RB Jahmyr Gibbs, DET (2 Viewers)

[kyoun1e]

For your information, I'm finding that J. Warren is enough to get a J. Gibbs owner to bite.

This has to be his lowest value all year.

 

[massraider]

This whole conversation started because his own coach and Ekeler said he is struggling. Also, I have not looked at the last ten years. Thats why I am asking the question.

To me it's the same thought:

Guys who are special show it right away. Breece. Bijan. Kamara. Maybe just a few plays.

Someone can not show anything, and be decent. Maybe good.

But special backs usually their special traits are special rookie year

 

[Stoneworker]

Joe Mixon was pretty unspecial his rookie year. He's done okay.

Aaron Jones, James Conner. Mark Ingram didn't hit his stride until year 4-5 or so.

 

[Stoneworker]

This whole conversation started because his own coach and Ekeler said he is struggling. Also, I have not looked at the last ten years. Thats why I am asking the question.

To me it's the same thought:

Guys who are special show it right away. Breece. Bijan. Kamara. Maybe just a few plays.

Someone can not show anything, and be decent. Maybe good.

But special backs usually their special traits are special rookie year

And it can work just the opposite.

Kareem Hunt started out about as special as any RB can but then quickly went into reverse.

 

[GibbsFreeEnergy]

Maybe this turd should start returning punts to get his legs under him.

 

[humpback]

RB is the easiest position for rookies to perform well at right away. I know its only been 4 weeks but these are not good signs for his future. How many rookie RBs struggle year one and succeed later (in today's NFL)? I know CMC is one. Who else?

No offense, but I’ll probably defer to Ekeler over you on this one.

And Jonathan Taylor is the answer you’re looking for.

The same guy who said PICK UP JOSH KELLEY!

Taylor had 1169 yard rushing, 11 TDs, and a 5.0 YPC his rookie season. What are you talking about?

His end of season stats were great. But I vividly remember folks panicking on him early in his rookie year after his 9/22 and 17/68 games just like people are doing with Gibbs now.

Maybe you weren’t playing fantasy then.

Or maybe you're trying to move the goalposts, because the question very clearly was "How many rookie RBs struggle year one and succeed later", not "how many rookie RBs struggle their first 4 games and succeed later".

Obviously we don't know if Gibbs will struggle all year, but that was the "assumption" here.

It wasn’t just his first four games.

Week 7- 11/22
Week 8- 6/27
Week 9- 7/12

Lawd. Folks like @jobarules would’ve sold him for a bag of pork rinds and a 4th round pick after week 9.

That still wasn't the question. Year 1 isn't 4 or 8 games. Even if you want to change the timeframe, Taylor still outperformed what Gibbs has done so far by a pretty decent margin.

By the standard being applied to Gibbs, Taylor "struggled" for his first 8 games.

See above.

No, he actually hasn't.

Gibbs has 39 carries & 14 receptions for goodness sake, look up JT's first 39 carries and 14 receptions.

Again, this is a COMPLETELY different point since the original statement was that he struggled his first year, which no one can make a reasonable argument for.

However, you're wrong about this new point too. Taylor averaged 14 ppg his first 4 games, Gibbs was 9.7, for goodness sake.

 

[Chaka]

Again, this is a COMPLETELY different point since the original statement was that he struggled his first year, which no one can make a reasonable argument for.

However, you're wrong about this new point too. Taylor averaged 14 ppg his first 4 games, Gibbs was 9.7, for goodness sake.

On the one hand you are saying that we are talking about a year scale then you follow it up by saying Taylor was better to this point.

That still wasn't the question. Year 1 isn't 4 or 8 games. Even if you want to change the timeframe, Taylor still outperformed what Gibbs has done so far by a pretty decent margin.

We can't speak to the year, and I anticipate because of the presence of Montgomery, who is better than Jordan Wilkins btw, Taylor will end up having the better rookie season. Then again if Marlon Mack doesn't rupture his achilles in week one JT's first year would have probably shaped up a lot like Gibbs's is so far.

To your shortened time frame point; no JT was not better "so far by a pretty decent margin". On his first 39 carries he had 140 yards (3.6 ypc) to 179 yards for Gibbs (4.6 ypc). Over his first 18 targets JT had 17 receptions for 167 yards (9.8 y/r) and Gibbs has 14 receptions for 70 yards (5 y/r). He didn't hit 18 targets until his seventh game, sixth as a starter, tallying 100 carries over that time frame.

