RB David Johnson, Retired (3 Viewers)

[-OZ-]

Because he could pick up an injury that might have been avoided in a lost season. Assuming Palmer, Fitz and Arians are done after this season, the Cardinals will be in rebuilding mode in 2018. Might as well have your cornerstone fully healthy for camp. 

So they should sit him for 2018 too then.  If he is healthy he will play this year.

So that's why the browns shut down Joe Thomas. 

Although I sort of buy the sentiment regarding luck.

 

[zoonation]

Lol, no it isn't. ACL injuries are non contact as much as contact. You can't hold a healthy player out, if he wants to play, just because they can't make the playoffs, especially a high profile one. 

I’m starting to realize that all your takes are pure conjecture.  Which is fine, if you’re not passing them off as fact.  

You need to start showing your work.  

 

[zoonation]

Luck's injury is very different because it IS an issue that has the potential to linger for years (as it already has) or be re-injured a la the "shaky knee injury" that I had mentioned.  That said, I still think they would play him if he's cleared in week 15.

No chance they play him week 15 IMO

 

[msudaisy26]

I’m starting to realize that all your takes are pure conjecture.  Which is fine, if you’re not passing them off as fact.  

You need to start showing your work.  

Dalvin Cook, Jordy Nelson, Teddy Bridgewater, Kelvin Benjamin just off the top of my head. Non contact and if I remember correct Benjamin and Bridgewater during practice. 

 

[zoonation]

That is not the aspect of your post I was referencing. It is the unqualified claim that the team can’t hold him out, or that the player would have grounds to file a grievance through the union if they chose to do so.  

On what basis do you maintain that position?  Can you cite a specific clause or article of the CBA in support?  Can you refer us to a similar case where such a grievance was filed, let alone succeeded?

if you can, great.  I like learning as much as the next next dull spoon.  

 

[Hankmoody]

Lol, totally different if they are sitting one game, or they aren't medically cleared. If he is cleared they can't hold him out if he wants to play. How would they justify it to the players union or the player himself?

They don't have to justify it at all.  Coaches decide who plays.  Guys are DNP - coach's decision all the time.

 

[msudaisy26]

That is not the aspect of your post I was referencing. It is the unqualified claim that the team can’t hold him out, or that the player would have grounds to file a grievance through the union if they chose to do so.  

On what basis do you maintain that position?  Can you cite a specific clause or article of the CBA in support?  Can you refer us to a similar case where such a grievance was filed, let alone succeeded?

if you can, great.  I like learning as much as the next next dull spoon.  

Common sense, you can't hold a player off the field that is healthy. It is one thing if it is the last few guys on your roster, then a case can be made that the coaches believe they don't give them the best chance to win, but this is David Johnson and no such case can be made, the Cardinals haven't used an IR to return tag yet this year that I know of, so they can't claim that he is stuck on IR. So if David Johnson was cleared and said to be fully healthy by doctors he could file a grievance and would have proof that he wants to play and there is a path for him to play that is allowed under the rules. 

Will Johnson do it? I have no idea, but that is up to him, not the coaches or the GM. 

I can't think of a case off the top of my head. I will try to look it up when I can, I am on my phone and looking it up stinks, I also can't remember a player that could return from IR getting healthy and then told we won't bring you back even though we can. 

 

[msudaisy26]

They don't have to justify it at all.  Coaches decide who plays.  Guys are DNP - coach's decision all the time.

Then why don't Colts pull Hilton off the field and save him for next year, or Eli, Rivers, Melvin Gordon. By the letter of the law coaches pick who play, but you can't honestly think that if the best players are healthy and want to play that they won't play them. If they don't they will lose the locker room or lose their job. So you are wrong because they do have to answer to the players, especially the star players that can get them fired. 

 

[kutta]

Then why don't Colts pull Hilton off the field and save him for next year, or Eli, Rivers, Melvin Gordon. By the letter of the law coaches pick who play, but you can't honestly think that if the best players are healthy and want to play that they won't play them. If they don't they will lose the locker room or lose their job. So you are wrong because they do have to answer to the players, especially the star players that can get them fired. 

Do you really think the team publicly stated that the player is healthy and they are not playing them? Of course they don’t. They most likely would just not declare him healthy. 

It’s different benching an already-healthy guy. We are talking about a guy coming off IR. Do you think Luck and Rodgers play week 16 and 17 of their teams have no chance at the playoffs? No way. But the teams won’t declare them “healthy” either.

