massraider
Footballguy
Does anyone outside of the Vick household believe that?
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Raiders to make run at Michael Vick (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Raider Nation
- Start date
CalBear
Footballguy
Maybe because they've already went out and gotten two WRs to help him, and they didn't.
InBeforeTheLock
Footballguy
Fox Sports Radio is reporting this is a done deal. I can't find any confirmation though.
SoFresh&SoClean
Footballguy
Honda post.
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PatsWillWin
Footballguy
The FFA is reporting this is a DONE DEAL:
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...302167&st=0
That's TWO reliable sources!
http://forums.footballguys.com/forum/index...302167&st=0
That's TWO reliable sources!
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
If true, I think this is a worse deal for the Falcons than it is the Raiders.
Traders2001
Footballguy
Yeah you are right .2500 passing yards ,20 passing TDs to only 13 ints .SwampDawg said:
1039 rushing yards and 2 TDs .
That has to be trash for sure .Thats without a true NFL WR , just imagine if he had decent WRs .
BoltBacker
Footballguy
1. Unless you've been in Vicks corner as long as Blank has, feel as though you've given him every opportunity to succeed and he's responded by ripping his coaching staff mid-season and now the airport situation. Blank may be fed up and looking to move him before the situation turns into..... the Randy Moss situation where he's making up injuries so he doesn't have to play out the end of the season, demanding to leave and making his trade value below zero because of those reasons and his contract.2. This makes it the perfect time to replace Vick with another QB of the future.3. Davis has driven the raiders into their current situation by handling every move with an eye for the short-sighted solution. Can't stop the run? Go sign three aging, overpriced DT's of course. Need a starting QB? Sign Collins/Brooks rather than develop a young guy. Vick wins more games next year than Russel/Quinn and I honestly think those are the terms Davis thinks in. Vick actually is the perfect QB to play behind that OL. Much easier to bring in Vick than try to fix the whole mess on the OL. Every move Davis makes seems like a desperate attempt to get the raiders in the superbowl NEXT YEAR rather than building a franchise to fight for the superbowl for several seasons. Vick is just about the best/only shortcut out there to give you hope.4. And character has played a factor in Al Davis's decision making in the past? IMO it's a classic Davis/raiders move... it's harder to understand from ATL's perspective but if Blank is fed up with Vick and loves Russell/Quinn then it makes some sense.massraider said:
Andy Dufresne
Footballguy
If the Falcons ended up with the #1 overall, why would they use it on Russell or Quinn?
Can you imagine running 3 wr sets with Moss, Porter, and Calvin Johnson?
I'm a Moss hater and even I can see that this would be a MESS for a defensive coordinator to figure out.
Can you imagine running 3 wr sets with Moss, Porter, and Calvin Johnson?
I'm a Moss hater and even I can see that this would be a MESS for a defensive coordinator to figure out.
Shlon
Footballguy
You cant trade right now. Falcons only have 6 million of space right now in their cap. Falcons would take a 22.25 million cap hit & then would have to find room to pay 1 million for Porter, 9.75 million for Moss, and extra for the #1 pick. Falcons would have to cut players left & right / restructures to fit under the cap & then the Falcons are also trying to resign Patrick Kerney.JetsWillWin said:
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Raider Nation
Devil's Advocate
Can't find confirmation anywhere -- Atlanta is denying it.
http://www.11alive.com/news/article_news.aspx?storyid=90916
massraider
Footballguy
Yeah, I'll concede that. If Blank has suddenly done a complete 180 on the player he was the biggest supporter of, and if he has suddenly changed his mind about Randy Moss, and doesn't mind swallowing a $20 mill cap hit, plus Moss' 10 mill salary next year, plus 25-30 mill to the #1 pick. Yeah, if all that's true, then you're right, it makes sense to do the trade this year.
Any time they get rid of Vick is the time to get the QB of the future. My point was that they don't have to make a decision on Shaub this year. If they had to, then it may seem like there was some urgency. He's not, so there isn't any.
You missed my point. I'm saying that Vick's attitude and recent activities make the price ridiculous. Was he worth the #1 pick before he raised eyebrows with his funky water bottle? And the Raiders are gonna throw in two starting WR's to move down to #10, out of the first tier of players? I appreciate you regurgitating the same party line about Davis, and there's a lot of truth in it, if nothing original. But if you're going to spout the same stuff, don't pick and choose what info about Al Davis you use to make this trade seem palatable. For one thing, Davis is not a fan of mobile QB's, never has been. Tuiasosopo was a Gruden pick, and Davis nabbed Gannon for Gruden's offense. He wants pocket QB's.