 

[Biabreakable]

Everyone seems to be misreading the question I asked

I understood and understand it. I merely posted because I can see how JoeJoe88 thought that Taylor had a bad first year, because Taylor did indeed have a bad first half of a rookie year.

Thank you

All I was saying is, I know 4 games is definitely NOT enough to make a prediction about Gibbs' future. However, IF he continues down this path and struggles all year what are his chances of improving and being a good RB in later years? Based on recent history (last 10 years) I would say his chances are slim as the only example I can think of RB fitting these parameters is CMC. Are there any others?

I wouldnt describe what Gibbs has done so far as struggling. At least by metrics like yards per carry (4.6) catch rate (78%) he has been fine. The yards per target and yards per reception are below average so far (5 ypr 3.9 ypt).

He has slipped and lost his footing multiple times. He was also spied on by Walker vs Green Bay. A team wont usually isolate and spy players like this unless they are considered a threat by the defense. Doing so allows teams to scheme around and exploit that with other players if they do.

You claim based on the last 10 years that his chances of improving are slim, yet then ask for evidence of players struggling who improve in their 2nd season besides CMC? Why ask if you looked at the last 10 years yourself already?

You havent. So thats a baseless comment.

Gibbs has not struggled as a rusher so far but has as a receiver in terms of yards gained in a small sample size. Will that continue? I doubt it.

This whole conversation started because his own coach and Ekeler said he is struggling. Also, I have not looked at the last ten years. Thats why I am asking the question. CMC is the only one that comes to mind for me. Although I think Derrick henry could be another one. Started off as a backup to Murray. Then his first year starting he really didnt start producing until late in the season.

There are many more.

Just depends on how you define struggle.

LeVeon Bell had 244 rushing attempts averaging 3.5 ypc which wasnt great. He did perform well as a receiver though. Bell greatly improved in his 2nd season adding almost 1000 total yards to his rookie season and had 4.7 ypc that year.

Could go on. Again its just depends on how you define struggle as the basis here.

If its based on what you heard coaches say then listen to everything the coaches say. Dont just focus on one thing they say while ignoring the other things.

 

[LawFitz]

Joe Mixon was pretty unspecial his rookie year. He's done okay.

Aaron Jones, James Conner. Mark Ingram didn't hit his stride until year 4-5 or so.

None of these backs are special. Maybe Jones is close, but nah.

Okay =/= special.

 

[Teef]

Just bought Gibbs for Khalil Herbert.

 

[zoonation]

Just bought Gibbs for Khalil Herbert.

Wow.

 

[LawFitz]

Glimpses of special so far from Achane (lots) and McGlaughlin (a few). Just for comparison.

Now that doesn't mean those two are for sure going to be special, or even better than Gibbs. Long road ahead still, but yeah, I agree that special players typically show us glimpses early on.

 

[massraider]

LeVeon Bell had 244 rushing attempts averaging 3.5 ypc which wasnt great. He did perform well as a receiver though. Bell greatly improved in his 2nd season adding almost 1000 total yards to his rookie season and had 4.7 ypc that year

This is the definite outlier. He came back his 2nd year and looked completely different. Great example

 

[LawFitz]

I won't bother posting Achane as that's pretty unfair at this point, but let's compare the best games (so far) of Gibbs v. McGlaughlin... Can you spot the differences?

Jahmyr Gibbs Every Run and Catch @ Kansas City Chiefs | 2023 Week 1 | Fantasy Football Film

Jahmyr Gibbs RB Detroit Lions2023 Week 1 @ Kansas City ChiefsRushing: 7 carries, 42 yardsReceiving: 2 targets, 2 receptions, 18 yards00:00 Intro00:07 1st Qua...

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And before we get into sample size, I agree, these clips are not enough to make definitive conclusions about either player. All I am trying to convey is that to my eye, McG looked special in his "breakout" game, while Gibbs looked decent/okay. Adding color to the comments about special vs. not special.

 

[kyoun1e]

I won't bother posting Achane as that's pretty unfair at this point, but let's compare the best games (so far) of Gibbs v. McGlaughlin... Can you spot the differences?

