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QB Mac Jones, SF (1 Viewer)
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Anarchy99
Footballguy
What I think is odd is the NE offense the past couple of weeks targeted spots on the field they don't generally work . . . outside the numbers and across the field. They generally run underneath stuff like crossing / drag / seam routes in the middle of the field. Jones is never going to do much throwing across the field or into tight windows along the sidelines. It seems like he kept looking for guys that were momentarily open but far away against the Cowboys compared to the quick throws they normally scheme for. Six- or eight-yard gains are a lot better than interceptions, pick sixes, or throwaways.
Boston
Footballguy
Got a feeling this season will be filled with articles like this where there are glimpses and optimism that they are turning the corner but never truly do...unfortunately Mac has regressed, is surrounded by subpar weapons and has an O line in front of him that in a best case scenario will be average...after a promising rookie year the Pats are performing a masterclass in how not to develop a young QB...as for Mac I was pretty high on him as a rookie but I am now not sold on him...he is not athletic enough for today's NFL, his arm-strength is below average and mentally I don't think he has what it takes to overcome adversity and be a legit leader...that last part could change as he hopefully matures but right now I am really starting to feel that they need to start looking in another direction for 2024 as he is not the long-term answer.
dipandglide
Footballguy
I thought he looked good for the first 2-3 weeks. He made some difficult throws. It's tough when your WR1 is a blend of Bourne/Parker. He needs better receiving weapons.
Boston
Footballguy
Agree about the weapons 100% but I am not seeing what you are seeing now that he is in year 3...he is not garbage by any means but I just don't see a QB that you will be a contender with...he can make some plays but overall he just looks like an average NFL QB.
dipandglide
Footballguy
He's certainly not an all-star. My point was he hasn't regressed or looked terrible in my eyes. We can agree he needs to show more improvement ROTY if he's going to stick around as a starter
Boston
Footballguy
He has regressed to me since his rookie year...looks uncomfortable and a little lost...some of those throws against Dallas were just unacceptable...in fairness to him he has been put in a very bad spot but I feel like he was a better QB his rookie year than he is now.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
From what I have seen / heard / read, the offense is not all on the same page and clicking at all. There is a disconnect and a learning curve in trying to integrate a ton of new guys all at the same time on offense.
O-LINE: New O-line coach, a revolving door of injuries, several rookies, guys that were added as free agents, or trade acquisitions the week before the season started. If you throw spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks, it's still spaghetti. They have mixed and matched so many bodies so far (10 guys with more coming back to practice this week) that there is no chemistry or continuity. Guys are hesitant and not always sure who they are supposed to block, they've had some terrible penalties, and they haven't done much at all in the running game.
WR & TE: Very similar to the line group. New OC; JJSS, Gesicki, and Brown are new; Douglas and Boutte are rookies, returning guys not fully in tune with BOB yet, etc. I've heard from beat guys that the receivers have struggled to line up in the right spots and run the right routes, let alone identify what coverage the defense is in and making adjustments. At times, Jones is seeing and expecting the receivers to do something different. Bourne has had issues identifying zone coverage from man. JuJu hasn't fully grasped where is is supposed to be and what to do. I've heard some folks suggest Douglas runs a little loosey goosey on his routes. Boutte has lost snaps with Parker back. Thornton still hasn't come back yet.
QB: Jones has hung in the pocket and made some tough throws. But he's also made some terrible throws and picked the wrong receiver. I have seen some tape of him missing guys that were open, but when you have to worry that you are going to get crushed, you can't rely that receivers are going to be in the right spot, and on occasion guys have actually run into each other running routes (or drew defensive coverage when two guys end up in the same spot), it's not all Jones' fault.
