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Question for Roman Catholics (1 Viewer)

Please stop the filibuster stuff. It was fun for about 1 post with recipies but not anymore. Please stop.J
I disagree. When someone starts an thread that on its face is a fishing trip, what better than an good ol american filibuster to calm the waters.
Sorry that people feel like I was fishing. It genuinely bothered me and thought that perhaps it bothered some Catholics. Clearly I was wrong. I'll stop asking these questions to Catholics.
Yeah right.
He's a coward. He starts stuff like this, then disappears when he gets :kicksrock:He posted a quote out of context that clearly misrepresented the intent of what the Bishops were doing. When he got called on it, he retreated without admitting anything.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Cross, I reckon most Catholics don't really worry too much about the bishops telling them not to vote for pro-choice people. In the same token, many Catholics are pro-life and would vote that way anyway.
Thanks for the response. Are you Catholic? I understand that many will just ignore it, but does the way it was worded bother you at all? Why tie salvation into politics?
No...it does not bother me because I properly understood the message.
So explain to me the proper interpretation of the message.
The message to take away is that most organized religious faiths do this to one degree or another. I know first hand that it happens in various Christian denominations, and I've had disucssions with both Jewish & Moslem friends it's happened there. The problem lies more with organized religions in general, not Catholicism in particular. You have constant trouble grasping that point - of course your sect may be holier than the rest, I don't know.I will say that that are some sects - like the Quakers - where I'd be shocked if this happened.
 
Please stop the filibuster stuff. It was fun for about 1 post with recipies but not anymore. Please stop.J
I disagree. When someone starts an thread that on its face is a fishing trip, what better than an good ol american filibuster to calm the waters.
Sorry that people feel like I was fishing. It genuinely bothered me and thought that perhaps it bothered some Catholics. Clearly I was wrong. I'll stop asking these questions to Catholics.
Yeah right.
He's a coward. He starts stuff like this, then disappears when he gets :goodposting:He posted a quote out of context that clearly misrepresented the intent of what the Bishops were doing. When he got called on it, he retreated without admitting anything.
So he is related to LHUCKS?
 
Please stop the filibuster stuff. It was fun for about 1 post with recipies but not anymore. Please stop.J
I disagree. When someone starts an thread that on its face is a fishing trip, what better than an good ol american filibuster to calm the waters.
Sorry that people feel like I was fishing. It genuinely bothered me and thought that perhaps it bothered some Catholics. Clearly I was wrong. I'll stop asking these questions to Catholics.
Yeah right.
He's a coward. He starts stuff like this, then disappears when he gets :goodposting:He posted a quote out of context that clearly misrepresented the intent of what the Bishops were doing. When he got called on it, he retreated without admitting anything.
So he is related to LHUCKS?
LHUCKS (mostly) does it because he (wrongly) thinks it is funny (I hope, at least).
 
So no Roman Catholics are bothered by the fact that the bishops have tied their salvation to how they vote?
Nope.Because I realize those Bishops have no control over what my creator thinks of me.HTH
Yeah, but you can't communicate with God except through the clergy, remember?
This is the stupid thing my brother, an ex catholic, once said to me....I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about but i'll bite :goodposting: please
 
Please stop the filibuster stuff. It was fun for about 1 post with recipies but not anymore. Please stop.J
I disagree. When someone starts an thread that on its face is a fishing trip, what better than an good ol american filibuster to calm the waters.
Sorry that people feel like I was fishing. It genuinely bothered me and thought that perhaps it bothered some Catholics. Clearly I was wrong. I'll stop asking these questions to Catholics.
Yeah right.
He's a coward. He starts stuff like this, then disappears when he gets :confused:He posted a quote out of context that clearly misrepresented the intent of what the Bishops were doing. When he got called on it, he retreated without admitting anything.
Oh I've dealt with him in the past and know exactly what he is..... Your description is too kind.
 
No, it doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that you:

a) Took one sentence out of context to try to lead a fishing expedition.

b) make it sound like Catholics are the only religion where leaders try to sway voter opinion.

Larger snippet-

In the midst of the 2008 presidential campaign season, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops overwhelmingly endorsed an updated statement on faith and politics designed to help Catholics fulfill their political responsibilities to vote and run for office.

"It is not a voter guide," said Bishop Nicholas DiMarzio of Brooklyn, N.Y., who presented a final version of the statement before the conference here. "It calls us as bishops to help form consciences for political life, not tell people how to vote or whom to vote for or against."

The statement, titled "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship: A Call to Political Responsibility," outlined the bishops' consensus on various topics, such as opposition to same-sex marriage and the death penalty, while providing a "consistent moral framework" for assessing political platforms.

"A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter's intent is to support that position," said the text. "In such cases, a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil."

The bishops acknowledged there may be times when Catholics reject a candidate's "unacceptable position" on one issue, but vote for the candidate anyway. The bishops said such a choice would "be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental moral evil."

"Unless we're going to give up our right to vote . . . it may be that we never find the perfect candidate," said Bishop Michael J. Sheridan of Colorado Springs, Colo. "So there's where we have to try to decide which of the candidates do we think is at least going to propose and move toward the greatest good."

The bishops' statement went beyond earthly concerns, saying political choices "may affect the individuals' salvation."

"One of the responsibilities that I believe we have as bishops is to let our people know that the choices and the decisions that they make in their lives here on Earth do impact their salvation," said Bishop Samuel J. Aquila of Fargo, N.D. "And we as bishops are really called to be about the salvation of souls, eternal life, and for Catholics who choose to support intrinsic evils . . . they may be putting their salvation at risk."

Bishops said the reference to salvation is meant not to cast judgment on individuals but make them aware of the possible effects of their choices.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...story?track=rssTo me, what they're saying is don't vote for somebody if the primary you're voting for them is because they're pro-choice.