Jahmyr Gibbs Every Run and Catch @ Kansas City Chiefs | 2023 Week 1 | Fantasy Football Film

Jahmyr Gibbs RB Detroit Lions2023 Week 1 @ Kansas City ChiefsRushing: 7 carries, 42 yardsReceiving: 2 targets, 2 receptions, 18 yards00:00 Intro00:07 1st Qua...

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And before we get into sample size, I agree, these clips are not enough to make definitive conclusions about either player. All I am trying to convey is that to my eye, McG looked special in his "breakout" game, while Gibbs looked decent/okay. Adding color to the comments about special vs. not special.

My big takeaway from this: Brian Robinson is going to have a huge game tonight.

 

[jrt103]

Just bought Gibbs for Khalil Herbert.

As a Herbert owner, I'd make that same deal

 

[kyoun1e]

Just bought Gibbs for Khalil Herbert.

As a Herbert owner, I'd make that same deal

Interesting.

I have the Gibbs owner almost biting on J. Warren. Not sure I'd want to give up Herbert for Gibbs.

 

[Chaka]

Joe Mixon was pretty unspecial his rookie year. He's done okay.

Aaron Jones, James Conner. Mark Ingram didn't hit his stride until year 4-5 or so.

None of these backs are special. Maybe Jones is close, but nah.

Okay =/= special.

If Jones doesn't qualify as special, no one does.

1,529 yards (5.1 y/a), 54 receptions (7.8 y/r) and 13 TDs per year* from years 2-6 (yes, adjusted for missed games).

He was pretty great his rookie year too but with Brett Hundley under center the team apparently thought Ty Montgomery (3rd year) & Jamaal Williams (also a rookie) were maybe a little better at the details than Jones so he didn't get as much opportunity until after Montgomery got hurt.

 

[Chaka]

Just bought Gibbs for Khalil Herbert.

As a Herbert owner, I'd make that same deal

Interesting.

I have the Gibbs owner almost biting on J. Warren. Not sure I'd want to give up Herbert for Gibbs.

Just traded away Herbert in a package to get Pittman. I also have Gibbs and would not have accepted if he was part of the counter proposal.

 

[LawFitz]

running fast in a straight line.

He did way more than this IMO. He was seeing gaps and holes and using quick cuts at full speed to get to them. Gibbs had similar opportunities, but doesn’t have the same instincts and vision. At least that's my read of it.

 

[Biabreakable]

I won't bother posting Achane as that's pretty unfair at this point, but let's compare the best games (so far) of Gibbs v. McGlaughlin... Can you spot the differences?

Jahmyr Gibbs Every Run and Catch @ Kansas City Chiefs | 2023 Week 1 | Fantasy Football Film

Jahmyr Gibbs RB Detroit Lions2023 Week 1 @ Kansas City ChiefsRushing: 7 carries, 42 yardsReceiving: 2 targets, 2 receptions, 18 yards00:00 Intro00:07 1st Qua...

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And before we get into sample size, I agree, these clips are not enough to make definitive conclusions about either player. All I am trying to convey is that to my eye, McG looked special in his "breakout" game, while Gibbs looked decent/okay. Adding color to the comments about special vs. not special.

I dont think the Lions vs KC was Gibbs best game so far. That was likely his game vs Atlanta.

The Bears defense is so bad compared to either KC or Atlanta defenses. There are huge holes, defenders in position to make a play but over running it or just looking slow and flat footed. They are never winning the LOS. Atlanta and KC do win the LOS several times and are not nearly as bad at the 2nd level as the Bears defenders are.

Lets compare when the Lions play the Bears. Too bad Montgomery will likely be featured a lot vs the Bears when they do play.

That said I do like McGlaughlin. Just comparing him to Gibbs independent of the defense I would say he has quicker feet than Gibbs does and better pad level. He doesn't trip over his own feet the way Gibbs has.

 

[Biabreakable]

running fast in a straight line.

He did way more than this IMO. He was seeing gaps and holes and using quick cuts at full speed to get to them. Gibbs had similar opportunities, but doesn’t have the same instincts and vision. At least that's my read of it.

I disagree about Gibbs having similar opportunities.

 

[One]

I won't bother posting Achane as that's pretty unfair at this point, but let's compare the best games (so far) of Gibbs v. McGlaughlin... Can you spot the differences?