 

[Hankmoody]

Then why don't Colts pull Hilton off the field and save him for next year, or Eli, Rivers, Melvin Gordon. By the letter of the law coaches pick who play, but you can't honestly think that if the best players are healthy and want to play that they won't play them. If they don't they will lose the locker room or lose their job. So you are wrong because they do have to answer to the players, especially the star players that can get them fired. 

Because the coach decided they should.  Because that is what coaches do.  I'm not wrong about anything, I haven't even taken a stance here,  I actually agree with you that if he's healthy, he'll play.  But it's comically wrong to say they must play him if he wants to play.

 

[Catbird]

Then why don't Colts pull Hilton off the field and save him for next year, or Eli, Rivers, Melvin Gordon. By the letter of the law coaches pick who play, but you can't honestly think that if the best players are healthy and want to play that they won't play them. If they don't they will lose the locker room or lose their job. So you are wrong because they do have to answer to the players, especially the star players that can get them fired. 

Because it's the coach's job to win? Because he is more likely to win if he doesn't sit his best players even if they aren't going to the Superbowl? Winning is their job. I think they might consider sitting Luck in the totality of circumstances even if he's ruled healthy Week 15 (or maybe not) and I can say with some certainty that he - like all other players in the history of pro football unless you can site a single instance - won't file a grievance against the coach or team. Nor will the coach lose the locker room or any of your other dire projections for team cohesion. Coaches always decides who plays, and that's pretty much the best players they have that are healthy enough to play without undue risk. Your thought that players decide whether they play or not is ludicrous. When was the last time you heard a player say, 'Coach told me to sit, but I put myself in and I'll fire a grievance if he doesn't like it?'

 

[Catbird]

You've got me agreeing with Milkman for heaven's sake.

 

[-OZ-]

Because it's the coach's job to win? Because he is more likely to win if he doesn't sit his best players even if they aren't going to the Superbowl? Winning is their job. I think they might consider sitting Luck in the totality of circumstances even if he's ruled healthy Week 15 (or maybe not) and I can say with some certainty that he - like all other players in the history of pro football unless you can site a single instance - won't file a grievance against the coach or team. Nor will the coach lose the locker room or any of your other dire projections for team cohesion. Coaches always decides who plays, and that's pretty much the best players they have that are healthy enough to play without undue risk. Your thought that players decide whether they play or not is ludicrous. When was the last time you heard a player say, 'Coach told me to sit, but I put myself in and I'll fire a grievance if he doesn't like it?'

Sounds like something Marty Bryant would say.

 

[TheDirtyWord]

Chao still feels fairly confident in a Turkey Day/early December return...

If I’m guessing, the reason why DJ is ‘not sure’ when he’ll come back is because the wrist is still casted.  So until he’s out of the cast and the doc checks out the healing, no one can say for sure that DJ will be healthy enough to come back.

But I did think the comment about DJ said about coming back Thanksgiving to be ‘premature’ somewhat telling.  I took the remark to be more along the lines of speculating any return date is ‘premature’.  I didn’t take premature to mean that was too early a target.  But - there is certainly room for interpretation.

One thing Chao said was this though.  Now, the ultimate decision on return to play is made jointly between the player, medical staff and team. And all parties need to sign off.

I think if Johnson is deemed healthy medically, he’s going to want to play...which means 2 of the 3 parties sign off.  And a healthy player is a healthy player...the Cardinals would have to make a decision to keep a healthy player, eligible to return to the field, off it.  Has there been a case where a team has done that?

 

[ghostguy123]

Healthy and/or healed isnt the same as "ready to return to an NFL game".

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Chao still feels fairly confident in a Turkey Day/early December return...

If I’m guessing, the reason why DJ is ‘not sure’ when he’ll come back is because the wrist is still casted.  So until he’s out of the cast and the doc checks out the healing, no one can say for sure that DJ will be healthy enough to come back.

But I did think the comment about DJ said about coming back Thanksgiving to be ‘premature’ somewhat telling.  I took the remark to be more along the lines of speculating any return date is ‘premature’.  I didn’t take premature to mean that was too early a target.  But - there is certainly room for interpretation.

One thing Chao said was this though.  Now, the ultimate decision on return to play is made jointly between the player, medical staff and team. And all parties need to sign off.

I think if Johnson is deemed healthy medically, he’s going to want to play...which means 2 of the 3 parties sign off.  And a healthy player is a healthy player...the Cardinals would have to make a decision to keep a healthy player, eligible to return to the field, off it.  Has there been a case where a team has done that?