RB: Stevenson is more of a finish back that sometimes hesitates and waits for a hole to present itself. The problem has been, there haven't been many holes to run through, and hanging back and surveying looking for a crease that isn't there leads to negative yardage or no gains a lot. Zeke generally runs hard straight ahead, and even if there isn't anything there, he'll hit a defender and get a couple of yards. It's also hard to rely on the run when you are down three scores. Stevenson also doesn't look as engaged or as shifty this year so far.
COACHING: Not sure who to blame if the players don't know what they are supposed to do . . . is that on the players or the coaches? I haven't been a fan of some of the play calls, and as I mentioned earlier, they seem to have gotten away from the usual NE throw underneath and run crossing routes a ton. The only time they are going to get a deep pass is through broken coverage or through deception. None of the receivers are going to outrun the defenders.
Overall, the offense is like trying to drive a car with a flat tire. They can't get anywhere until they fix the flat . . . but on any given play, the flat is a different tire. I don't expect the offense to be this bad all season . . . but that doesn't necessarily mean they will climb to even average. I know people keep banging the drum that the lack of talent at receiver is the main problem, but the systemic problem right now is they can't get everyone to run the right play properly and have 11 guys do the right thing even on a single play very often. They could have better receivers and IMO, right now that wouldn't make any difference. I expect them to look a little better once they get everyone healthy, on the same page, and multiple weeks of practice together. Cutting out the turnovers would help a lot.
O-LINE: New O-line coach, a revolving door of injuries, several rookies, guys that were added as free agents, or trade acquisitions the week before the season started. If you throw spaghetti against the wall to see what sticks, it's still spaghetti. They have mixed and matched so many bodies so far (10 guys with more coming back to practice this week) that there is no chemistry or continuity. Guys are hesitant and not always sure who they are supposed to block, they've had some terrible penalties, and they haven't done much at all in the running game.
WR & TE: Very similar to the line group. New OC; JJSS, Gesicki, and Brown are new; Douglas and Boutte are rookies, returning guys not fully in tune with BOB yet, etc. I've heard from beat guys that the receivers have struggled to line up in the right spots and run the right routes, let alone identify what coverage the defense is in and making adjustments. At times, Jones is seeing and expecting the receivers to do something different. Bourne has had issues identifying zone coverage from man. JuJu hasn't fully grasped where is is supposed to be and what to do. I've heard some folks suggest Douglas runs a little loosey goosey on his routes. Boutte has lost snaps with Parker back. Thornton still hasn't come back yet.
QB: Jones has hung in the pocket and made some tough throws. But he's also made some terrible throws and picked the wrong receiver. I have seen some tape of him missing guys that were open, but when you have to worry that you are going to get crushed, you can't rely that receivers are going to be in the right spot, and on occasion guys have actually run into each other running routes (or drew defensive coverage when two guys end up in the same spot), it's not all Jones' fault.
RB: Stevenson is more of a finish back that sometimes hesitates and waits for a hole to present itself. The problem has been, there haven't been many holes to run through, and hanging back and surveying looking for a crease that isn't there leads to negative yardage or no gains a lot. Zeke generally runs hard straight ahead, and even if there isn't anything there, he'll hit a defender and get a couple of yards. It's also hard to rely on the run when you are down three scores. Stevenson also doesn't look as engaged or as shifty this year so far.
COACHING: Not sure who to blame if the players don't know what they are supposed to do . . . is that on the players or the coaches? I haven't been a fan of some of the play calls, and as I mentioned earlier, they seem to have gotten away from the usual NE throw underneath and run crossing routes a ton. The only time they are going to get a deep pass is through broken coverage or through deception. None of the receivers are going to outrun the defenders.
Overall, the offense is like trying to drive a car with a flat tire. They can't get anywhere until they fix the flat . . . but on any given play, the flat is a different tire. I don't expect the offense to be this bad all season . . . but that doesn't necessarily mean they will climb to even average. I know people keep banging the drum that the lack of talent at receiver is the main problem, but the systemic problem right now is they can't get everyone to run the right play properly and have 11 guys do the right thing even on a single play very often. They could have better receivers and IMO, right now that wouldn't make any difference. I expect them to look a little better once they get everyone healthy, on the same page, and multiple weeks of practice together. Cutting out the turnovers would help a lot.