Also, all the moves you make reference to, happen through FA. Davis doesn't trade picks for those vets, and he certainly never gets bent over. He has a darn good trade history. Making a stupid trade like this, for a malcontent with an unwieldy contract, with a team with no leverage, is very un-Davis-like.
No, but money has. You ignored the pertinent part of that comment. Again. His contract hurts his trade value. Do you disagree with this?
Yeah, no idea why Blank would want to replace his starting WR core, while getting his QB of the future, all while getting out from under the contract of a pot-smoking coach killer. A head scratcher.
massraider
Footballguy
Check out Ben Maller's page.Same person posted this both here and in the FFA. No mention of this on foxsports.com. Until there is substantiation, I'm calling.
Da Guru
Fair & Balanced
That would almost as good as the Roy Williams, Charlie Rogers, Mike Williams trio.If the Falcons ended up with the #1 overall, why would they use it on Russell or Quinn?Can you imagine running 3 wr sets with Moss, Porter, and Calvin Johnson?
This is a textbook example of how perception becomes reality. On a nationally televised game Schaub threw for 285 yards and 3 TDs against a highly thought of new england defense. Problem is that patriots defense was depleted by injuries and was very mediocre at the time not to mention there was little game footage of Schaub for the defense to study. However ppl ignored those facts and of course the other times Schaub has played weren't nationally televised. Combined that with the fact that a lot of "experts" on tv keep talking about how great schaub is and you have ppl who think he's much better than he actually is.BTW if the Falcons are crazy enough to want to make that deal there's no way could they afford to pay moss, take vick's cap hit, pay Schaub and pay the #1 pick especially a qb who will want $10 mil or so. Just another reason why the won't do the deal.BoltBacker said:
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
It all depends on how much you like the player at #1 but I'd say yes, before the funky waterbottle(which actually was a lot of smoke and no fire) Vick is worth sliding 9 spots down in the draft.... especially if you're not convinced whoever gets selected #1 is worth top pick $. I'm not really a draft-nick but those that know more about the draft than myself seem to feel this is a deep draft without an absolute can't-miss franchise player on top.Lastly if you think the raiders are going to get anything by throwing in those two starting WR's you are kidding yourself. Neither player was even willing to suit up and go on the field for OAK by the end of last season. You seem to keep bringing up Vicks salary but the truth is he's a bargain compared to those two players. He actually suits up and plays in the games instead of coming up with phantom injuries that coincidentally coincide with making public statemtents how he can't perform when's he's unhappy.
There's a reason the party line is the party line about Davis. It's true. He has looked for stop-gap measures to fix that team for years now. He's not a fan of mobile QB's..... what do you think Brooks is?
massraider
Footballguy
Sliding down 9 spots in the draft is one way to look at it. Giving up the #1 pick is another. You're not a draft guy? Well, here's a common theme this year. The draft at the top runs about 8 deep. Quinn, Russell, Peterson, C. Johnson, Thomas, Branch, Adams. There's 7 names. The Raiders could use all of those guys. Right now, the feeling is they'll all be gone. Then you're looking at guys like Laron landry, Jarrett, Leon Hall. There is a major difference between missing out on the top QB, RB, WR, and OT in the draft, and "sliding down 10 spots".The funky waterbottle is smoke and no fire? Well, he didn't get in trouble, I'll give you that. Beyond that, he's a guy that for whatever reason, has a use for hidden compartments. That inspire confidence to you? THink that's good for the old trade value, do you?
As to the trade value of Moss and Porter, I'll say that I have no idea. And you pretending you do is laughable. True, they were miserable last year. You know what people will say? "Well, who can blame them? It's the Raiders..." It only takes one team to decide Porter just needs a change of scenery.
Sorry if I keep bringing up the players' salaries. Darn reality creeping into a good Raiders bashing, my bad. I'll stop bringing it up as soon as you explain how the Falcons would make that work, financially.