However, it shouldn’t be too long before Johnson is out of the cast. And once he is, the acclimation to a splint is relatively quick as the wrist rehab required to return to play is relatively simple.

...Once he gets in a splint, he could be playing in as a little as two weeks. For example, Jordan Mathews recently broke his thumb, needed surgery and yet returned to catch passes in two weeks.

...The bottom line is Johnson not knowing about his return is true, because it depends on several factors.

Medically, however, I still think Thanksgiving weekend is possible.

 

[flapgreen]

Ease him in week 12 or 13. Full out after that 

 

[humpback]

Not looking good (their GM also didn't sound optimistic):

Kent Somers‏Verified account @kentsomers

Arians says at this point he doubts David Johnson plays again this season

12:46 PM - 31 Oct 2017

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Not looking good (their GM also didn't sound optimistic):

Kent Somers‏Verified account @kentsomers

Arians says at this point he doubts David Johnson plays again this season

12:46 PM - 31 Oct 2017

Sad. For everyone.

 

[Milkman]

I hate when I'm right. It was crazy for you guys to think he was coming back if they were out of contention for a playoff spot. 

 

[djmich]

I hate when I'm right. It was crazy for you guys to think he was coming back if they were out of contention for a playoff spot. 

I don't want to see you upset with yourself, so glad to tell you that you weren't "right" yet.

He's not out yet.  If he doesn't play weeks 14-16 AND they are out of contention for a playoff spot.  Then you were right.

 

[Shutout]

I hate when I'm right. It was crazy for you guys to think he was coming back if they were out of contention for a playoff spot. 

Nice humnelebrag there but in all, seriousness, yes, it makes sense.  This was a large part of the discussion here last week.  When you read Johnsons wording, it just didn't sound like what we are used to hearing.  It's speculation purely but it sounded like somebody had planted a seed in his ear already and I was concerned when they saw Palmer go down for the count. 

 

[humpback]

I don't want to see you upset with yourself, so glad to tell you that you weren't "right" yet.

He's not out yet.  If he doesn't play weeks 14-16 AND they are out of contention for a playoff spot.  Then you were right.

Even then, he'd have to be healthy for him to be "right", which is still tbd.

 

[Milkman]

I don't want to see you upset with yourself, so glad to tell you that you weren't "right" yet.

He's not out yet.  If he doesn't play weeks 14-16 AND they are out of contention for a playoff spot.  Then you were right.

Lol ok it's obvious he's not playing unless they win a bunch of games.....

 

[gianmarco]

Lol ok it's obvious he's not playing unless they win a bunch if games.....

No, it's not.

It's obvious he's not playing unless he's healthy.  You aren't right about anything.

 

[Biabreakable]

Bruce Arians: 'I'd doubt' David Johnson returns in 2017

 

[Milkman]

Even then, he'd have to be 100% healthy for him to be "right".

I need him just as bad so i'm sorry this upset you but it made zero sense to let their superstar RB risk another injury for nothing.

 

[humpback]

I need him just as bad so i'm sorry this upset you but it made zero sense to let their superstar RB risk another injury for nothing.

Pointing out that you aren't right (yet) doesn't upset me at all.

 

[Milkman]

No, it's not.

It's obvious he's not playing unless he's healthy.  You aren't right about anything.

Lol completely healthy he's not playing week 15-17 just for the hell of it. These comments by the coach and GM prove that because they don't even have the cast off and they are already saying it's doubtful he comes back. It's more about it being pointless and risking him for nothing. 

Now if they have a winning record or have a chance at a playoff spot he could come back. 

 

[Milkman]

Pointing out that you aren't right (yet) doesn't upset me at all.

Sorry man. Next year he'll be back. Sucks for all of us but what's happening is exactly what i predicted and was laughed at. No need to risk him. 

 

[Hawkeye21]

This argument is just stupid.  We don't know anything more than what we knew before.  It's most likely he won't play this season but there's still a chance.  Same info.

 

[humpback]

Sorry man. Next year he'll be back. Sucks for all of us but what's happening is exactly what i predicted and was laughed at. No need to risk him. 

I'm not familiar with what you were laughed at about, but if you used similar logic there as you are now, you deserved it. These comments prove absolutely nothing one way or the other about whether he'll play if he's healthy and they're out of it.

 

[gianmarco]

Lol completely healthy he's not playing week 15-17 just for the hell of it. These comments by the coach and GM prove that because they don't even have the cast off and they are already saying it's doubtful he comes back. It's more about it being pointless and risking him for nothing. 