Boston
Footballguy
100%...BB post TB12 has been so disappointing...he is still trying to run his offense as if the greatest player in the history of the NFL is there...it is just so perplexing to me...you have one of the greatest minds in NFL history and he thinks he can just plug and play any QB in this system and get the same results as you did with Brady...unfortunately the Pats organization has turned into a bunch of yes men to Bill and that has helped allow this potential train wreck to happen...like Noll, Shula and Landry it just doesn't end well with these legendary HC's...it has a chance to get real ugly in Foxboro if this continues...bottom-line is as much influence as everyone knew Brady had on this team (and everyone knew it was a lot) we underestimated it...by a lot.
rockaction
Footballguy
You know what though, man? You ask Belichick -- and he's said this -- and he knows how special Brady was. He's said he's never had a player understand the game like Tom Brady. Brady (especially in the YouTube clip about Ed Reed) was showing Belichick how to attack Reed on offense, and Belichick is clearly impressed, nods, and says "Yeah, that's what we'll do" or something to that effect. Belichick does not remotely think Brady is a system quarterback and that you can just replace him.
Boston
Footballguy
Of course he doesn't think he is a system QB...that would be asinine...the problem is he thinks he can still run this system (with middling talent at best) with any QB which he cannot.
rockaction
Footballguy
Fair enough. When you say "just plug and play any Qb in this system and get the same results as you did with Brady," that sounded like you were saying Belichick thought Brady was a system quarterback. After all, how could you get the same results with a different player if not a product of that system? But you didn't intend to say that. So cool!
Boston
Footballguy
Definitely not...no way he thought he could duplicate Brady but I do believe he thinks he can still win regularly with the same blueprint and that has been proven to be flawed logic...Brady covered up so much and IMO it is way more than we thought...the Pats have become an undisciplined team since he left and I do not think that it is a coincidence and to think you can legit compete in 2023 with that collection of offensive talent without Brady is beyond head-scratching.
rockaction
Footballguy
You won't catch me in disagreement about this.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
I still think some fans and media types keep trying to compare the results with Brady in his prime vs. a young and inexperienced Mac Jones and expect the same outcome. Brady in his third season (2002) wasn't that great and the team went 9-7.
Brady was Brady and Mac is Mac, and I certainly am not suggesting that Jones is in the same class as Brady.
Jones is in Year 3. The team has gone 17-18 with him as a starter. His QB rating has been 87.9 with 220 passing yards/gm with 41 TD and 28 INT.
After Year 3 with Brady, the team was 20-10. His passer rating was 86.1 with 220 passing yards/gm with 46 TD and 26 INT.
That isn't exactly apples to apples, as passing totals have generally increased over the past 20 years, but early Brady was not the same guy that he eventually turned into. IMO, the team was better in the beginning of the Brady era, but I still think they won their first group of titles with Brady not because of Brady. He was very good at not making critical mistakes and did have the ability to bring them back on occasion (which is something Jones has not shown he can do at all).
And as discussed ad nauseum, there are any number of talented QBs in the league these days (which was not the case bac in the early 2000's). We can all agree that any team will struggle to win in this era averaging 14 ppg, and until they get that up to a more respectable level, they are in deep trouble.
Brady was Brady and Mac is Mac, and I certainly am not suggesting that Jones is in the same class as Brady.
Jones is in Year 3. The team has gone 17-18 with him as a starter. His QB rating has been 87.9 with 220 passing yards/gm with 41 TD and 28 INT.
After Year 3 with Brady, the team was 20-10. His passer rating was 86.1 with 220 passing yards/gm with 46 TD and 26 INT.
