can't believe this is a real thing.

The day after the booster I started to experience an elevated HR and a tightness in my back which I chalked up to a normal reaction, but after 4 days of this I decided I could "workout" any lingering effects and proceeded to go for an easy ride on my bike trainer. After 30 mins or so I stopped took a shower and sat on the couch. Looking at my Garmin watch my HR was sitting between 110 and 130 an hour later and I was feeling awful. Afraid I was having a heart attack I had my wife drive me to the ER and was immediately brought into a room with suspected afib. My HR would swing from 110 to 150 with even the slightest movement. I passed the tests I was given to rule out a heart attack, negative for covid, and was given intravenous ativan as this was a suspected anxiety attack. Other than making me drowsy this didn't touch the HR issues and I was sent on my way to see my PCP the following week. Lots of tests, no solutions and things went from bad to worse

I'm fit and in shape, lift weights, bike, play sports, never a serious health issue in my 45+ years on this earth but over the next few months went from 180lbs to 150lbs, i could barely walk around the block after completing an untra endurance event just 3 months earlier, had horrible insomnia, unable to fall asleep or stay asleep and would experience hypnic jerks when I could often the entire night for close to two years, like 2-3 days a week jerk awake ALL NIGHT just before falling asleep and then crash hard for a night then rinse repeat. This is a hell you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. I developed POTS, tachycardia, reduced vision in my right eye, neuropathy, blood pooling, high blood pressure, tinnitus, mood issues, horrible brain fog which was more like dementia than just groggy, palpitations. There was more, but this is probably enough to get the idea.

Local doctors were pretty much clueless as to what to do and what tests to provide. I did have an in-person zoom call with everyone's favorite researcher Dr Bruce Patterson (if you know you know), but his methods offered little help and I'll leave it at that. I did get a battery of tests from him that showed irregular Cytokine numbers. Other researchers offered tests like a TAT (thrombin antithrombin) to look for irregular clotting since normal tests such as a d-dimer weren't showing much. My TAT was literally off quest diagnostics chart, which I'm told isn't so great. Mt Sinai was doing research into this for long covid aswell as PVS and confirmed the presence of irregular fibrinogen clotting. Dr David Putrino headed that research if there's interest in that.

Yada yada long story short I fought this novel illness for 3 years before it finally resolved for the most part. I'm not 100%, but i would say I'm 99%. A few things linger, but i live normal again. The worst thing post recovery has been recurring shingles when i overdue it physically or get stressed.

I'm not posting this to change anyone's mind, but rather to give a first hand account of what happens in one of these PVS situations. Essentially the vaccine game me an extreme case of long covid, so anyone with any experience themselves or an acquaintance that's exactly what the PVS is like. If anyone has any questions or concerns I can try and answer what I can. I won't go into anymore details and waste time if not. If this isn't welcome, believe me, I get it. The only thing worse than the hell this put me through physically is the publics reaction and even worse friends and family. Getting a novel illness, a novel illness that's politically uncomfortable and nobody understands medically is an interesting experience.

I'll also add I'm in no way antivax. I understand the misinformation that comes from both sides of the argument aswell. I think for pretty much everyone they seem to work as advertised, but I'm not qualified to offer any more than an opinion in that regard. I did get 3 moderna after all, but for me they did not. AMA.

My uncle had a similar experience, but after his second shot. They were not able to tie it back to the vaccine though. What did your doctors find that tied it back to the vaccine?

 

[Mister CIA]

(you get most of them concurrently, during the same week of basic training, which makes basically makes everyone in the company dopesick for 1-2 weeks)

and constipated! ...in fairness, it could have been the chow, but for a few days there were a lot of worried dudes.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Again, the drugs are exactly the same and that's exactly what those articles are saying and what I'm saying. This conflation over what legal recourse one has if it's "approved" or "EUA" is a political topic and true for every single vaccine that comes out. It has NOTHING to do with these vaccines specifically or their safety. Its more along the lines of what Z Machine was asking above which is a significantly more honest path than this one.

How is it political?

Really? Your "beef" here seems to be with how the federal government mandated it's workers to take the vaccines after the President issued a EO to do so. How is that NOT political?

 

[Sparky Polastri]

which we now know to be cytotoxic.

this is patently false

We were told the Spike production/circulation would be would limited both in scope/scale (to the injection site) and temporally (for a short period of time), both of which have proven untrue in the years since.

Don't know who told you this, but no reputable scientist did. The immune system REQUIRES the circulation of antibodies to attach antigens.

This is VERY different technology compared to traditional vaccines.

Now this, this I am on board with. Gone are the days of having to inject aluminum, formaldehyde, mercury and the like into your body!

If anyone wants a layman's version of what the spike proteins are and why they are targeted, wikipedia of all places has a pretty good summary:

Coronavirus spike protein - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Sparky Polastri]

Long time lurker, probably over 20 years, first time posting. I hesitated to write this since it'll probably get a less than popular reception and I apologize for the long post. I also hoped to post at the beginning of the conversation, but here it is. Since I have a little experience in this topic I thought I would share. I was also enrolled in the LISTEN study through Yale that this research is based on, though i didn't supply any samples and wasn't a direct participant other than providing information.

