PVS: Post Vaccination Syndrome (4 Viewers)

[Hastur]

I don't think even the biggest anti vaccine people deny it helped against COVID. Their concern seems to be the possible side effects down the road. I remember taking chantix decades ago when it was the cutting edge anti smoking thing. That was a bad choice for me. Ha ha

Right. I get the thought, but it's flawed IMO. How many modern day vaccines have been found to be fine for a few years and then causes major problems in most that have taken it? The truth is most problems are found almost immediately after introduction. Within weeks if not sooner. Immune response problems are typically found within days. For example, Pfizer had 12 different formulas they went through in 3 weeks to find optimal dosage for immune response.

So you're convinced that it's flawed thinking for someone to be concerned about a brand new vaccine and it's long term side effects after a 3 week test?

I know 6 people in real life that have had strokes or heart attacks that took the vaccine. Might be coincidental. They could have all had other health issues that I wouldn't be aware of. That's pretty scary. Was it related to Covid? Vaccine? None of us know for sure but for me personally, I've heard about a lot more strokes in people aged 35-50 than I ever did before this.

I think I made clear my thoughts in other posts. This isn't close to what I said.

Cardiovascular research is my area of study, so if you have any questions let me know. The conflation of causation and correlation ran rampant in the early stages of the pandemic when people didn't know what was going on or what the vaccines did. Your questions should be satisfied by now on the likelihood of the vaccines being the issue, but if not and you have questions I am happy to talk through.

There are a lot of people out there that experienced things or learned things they never knew prior to covid and I think that's a good thing, but to many fall in the "I didn't know about this before, so it must be because of the vaccine" mindset.

It's pretty much impossible to discuss this with you without breaking rules so I'll leave it at if you can't understand why the public would be hesitant on long term effects of a quickly produced vaccine, then I can't help you. It's not about whether it's actually safe or not long term you have to let long term happen to judge that. You're also just dismissing all the sudden heart and stroke issues as being some mindset so no point in further discussion.

Does anyone have data to prove or disprove the rise in strokes or cardiovascular issues?

Seems this would be relatively easily measured at a high level?

There isn't one. Yes, it's true that the numbers are increasing, but that's been true for 100 years. Most people know very little about cardiovascular disease. Here's a little article addressing our general awareness/understanding of it.

More than half of U.S. adults don’t know heart disease is leading cause of death, despite 100-year reign

Highlights: More than half (51%) of respondents in a 2023 Harris Poll survey conducted on behalf of the American Heart Association did not identify heart disease as the leading cause of death in the U.S. According to the 2024 Heart Disease and Stroke ...

newsroom.heart.org

Yup. I know this after reading Dr. Joel Fuhrmans book The End of Heart Disease. The SAD diet(Standard American Diet) is killing all of us.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I'd submit for consideration the possibility that the vaccines eased tour processing of covid and you'd have likely had a much worse time of it without them. Of course we'll never know for sure, but that is a pretty likely possibility.

I’m wholly unconvinced of that but of course that’s just my opinion.*

*and for perspective/frame of reference. I’m pro-vaccine and would encourage those in a at risk situation to take it. But I’m also of the camp that this isn’t a “vaccine”, at least not in the classical polo or measles sense.

What do you mean by this?

Vaccine’s in the context of actually immunizing you from the pathogens. Like polo or the measles.

To be clear, I fully understand the are different pathogens and mutations of strains are involved. I’m merely speaking to the word vaccine and how the majority of people think of it.

Still not sure I follow. The original measles vaccine was roughly 70% effective (i believe....don't remember for sure). The covid vaccines were well over 90% effective against the initial strands. The new measles vaccines are on the order of 95% effective with one shot and up to 97% with a second.

I don't know much about polio vaccines though. Can't comment on them with any confidence.

If the measles outbreaks we are seeing aren't contained and the virus becomes more widespread, don't be surprised if it's recommended that we get boosters.

You seem focused on efficacy, I’m speaking to perception from the general public. When you have to continue to get new vaccines, every time the virus mutates, which is quite rapidly in the case of this virus, it doesn’t feel like a vaccine. Shots and shots and shots, and more shots for something that doesn’t seem all that serious for healthy non cormorbilities people. It’s not that way with measles or polio. And that’s what most people think of when they think a vaccine, one shot (possibly a booster not long after) and you’re good for life. Not sure how else to say it.

But it is that way for the flu shot, which is what most people liked to compare covid to anyway (since you bring up public perception). I just find it bizarre when I see people talk about the covid vaxxes like they are poison but line up to take most of the other vaccines we can bring up. I find it bizarre when people fight about this medicine, but are willing to try most other drugs and medicines that are out there that have way worse side effects.

On the topic of perception, I will yet again bring up social media because that has done a lot of damage in this department. What I mean is that by feeding us the click bait negative crap, I have no doubt that people see 100s of stories about people dying after the shot, having reactions, etc... The problem is you don't see the millions of people who are fine or better because of it. It feels way worse than it is because people aren't given a denominator to get an accurate picture of what is going on. I've seen many articles about how people are waaaay off about stats and tend to guess really high when asked about things like covid deaths, school shootings, police shootings, whatever. I see it all the time in these threads too.

 

[ghostguy123]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

 

[KarmaPolice]

I don't think even the biggest anti vaccine people deny it helped against COVID. Their concern seems to be the possible side effects down the road. I remember taking chantix decades ago when it was the cutting edge anti smoking thing. That was a bad choice for me. Ha ha

Right. I get the thought, but it's flawed IMO. How many modern day vaccines have been found to be fine for a few years and then causes major problems in most that have taken it? The truth is most problems are found almost immediately after introduction. Within weeks if not sooner. Immune response problems are typically found within days. For example, Pfizer had 12 different formulas they went through in 3 weeks to find optimal dosage for immune response.