In my personal experience, I've never had a pastor tell me to vote for a person or even a party. the Catholic Church here in the US really can't pick a party because the Church is pro-Life which the Republicans usually champion but they're also for social programs which is usually the Democrats cause.

Cograts on your expedition!
Dont confuse him with facts.Anyone remember the out of context bashing that went on when the Pope made a statement about other faiths?
"Political choices faced by citizens have an impact on general peace and prosperity and also may affect the individual's salvation," the bishops said.
That's a direct quote from the statement put out by the Bishops. I just can't believe that a Catholic wouldn't be outraged by their leadership tying their salvation to their voting choices.
They aren't tying anything to anything. Catholic Priests, Bishops, or Pope don't grant salvation.Seriously, what is wrong with you. Do you you think you are doing a good Christian thing putting your Baptist prejudice into a RCC dialog?

 
redman said:
sho nuff said:
CrossEyed said:
sho nuff said:
JaxBill said:
No, it doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that you:

a) Took one sentence out of context to try to lead a fishing expedition.

b) make it sound like Catholics are the only religion where leaders try to sway voter opinion.

Larger snippet-

In the midst of the 2008 presidential campaign season, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops overwhelmingly endorsed an updated statement on faith and politics designed to help Catholics fulfill their political responsibilities to vote and run for office.

"It is not a voter guide," said Bishop Nicholas DiMarzio of Brooklyn, N.Y., who presented a final version of the statement before the conference here. "It calls us as bishops to help form consciences for political life, not tell people how to vote or whom to vote for or against."

The statement, titled "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship: A Call to Political Responsibility," outlined the bishops' consensus on various topics, such as opposition to same-sex marriage and the death penalty, while providing a "consistent moral framework" for assessing political platforms.

"A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter's intent is to support that position," said the text. "In such cases, a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil."

The bishops acknowledged there may be times when Catholics reject a candidate's "unacceptable position" on one issue, but vote for the candidate anyway. The bishops said such a choice would "be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental moral evil."

"Unless we're going to give up our right to vote . . . it may be that we never find the perfect candidate," said Bishop Michael J. Sheridan of Colorado Springs, Colo. "So there's where we have to try to decide which of the candidates do we think is at least going to propose and move toward the greatest good."

The bishops' statement went beyond earthly concerns, saying political choices "may affect the individuals' salvation."

"One of the responsibilities that I believe we have as bishops is to let our people know that the choices and the decisions that they make in their lives here on Earth do impact their salvation," said Bishop Samuel J. Aquila of Fargo, N.D. "And we as bishops are really called to be about the salvation of souls, eternal life, and for Catholics who choose to support intrinsic evils . . . they may be putting their salvation at risk."

Bishops said the reference to salvation is meant not to cast judgment on individuals but make them aware of the possible effects of their choices.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...story?track=rssTo me, what they're saying is don't vote for somebody if the primary you're voting for them is because they're pro-choice.

In my personal experience, I've never had a pastor tell me to vote for a person or even a party. the Catholic Church here in the US really can't pick a party because the Church is pro-Life which the Republicans usually champion but they're also for social programs which is usually the Democrats cause.

Cograts on your expedition!
Dont confuse him with facts.Anyone remember the out of context bashing that went on when the Pope made a statement about other faiths?
"Political choices faced by citizens have an impact on general peace and prosperity and also may affect the individual's salvation," the bishops said.
That's a direct quote from the statement put out by the Bishops. I just can't believe that a Catholic wouldn't be outraged by their leadership tying their salvation to their voting choices.
And I just cannot believe you take one quote out of context and don't understand the overall message being sent.And try to think you understand about what Catholics think.

Here is a tip...as someone else mentioned...tend to your own flock...and quit worrying about the Catholics.

We are quite fine without your ignorance laced messages.
Your particular sect is not above discussion. Get over yourself and your defensiveness. He's provided and direct quote and you're avoiding responding on the merits like the plague.I'm already on record in this thread as saying that Evangelicals have made a huge movement out of this, so Catholics aren't getting singled out here on this issue. I do find the quote interesting though, given that the Catholic Church has historically avoided intrusion into American politics.
you don't know what you are talking about.
 
quickhands said:
redman said:
sho nuff said:
CrossEyed said:
So no Roman Catholics are bothered by the fact that the bishops have tied their salvation to how they vote?
Nope.Because I realize those Bishops have no control over what my creator thinks of me.

HTH
Yeah, but you can't communicate with God except through the clergy, remember?
This is the stupid thing my brother, an ex catholic, once said to me....I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about but i'll bite :shrug: please
Minister of the Sacrament

Catholics believe that no priest, as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; however, God can and does exercise it through the Catholic priesthood[1]. Catholics believe God exercises the power of forgiveness by means of the sacrament of penance, which can be administered validly by every validly ordained priest or bishop having jurisdiction to absolve the penitent[2].
Link
 
quickhands said:
redman said:
sho nuff said:
CrossEyed said:
So no Roman Catholics are bothered by the fact that the bishops have tied their salvation to how they vote?
Nope.Because I realize those Bishops have no control over what my creator thinks of me.

HTH
Yeah, but you can't communicate with God except through the clergy, remember?
This is the stupid thing my brother, an ex catholic, once said to me....I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about but i'll bite :yucky: please
Minister of the Sacrament

Catholics believe that no priest, as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; however, God can and does exercise it through the Catholic priesthood[1]. Catholics believe God exercises the power of forgiveness by means of the sacrament of penance, which can be administered validly by every validly ordained priest or bishop having jurisdiction to absolve the penitent[2].
Link
Where in that does it say I cannot communicate with God without a Priest?I just took it as a sarcastic joke...but did you really mean that?

 
redman said:
sho nuff said:
CrossEyed said:
sho nuff said:
JaxBill said:
No, it doesn't bother me. What does bother me is that you:

a) Took one sentence out of context to try to lead a fishing expedition.

b) make it sound like Catholics are the only religion where leaders try to sway voter opinion.