Jahmyr Gibbs Every Run and Catch @ Kansas City Chiefs | 2023 Week 1 | Fantasy Football Film

Jahmyr Gibbs RB Detroit Lions2023 Week 1 @ Kansas City ChiefsRushing: 7 carries, 42 yardsReceiving: 2 targets, 2 receptions, 18 yards00:00 Intro00:07 1st Qua...

youtu.be

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Enjoy the videos and music you love, upload original content, and share it all with friends, family, and the world on YouTube.

youtu.be

And before we get into sample size, I agree, these clips are not enough to make definitive conclusions about either player. All I am trying to convey is that to my eye, McG looked special in his "breakout" game, while Gibbs looked decent/okay. Adding color to the comments about special vs. not special.

Anything against the Bears and Broncos should be taken lightly.

 

[Chaka]

Chiefs have dudes on defense. Bears do not.

Brian Robinson would like a word.

 

[smcindoe]

Just bought Gibbs for Khalil Herbert.

As a Herbert owner, I'd make that same deal

Interesting.

I have the Gibbs owner almost biting on J. Warren. Not sure I'd want to give up Herbert for Gibbs.

Since this pairing seems to be coming up a lot: I own both, and at this point I think I'd still prefer Gibbs in terms of season-long outlook.

 

[jobarules]

Just bought Gibbs for Khalil Herbert.

Oops

 

[jobarules]

Just bought Gibbs for Khalil Herbert.

As a Herbert owner, I'd make that same deal

Oops

 

[humpback]

Again, this is a COMPLETELY different point since the original statement was that he struggled his first year, which no one can make a reasonable argument for.

However, you're wrong about this new point too. Taylor averaged 14 ppg his first 4 games, Gibbs was 9.7, for goodness sake.

On the one hand you are saying that we are talking about a year scale then you follow it up by saying Taylor was better to this point.

That still wasn't the question. Year 1 isn't 4 or 8 games. Even if you want to change the timeframe, Taylor still outperformed what Gibbs has done so far by a pretty decent margin.

We can't speak to the year, and I anticipate because of the presence of Montgomery, who is better than Jordan Wilkins btw, Taylor will end up having the better rookie season. Then again if Marlon Mack doesn't rupture his achilles in week one JT's first year would have probably shaped up a lot like Gibbs's is so far.

To your shortened time frame point; no JT was not better "so far by a pretty decent margin". On his first 39 carries he had 140 yards (3.6 ypc) to 179 yards for Gibbs (4.6 ypc). Over his first 18 targets JT had 17 receptions for 167 yards (9.8 y/r) and Gibbs has 14 receptions for 70 yards (5 y/r). He didn't hit 18 targets until his seventh game, sixth as a starter, tallying 100 carries over that time frame.

The original question was, and I quote, "How many rookie RBs struggle year one and succeed later (in today's NFL)"? Then another poster replied "And Jonathan Taylor is the answer you're looking for". Then I responded to that by pointing out that Taylor was incredibly good and a RB1 his rookie season. I agree that we don't know Gibbs' full year, but that was the context of his question, it was based on a full rookie season.

Then you and he started talking about different time frames besides a full rookie season. Again, not what the conversation was about originally, but If you want to compare the 1st 4 games of their careers, Taylors was clearly better. You're hypothetical of if something else happened is silly because there's no way of knowing and it obviously didn't happen- all we know is what did happen, and Taylor outscored Gibbs by ~44% in his first 4 games. WTH cares about his ypc over a certain number of carries? We're talking about their fantasy performance, and yes, if Gibbs had 2 TDs in his first 4 games like Taylor did people would be a less disappointed than they are.

Bottom line, JT is not an example of someone who struggled year 1 and then succeeded later. If you want to change the timeframe, he also didn't "struggle" nearly as much as Gibbs over his first 4 games.

 

[Chaka]

Just bought Gibbs for Khalil Herbert.

As a Herbert owner, I'd make that same deal

Oops

LOL love the cherry pick.

Just traded Herbert as part of a package for Pittman. Refused to swap Gibbs for Herbert.

Love Herbert's ability just hate his team. Right, wrong or otherwise in this kind of situation I back the guy on the team I think will win the most games.

 

[SproutDaddy]

Just bought Gibbs for Khalil Herbert.

As a Herbert owner, I'd make that same deal

Oops

LOL love the cherry pick.