So you're convinced that it's flawed thinking for someone to be concerned about a brand new vaccine and it's long term side effects after a 3 week test?

I know 6 people in real life that have had strokes or heart attacks that took the vaccine. Might be coincidental. They could have all had other health issues that I wouldn't be aware of. That's pretty scary. Was it related to Covid? Vaccine? None of us know for sure but for me personally, I've heard about a lot more strokes in people aged 35-50 than I ever did before this.

I think I made clear my thoughts in other posts. This isn't close to what I said.

Cardiovascular research is my area of study, so if you have any questions let me know. The conflation of causation and correlation ran rampant in the early stages of the pandemic when people didn't know what was going on or what the vaccines did. Your questions should be satisfied by now on the likelihood of the vaccines being the issue, but if not and you have questions I am happy to talk through.

There are a lot of people out there that experienced things or learned things they never knew prior to covid and I think that's a good thing, but to many fall in the "I didn't know about this before, so it must be because of the vaccine" mindset.

It's pretty much impossible to discuss this with you without breaking rules so I'll leave it at if you can't understand why the public would be hesitant on long term effects of a quickly produced vaccine, then I can't help you. It's not about whether it's actually safe or not long term you have to let long term happen to judge that. You're also just dismissing all the sudden heart and stroke issues as being some mindset so no point in further discussion.

Does anyone have data to prove or disprove the rise in strokes or cardiovascular issues?

Seems this would be relatively easily measured at a high level?

There isn't one. Yes, it's true that the numbers are increasing, but that's been true for 100 years. Most people know very little about cardiovascular disease. Here's a little article addressing our general awareness/understanding of it.

More than half of U.S. adults don’t know heart disease is leading cause of death, despite 100-year reign

Highlights: More than half (51%) of respondents in a 2023 Harris Poll survey conducted on behalf of the American Heart Association did not identify heart disease as the leading cause of death in the U.S. According to the 2024 Heart Disease and Stroke ...

newsroom.heart.org

I am sure this is a big part of it too. General ignorance on the public's part about health and stats in general.

I would also guess that the likelihood of knowing people who have had those issues is way up as well, just because of the nature of people talking. One person reads a article that might suggest a correlation, then posts that with a couple people they know who have had issues. Somebody in the friend circle reposts it with a couple other examples. On and on. Like you point out if it something as common as CV disease, then it can really distort the picture.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

That is a completely different discussion. That has nothing to do with the efficacy of the vaccine itself or if it is causing people to get cancer and have more strokes.

ETA: I understand people's frustration with the mandates, but they have to still be honest about the stats and what they are upset about to have a discussion.

 

[dkp993]

I'd submit for consideration the possibility that the vaccines eased tour processing of covid and you'd have likely had a much worse time of it without them. Of course we'll never know for sure, but that is a pretty likely possibility.

I’m wholly unconvinced of that but of course that’s just my opinion.*

*and for perspective/frame of reference. I’m pro-vaccine and would encourage those in a at risk situation to take it. But I’m also of the camp that this isn’t a “vaccine”, at least not in the classical polo or measles sense.

What do you mean by this?

Vaccine’s in the context of actually immunizing you from the pathogens. Like polo or the measles.

To be clear, I fully understand the are different pathogens and mutations of strains are involved. I’m merely speaking to the word vaccine and how the majority of people think of it.

Still not sure I follow. The original measles vaccine was roughly 70% effective (i believe....don't remember for sure). The covid vaccines were well over 90% effective against the initial strands. The new measles vaccines are on the order of 95% effective with one shot and up to 97% with a second.

I don't know much about polio vaccines though. Can't comment on them with any confidence.

If the measles outbreaks we are seeing aren't contained and the virus becomes more widespread, don't be surprised if it's recommended that we get boosters.

You seem focused on efficacy, I’m speaking to perception from the general public. When you have to continue to get new vaccines, every time the virus mutates, which is quite rapidly in the case of this virus, it doesn’t feel like a vaccine. Shots and shots and shots, and more shots for something that doesn’t seem all that serious for healthy non cormorbilities people. It’s not that way with measles or polio. And that’s what most people think of when they think a vaccine, one shot (possibly a booster not long after) and you’re good for life. Not sure how else to say it.

People have quickly forgotten how well the vaccines worked against the initial viruses. If people are comparing these vaccines to measles vaccines just because they are asked to take multiple shots then they aren't comparing apples to apples. If measles were to mutate the same was covid does, you'd have to take more frequent boosters, but it doesn't, so you don't. That's not about the vaccine. That's about the virus you are fighting. Same thing with chicken pox or shingles or any other virus that doesn't mutate all that much. The other reason frequent boosters might be needed I concentration of the virus and it's load. Vaccines are used to get the antibodies made and flowing through the bloodstream so that we can cut down the amount of time the virus is in the body unchecked.

Again I agree. But you can understand the general publics perception of a what a vaccine does when our relative mass experience with them are with things like polo, measles, chickenpox, etc. Get a shot or 2 and be done. Right? That’s the what I’m speaking too. I understand the science and am not arguing that with you. But when people think of a vaccine that’s how they think. They don’t think about how they will need to get countless shot as it mutates. Yes that’s the science, again I understand, but the WORD vaccine to the average Joe means get a shot and be done and fully protected.