Larger snippet-

In the midst of the 2008 presidential campaign season, the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops overwhelmingly endorsed an updated statement on faith and politics designed to help Catholics fulfill their political responsibilities to vote and run for office.

"It is not a voter guide," said Bishop Nicholas DiMarzio of Brooklyn, N.Y., who presented a final version of the statement before the conference here. "It calls us as bishops to help form consciences for political life, not tell people how to vote or whom to vote for or against."

The statement, titled "Forming Consciences for Faithful Citizenship: A Call to Political Responsibility," outlined the bishops' consensus on various topics, such as opposition to same-sex marriage and the death penalty, while providing a "consistent moral framework" for assessing political platforms.

"A Catholic cannot vote for a candidate who takes a position in favor of an intrinsic evil, such as abortion or racism, if the voter's intent is to support that position," said the text. "In such cases, a Catholic would be guilty of formal cooperation in grave evil."

The bishops acknowledged there may be times when Catholics reject a candidate's "unacceptable position" on one issue, but vote for the candidate anyway. The bishops said such a choice would "be permissible only for truly grave moral reasons, not to advance narrow interests or partisan preferences or to ignore a fundamental moral evil."

"Unless we're going to give up our right to vote . . . it may be that we never find the perfect candidate," said Bishop Michael J. Sheridan of Colorado Springs, Colo. "So there's where we have to try to decide which of the candidates do we think is at least going to propose and move toward the greatest good."

The bishops' statement went beyond earthly concerns, saying political choices "may affect the individuals' salvation."

"One of the responsibilities that I believe we have as bishops is to let our people know that the choices and the decisions that they make in their lives here on Earth do impact their salvation," said Bishop Samuel J. Aquila of Fargo, N.D. "And we as bishops are really called to be about the salvation of souls, eternal life, and for Catholics who choose to support intrinsic evils . . . they may be putting their salvation at risk."

Bishops said the reference to salvation is meant not to cast judgment on individuals but make them aware of the possible effects of their choices.
http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/na...story?track=rssTo me, what they're saying is don't vote for somebody if the primary you're voting for them is because they're pro-choice.

In my personal experience, I've never had a pastor tell me to vote for a person or even a party. the Catholic Church here in the US really can't pick a party because the Church is pro-Life which the Republicans usually champion but they're also for social programs which is usually the Democrats cause.

Cograts on your expedition!
Dont confuse him with facts.Anyone remember the out of context bashing that went on when the Pope made a statement about other faiths?
"Political choices faced by citizens have an impact on general peace and prosperity and also may affect the individual's salvation," the bishops said.
That's a direct quote from the statement put out by the Bishops. I just can't believe that a Catholic wouldn't be outraged by their leadership tying their salvation to their voting choices.
And I just cannot believe you take one quote out of context and don't understand the overall message being sent.And try to think you understand about what Catholics think.

Here is a tip...as someone else mentioned...tend to your own flock...and quit worrying about the Catholics.

We are quite fine without your ignorance laced messages.
Your particular sect is not above discussion. Get over yourself and your defensiveness. He's provided and direct quote and you're avoiding responding on the merits like the plague.I'm already on record in this thread as saying that Evangelicals have made a huge movement out of this, so Catholics aren't getting singled out here on this issue. I do find the quote interesting though, given that the Catholic Church has historically avoided intrusion into American politics.
you don't know what you are talking about.
Definitely too much of a blanket statement on my part. I was focused upon contrasting it from the Evangelical activities of the last 25 years when I wrote that.
 
CrossEyed said:
Lester Burnham said:
Joe Bryant said:
Please stop the filibuster stuff. It was fun for about 1 post with recipies but not anymore. Please stop.J
I disagree. When someone starts an thread that on its face is a fishing trip, what better than an good ol american filibuster to calm the waters.
Sorry that people feel like I was fishing. It genuinely bothered me and thought that perhaps it bothered some Catholics. Clearly I was wrong. I'll stop asking these questions to Catholics.
My prayers have been answered. Thank you for your intercession, Mary mother of the church!!!(now my experience with CE is that the last time he said this he quit the sight for a couple months and then started asking these kind of questions. So my guess is that he will ask them again)
 
CrossEyed said:
Lester Burnham said:
Joe Bryant said:
Please stop the filibuster stuff. It was fun for about 1 post with recipies but not anymore. Please stop.J
I disagree. When someone starts an thread that on its face is a fishing trip, what better than an good ol american filibuster to calm the waters.
Sorry that people feel like I was fishing. It genuinely bothered me and thought that perhaps it bothered some Catholics. Clearly I was wrong. I'll stop asking these questions to Catholics.
My prayers have been answered. Thank you for your intercession, Mary mother of the church!!!(now my experience with CE is that the last time he said this he quit the sight for a couple months and then started asking these kind of questions. So my guess is that he will ask them again)
Of course he will.What he won't do is post in the Intelligent Design on Trial thread.
 
quickhands said:
redman said:
sho nuff said:
CrossEyed said:
So no Roman Catholics are bothered by the fact that the bishops have tied their salvation to how they vote?
Nope.Because I realize those Bishops have no control over what my creator thinks of me.