You repeating what you repeated about the "party line" doesn't make my response any less valid. Fact remains, Al doesn't trade his picks for vets. Fact also remains, he prefers pocket QB's. Brooks is your proof? How big a fan of Brooks do you think Al is? He drafted Walter, Marinovich, Wilson, etc. and even young QB's they've had that never made it were pocket QB's.
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BoltBacker
Footballguy
I won't speak to the draft prospect part, just that from what I've read none of those seven guys deserves #1 pick $. How much is Mario Williams making per year? 6yr/$54mil? $26mil guaranteed even if he ends up playing like Gallery(who was a can't miss prospect)? That's more than Alex Smith than the year before so with the new CBA raising the salary cap I'm going to go out on a limb and whoever the #1 pick is this year will get paid more.I never said you couldn't bring up players salaries, I simple stated bringing up Vicks salary without comparing his production/$ to Moss/Porter's is silly. In terms of production/$ I don't think anyone can even argue;
Vick>>>>>>>> Moss>>>>>>>>> Porter
They are not even comparable even if you pretend two of the three refused to even play for the team overpaying them.
I'm a Charger fan so believe me, I hope that trade rumor is bogus. I hope that Moss/Porter have a lot longer raider careers and are paid through their entire contracts. I hope they take one of those seven guys and pays him franchise player $. I hope they get a pocket passer to play behind the OL. Someone as close to Walter, Marinovich, Wilson as possible would be my preferance. It would be great imo.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
So ELI - 3,000It is what it is said:
Rivers - 1,800
BigBen - 1,250
I'd be curious to see a board like this that shows the average yearly salary of each draft slot.
massraider
Footballguy
It should never get to the point of comparing production/$. His salary makes him (almost) untradeable. You don't seem to be able to grasp this. BTW, these (>>>>>>
don't mean crap when you are evaluating a trade, because salary is part of the trade.Look, Moss has 2 years left on his deal. At high salaries. With the cap increase, there are a lot of teams that could afford him, but most would want him to redo his deal.Porter has I believe 3 years left, at salaries that are doable. I believe he can opt out of his deal next year, however.
Vick? Vick is signed through 2013, with salaries going up to 13.5 million. Sorry, that's a factor.
This was a Madden 2007 wet dream from the start, with no basis anywhere in the NFL. Ben Maller posted it, but when you clicked on the link, it went to Vick's player page. And no one else has picked this story up. Why do you suppose that is?
Nigel Tufnel
Footballguy
Yahoo!, via RotoWire, is still going with this.
BoltBacker
Footballguy
I'm not saying the trade is going to be made. I'm just saying it isn't that bad a deal for OAK. Vick is the only player involved in the trade that is performing at all and imo they aren't sacrificing a franchise player by sliding down 9 spots so they could fill two glaring holes instead of one. There are plenty of people that think Vick sucks(I'm not one) and there may be people that think any of the guys you rattled off as top 7 are worth #1 pick $. To be completely honest with you I think the #1 pick in the draft is almost always overpayed unless it turns out to be someone like Peyton Manning. If there was a Peyton Manning in the draft I'd agree that #1 pick would be worth a lot more than it currently is.
CalBear
Footballguy
Rich "Loose" Gannon was not a pocket passer. In 2000 he had over 500 rushing yards on 89 rushes, and for his career he is #13 since 1960 in rushing yards for a QB. He's simply a better QB than Tuiasosopo; he's certainly not a pocket QB. For that matter, neither is Brooks. But, I am similarly dubious that this rumor has any basis in reality.
massraider
Footballguy
I know he was. My point is that I doubt Davis would have gotten a mobile QB (Gannon), if Gruden hadn't been there.Left to his own devices, Davis wants a guy 6'4", standing tall, and chucking it down field. The only reason I mention it at all, is because I think people assume Davis would even want Vick. Yeah, Vick is an exceptional athlete, but he's not Davis' idea of a prototype QB.
massraider
Footballguy
Wingo, on NFL Live, mentioned that Arthur Blank came out specifically to say that Vick isn't going anywhere, and will be the starter in 2007. FWIW
CalBear
Footballguy
Once again, Davis, on his own, went out and got Brooks, who is also not a pocket QB. Brooks, if anything, is a poor man's Michael Vick. I think it is 100% plausible that Davis would want Vick; he's always been enamored of pure athletes. But the deal is still implausible.
massraider
Footballguy
Signing Brooks doesn't change Davis' overall philosophy. Brooks is one guy. And who'd he replace, BTW? Kerry Collins.This is a minor little thing to get hung up on, but just because Vick is a super athlete, doesn't mean he fits into what the Raiders want in a QB.