 

[dkp993]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

 

[ghostguy123]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

That is a completely different discussion. That has nothing to do with the efficacy of the vaccine itself or if it is causing people to get cancer and have more strokes.

ETA: I understand people's frustration with the mandates, but they have to still be honest about the stats and what they are upset about to have a discussion.

I know, I was just curious.
I also have a feeling people would have a more favorable view of the vaccine had it not been mandated the way it was. Just my 2 cents on that.

 

[KarmaPolice]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

I get what you are saying, but at some point I become a bit of an a-hole because understanding that difference would take somebody about 5 mins. I would bet a good amount that the vin diagram of the people you describe and people saying it's "just a flu" are pretty much a circle. I'd also guess that most of those people line up yearly to get their flu __________ (fill in the blank with whatever word we like). I don't think people are that unintelligent in general, which is why I tend to point more to the fact that people isolate in tribes and don't even start of with the same base info anymore. As with everything it became political.

 

[dkp993]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

I get what you are saying, but at some point I become a bit of an a-hole because understanding that difference would take somebody about 5 mins. I would bet a good amount that the vin diagram of the people you describe and people saying it's "just a flu" are pretty much a circle. I'd also guess that most of those people line up yearly to get their flu __________ (fill in the blank with whatever word we like). I don't think people are that unintelligent in general, which is why I tend to point more to the fact that people isolate in tribes and don't even start of with the same base info anymore. As with everything it became political.

Fundamentally don’t disagree with any of this.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

That is a completely different discussion. That has nothing to do with the efficacy of the vaccine itself or if it is causing people to get cancer and have more strokes.

ETA: I understand people's frustration with the mandates, but they have to still be honest about the stats and what they are upset about to have a discussion.

I know, I was just curious.
I also have a feeling people would have a more favorable view of the vaccine had it not been mandated the way it was. Just my 2 cents on that.

I 100% agree, but that is the politics not the science and stats.

I also get what you are saying and trying to get at, I am also trying to toe the line and not get this good discussion shut down. My retort would be to ask how many pandemics we have been through, and how this virus was different or the same than other examples we could think of. My fear is that we didn't learn any lessons about this outbreak, and unfortunately we set ourselves back for when something much worse comes along.

 

[ghostguy123]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

That is a completely different discussion. That has nothing to do with the efficacy of the vaccine itself or if it is causing people to get cancer and have more strokes.

ETA: I understand people's frustration with the mandates, but they have to still be honest about the stats and what they are upset about to have a discussion.

I know, I was just curious.
I also have a feeling people would have a more favorable view of the vaccine had it not been mandated the way it was. Just my 2 cents on that.

I 100% agree, but that is the politics not the science and stats.

I also get what you are saying and trying to get at, I am also trying to toe the line and not get this good discussion shut down. My retort would be to ask how many pandemics we have been through, and how this virus was different or the same than other examples we could think of. My fear is that we didn't learn any lessons about this outbreak, and unfortunately we set ourselves back for when something much worse comes along.

I've been saying that for 4 years now. If we have another pandemic, the public response will be worse and much less safe than last time........even if it's something with a 5% mortality rate. At least until most people know a few people who've died.

 

[dkp993]

My fear is that we didn't learn any lessons about this outbreak, and unfortunately we set ourselves back for when something much worse comes along.

Couldn’t agree more with this statement. Typically one would hope that we learned something and are better for it next time. But if anything because of how this was handled and the politics involved, we are almost certainly set up to fail if anything happens anytime soon. It will need to be wiped from the collective conscience via time before we have any shot at reacting well next time.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

Job specifically? Mostly military jobs are that way. Many school districts require them and so do preschools. Nurses and doctors can be required to have them. Just off the top of my head.

Mandating vaccines isn't incredibly novel. They are required for some travel, to get into schools, all kinds of things.

All this is to say, I wasn't a fan of the mandate. If people didn't want to get the shots and run a significantly higher chance of death, that's on them.

 

[KarmaPolice]

My fear is that we didn't learn any lessons about this outbreak, and unfortunately we set ourselves back for when something much worse comes along.

Couldn’t agree more with this statement. Typically one would hope that we learned something and are better for it next time. But if anything because of how this was handled and the politics involved, we are almost certainly set up to fail if anything happens anytime soon. It will need to be wiped from the collective conscience via time before we have any shot at reacting well next time.

Unfortunately, I believe what is far more likely is something else comes in our lifetime (next 20 years?).

Our only hope is to have our AI overlords use us for fuel so we don't have to worry about it.

 

[The Dreaded Marco]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

 

[Sparky Polastri]

I'd submit for consideration the possibility that the vaccines eased tour processing of covid and you'd have likely had a much worse time of it without them. Of course we'll never know for sure, but that is a pretty likely possibility.

I’m wholly unconvinced of that but of course that’s just my opinion.*

*and for perspective/frame of reference. I’m pro-vaccine and would encourage those in a at risk situation to take it. But I’m also of the camp that this isn’t a “vaccine”, at least not in the classical polo or measles sense.

What do you mean by this?

Vaccine’s in the context of actually immunizing you from the pathogens. Like polo or the measles.

To be clear, I fully understand the are different pathogens and mutations of strains are involved. I’m merely speaking to the word vaccine and how the majority of people think of it.

Still not sure I follow. The original measles vaccine was roughly 70% effective (i believe....don't remember for sure). The covid vaccines were well over 90% effective against the initial strands. The new measles vaccines are on the order of 95% effective with one shot and up to 97% with a second.

I don't know much about polio vaccines though. Can't comment on them with any confidence.

If the measles outbreaks we are seeing aren't contained and the virus becomes more widespread, don't be surprised if it's recommended that we get boosters.