HTH
Yeah, but you can't communicate with God except through the clergy, remember?
This is the stupid thing my brother, an ex catholic, once said to me....I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about but i'll bite :confused: please
Minister of the Sacrament

Catholics believe that no priest, as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; however, God can and does exercise it through the Catholic priesthood[1]. Catholics believe God exercises the power of forgiveness by means of the sacrament of penance, which can be administered validly by every validly ordained priest or bishop having jurisdiction to absolve the penitent[2].
Link
Not an expert here, but are they saying that you can only get it via a messenger, or that you CAN get it from a messenger if you want.
 
quickhands said:
redman said:
sho nuff said:
CrossEyed said:
So no Roman Catholics are bothered by the fact that the bishops have tied their salvation to how they vote?
Nope.Because I realize those Bishops have no control over what my creator thinks of me.

HTH
Yeah, but you can't communicate with God except through the clergy, remember?
This is the stupid thing my brother, an ex catholic, once said to me....I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about but i'll bite :nerd: please
Minister of the Sacrament

Catholics believe that no priest, as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; however, God can and does exercise it through the Catholic priesthood[1]. Catholics believe God exercises the power of forgiveness by means of the sacrament of penance, which can be administered validly by every validly ordained priest or bishop having jurisdiction to absolve the penitent[2].
Link
sorry, Maybe you can help me. Where exactly does the Catholic Church Teach that It is the only way. Because I'm missing that. I'm missing the word exclusively
 
CrossEyed said:
Lester Burnham said:
Joe Bryant said:
Please stop the filibuster stuff. It was fun for about 1 post with recipies but not anymore. Please stop.J
I disagree. When someone starts an thread that on its face is a fishing trip, what better than an good ol american filibuster to calm the waters.
Sorry that people feel like I was fishing. It genuinely bothered me and thought that perhaps it bothered some Catholics. Clearly I was wrong. I'll stop asking these questions to Catholics.
My prayers have been answered. Thank you for your intercession, Mary mother of the church!!!
:nerd:
 
quickhands said:
redman said:
sho nuff said:
CrossEyed said:
So no Roman Catholics are bothered by the fact that the bishops have tied their salvation to how they vote?
Nope.Because I realize those Bishops have no control over what my creator thinks of me.

HTH
Yeah, but you can't communicate with God except through the clergy, remember?
This is the stupid thing my brother, an ex catholic, once said to me....I don't think you have any idea what you are talking about but i'll bite :link: please
Minister of the Sacrament

Catholics believe that no priest, as an individual man, however pious or learned, has power to forgive sins. This power belongs to God alone; however, God can and does exercise it through the Catholic priesthood[1]. Catholics believe God exercises the power of forgiveness by means of the sacrament of penance, which can be administered validly by every validly ordained priest or bishop having jurisdiction to absolve the penitent[2].
Link
Not an expert here, but are they saying that you can only get it via a messenger, or that you CAN get it from a messenger if you want.
its available if you want to go that route. Despite what many here would like to think about the Catholic Church. The RCC does not Limit God.
 
Somebody needs to get the message to CrossEyed that pride is one of the 7 deadly sins. Dude is possibly the biggest egomaniac on this board.

 
I don't get all the hate for CrossEyed. He posted what seemed like a legitimate and sincere question, and instead of answering his question most of the posters attacked him and played the "everybody does it" card.

I wonder how this thread would have gone if it had been started by someone else.

 
I don't get all the hate for CrossEyed. He posted what seemed like a legitimate and sincere question, and instead of answering his question most of the posters attacked him and played the "everybody does it" card.

I wonder how this thread would have gone if it had been started by someone else.
Really?
 
I don't get all the hate for CrossEyed. He posted what seemed like a legitimate and sincere question, and instead of answering his question most of the posters attacked him and played the "everybody does it" card.I wonder how this thread would have gone if it had been started by someone else.
Seems there's a moral to this story somewhere, and I seem to have heard it before. Something about a little boy, crying, and a wolf.
 
I don't get all the hate for CrossEyed. He posted what seemed like a legitimate and sincere question, and instead of answering his question most of the posters attacked him and played the "everybody does it" card.I wonder how this thread would have gone if it had been started by someone else.
the "everybody does it card" was not made as a cop out, it was made as it is normal in america.My guess is you have had little contact with CE.Your terms "legitimate and sincere" in reference to a CE question in a Catholic thread that he started is laughable. CE routinely attacks the Catholic Church. A enjoys taking things out of context. When he is confronted he often ignores the person who has engaged him and moves on to another poster. I think you should also look at the broad based attacks that CE gets when he posts these types of topics. Even posters who may not be fond of the RCC still light into him.I think CE asks fair questions, but he asks them in unfair manner, then intentionally misses the point.
 
Would all Catholic FBGs please send a PM to CrossEyed renouncing your faith? You don't even have to mean it, and what a wonderful holiday gift it would be for our GB.

TIA

 
I don't get all the hate for CrossEyed. He posted what seemed like a legitimate and sincere question, and instead of answering his question most of the posters attacked him and played the "everybody does it" card.

I wonder how this thread would have gone if it had been started by someone else.
Really?
Really. The quote he provided seems to link salvation to voting, even when placed in context of the full article. I was interested in hearing the opinions of some Catholics on this, and got a little of it somewhere between the filibusters and insults. I would've liked to hear more.
 
I don't get all the hate for CrossEyed. He posted what seemed like a legitimate and sincere question, and instead of answering his question most of the posters attacked him and played the "everybody does it" card.

I wonder how this thread would have gone if it had been started by someone else.
Really?
Really. The quote he provided seems to link salvation to voting, even when placed in context of the full article. I was interested in hearing the opinions of some Catholics on this, and got a little of it somewhere between the filibusters and insults. I would've liked to hear more.
Maybe you just don't read very well.
 
I don't get all the hate for CrossEyed. He posted what seemed like a legitimate and sincere question, and instead of answering his question most of the posters attacked him and played the "everybody does it" card.

I wonder how this thread would have gone if it had been started by someone else.
Really?
Really. The quote he provided seems to link salvation to voting, even when placed in context of the full article. I was interested in hearing the opinions of some Catholics on this, and got a little of it somewhere between the filibusters and insults. I would've liked to hear more.
Maybe you just don't read very well.
There's a good joke in here, but I'll refrain.
 