Now if they have a winning record or have a chance at a playoff spot he could come back. 

So, in weeks 15-17, at this rate, Jameis Winston, Mike Evans, TY Hilton, DeAndre Hopkins, and any other star players on teams that are out of it won't be playing?  You don't realize how absurd it sounds.

If he's medically cleared, that means he's not at risk of getting injured and he will play.  If he's at risk of getting injured, then he's not fully healthy and won't be cleared.  It's pretty simple.  The ONLY way it factors in is if he's medically cleared in week 17.  Anything before that, and he'll be out there IF he is healthy and cleared.

The pessimism at this point is due to the fact that he's not at the point where they think he'll be healthy, not because they think they're out of it.  They are only 2 games out of the Wild Card spot at this point at 3-4 with more than half the season left. 

Your perspective on this is nonsense.

 

[Milkman]

So, in weeks 15-17, at this rate, Jameis Winston, Mike Evans, TY Hilton, DeAndre Hopkins, and any other star players on teams that are out of it won't be playing?  You don't realize how absurd it sounds.

If he's medically cleared, that means he's not at risk of getting injured and he will play.  If he's at risk of getting injured, then he's not fully healthy and won't be cleared.  It's pretty simple.  The ONLY way it factors in is if he's medically cleared in week 17.  Anything before that, and he'll be out there IF he is healthy and cleared.

The pessimism at this point is due to the fact that he's not at the point where they think he'll be healthy, not because they think they're out of it.  They are only 2 games out of the Wild Card spot at this point at 3-4 with more than half the season left. 

Your perspective on this is nonsense.

Cast isn't off they know very little about how he's healing. What they do know is they aren't very good this year. They almost lost him playing him last year for nothing. It's probably factoring in on this decision as well. 

Anyway ill leave now. You guys are to emotionally connected to him playing for me to convince you otherwise. I'll be back in here week 15 to laugh a little when he's sitting on the sidline and you guys can say it's because he's only 99.2% healthy. 

 

[Hawkeye21]

Cast isn't off they know very little about how he's healing. What they do know is they aren't very good this year. They almost lost him playing him last year for nothing. It's probably factoring in on this decision as well. 

Anyway ill leave now. You guys are to emotionally connected to him playing for me to convince you otherwise. I'll be back in here week 15 to laugh a little when he's sitting on the sidline and you guys can say it's because he's only 99.2% healthy. 

You obviously can't see that you came here to gloat about something that hasn't changed at all, right?  I don't even care if DJ comes back this season as I'm not invested in him.  It's just ridiculous and you seem to be the only one that doesn't know it.

 

[Shutout]

Cast isn't off they know very little about how he's healing. What they do know is they aren't very good this year. They almost lost him playing him last year for nothing. It's probably factoring in on this decision as well. 

Anyway ill leave now. You guys are to emotionally connected to him playing for me to convince you otherwise. I'll be back in here week 15 to laugh a little when he's sitting on the sidline and you guys can say it's because he's only 99.2% healthy. 

I would say that you're right in that there are a lot of people who have skewed perspectives because of the investment.  A lot of people who were drafting Zeke Elliot in those 2nd and 3rd rounds had that vision that others were warning against.  The wheels are falling off so opinions and brags are high on both sides at the moment. 

 

[kutta]

So, in weeks 15-17, at this rate, Jameis Winston, Mike Evans, TY Hilton, DeAndre Hopkins, and any other star players on teams that are out of it won't be playing?  You don't realize how absurd it sounds.

If he's medically cleared, that means he's not at risk of getting injured and he will play.  If he's at risk of getting injured, then he's not fully healthy and won't be cleared.  It's pretty simple.  The ONLY way it factors in is if he's medically cleared in week 17.  Anything before that, and he'll be out there IF he is healthy and cleared.

The pessimism at this point is due to the fact that he's not at the point where they think he'll be healthy, not because they think they're out of it.  They are only 2 games out of the Wild Card spot at this point at 3-4 with more than half the season left. 

Your perspective on this is nonsense.

The better examples are Rodgers and Luck because they are both on IR. Do you think they will come back too in weeks 15-17 if their teams are out of the playoffs?

 

[gianmarco]

The better examples are Rodgers and Luck because they are both on IR. Do you think they will come back too in weeks 15-17 if their teams are out of the playoffs?

If they are healthy, then yes. 

 

[kutta]

If they are healthy, then yes. 

That’s crazy talk. Of course they won’t be “healthy.” It’s as I said earlier, they simply won’t declare DJ healthy and then he won’t play the rest of the year. Same with those other guys.