That isn't exactly apples to apples, as passing totals have generally increased over the past 20 years, but early Brady was not the same guy that he eventually turned into. IMO, the team was better in the beginning of the Brady era, but I still think they won their first group of titles with Brady not because of Brady. He was very good at not making critical mistakes and did have the ability to bring them back on occasion (which is something Jones has not shown he can do at all).
And as discussed ad nauseum, there are any number of talented QBs in the league these days (which was not the case bac in the early 2000's). We can all agree that any team will struggle to win in this era averaging 14 ppg, and until they get that up to a more respectable level, they are in deep trouble.
Boston
Footballguy
I wholeheartedly disagree that anyone is comparing Mac to in his prime TB12...if they are they are a complete idiot or a foolish pink hat fan.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
Not sure who you listen to that I don't, but I have heard multiple people say that the Pats were regular getting 4,500+ passing yards and 30-35 passing TDs with Brady and Mac is nowhere near that. Yes, that's a true statement, but 25-year-old Brady wasn't putting up those type of numbers. The other baseline people have been using has been Mahomes, who is 28 and in his 7th season. The inference being that the Pats need to throw for 5,000 yards and 40 TD. Sure, that would be nice, but there are a lot of other teams that don't put up those type of numbers and there's only one Mahomes. So when people clamor that NE can't win the way they used to (which I tend to agree with), I'm not sure what they would expect out of Jones if he had better receivers. We can all agree it's more than 14 points a game. But what is a realistic goal for an offense to produce with a 3rd year QB? League average so far is 22.4 ppg.
Boston
Footballguy
I have never, ever heard anyone compare Mac to Mahomes or in-your-prime Brady...no idea where you have heard that but are you telling me any respected media personality has said that...maybe some moron talk radio caller from Medford but that guy was probably drunk...please show me one example of a media member saying this...unless it is an Adam Jones or Mazz being a wiseass if someone said it they would be ridiculed.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
There have been multiple discussions on the NBCSportsBoston TV shoes, whether that be on Felger & Mazz, Early Edition, BST, etc. where the discussion involved what wins in football these days, and it's QBs that throw for 4,800-5,000 yard and 35-40 TD. Then they brought up what the offense has been getting under Jones, and pointed out the obvious that they are nowhere near that. The guests involved in these discussions have been Ted Johnson, Breer, Giardi, and Bedard. Curran may have been on the panel but didn't offer much feedback. Part of those discussions brought up that the offense from the time when Brady was still around, and NE was able to compete and win when they were getting passing numbers similar to that range. That invariably led to talk wondering if Jones can be more than what he has been and if he could even get to average. They never directly compared peak Brady or Mahomes to Jones, but they basically said until they get back to having a high-octane offense they are DOA. But like many people, they have openly questioned whether Mac can be closer to the top of the league than the bottom . . . and then they move on to the lack of talent on offense. Then they all agree that the weapons and OL are poorly lacking.
Boston
Footballguy
Hold on...that is two different things...the overall point you are making is 100% correct and I am glad you are now coming around to the fact that the Pats roster is not built to play offense in 2023...much like the fact Patricia was not fit to be OC it was very apparent in the offseason so no one should be surprised by what is currently happening like they should not have been surprised last year...the point about comparing Mahomes and Brady to Mac is not legit...everyone should agree that the Pats need much more around Mac to become a viable offense but absolutely no one sees him being anywhere near their level because that is insanity...if things broke really right for him he could potentially turn into a Kirk Cousins type/level QB but IMO they have hindered his development and right now that seems like a reach.
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rockaction
Footballguy
Wow. Wittgenstein coming to life. You guys were arguing because you were using the word "compare" differently. Anarchy seems to be saying, in the true definition of the word, that they're comparing Jones to Brady and Mahomes and Jones comes up wanting. Boston, you seem to be thinking that "compare" means to place on the same level, which is ridiculous.
You guys are arguing two totally different points. You're both right.
My work is done here. I'll show myself out.
You guys are arguing two totally different points. You're both right.