I don't get all the hate for CrossEyed. He posted what seemed like a legitimate and sincere question, and instead of answering his question most of the posters attacked him and played the "everybody does it" card.

I wonder how this thread would have gone if it had been started by someone else.
Really?
Really. The quote he provided seems to link salvation to voting, even when placed in context of the full article. I was interested in hearing the opinions of some Catholics on this, and got a little of it somewhere between the filibusters and insults. I would've liked to hear more.
Fair question. First off, Catholics don't believe in the "once saved/always saved" belief. We have responsibilities as Christians. The Bishops where reminding us of that. I think the statement stands on its own. The Bishops where pointing out that AS Christians we have to BE Christians, and that we need to be informed and to make the best decision that we can.Then the part that made CE upset was reminding the individuals that make up the the RCC that even though we may go to church and say we are Catholics our Salvation is not assured.

 
I don't get all the hate for CrossEyed. He posted what seemed like a legitimate and sincere question, and instead of answering his question most of the posters attacked him and played the "everybody does it" card.

I wonder how this thread would have gone if it had been started by someone else.
Really?
Really. The quote he provided seems to link salvation to voting, even when placed in context of the full article. I was interested in hearing the opinions of some Catholics on this, and got a little of it somewhere between the filibusters and insults. I would've liked to hear more.
Fair question. First off, Catholics don't believe in the "once saved/always saved" belief. We have responsibilities as Christians. The Bishops where reminding us of that. I think the statement stands on its own. The Bishops where pointing out that AS Christians we have to BE Christians, and that we need to be informed and to make the best decision that we can.Then the part that made CE upset was reminding the individuals that make up the the RCC that even though we may go to church and say we are Catholics our Salvation is not assured.
Where were you two pages ago? This is the kind of response I was hoping for.
 
I don't get all the hate for CrossEyed. He posted what seemed like a legitimate and sincere question, and instead of answering his question most of the posters attacked him and played the "everybody does it" card.

I wonder how this thread would have gone if it had been started by someone else.
Really?
Really. The quote he provided seems to link salvation to voting, even when placed in context of the full article. I was interested in hearing the opinions of some Catholics on this, and got a little of it somewhere between the filibusters and insults. I would've liked to hear more.
Fair question. First off, Catholics don't believe in the "once saved/always saved" belief. We have responsibilities as Christians. The Bishops where reminding us of that. I think the statement stands on its own. The Bishops where pointing out that AS Christians we have to BE Christians, and that we need to be informed and to make the best decision that we can.Then the part that made CE upset was reminding the individuals that make up the the RCC that even though we may go to church and say we are Catholics our Salvation is not assured.
Where were you two pages ago? This is the kind of response I was hoping for.
Post #33

 
CrossEyed said:
So no Roman Catholics are bothered by the fact that the bishops have tied their salvation to how they vote?
It doesn't bother me. The bishop has a fancy title, but, if you are a believer, he is not who you ultimately answer to. If that makes me a bad Catholic, so be it.
:goodposting: That why I don't confess in church. When I do something stupid, I look up to the heavens and say, "My bad." He/She knows what I mean.
 
Stop with the filibuster.

First of all, to claim that this is the first time this has happened is idiotic. Jerry Falwell made a career out of it. Where do you think the "religious right" came from?

Second, I've often wondered how much more comfortable Catholics are voting for Democrats who tend to favor a large, centralized federal government given the fact that their church is structured the same way, as opposed to Protestants who tend to have more locally controlled religious institutions.
'WTF is a filibuster?

Never mind, found it:

Filibuster

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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For other uses see Filibuster (disambiguation).

As a form of obstructionism in a legislature or other decision making body, a filibuster is an attempt to extend debate upon a proposal in order to delay or completely prevent a vote on its passage. The term first came into use in the United States Senate, where Senate rules permit a senator, or a series of senators, to speak for as long as they wish and on any topic they choose, unless a supermajority of three-fifths of the Senate (60 Senators, if all 100 seats are filled) brings debate to a close by invoking cloture.[1] In the United Kingdom Parliament, a bill defeated by this maneuver is said to have been "talked out".

The term 'filibuster' was first used in 1851. It was derived from the Spanish filibustero meaning 'pirate' or 'freebooter'. This term had in turn evolved from the French word flibustier, which itself evolved from the Dutch vrijbuiter (freebooter). This term was applied at the time to American adventurers, mostly from Southern states, who sought to overthrow the governments of Central American states, and was transferred to the users of the filibuster, seen as a tactic for pirating or hijacking debate.[2]

Contents [hide]

1 United States

1.1 Procedural filibuster

1.2 Preparations

1.3 History

1.3.1 Early use

1.3.2 The 20th century and the emergence of cloture

1.3.3 Current practice

1.3.4 The filibuster today

2 Canada

2.1 Bill 103 - The Megacity Bill

3 UK Parliament

3.1 Filibusters in other legislatures on the British model

4 France

5 Fictional representations of filibusters

6 See also

7 References

7.1 Notes

7.2 Media

[edit] United States

[edit] Procedural filibuster

In current practice, Senate Rule 22 permits filibusters, in which actual continuous floor speeches are not required, although the Senate Majority Leader may require an actual traditional filibuster if he or she so chooses. This threat of a filibuster can therefore be as powerful as an actual filibuster. Previously the filibustering senator(s) could delay voting only by making an endless speech. Currently they need only indicate that they are filibustering, thereby preventing the senate from moving on to other business until the motion is withdrawn or enough votes are gathered for cloture.