You seem focused on efficacy, I’m speaking to perception from the general public. When you have to continue to get new vaccines, every time the virus mutates, which is quite rapidly in the case of this virus, it doesn’t feel like a vaccine. Shots and shots and shots, and more shots for something that doesn’t seem all that serious for healthy non cormorbilities people. It’s not that way with measles or polio. And that’s what most people think of when they think a vaccine, one shot (possibly a booster not long after) and you’re good for life. Not sure how else to say it.

People have quickly forgotten how well the vaccines worked against the initial viruses. If people are comparing these vaccines to measles vaccines just because they are asked to take multiple shots then they aren't comparing apples to apples. If measles were to mutate the same was covid does, you'd have to take more frequent boosters, but it doesn't, so you don't. That's not about the vaccine. That's about the virus you are fighting. Same thing with chicken pox or shingles or any other virus that doesn't mutate all that much. The other reason frequent boosters might be needed I concentration of the virus and it's load. Vaccines are used to get the antibodies made and flowing through the bloodstream so that we can cut down the amount of time the virus is in the body unchecked.

Again I agree. But you can understand the general publics perception of a what a vaccine does when our relative mass experience with them are with things like polo, measles, chickenpox, etc. Get a shot or 2 and be done. Right? That’s the what I’m speaking too. I understand the science and am not arguing that with you. But when people think of a vaccine that’s how they think. They don’t think about how they will need to get countless shot as it mutates. Yes that’s the science, again I understand, but the WORD vaccine to the average Joe means get a shot and be done and fully protected.

Not sure why not. The most frequently taken vaccine is for flu and is required in the exact same way.

They need to understand WHY they don't have to take the other often then they'll realize it's not about the vaccine and all about the virus. We need to do a way better job educating people on the basics. Fauci and company crapped the bed on that mostly because of a bad assumption that people actually knew the basics.

I fully expect people to lose their minds if/when a measles booster is recommended should it continue to spread.

 

[dkp993]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Me? Or the general public?

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Obviously we know the answer to this. Again that’s not my point, nor has it ever been.

If you don’t agree that most people (key words, most people) assumed when the COVID vaccine came out that it was going to be more like the polo, measles, smallpox “vaccines” they grew up with (One, maybe 2, shots then your good to go) and it turned out to not be that and be more like the “flu shot” then used that as another reason to lose faith in what they perceived they were being told, well I guess we won’t ever see eye to eye.

I am not, nor ever have been, talking about the actual science. Not sure how I can make this more clear.

 

[The Dreaded Marco]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Me? Or the general public?

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Obviously we know the answer to this. Again that’s not my point, nor has it ever been.

If you don’t agree that most people (key words, most people) assumed when the COVID vaccine came out that it was going to be more like the polo, measles, smallpox “vaccines” they grew up with (One, maybe 2, shots then your good to go) and it turned out to not be that and be more like the “flu shot” then used that as another reason to lose faith in what they perceived they were being told, well I guess we won’t ever see eye to eye.

I am not, nor ever have been, talking about the actual science. Not sure how I can make this more clear.

I don't agree with your premise that the general public doesn't consider the Flu shot a vaccine.

Maybe I'm wrong.

 

[dkp993]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Me? Or the general public?

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Obviously we know the answer to this. Again that’s not my point, nor has it ever been.

If you don’t agree that most people (key words, most people) assumed when the COVID vaccine came out that it was going to be more like the polo, measles, smallpox “vaccines” they grew up with (One, maybe 2, shots then your good to go) and it turned out to not be that and be more like the “flu shot” then used that as another reason to lose faith in what they perceived they were being told, well I guess we won’t ever see eye to eye.

I am not, nor ever have been, talking about the actual science. Not sure how I can make this more clear.

I don't agree with your premise that the general public doesn't consider the Flu shot a vaccine.

Maybe I'm wrong.

And I will certainly admit that I could be the one that’s wrong. I’m only expressing my opinion.

 

[The Dreaded Marco]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Me? Or the general public?

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Obviously we know the answer to this. Again that’s not my point, nor has it ever been.

If you don’t agree that most people (key words, most people) assumed when the COVID vaccine came out that it was going to be more like the polo, measles, smallpox “vaccines” they grew up with (One, maybe 2, shots then your good to go) and it turned out to not be that and be more like the “flu shot” then used that as another reason to lose faith in what they perceived they were being told, well I guess we won’t ever see eye to eye.

I am not, nor ever have been, talking about the actual science. Not sure how I can make this more clear.

I don't agree with your premise that the general public doesn't consider the Flu shot a vaccine.

Maybe I'm wrong.

And I will certainly admit that I could be the one that’s wrong. I’m only expressing my opinion.

Well, my BIL, SIL and niece just arrived for dinner. All 3 are highly educated. I just asked them: "Is the Flu shot a vaccine?" Two of them said no.

So, although a small sample size, I think you're probably right.

 

[KarmaPolice]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Me? Or the general public?

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Obviously we know the answer to this. Again that’s not my point, nor has it ever been.

If you don’t agree that most people (key words, most people) assumed when the COVID vaccine came out that it was going to be more like the polo, measles, smallpox “vaccines” they grew up with (One, maybe 2, shots then your good to go) and it turned out to not be that and be more like the “flu shot” then used that as another reason to lose faith in what they perceived they were being told, well I guess we won’t ever see eye to eye.

I am not, nor ever have been, talking about the actual science. Not sure how I can make this more clear.

I don't agree with your premise that the general public doesn't consider the Flu shot a vaccine.