My work is done here. I'll show myself out.
Boston
Footballguy
We are now going back to the pre-Parcells era of the Patriots where everything turns into a circus...might be a nice dose of reality for the youngsters who thought losing in the AFC title game was a bad season.
RenegadeRoy
Footballguy
Bad offensive weapons and a bad offensive line. Mac isn't Brady but he also isn't this bad IMO.
ericttspikes
Footballguy
Things move fast in the NFL. I remember Mac’s rookie year where he was looking promising and the storyline was all the Alabama WRs supposedly were saying they preferred Mac over Tua. I offered Tua straight up for Mac in my dynasty league that year and was rejected. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don’t make.
not necessarily disagree, but things move a lot faster in media which influences perception, I cringe every time I hear someone say a team has "found their franchise QB after like 2 good games".
Anarchy99
Footballguy
After listening to some feedback from players and BB on his usual Monday radio interview, there is a strange issue going on. Both the players, coaches, and BB pretty much agree that their practices have been going pretty smoothly. The players appear to know what they need to do, lineup in the right spots, run the right routes, block the right guys, all move on the proper snap count, and execute the play properly. The offense seems capable and cohesive in practice. Then the game comes, and they forget how to play football.
BB was saying the frustrating part is that it isn't one guy that keeps doing the same thing wrong, as that would be a simple fix. Replace that guy until he learns to do things properly. BB mentioned that most offensive plays, 1 or 2 people do something wrong and that kills the entire play. It could be footwork, angle of attack, blocking responsibility, where to lineup, adjusting to the defensive configuration, forgetting the play, not realizing the snap count, not knowing what the audible is to get out of the play, or plain old fundamentals.
Once the offense allows a TD to the opposing defense early in games, the entire team has been getting deflated, and the start of their games have been so bad that the team gets frustrated, and things escalate from there. Bill said it's not one thing or one guy or a quick fix. It's easy to blame Mac for making stupid decisions, but part of the issue is on some of the timing routes they ran the entire week, when run in a game, the receiver is now in a different spot, cut his route off, or made an out cut on what was an in cut. In the time Zappe was in these past two weeks, he airmailed most of his throws and was no better.
Bottom line, everyone in the building has plenty of things to work on, and they all have to work on executing things better. As I mentioned in the game day thread, they've played 5 games so far. The offense has scored 6 touchdowns . . . and allowed 4 touchdowns to opposing defenses. Sadly, we may see them get more conservative just to stop the bleeding in turning the ball over.
Even Bill said some guys are doing well sporadically, but some plays they are nowhere close. Even the veterans have had lapses. IMO, part of the problem is Mac's lack of leadership skills. I think he has a decent knowledge of the game, but his personality is more about himself than rallying the troops. He does not strike me as an alpha leadership type. His interviews all have the same theme . . . we need to do better. Yeah, that's great, but saying it 1,000 times doesn't make it so.
I still think the narrative that they have no talent on offense is getting a little overstated. They should be able to have a series and move the ball much more than they have been. In the I-never-thought-I-would-type-this category, the Patriots have only had ONE DRIVE that reached the red zone IN THE PAST THREE GAMES (38 possessions). Even if they have a horrible, deplorable, incompetent offense, the law of averages will have them do better than that.
BB was saying the frustrating part is that it isn't one guy that keeps doing the same thing wrong, as that would be a simple fix. Replace that guy until he learns to do things properly. BB mentioned that most offensive plays, 1 or 2 people do something wrong and that kills the entire play. It could be footwork, angle of attack, blocking responsibility, where to lineup, adjusting to the defensive configuration, forgetting the play, not realizing the snap count, not knowing what the audible is to get out of the play, or plain old fundamentals.