In December of 2021 I received my 3rd moderna vaccine and what happened after that was something I would have never believed if it didn't happen to me, so i fully understand those that don't/can't believe this is a real thing.

The day after the booster I started to experience an elevated HR and a tightness in my back which I chalked up to a normal reaction, but after 4 days of this I decided I could "workout" any lingering effects and proceeded to go for an easy ride on my bike trainer. After 30 mins or so I stopped took a shower and sat on the couch. Looking at my Garmin watch my HR was sitting between 110 and 130 an hour later and I was feeling awful. Afraid I was having a heart attack I had my wife drive me to the ER and was immediately brought into a room with suspected afib. My HR would swing from 110 to 150 with even the slightest movement. I passed the tests I was given to rule out a heart attack, negative for covid, and was given intravenous ativan as this was a suspected anxiety attack. Other than making me drowsy this didn't touch the HR issues and I was sent on my way to see my PCP the following week. Lots of tests, no solutions and things went from bad to worse

I'm fit and in shape, lift weights, bike, play sports, never a serious health issue in my 45+ years on this earth but over the next few months went from 180lbs to 150lbs, i could barely walk around the block after completing an untra endurance event just 3 months earlier, had horrible insomnia, unable to fall asleep or stay asleep and would experience hypnic jerks when I could often the entire night for close to two years, like 2-3 days a week jerk awake ALL NIGHT just before falling asleep and then crash hard for a night then rinse repeat. This is a hell you wouldn't wish on your worst enemy. I developed POTS, tachycardia, reduced vision in my right eye, neuropathy, blood pooling, high blood pressure, tinnitus, mood issues, horrible brain fog which was more like dementia than just groggy, palpitations. There was more, but this is probably enough to get the idea.

Local doctors were pretty much clueless as to what to do and what tests to provide. I did have an in-person zoom call with everyone's favorite researcher Dr Bruce Patterson (if you know you know), but his methods offered little help and I'll leave it at that. I did get a battery of tests from him that showed irregular Cytokine numbers. Other researchers offered tests like a TAT (thrombin antithrombin) to look for irregular clotting since normal tests such as a d-dimer weren't showing much. My TAT was literally off quest diagnostics chart, which I'm told isn't so great. Mt Sinai was doing research into this for long covid aswell as PVS and confirmed the presence of irregular fibrinogen clotting. Dr David Putrino headed that research if there's interest in that.

Yada yada long story short I fought this novel illness for 3 years before it finally resolved for the most part. I'm not 100%, but i would say I'm 99%. A few things linger, but i live normal again. The worst thing post recovery has been recurring shingles when i overdue it physically or get stressed.

I'm not posting this to change anyone's mind, but rather to give a first hand account of what happens in one of these PVS situations. Essentially the vaccine game me an extreme case of long covid, so anyone with any experience themselves or an acquaintance that's exactly what the PVS is like. If anyone has any questions or concerns I can try and answer what I can. I won't go into anymore details and waste time if not. If this isn't welcome, believe me, I get it. The only thing worse than the hell this put me through physically is the publics reaction and even worse friends and family. Getting a novel illness, a novel illness that's politically uncomfortable and nobody understands medically is an interesting experience.

I'll also add I'm in no way antivax. I understand the misinformation that comes from both sides of the argument aswell. I think for pretty much everyone they seem to work as advertised, but I'm not qualified to offer any more than an opinion in that regard. I did get 3 moderna after all, but for me they did not. AMA.

My uncle had a similar experience, but after his second shot. They were not able to tie it back to the vaccine though. What did your doctors find that tied it back to the vaccine?

For me it was timing mostly and then as things unfolded symptoms as they were mimicking long covid. One day i was doing epics on my bike and within a day of the booster i had all the HR and insomnia issues. Once my pcp threw his hands up I started looking into researchers and was lucky enough to get more advanced testing like the clotting tests and Cytokine panels. Once i had those reports it was much easier to work with my doctors locally.

Did they tell you what specific part of the vaccine caused your issues?

 

[Bossman]

I'd like to than the mod's for allowing this topic...
and thank the FBG's for not wrecking it with insults and political opinions.
I'm enjoying reading some great info on what's been a hot topic for a while.

 

[dkp993]

The OP link provides commentary regarding (and a direct link to) the LISTEN study, which shows striking similarities between PVS and Long Covid.

There is no difference, only the cause. They are the same as far as symptoms and treatment are concerned.

This has been true for my buddy who has long Covid but suspects it came from a Covid booster. Like you, strong correlation, but the VA does not concur.

It's next to impossible to get any kind of acknowledgement unless you're lucky enough to get into a research program, or try your luck on the holistic circuit.

It's a real shame people have to go through this alone. If your buddy was like me this is probably one of the worst things he's gone through and there's next to no help at all.

My Sister in law has long COVID and is part of the Mayo Clinic’s long COVID program. She’s a tough midwestern woman but has suffered quite a bit the past 4 years. Part of that suffering is the fear of COVID that comes with it. She’s living a bit of a tortured life honestly.