Maybe I'm wrong.

That's what I keep coming back to that as well. Why would the general public assume that it would be like that, especially when the general public also like to refer to it as like a flu and presents nothing like polo or smallpox? He could be right, but then I should be thinking less of the general public than I do already.

I think people mostly get it or could understand that easily. To me what is far more likely is that we are hyper-political now, and the virus became political within days. IMO the science of viruses and vaccines didn't change. Our understanding of the virus changed, which should happen with more research and as more data comes is. Because it became political so early, it was so hard for people to move off their initial stances on what was going on and how we should respond. It really feels like we are beyond rational discourse as a country.

For me the most frustrating thing now is that I feel I woke up from a 10 year nap and now words don't have meanings any more. I get it, I am getting old and hate tech. I am not talking about typical generational thing and me not knowing slang or lingo. When I am talking to somebody I seriously don't know what they mean with terms anymore. I get a dozen answers to what DEI is. What is woke? What is racist? What is fascist? What is a mass shooting? What is a shot/vaccine? It just causes people to shout past each other. We need to get back to agreeing on facts, stats, and definitions. Then we can yell at each other about what to do about these things.

ETA: Based on your post you made as I typed this, I guess the bolded might apply more.

 

[ghostguy123]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

Job specifically? Mostly military jobs are that way. Many school districts require them and so do preschools. Nurses and doctors can be required to have them. Just off the top of my head.

Mandating vaccines isn't incredibly novel. They are required for some travel, to get into schools, all kinds of things.

All this is to say, I wasn't a fan of the mandate. If people didn't want to get the shots and run a significantly higher chance of death, that's on them.

To KEEP your job, not to GET your job.

 

[rockaction]

I get a dozen answers to what DEI is.

I totally get what you're saying, but you're looking in the wrong places, then. Diversity, Equity, Inclusion. The acronyms are comprised of three distinct concepts. Equity, the hardest of those concepts, was given an explication nonpareil by John McWhorter of the Atlantic. Totally cleared it up for me (I knew about 90-95% of it). So if anything, I found that social media and the internet helped rather than exacerbated my understanding of what it is. Same with "woke."

Racist or fascist are loaded epithets that mean different things to different people. So I default and use M-W, American Heritage, or Oxford.

Vaccine should be cut and dry definitionally, too. Just because people don't think something is a vaccine doesn't mean it's not a vaccine, as The Dreaded Marco points out.

KP, you and I are simpatico, I think. But you're making this too hard on yourself.

 

[dkp993]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Me? Or the general public?

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Obviously we know the answer to this. Again that’s not my point, nor has it ever been.

If you don’t agree that most people (key words, most people) assumed when the COVID vaccine came out that it was going to be more like the polo, measles, smallpox “vaccines” they grew up with (One, maybe 2, shots then your good to go) and it turned out to not be that and be more like the “flu shot” then used that as another reason to lose faith in what they perceived they were being told, well I guess we won’t ever see eye to eye.

I am not, nor ever have been, talking about the actual science. Not sure how I can make this more clear.

I don't agree with your premise that the general public doesn't consider the Flu shot a vaccine.

Maybe I'm wrong.

And I will certainly admit that I could be the one that’s wrong. I’m only expressing my opinion.

Well, my BIL, SIL and niece just arrived for dinner. All 3 are highly educated. I just asked them: "Is the Flu shot a vaccine?" Two of them said no.

So, although a small sample size, I think you're probably right.

I obviously only have anecdotal evidence as well but I’ve just heard to many times. People disassociate between the “classic vaccines” we grew up with and things like the flu shot or a rabies shot.

And to go back to how this discussion started. When I got vaccinated, had I known this virus would act more like the flu (in regards to its frequency of mutations) and not more like polo, measles, etc etc. I wouldn’t have got it. But I also never get the flu shot/vaccine either. I was definitely under the impression (either due to my understanding at the time, what we knew about COVID then, my misperception of what we were being told, whatever) that I was getting covered by my 1 or 2 shots and wouldn’t have to be concerned about COVID afterwards. Once that became not the case I stopped getting shots.

 

[dkp993]

To me what is far more likely is that we are hyper-political now, and the virus became political within days. IMO the science of viruses and vaccines didn't change. Our understanding of the virus changed, which should happen with more research and as more data comes is. Because it became political so early, it was so hard for people to move off their initial stances on what was going on and how we should respond. It really feels like we are beyond rational discourse as a country.

I don’t think it’s binary. This (quoted portion) 100% played a major factor too.

 

[Riffraff]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

These are the mandatory vaccinations that all service members are required to receive before initial entry or basic training:

• Adenovirus
• Hepatitis A
• Hepatitis B
• Influenza
• Measles, mumps, rubella
• Meningococcal
• Poliovirus
• Tetanus-Diphtheria
• Varicella

Other vaccines administered depending on risk and occupation:

• Anthrax
• Haemophilus influenzae type B
• Japanese encephalitis
• Pneumococcal
• Rabies
• Smallpox
• Typhoid fever
• Yellow fever

----
Healthcare professionals are required to get the influenza vaccine annually. At least everywhere that I worked - if they didn't have a waiver.

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Because the general public doesn't ask for the influenza vaccine, they shorten it to flu shot for easy speaking.

 

[KarmaPolice]

I get a dozen answers to what DEI is.

I totally get what you're saying, but you're looking in the wrong places, then. Diversity, Equity, Inclusion. The acronyms are comprised of three distinct concepts. Equity, the hardest of those concepts, was given an explication nonpareil by John McWhorter of the Atlantic. Totally cleared it up for me (I knew about 99% of it). So if anything, I found that social media and the internet helped rather than exacerbated my understanding of what it is. Same with "woke."