[edit] Preparations

Preparations for a filibuster can be very elaborate. Sometimes cots are brought into the hallways or cloakrooms for senators to sleep on. According to Newsweek, "They used to call it 'taking to the diaper,' a phrase that referred to the preparation undertaken by a prudent senator before an extended filibuster. Strom Thurmond visited a steam room before his filibuster in order to dehydrate himself so he could drink without urinating. An aide stood by in the cloakroom with a pail in case of emergency."[3]

Filibusters have become much more common in recent decades. Twice as many filibusters took place in the 1991-1992 legislative session as took place in the entire nineteenth century.[4]

[edit] History

[edit] Early use

In 1789, the first U.S. Senate adopted rules allowing the Senate "to move the previous question," ending debate and proceeding to a vote. In 1806, Aaron Burr argued that the motion regarding the previous question was redundant, had only been exercised once in the preceding four years,[5] and should be eliminated. The Senate agreed, and thus the potentiality for a filibuster sprang into being. Because the Senate created no alternative mechanism for terminating debate, the filibuster became an option for delay and blocking of floor votes.

The filibuster remained a solely theoretical option until 1841, when the Democratic minority tried to block a bank bill favored by the Whig majority by using this political tactic. Senator Henry Clay, a promoter of the bill, threatened to change Senate rules to allow the majority to close debate. Missouri Senator Thomas Hart Benton rebuked Clay for trying to stifle the Senate's right to unlimited debate and he was unsuccessful in eliminating the filibuster with a simple majority vote.

[edit] The 20th century and the emergence of cloture

In 1917 a rule allowing for the cloture of debate (ending a filibuster) was adopted by the Democratic Senate[6] at the urging of President Woodrow Wilson.[7] From 1917 to 1949, the requirement for cloture was two-thirds of those voting.

In 1946 Southern Democrats blocked a vote on a bill proposed by Democrat Dennis Chavez of New Mexico (S. 101) that would have created a permanent Fair Employment Practices Committee (FEPC) to prevent discrimination in the work place. The filibuster lasted weeks, and Senator Chavez was forced to remove the bill from consideration after a failed cloture vote even though he had enough votes to pass the bill. As civil rights loomed on the Senate agenda, this rule was revised in 1949 to allow cloture on any measure or motion by two-thirds of the entire Senate membership; in 1959 the threshold was restored to two-thirds of those voting. After a series of filibusters led by Southern Democrats in the 1960s over civil rights legislation, the Democrat-controlled Senate[6] in 1975 revised its cloture rule so that three-fifths of the Senators sworn (usually 60 senators) could limit debate. Changes to Senate rules still require two-thirds of Senators voting. Despite this rule, the filibuster or the threat of a filibuster remains an important tactic that allows a minority to affect legislation. Strom Thurmond (D/R-SC) set a record in 1957 by filibustering the Civil Rights Act of 1957 for 24 hours and 18 minutes, although the bill ultimately passed. Thurmond broke the previous record of 22 hours and 26 minutes set by Wayne Morse (I-OR) in 1953 protesting the Tidelands Oil legislation.

The filibuster has tremendously increased in frequency of use since the 1960s. In the 1960s, no Senate term had more than seven filibusters. In the first decade of the 21st century, no Senate term had fewer than 49 filibusters. The 1999-2002 Senate terms both had 58 filibusters. [1]

[edit] Current practice

Filibusters do not occur in legislative bodies in which time for debate is strictly limited by procedural rules. The House did not adopt rules restricting debate until 1842, and the filibuster was used in that body before that time.

Budget bills are governed under special rules called "reconciliation" which do not allow filibusters. Reconciliation once only applied to bills that would reduce the budget deficit, but since 1996 it has been used for all matters related to budget issues.

A filibuster can be defeated by the governing party if they leave the debated issue on the agenda indefinitely, without adding anything else. Strom Thurmond's attempt to filibuster the Civil Rights Act was defeated when Senate Majority Leader Lyndon Johnson refused to refer any further business to the Senate, which required the filibuster to be kept up indefinitely. Instead, the opponents were all given a chance to speak and the matter eventually was forced to a vote.

According to a Historical Moments Essay on the U.S. Senate website, the Republican Party was the first to initiate a filibuster against a judicial nominee in 1968, forcing Democratic president Lyndon Johnson to withdraw the nomination of Associate Supreme Court Justice Abe Fortas to be chief justice.

[edit] The filibuster today

In 2005, a group of Republican senators led by Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN), responding to the Democrats' threat to filibuster some judicial nominees of President George W. Bush to prevent a vote on the nominations, floated the idea of making a rules change to eliminate filibusters on judicial nominees with the justification that the current Senate rules allowing such filibusters are unconstitutional. Senator Trent Lott, the junior Republican senator from Mississippi, named the plan the "nuclear option." Republican leaders later referred to the plan as the "constitutional option," though opponents and some supporters of the plan continue to use "nuclear option."

On May 23, 14 senators — seven Democrats and seven Republicans — led by John McCain (R-AZ) and Ben Nelson (D-NE) brokered a deal to allow three of Bush's nominees a vote on the Senate floor while leaving two others subject to a filibuster. The seven Democrats promised not to filibuster Bush's nominees except under "extraordinary circumstances," while the seven Republicans promised to oppose the nuclear option unless they thought a nominee was being filibustered that wasn't under "extraordinary circumstances." Specifically, the Democrats promised to stop the filibuster on Priscilla Owen, Janice Rogers Brown and William H. Pryor, Jr., who had all been filibustered in the Senate before. In return, the Republicans would stop the effort to ban the filibuster for judicial nominees. "Extraordinary circumstances" was not defined in advance. The term was open for interpretation by each Senator, but the Republicans and Democrats would have had to agree on what it meant if any nominee were to be blocked. Senator John Kerry led a failed filibuster against Judge (now Justice) Alito in January 2006, calling Alito's nomination an "extraordinary circumstance."