Just traded Herbert as part of a package for Pittman. Refused to swap Gibbs for Herbert.

Love Herbert's ability just hate his team. Right, wrong or otherwise in this kind of situation I back the guy on the team I think will win the most games.

And if you’ve ever had Herbert on a previous team, you know these games are sprinkled in every year as a tease to start him going forward. He’ll never be used how he should be in Chicago unfortunately.

 

[jobarules]

whopping 7.60 points and now he's hurt

people are so desperate to take instant victory laps

Meh can't predict injuries

 

[Banger]

Gibbs biggest problem is that he was overdrafted by the fantasy community.

 

[Chaka]

Again, this is a COMPLETELY different point since the original statement was that he struggled his first year, which no one can make a reasonable argument for.

However, you're wrong about this new point too. Taylor averaged 14 ppg his first 4 games, Gibbs was 9.7, for goodness sake.

On the one hand you are saying that we are talking about a year scale then you follow it up by saying Taylor was better to this point.

That still wasn't the question. Year 1 isn't 4 or 8 games. Even if you want to change the timeframe, Taylor still outperformed what Gibbs has done so far by a pretty decent margin.

We can't speak to the year, and I anticipate because of the presence of Montgomery, who is better than Jordan Wilkins btw, Taylor will end up having the better rookie season. Then again if Marlon Mack doesn't rupture his achilles in week one JT's first year would have probably shaped up a lot like Gibbs's is so far.

To your shortened time frame point; no JT was not better "so far by a pretty decent margin". On his first 39 carries he had 140 yards (3.6 ypc) to 179 yards for Gibbs (4.6 ypc). Over his first 18 targets JT had 17 receptions for 167 yards (9.8 y/r) and Gibbs has 14 receptions for 70 yards (5 y/r). He didn't hit 18 targets until his seventh game, sixth as a starter, tallying 100 carries over that time frame.

The original question was, and I quote, "How many rookie RBs struggle year one and succeed later (in today's NFL)"? Then another poster replied "And Jonathan Taylor is the answer you're looking for". Then I responded to that by pointing out that Taylor was incredibly good and a RB1 his rookie season. I agree that we don't know Gibbs' full year, but that was the context of his question, it was based on a full rookie season.

Then you and he started talking about different time frames besides a full rookie season. Again, not what the conversation was about originally, but If you want to compare the 1st 4 games of their careers, Taylors was clearly better. You're hypothetical of if something else happened is silly because there's no way of knowing and it obviously didn't happen- all we know is what did happen, and Taylor outscored Gibbs by ~44% in his first 4 games. WTH cares about his ypc over a certain number of carries? We're talking about their fantasy performance, and yes, if Gibbs had 2 TDs in his first 4 games like Taylor did people would be a less disappointed than they are.

Bottom line, JT is not an example of someone who struggled year 1 and then succeeded later. If you want to change the timeframe, he also didn't "struggle" nearly as much as Gibbs over his first 4 games.

Okay. My bad, you're good.

 

[jobarules]

Leveon Bell was a good example

 

[jobarules]

Gibbs biggest problem is that he was overdrafted by the fantasy community.

And the lions

 

[Chaka]

Gibbs biggest problem is that he was overdrafted by the fantasy community.

And the lions

I respect that you have planted your flag so strongly. Part of me hopes you're right.

 

[humpback]

Gibbs biggest problem is that he was overdrafted by the fantasy community.

And the lions

Playing like he's wearing ice skates and mittens isn't helping either.

 

[jobarules]

Gibbs biggest problem is that he was overdrafted by the fantasy community.

And the lions

I respect that you have planted your flag so strongly. Part of me hopes you're right.

Huh? Wasn't it general consensus that Lions drafted him way sooner than most experts expected?

 

[Banger]

Guys..”we’ all wrote the script….we assumed high draft pick= the starter day 1 and be Jamaal Williams +. The team didnt say that…we guessed and guessed wrong. He’s looked good from what I’ve seen but doesn’t have the role yet. I like his chances to be a top back but the timing is the question….

 

[Chaka]

Gibbs biggest problem is that he was overdrafted by the fantasy community.

And the lions

I respect that you have planted your flag so strongly. Part of me hopes you're right.

Huh? Wasn't it general consensus that Lions drafted him way sooner than most experts expected?

I said I respect it. I meant it.