I wonder how much of this is based in reality, or if this is some dude sitting around and saying, "Hmm, the Falcons must be sick of Vick, who'd be dumb enough to take on this underacheiving RB, with the most absurd contract in NFL history?"
First team that gets thought of is the Raiders, and then everything else gets twisted to fit into this incredibly stupid trade idea.
I'm just pointing out reasons why this trade makes little sense. Yeah, I'm sure Al is intrigued by his athletic abilities. But if Al were to draw up his perfect QB, it'd look a lot moe like Carson Palmer than Vick. Or McNabb, or whoever.
I'm sorry, this is a guy with a 75.7 lifetime passer rating that happened to finish 20th in the league this year in that stat. He has a 53.8% career completion percentage (52.6% this year). He's not worth it, especially with the off field issues like Ron Mexico and the water bottle. Bottom line: He is the Randy Moss of the Falcons.http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/235253
Autumn Wind
Footballguy
Lamonica, Stabler, Plunkett...none of them were Vick-type athletes. Gannon was a Gruden guy, not an Al Davis one.I have always thought of it like Davis wants a QB good at throwing deep. I never associated "pocket QB" with Davis per se, as much as the deep passing offense. Well, IMO Vick is a good deep passer.
CalBear
Footballguy
No one had Vick-type athletes at QB in 1973.Lamonica, Stabler, Plunkett...none of them were Vick-type athletes. Gannon was a Gruden guy, not an Al Davis one.I have always thought of it like Davis wants a QB good at throwing deep. I never associated "pocket QB" with Davis per se, as much as the deep passing offense. Well, IMO Vick is a good deep passer.
Autumn Wind
Footballguy
Tarkenton? I know he's not the specimen Vick is, but he had the legs and the arm.No one had Vick-type athletes at QB in 1973.Lamonica, Stabler, Plunkett...none of them were Vick-type athletes. Gannon was a Gruden guy, not an Al Davis one.I have always thought of it like Davis wants a QB good at throwing deep. I never associated "pocket QB" with Davis per se, as much as the deep passing offense. Well, IMO Vick is a good deep passer.
Donnybrook
Footballguy
Fixed. Otherwise you will have a hard time explaining how Randy Moss ended up in Oakland?
ExtraPoint
Footballguy
I agree that Davis isnt neccessarily looking for a "pocket" passer. I think that's like me saying Davis wants Vick because he's left handed like Stabler was. Davis isnt looking for a QB who is immobile or left handed. The 3 things I know he looks for in a QB is toughness, leadership, and physical ability that includes but isnt limited to a strong arm (which Vick has). While his leadership can be questioned, Vick's toughness and physical abilities are plenty to draw Davis's attention. Vick's height is a physical drawback but we all know Al Davis admires speed. Davis doesnt only look at a single quality.I have always thought of it like Davis wants a QB good at throwing deep. I never associated "pocket QB" with Davis per se, as much as the deep passing offense. Well, IMO Vick is a good deep passer.
CalBear
Footballguy
The most yardage Tarkenton ever ran for was 376 yards. That makes him about as mobile as David Carr. It was only in relation to the other QBs of the time that he got a reputation as a scrambler.The last two QBs the Raiders have brought in as free agents have both been running QBs; I don't think there's any reason to believe that the Raiders will avoid Vick because he's a running QB. (I will reiterate that I don't think this deal is real, but it's not because Vick is a running QB).
massraider
Footballguy
You mean the last two FA QB's, aside from twinkle-toes Kerry Collins, right? This comment got blown out of proportion by the way. I was just mentioning the reasons why the deal won't get done. Well, aside from the ones like money, logic, salaries, and the comments of the Falcons owner.
I certainly don't think Al is going to pass on Vick because he's mobile, I'm not a moron. It was just a by-the-way comment for the notion that Vick to the Raiders makes a ton of sense.
massraider
Footballguy
A-Ha! you caught me. As it turns out, Al Davis has traded draft picks for a vet! Good on you. I imagine that if we dug a little deeper, we could even find another vet he traded for. Woo hoo!!