 

[djmich]

That’s crazy talk. Of course they won’t be “healthy.” It’s as I said earlier, they simply won’t declare DJ healthy and then he won’t play the rest of the year. Same with those other guys.

So you are saying they will get a 100% healthy diagnosis from the dr and then publicly communicate he is not 100% healthy?

 

[humpback]

Cast isn't off they know very little about how he's healing. What they do know is they aren't very good this year. They almost lost him playing him last year for nothing. It's probably factoring in on this decision as well. 

Anyway ill leave now. You guys are to emotionally connected to him playing for me to convince you otherwise. I'll be back in here week 15 to laugh a little when he's sitting on the sidline and you guys can say it's because he's only 99.2% healthy. 

How on earth can you admit this but still claim victory? I'm not saying you're going to be wrong, I wasn't even part of the original conversation, but you certainly aren't right or wrong at the moment.

 

[Milkman]

How on earth can you admit this but still claim victory? I'm not saying you're going to be wrong, I wasn't even part of the original conversation, but you certainly aren't right or wrong at the moment.

Because they just stated publicly that he's doubtful to play the rest of the year without knowing much about how much he's healed. It proves how much he's healed is not what's making his return doubtful. Where they are in the standings is the biggest factor or they wouldn't have come out and said what they did today. 

 

[Tool]

The better examples are Rodgers and Luck because they are both on IR. Do you think they will come back too in weeks 15-17 if their teams are out of the playoffs?

No.

 

[humpback]

Because they just stated publicly that he's doubtful to play the rest of the year without knowing much about how much he's healed. It proves how much he's healed is not what's making his return doubtful. Where they are in the standings is the biggest factor or they wouldn't have come out and said what they did today. 

Have you considered that maybe the reason they made those statements is because they thought they would know more about how much he's healed by now? Again, what happened today doesn't prove anything, afaik they gave no reason for why they don't think he'll play again this year.

 

[kutta]

So you are saying they will get a 100% healthy diagnosis from the dr and then publicly communicate he is not 100% healthy?

I’m saying there is always a grey area when declaring health. They will spin it as he’s still feeling pain, or he’s not in game shape, or nudge nudge wink wink with the doctor that he needs two more weeks, or whatever. He won’t play ( either will Luck or Rodgers) but the team will have *some* excuse.

 

[packer_junkie]

I’m saying there is always a grey area when declaring health. They will spin it as he’s still feeling pain, or he’s not in game shape, or nudge nudge wink wink with the doctor that he needs two more weeks, or whatever. He won’t play ( either will Luck or Rodgers) but the team will have *some* excuse.

Is anyone ever 100% healthy.

Bones are stronger the longer they rest and heal (collarbones and wrists are less likely to break week 1 next year as opposes to week 16 this year) If you're 8-6, it might be worth the risk. If you're 5-9, it certainly isn't. 

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

Bruce Arians: 'I'd doubt' David Johnson returns in 2017

>>Asked if Arizona Cardinals coach Bruce Arians foresees his star running back returning this year from the wrist injury that was expected to keep him out until at least December, Arians said he's not optimistic.

"You'd have to ask the doctors," Arians said. "Right now, I'd doubt it."

Arians added that Johnson, who injured his wrist in the Cardinals' season-opening loss to the Detroit Lions, is still in a cast.<<

Does this make DJ droppable?

 

[SaintsInDome2006]

I may take an effort to trade him in redraft. I'm not sure how 'our there' Arians' comments are.

 

[zamboni]

I may take an effort to trade him in redraft. I'm not sure how 'our there' Arians' comments are.

Arians has always seemed to be a straight shooter. If he's saying that DJ probably won't be back, I'm taking that at face value that it's likely that we don't see him until 2018.

 

[Biabreakable]

>>Asked if Arizona Cardinals coach Bruce Arians foresees his star running back returning this year from the wrist injury that was expected to keep him out until at least December, Arians said he's not optimistic.

"You'd have to ask the doctors," Arians said. "Right now, I'd doubt it."

Arians added that Johnson, who injured his wrist in the Cardinals' season-opening loss to the Detroit Lions, is still in a cast.<<

Does this make DJ droppable?

I suppose it does in redraft. As always depends on what you could pick up for that slot instead.

Not sure how confident you would be starting Johnson come playoff time if he does return from the injury.

Things can always change, but I think Arians is a pretty straight shooter as far as coaches go. The Peterson trade makes more sense as well if they are not really expecting to get Johnson back.