Racist or fascist are loaded epithets that mean different things to different people? So I default and use M-W, American Heritage, or Oxford.

Vaccine should be cut and dry definitionally, too. Just because people don't think something is a vaccine doesn't mean it's not a vaccine, as The Dreaded Marco points out.

KP, you and I are simpatico, I think. But you're making this too hard on yourself. Here is equity, briefly explained on Maher. This sort of thing isn't that taxing, IMO.

x.com

x.com

I guess I will try to be more blunt because I don't think I was being clear or probably more accurately I was trying to dance around the issue for Joe. I think what has happened is that depending on where you get your information, we now have different vocabulary. I try to talk to people in other formats online and IRL, and I encounter this all the time. I get a variety of answers and see people using those terms that I highlighted. I think you get the point I am trying to make. Maybe I am underestimating people and maybe I am being too hyperbolic. I purposely try to ask people what they mean when I talk issues and politics and don't seem to get a common answer for much of anything. I talked to people about the vaccines and covid and they didn't know those terms or completely misused them. I try to talk to people about guns and shootings - same thing. Been in discussions where different people calling completely different things woke or rascist. People misused equity and equality in discussions or use different defintions for them. Hopefully that clarified a little what I was getting at here. Could just me being an old grump as well.

 

[rockaction]

Ah, I see. You're saying we're so fragmented and language has become so loaded and fraught with importance that we can't even agree on common definitions of the words we're using.

They call that Babylon, friend.

 

[KarmaPolice]

Ah, I see. You're saying we're so fragmented and language has become so loaded and fraught with importance that we can't even agree on common definitions of the words we're using.

They call that Babylon, friend.

Yes, that is a much better way to phrase my babbling.

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

Job specifically? Mostly military jobs are that way. Many school districts require them and so do preschools. Nurses and doctors can be required to have them. Just off the top of my head.

Mandating vaccines isn't incredibly novel. They are required for some travel, to get into schools, all kinds of things.

All this is to say, I wasn't a fan of the mandate. If people didn't want to get the shots and run a significantly higher chance of death, that's on them.

This is the dramatic nonsense you keep pushing but one could easily say if you wanted to get the shot and increase your chance of a heart attack or stroke, have at it.

 

[jhib]

I'm just happy that even people who have in the past seemingly questioned just about everything about the covid vaccine are now posting positively about studies which declare right from the start, "COVID-19 vaccines have prevented millions of COVID-19 deaths."

 

[fatness]

It looks like getting "turbo cancer" into discussion was the goal of this topic.
Reminds me of this one, an opinion piece presented as an NIH study that was not an NIH study.

Thread 'COVID UPDATE: What is the truth?'

Jun 30, 2022

NIH website quietly published an article this past April that is a must read for all, here, there and everywhere. May the truth set us free...

COVID UPDATE: What is the truth?

Russell L. Blaylock

Author Info -

Retired Neurosurgeon, Theoretical Neuroscience Research, LLC, Ridgeland, Mississippi, United States.

Russell L. Blaylock: moc.liamg@7036yalB

*Corresponding author: Russell L. Blaylock, Theoretical Neuroscience Research, LLC, Ridgeland, Mississippi, United States. moc.liamg@7036yalB

Intro -

The COVID-19 pandemic is one of the most manipulated infectious...

• LawFitz
• Replies: 305
• Forum: The Politics Forum

 

[Sparky Polastri]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

Job specifically? Mostly military jobs are that way. Many school districts require them and so do preschools. Nurses and doctors can be required to have them. Just off the top of my head.

Mandating vaccines isn't incredibly novel. They are required for some travel, to get into schools, all kinds of things.

All this is to say, I wasn't a fan of the mandate. If people didn't want to get the shots and run a significantly higher chance of death, that's on them.

To KEEP your job, not to GET your job.

All those examples require people stay up to date or they don't get to come back to work. I don't really understand where you're going but this seems like a distinction without a meaningful difference. All you're talking about here is the timing for which the vaccine became available (before or after they got their job). Malaria vaccines are probably a good example. Again, this really isn't a novel concept.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Me? Or the general public?

But it is that way for the flu shot,

That is exactly my point. People call it the flu shot, not flu vaccine.*

*and yes I understand they are one in the same but again, public perception is what I’m talking about.

Almost everyone calls it a “tetanus shot”.

Do you consider that a vaccine?

Obviously we know the answer to this. Again that’s not my point, nor has it ever been.

If you don’t agree that most people (key words, most people) assumed when the COVID vaccine came out that it was going to be more like the polo, measles, smallpox “vaccines” they grew up with (One, maybe 2, shots then your good to go) and it turned out to not be that and be more like the “flu shot” then used that as another reason to lose faith in what they perceived they were being told, well I guess we won’t ever see eye to eye.

I am not, nor ever have been, talking about the actual science. Not sure how I can make this more clear.

I don't agree with your premise that the general public doesn't consider the Flu shot a vaccine.

Maybe I'm wrong.

And I will certainly admit that I could be the one that’s wrong. I’m only expressing my opinion.

Well, my BIL, SIL and niece just arrived for dinner. All 3 are highly educated. I just asked them: "Is the Flu shot a vaccine?" Two of them said no.

So, although a small sample size, I think you're probably right.

I obviously only have anecdotal evidence as well but I’ve just heard to many times. People disassociate between the “classic vaccines” we grew up with and things like the flu shot or a rabies shot.