Once the offense allows a TD to the opposing defense early in games, the entire team has been getting deflated, and the start of their games have been so bad that the team gets frustrated, and things escalate from there. Bill said it's not one thing or one guy or a quick fix. It's easy to blame Mac for making stupid decisions, but part of the issue is on some of the timing routes they ran the entire week, when run in a game, the receiver is now in a different spot, cut his route off, or made an out cut on what was an in cut. In the time Zappe was in these past two weeks, he airmailed most of his throws and was no better.
Bottom line, everyone in the building has plenty of things to work on, and they all have to work on executing things better. As I mentioned in the game day thread, they've played 5 games so far. The offense has scored 6 touchdowns . . . and allowed 4 touchdowns to opposing defenses. Sadly, we may see them get more conservative just to stop the bleeding in turning the ball over.
Even Bill said some guys are doing well sporadically, but some plays they are nowhere close. Even the veterans have had lapses. IMO, part of the problem is Mac's lack of leadership skills. I think he has a decent knowledge of the game, but his personality is more about himself than rallying the troops. He does not strike me as an alpha leadership type. His interviews all have the same theme . . . we need to do better. Yeah, that's great, but saying it 1,000 times doesn't make it so.
I still think the narrative that they have no talent on offense is getting a little overstated. They should be able to have a series and move the ball much more than they have been. In the I-never-thought-I-would-type-this category, the Patriots have only had ONE DRIVE that reached the red zone IN THE PAST THREE GAMES (38 possessions). Even if they have a horrible, deplorable, incompetent offense, the law of averages will have them do better than that.
Anarchy99
Footballguy
With whom? Zappe is worse than Jones is.
Boston
Footballguy
Like this entire roster there is not a Plan B...Mac is a mess and Zappe isn't the answer...if Mac is losing the locker-room (I am not saying he is) than you have to make a change but with this piss-poor roster it won't matter...this season is over and their QB of the future is not on the team.
Balco
Footballguy
Is he though?
Patriots aren’t going anywhere this year so I think at some point they should go with Zappe for a stretch where he can get starter reps in practices.
Not saying he is future but Jones certainly is not.
seemed like he had some good games last year but seems to have regressed, is that just defenses catching up to him? maybe he just played crappy teams or was in catch up mode?
TampaMike19
Footballguy
Bill needed Purdy to execute is Brady-style offense. Mac ain't it.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
Or maybe the Pats offense as a whole is worse than it was last year.
Boone22
Footballguy
The Athletic’s Jeff Howe reports Patriots owner Robert Kraft “has grown frustrated, if not downright angry” over the team’s struggles.
Kraft, according to Howe, does not subscribe to the idea that Belichick is untouchable as New England’s coach. Kraft has grown weary of the team’s mediocrity after two straight blowout losses to the Cowboys and Saints, the latter game a 34-0 disaster at home. The Pats are second to last in point differential (-76). Kraft, per Howe, has questioned Bill Belichick’s refusal to invest a high-end wide receiver in a league that has trended toward the pass in recent decades. That approach worked with Tom Brady; it has not worked with Mac Jones. More lopsided losses could lead to an unthinkable shakeup in New England.
Kraft, according to Howe, does not subscribe to the idea that Belichick is untouchable as New England’s coach. Kraft has grown weary of the team’s mediocrity after two straight blowout losses to the Cowboys and Saints, the latter game a 34-0 disaster at home. The Pats are second to last in point differential (-76). Kraft, per Howe, has questioned Bill Belichick’s refusal to invest a high-end wide receiver in a league that has trended toward the pass in recent decades. That approach worked with Tom Brady; it has not worked with Mac Jones. More lopsided losses could lead to an unthinkable shakeup in New England.
eighsse2
Footballguy
But it is higher.
dipandglide
Footballguy
Big whiff. Jones is better than what he's showing. I hope he gets another chance with more talent surrounding him.
Hot Sauce Guy
Footballguy
That interception was the laziest pick on one of the worst throws I’ve ever seen.
I don’t know how that dude I saw could possibly be better than what I saw. Because good lord.