This agreement expired at the end of the second session of the 109th United States Congress (ended January 3, 2007).

Senate Democratic leadership allowed a filibuster on July 17, 2007 on debate about a variety of amendments to the 2008 defense authorization bill H.R. 1585, the Defense Authorization bill, specifically the Levin-Reed amendment S.AMDT.2087 to H.R.1585. The filibuster had been threatened by Republican leadership to prompt a cloture vote.

[edit] Canada

[edit] Bill 103 - The Megacity Bill

A unique form of filibuster was pioneered by the Ontario New Democratic Party in the Legislative Assembly of Ontario in April 1997. To protest Progressive Conservative government legislation that would amalgamate the city of Toronto, Ontario, the small New Democratic caucus introduced 11,500 amendments to the megacity bill, created on computers with mail merge functionality. Each amendment would name a street in the proposed city, and provide that public hearings be held into the megacity with residents of the street invited to participate. The Ontario Liberal Party also joined the filibuster with a smaller series of amendments; a typical Liberal amendment would give a historical designation to a named street. The NDP then added another series of over 700 amendments, each proposing a different date for the bill to come into force.

The filibuster began on April 2 with the Abbeywood Trail amendment and occupied the legislature day and night, the members alternating in shifts. On April 4, exhausted and often sleepy government members inadvertently let one of the NDP amendments pass, and the handful of residents of Cafon Court in Etobicoke were granted the right to a public consultation on the bill (the government subsequently nullified this with an amendment of their own). On April 6, with the alphabetical list of streets barely into the E's, Speaker Chris Stockwell ruled that there was no need for the 230 words identical in each amendment to be read aloud each time, only the street name. With a vote still needed on each amendment, Zorra Street was not reached until April 8. The NDP amendments were then voted down one by one, eventually using a similar abbreviated process, and the filibuster finally ended on April 11.

External link: archive of the amendment debates in the Provincial Hansard. The filibuster extends from section L176B of the archive to L176AE; the Cafon Court slip-up is in section L176H, Stockwell rules on the issue of repetition in L176N, and Zorra Street is reached in L176S.

See Common Sense Revolution for more information.

[edit] UK Parliament

Procedural rules in the British House of Commons do not allow Members to speak on just any subject; they must stick to the topic of the debate.

In 1874, Joseph Gillis Biggar started making long speeches in the House of Commons, lower house of the Parliament of the then United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland, to delay the passage of Irish coercion acts. Charles Stewart Parnell, a young nationalist MP, who in 1880 became leader of the Irish Parliamentary Party, joined him in this tactic to obstruct the business of the House and force the Liberals and Conservatives to negotiate with him and his party. The tactic was enormously successful, and Parnell and his MPs succeeded in, for a time, forcing Parliament to take the "Irish question" of return to self-government seriously.

In 1983, Member of Parliament (MP) John Golding talked for over 11 hours during an all-night sitting at the committee stage of the British Telecommunications Bill. However, as this was at a standing committee and not in the Commons chamber, he was also able to take breaks to eat. The all-time Commons record for non-stop speaking, six hours, was set by Henry Brougham in 1828, though this was not a filibuster.

The 20th-Century record for the longest non-stop Commons speech is held by Conservative barrister Sir Ivan Lawrence. The then MP for Burton spoke for four hours 23 minutes during the Fluoridation Bill's committee stage on March 6, 1985.

The 21st-Century record was set on December 2, 2005 by Andrew Dismore, Labour MP for Hendon. Dismore spoke for three hours 17 minutes to block a Conservative Private Member's Bill, the Criminal Law (Amendment) (Protection of Property) Bill, which he claimed amounted to "vigilante law".[8] Although Dismore is credited with speaking for 197 minutes, he regularly accepted interventions from other MPs who wished to comment on points made in his speech. Taking multiple interventions artificially inflates the duration of a speech, and is seen by many as a tactic to prolong a speech.

Filibustering can have consequences that were not expected or intended. In January 2000, filibustering orchestrated by Conservative Members of Parliament to oppose the Disqualifications Bill led to cancellation of the day's parliamentary business on Prime Minister Tony Blair's 1000th day in office. However, since this business included Prime Minister's Question Time, Conservative Leader William Hague was deprived of the opportunity of a high-profile confrontation with the Prime Minister.

On Friday, 20th April 2007, a Private Member's Bill aimed at exempting Members of Parliament from the Freedom of Information Act was 'talked out' by a collection of MPs, led by Liberal Democrats Simon Hughes and Norman Baker who debated for 5 hours, therefore running out of time for the parliamentary day and 'sending the bill to the bottom of the stack'. However, since there were no other Private Member's Bills to debate, it was resurrected the following Monday.[9]

[edit] Filibusters in other legislatures on the British model

The Northern Ireland House of Commons saw a notable filibuster in 1936 when Tommy Henderson (Independent Unionist MP for Shankill) spoke for nine and a half hours (ending just before 4 AM) on the Appropriation Bill. As this Bill applied government spending to all departments, almost any topic was relevant to the debate, and Henderson used the opportunity to list all his many criticisms of the Unionist government.

In the Southern Rhodesia House of Assembly, the Independent member Dr Ahrn Palley staged a similar all-night filibuster against the Law and Order Maintenance Bill in 1960.

[edit] France

In France, in August 2006, the left-wing opposition submitted 137,449 amendments to the proposed law bringing the share in Gaz de France owned by the French state from 80% to 34%, to allow for the merger between Gaz de France and Suez. Normal parliamentary procedure would require 10 years to vote on all the amendments.

The French constitution gives the government two options to defeat such a filibuster. The first one is through the use of the article 49 paragraph 3 procedure, according to which the law is adopted except if a majority is reached on a non-confidence motion. The second one is the article 44 paragraph 3 through which the government can force a global vote on all amendments it did not approve or submit itself.