And to go back to how this discussion started. When I got vaccinated, had I known this virus would act more like the flu (in regards to its frequency of mutations) and not more like polo, measles, etc etc. I wouldn’t have got it. But I also never get the flu shot/vaccine either. I was definitely under the impression (either due to my understanding at the time, what we knew about COVID then, my misperception of what we were being told, whatever) that I was getting covered by my 1 or 2 shots and wouldn’t have to be concerned about COVID afterwards. Once that became not the case I stopped getting shots.

That was 100% accurate up through Delta. You made the correct choices and there was no misunderstanding on your part that I can see other than not realizing the mutation part. Mutation is one of the classic traits of coronaviruses. You were told this and it was correct that you'd be told this. You were also told that mutations were likely to occur that could either make things worse or make things better (more manageable). The range of impact on the vaccines were from "render them completely useless and have to come up with another" to "it continues to work just as well on the new mutations as it does on the variants they were designed for". On that spectrum we're in the middle with "they still work pretty good at keeping people from getting really sick and dying, but won't keep you from catching the virus". This is the primary reason the medical community was screaming for everyone to get vaccinated. It was to cut down on the chances of mutation because no one could predict the future and know how/when they'd mutate in a way that they could set us back 3-4 years.

When you got your shots no one had any idea that this would go the flu route. We can't predict the future, so I don't understand people looking at it that way at all. This is where my empathy is lacking. I just don't get that mindset. In situations like these we have to make decisions with what we know. All this is coming from someone who had the first two shots and the booster only, because, like you, after observing and seeing the mutations, I decided my situation would be low risk moving forward because of the way it mutated and also because I had been vaccinated. I should also say, I don't get flu shots either.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

Job specifically? Mostly military jobs are that way. Many school districts require them and so do preschools. Nurses and doctors can be required to have them. Just off the top of my head.

Mandating vaccines isn't incredibly novel. They are required for some travel, to get into schools, all kinds of things.

All this is to say, I wasn't a fan of the mandate. If people didn't want to get the shots and run a significantly higher chance of death, that's on them.

This is the dramatic nonsense you keep pushing but one could easily say if you wanted to get the shot and increase your chance of a heart attack or stroke, have at it.

Sure. People can say what they want, but the people saying what you say here would have zero peer reviewed studies to support their assertion. In that moment in time Delta was highly deadly for a coronavirus and study after study showed that the vaccines significantly reduced the chances of death in all people (not just those with comorbidities)

 

[Ramblin Wreck]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

Job specifically? Mostly military jobs are that way. Many school districts require them and so do preschools. Nurses and doctors can be required to have them. Just off the top of my head.

Mandating vaccines isn't incredibly novel. They are required for some travel, to get into schools, all kinds of things.

All this is to say, I wasn't a fan of the mandate. If people didn't want to get the shots and run a significantly higher chance of death, that's on them.

This is the dramatic nonsense you keep pushing but one could easily say if you wanted to get the shot and increase your chance of a heart attack or stroke, have at it.

Sure. People can say what they want, but the people saying what you say here would have zero peer reviewed studies to support their assertion. In that moment in time Delta was highly deadly for a coronavirus and study after study showed that the vaccines significantly reduced the chances of death in all people (not just those with comorbidities)

Peer reviewed in a month without error? Come on man. It's perfectly reasonable for intelligent person to resist the vaccine because it's new and long term effects are unknown. And it's perfectly reasonable for someone to want to take it because they believe Covid would kill them without it. Stop acting like the summer of 2021 you were some vaccine expert that knew for a fact what the long term effects were.

Hell, we still don't know if it caused a spike in heart attacks and strokes. Most people that took the vaccine just dismiss the spike as heart attacks and strokes have always existed. And lots of people were marked death by Covid when it could have been death with Covid.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

Job specifically? Mostly military jobs are that way. Many school districts require them and so do preschools. Nurses and doctors can be required to have them. Just off the top of my head.

Mandating vaccines isn't incredibly novel. They are required for some travel, to get into schools, all kinds of things.

All this is to say, I wasn't a fan of the mandate. If people didn't want to get the shots and run a significantly higher chance of death, that's on them.

This is the dramatic nonsense you keep pushing but one could easily say if you wanted to get the shot and increase your chance of a heart attack or stroke, have at it.

Sure. People can say what they want, but the people saying what you say here would have zero peer reviewed studies to support their assertion. In that moment in time Delta was highly deadly for a coronavirus and study after study showed that the vaccines significantly reduced the chances of death in all people (not just those with comorbidities)

Peer reviewed in a month without error? Come on man. It's perfectly reasonable for intelligent person to resist the vaccine because it's new and long term effects are unknown. And it's perfectly reasonable for someone to want to take it because they believe Covid would kill them without it. Stop acting like the summer of 2021 you were some vaccine expert that knew for a fact what the long term effects were.

Hell, we still don't know if it caused a spike in heart attacks and strokes. Most people that took the vaccine just dismiss the spike as heart attacks and strokes have always existed. And lots of people were marked death by Covid when it could have been death with Covid.

You sure like to read into people's words a lot of stuff that isn't there. You also like to play fast and loose with the timelines. Example here is your use of "in a month" after quoting me when I was clearly talking about the time in/around Delta ( almost 10 months in) The fact is, we knew very early on how effective the vaccines were and how well they aided mortality. The data was clear within a couple months of deployment of the vaccines and proved itself even more during Delta.