 

[LawFitz]

lil' Jaleel

It didn't look to my eyes like he was creating, he was - decisively - taking what was there.

We'll just have to disagree on this one. Big time, but respectfully.

 

[infantsam]

I only played him twice. I over like the speedy Det guys for some reason but it's not there yet. There is a very real chance for a major impact at some point though. Not a guy to drop yet.

The team's identity is more established after week 4 and we sould expect some attempt to conserve DMo but the passing game for him is not yet as expected maybe mostly with the emergence of LaPorta. Seems Gibbs is the one they take away which is almost odd given AMSR and LaPorta etc. That could change with the other fast guy showing up.

Talented O with mouths to feed but not sure I see consistent high score games to feed them all.

If he'd establish a better floor he could be flex'd in hopes of a few blowup games to grab some W's but not yet unless you are in a deep league.

 

[jon_mx]

This should be a good day for Gibbs. ARSB is banged up, but will probably play. I think the Lions control the game and will grind it out. Carolina is 27th on run defense. Both Gibbs and Monty will see 15 touches.

 

[FarFromHome]

This should be a good day for Gibbs. ARSB is banged up, but will probably play. I think the Lions control the game and will grind it out. Carolina is 27th on run defense. Both Gibbs and Monty will see 15 touches.

A grind out game feels more Monty then Gibbs. Just feels like your waiting for the one big play from him to provide value. Not what your wanting in 3rd or maybe 4th round pick. I own shares of neither.

 

[kyoun1e]

This should be a good day for Gibbs. ARSB is banged up, but will probably play. I think the Lions control the game and will grind it out. Carolina is 27th on run defense. Both Gibbs and Monty will see 15 touches.

Just traded for him. Gave up J. Warren and R. Doubs. Already have Monty. Wanted to secure this backfield in case of Monty injury.

Thinking of starting both for the above reason. CAR much worse against the run vs. the pass.

And actually, I'm also starting the DET D and R. Patterson lol.

If DET rolls, I roll basically. If they come out flat I'm screwed.

 

[jon_mx]

This should be a good day for Gibbs. ARSB is banged up, but will probably play. I think the Lions control the game and will grind it out. Carolina is 27th on run defense. Both Gibbs and Monty will see 15 touches.

Just traded for him. Gave up J. Warren and R. Doubs. Already have Monty. Wanted to secure this backfield in case of Monty injury.

Thinking of starting both for the above reason. CAR much worse against the run vs. the pass.

And actually, I'm also starting the DET D and R. Patterson lol.

If DET rolls, I roll basically. If they come out flat I'm screwed.

I am not sure if Campbell understands that field goals are an option.

 

[Da Guru]

Gibbs biggest problem is that he was overdrafted by the fantasy community.

I said before Gibby will have more value to the Lions than to FF teams. Will probably be the same with Williams.

Not to say they won`t have some nice games but they Open up stuff for others.

 

[kyoun1e]

This should be a good day for Gibbs. ARSB is banged up, but will probably play. I think the Lions control the game and will grind it out. Carolina is 27th on run defense. Both Gibbs and Monty will see 15 touches.

Just traded for him. Gave up J. Warren and R. Doubs. Already have Monty. Wanted to secure this backfield in case of Monty injury.

Thinking of starting both for the above reason. CAR much worse against the run vs. the pass.

And actually, I'm also starting the DET D and R. Patterson lol.

If DET rolls, I roll basically. If they come out flat I'm screwed.

I am not sure if Campbell understands that field goals are an option.

Well I think the logic here is that DET gets up big and plays conservative in the 2nd half and maybe there are FG opportunities.

 

[Smack Tripper]

Damn it you guys are talking me into going back to the well

 

[humpback]

This should be a good day for Gibbs. ARSB is banged up, but will probably play. I think the Lions control the game and will grind it out. Carolina is 27th on run defense. Both Gibbs and Monty will see 15 touches.

I don't think you can have a more "grind it out" game than last week when they ran the ball 43 times, and we all saw how that worked out for Gibbs. Why on earth should we expect it to be 50/50 this week if it's a similar situation?

A grind out game feels more Monty then Gibbs. Just feels like your waiting for the one big play from him to provide value. Not what your wanting in 3rd or maybe 4th round pick. I own shares of neither.

Agreed. The issue is that every game feels more Monty than Gibbs, it's simply about how large of a margin.