In the end, the government did not have to use either of those procedures. As the parliamentary debate started, the left-wing opposition chose to withdraw all the amendments to allow for the vote to proceed. The "filibuster" was aborted because the opposition to the privatisation of Gaz de France appeared to lack support amongst the general population. It also appeared that this privatisation law could be used by the left-wing in the upcoming presidential election of 2007 as a political argument. Indeed, Nicolas Sarkozy, president of the Union pour un Mouvement Populaire (UMP - the right wing ruling party), Interior Minister, former Finance Minister and candidate to the presidency, had previously promised that the share owned by the French government in Gaz de France would never go below 70%.

[edit] Fictional representations of filibusters

The 1939 film Mr. Smith Goes to Washington climaxes with a young Junior Senator Jefferson Smith (played by Jimmy Stewart), astonished to discover the corruption of his mentor, staging a filibuster to prevent his expulsion from the chamber long enough to expose the corruption.

In the King of the Hill episode Flush with Power, a drought brings forth ordinance 631-A, a law which makes "lo-flo" toilets mandatory (which in reality waste more water than high-capacity toilets). Hank joins the Heimlich County Board of Zoning and Resources in an attempt to repeal the ordinance, but his actions earn the chagrin of Nate Hashaway, fellow board member and owner of Hashaway Fixtures (the manufacturer of the toilets). At the time of the vote on his repeal of the ordinance, everyone but Hank votes nay. About to give up, Hank takes the advice of Peggy. He begins reciting musings written by Peggy, which is immediately apparent to Nate Hashaway as a filibuster, forcing other board members to use the lo-flo toilets and see first-hand how useless they are.

The Stackhouse Filibuster, the 39th episode of The West Wing.

[edit] See also

Look up Filibuster in

Wiktionary, the free dictionary.Constitution of the Roman Republic

Obstructionism

Nuclear option

[edit] References

[edit] Notes

^ United States Senate- "Filibusters and Cloture", retrieved October 11, 2007

^ Online Etymology Dictionary - "filibuster", retrieved February 14, 2007

^ Newsweek - "Filibuster: Not Like It Used to Be", retrieved February 14, 2006

^ Lazare, D. Frozen Republic, p.198

^ see M. Gold & D. Gupta, 28 Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy 205 at 215

^ a b United States Senate - "Party Division in the Senate, 1789-Present", retrieved February 14, 2007

^ United States Senate - "Filibuster and Cloture", retrieved February 14, 2007

^ BBC News - "MP's marathon speech sinks bill", retrieved February 14, 2007

^ BBC News

[edit] Media

BBC, "Filibustering," at BBC News, 16 July 2005.

BBC, "MP's marathon speech sinks bill" at BBC News, 2 Dec. 2005.

Sarah A. Binder and Sterven S. Smith, Politics or Principle: Filibustering in the United States Senate. Washington, D.C.: Brookings Institution Press, 1996. ISBN 0-8157-0952-8

Eleanor Clift, "Filibuster: Not Like It Used to Be," Newsweek, 24 Nov. 2003.

Bill Dauster, "It’s Not Mr. Smith Goes to Washington: The Senate Filibuster Ain’t What it Used To Be," The Washington Monthly, Nov. 1996, at 34-36.

Alan S. Frumin, "Cloture Procedure," in Riddick's Senate Procedure, 282–334. Washington, D.C.: Government Printing Office, 1992.

Garry Gamber, "Famous Filibusters in Our Political History"

Daniel Lazare, The Frozen Republic: How the Constitution Is Paralyzing Democracy. Harcourt, 1996. ISBN 0-15-100085-9

Jessica Reaves, "The Filibuster Formula," Time, 25 Feb. 2003.

U.S. Senate, "Filibuster and Cloture."

U.S. Senate, "Filibuster Derails Supreme Court Appointment."

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Nicely done :goodposting:
 
As a pastor, I would never have the arrogance to tell someone how they should vote. That's an individual decision. But to tie their salvation to their vote is especially troubling to me.
this is something you have gone over countless times. You believe "once saved always saved". Catholics do not. It is not a council of bishops that ties anything to anything. It is Catholic Belief. You have a problem with what Catholics say to each other. As a Pastor shouldn't you tend to your flock and quit sticking your nose in the Catholic Business.You are worse than the Lady who gossips about the neighbors that she doesn't like who live down the street.
:confused:
 
Cross, I reckon most Catholics don't really worry too much about the bishops telling them not to vote for pro-choice people. In the same token, many Catholics are pro-life and would vote that way anyway.
Thanks for the response. Are you Catholic? I understand that many will just ignore it, but does the way it was worded bother you at all? Why tie salvation into politics?
No...it does not bother me because I properly understood the message.
So explain to me the proper interpretation of the message.
How can he possibly do this, you've already got it all figured out & know exactly what God wants us to think/believe.You're self-righteousness & arrogance is far beyond comprehension.
 
Why is this specifically directed at Catholics? All religions ask you to give up your moral authority.
Maybe it was that Catholic in front of the Catholic Bishops...
All religions have leaders who preach how to think and behave. I'm sorry I used that 4-syllable word in my last post, as that's where I appeared to lose you.
You asked why "this" is specifically directed at Catholics. I don't know exactly what "this" refers to, but I assume it refers to either "this" thread or "this" statement by the bishops.See, the statement was by Catholic bishops. Catholic. Bishops. Hence why "this" is specifically directed at Catholics.How many syllables are in "specifically"? 5? That one was harder than "authority", which I can assure you Catholics understand all too well. :lol:
 
I'm bumping this because the search function for "Calvin and Hobbes" returned this.

I was just going to riff on Chocolate Frosted Sugar Bombs, and then this comes into my life.

 

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