To the bold, I don't know what to say. This has been an area of study/concern from the beginning and a great many labs have been or were laser focused on this question for the better part of four years now. They've found NOTHING to support a contribution to a spike in heart attacks and strokes. All the data is well within the margins of "typical". So, yes, we do know. It is statistically impossible for the data to remain consistent like it has with hundreds of millions of people taking the vaccines for it not to show up as an obvious spike on the timeline.

If one wants to live with the philosophy of "Not going to do it because I don't know what might happen down the road", cool. Don't get vaccinated, ever. You never know what might happen in the future. And I know those people are out there.

 

[RCon]

While we're on the subject of debunked anti-vax conspiracy theories...

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamanetworkopen/fullarticle/2830557?guestAccessKey=c0957767-f5eb-4d6d-88a4-15c747418b57

 

[Navin Johnson]

---

So are we just going to rely on anecdotal evidence of said spikes?

 

[fatness]

---

So are we just going to rely on anecdotal evidence of said spikes?

No, we're not even going to rely on that.

 

[Max Power]

The problem with the mandate was mainly that it forced people into taking an EUA product. The whole Comirnaty (FDA Approved) angle was bogus from a legal perspective.

 

[Harry Manback]

BTW, in the last 18 mos, I've witnessed...

- My best friend's mom stoke and become a vegetable,

- My FIL and Uncle-in-law die from Turbo cancer.

All of them, heavily vaccinated, and two of them in very good health until 2021-22.

Closest anecdotes. I've so many more further around me. Condolences to any others of you who do as well.

I’m sorry for your loss. That’s very sad. What is turbo cancer? Was that the official diagnosis from doctors? I’ve never heard of it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turbo_cancer

So an anti-vax conspiracy theory? Got it.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The problem with the mandate was mainly that it forced people into taking an EUA product. The whole Comirnaty (FDA Approved) angle was bogus from a legal perspective.

The formulas were EXACTLY the same. This is a political talking point that I don't believe is allowed around here.

 

[Max Power]

The problem with the mandate was mainly that it forced people into taking an EUA product. The whole Comirnaty (FDA Approved) angle was bogus from a legal perspective.

The formulas were EXACTLY the same. This is a political talking point that I don't believe is allowed around here.

They were legally distinct. Same formula yes. But Pfizer could not apply to the comirnaty label to any vial produced pre FDA approval. There were already millions of vials produced that hadn't been used yet, so that was there way around it. Its not political, its how they covered their tracks legally. Ultimately it made the DoD version of the mandate illegal.

 

[Sparky Polastri]

The problem with the mandate was mainly that it forced people into taking an EUA product. The whole Comirnaty (FDA Approved) angle was bogus from a legal perspective.

The formulas were EXACTLY the same. This is a political talking point that I don't believe is allowed around here.

They were legally distinct. Same formula yes. But Pfizer could not apply to the comirnaty label to any vial produced pre FDA approval. There were already millions of vials produced that hadn't been used yet, so that was there way around it. Its not political, its how they covered their tracks legally. Ultimately it made the DoD version of the mandate illegal.

Take a poll and see how many people actually know what you're talking about besides me. This was far from "the problem" with the mandate. It didn't matter from a pragmatic and/or practical matter. I do agree it was a legal technicality that made absolutely no difference in terms of healthcare. If this isn't political, I don't know what is.

 

[The Z Machine]

The bigger question when (not if) mandating vaccines for DoD personnel (active duty or reserve) is not an easy one. One would think that a virus that reaches the stage of a global pandemic would warrant such mandatory actions, but do we want to make mandates around vaccines that don't have full FDA approval?

 

[El Floppo]

I'm not super old so maybe this has happened, but what other vaccine had been mandated in order to keep your job prior to the Covid vaccine?

That is a completely different discussion. That has nothing to do with the efficacy of the vaccine itself or if it is causing people to get cancer and have more strokes.

ETA: I understand people's frustration with the mandates, but they have to still be honest about the stats and what they are upset about to have a discussion.

I know, I was just curious.
I also have a feeling people would have a more favorable view of the vaccine had it not been mandated the way it was. Just my 2 cents on that.

public schools typically require vaccinations for attendance... not sure if you feel like that's the same as for work, but kinda the same ballpark.

my oldest became school aged right when the "vaccines cause autism" thing happened- and there were a lot of folk in the same disgruntled mindset.

 

[ChiefD]

My dad showed the covid thread to me and my mom. Pretty shocking stuff in that thread. That's how I ended up lurking and then joining just a little while back.

So which one of the degenerates on this board is your dad?



(man we are getting old if the kids start showing up )

 

[Max Power]

The problem with the mandate was mainly that it forced people into taking an EUA product. The whole Comirnaty (FDA Approved) angle was bogus from a legal perspective.

The formulas were EXACTLY the same. This is a political talking point that I don't believe is allowed around here.

They were legally distinct. Same formula yes. But Pfizer could not apply to the comirnaty label to any vial produced pre FDA approval. There were already millions of vials produced that hadn't been used yet, so that was there way around it. Its not political, its how they covered their tracks legally. Ultimately it made the DoD version of the mandate illegal.

Take a poll and see how many people actually know what you're talking about besides me. This was far from "the problem" with the mandate. It didn't matter from a pragmatic and/or practical matter. I do agree it was a legal technicality that made absolutely no difference in terms of healthcare. If this isn't political, I don't know what is.

Policy isn't inherently political. Unless you're of the belief that the mandate was politically motivated.

It was public health gaslighting is what it was. MSM was in bed with big pharma to push their reality. Anyone who pointed out the legal distinction was outcasted and called crazy. Now that the dust has settled and people can see the game that was played, the trust has eroded. The government shouldn't be in the business of forcing or tricking people into taking an EUA product.