Lord Lucan
Footballguy
Closing in on the 2-minute warning Bush has 11 carries for minus 5 yards. Anyone know what the record number of carries for one player yet still resulting in negative overall yardage is?
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Record carries for negative yardage? (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Lord Lucan
- Start date
GregR_2
Footballguy
Eric Rhett week 13 of 1995. 13 carries for -1 yards.Pittman also had 11 carries for -1 yards in 2000 against the Jags.
SSOG
Moderator
Shame. Well, we can always hope that Reggie Bush just set the record for the worst ypc by a player with 10+ carries.Reggie Bush makes my blood boil. I genuinely despise him. It's not anything that he's done, really, it's just the fact that I see him in more commercials than all other NFL athletes combined. I don't hold it against him- if someone offered me such ridiculous sums of money before I ever played a single down of football, I'd jump at it, too... but at this point, I'm hoping that Bush becomes the biggest bust of all time so that maybe, possibly, we can someday change this LUDICROUS rookie payscale and marketing situation. It's a complete and utter sham.I'm sure Reggie's a nice enough guy, but the more spectacularly he flames out, the happier I'll be. It's a horrible thing to say, but hopefully Reggie Bush can take comfort in the tens of millions of dollars that he never earned.GregR said:
Wow spoken like a true Bush Hater, do you have room for 1 more on that bandwagon?
SSOG
Moderator
There's room for anyone who thinks that it's absolutely ridiculous that, before he ever took so much as a single NFL PRACTICE SNAP, Reggie Bush became the highest paid RB in the NFL, ahead of Tomlinson, Alexander, Larry Johnson, Clinton Portis, Tiki Barber, and company.Ludicrous. Simply ludicrous.
Catching passes, blocking and decoying down?I'm pretty sure he was drafted to help the Saints win, not to help your non-PPR fantasy team
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Add another one tied with Rhett. One that makes a lot of sense actually. One that makes Bush look not as bad possibly.Barry Sanders: 13 rushes for -1 yards against the Packers on December 31, 1994.(I believe that Sanders also had a game against Buffalo where he came very close to having negative yardage as well)GregR said:
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Mr. Brownstone
Footballguy
If he looks like Peyton Manning in those commercials, then I agree with you.
Gargoylez
Footballguy
I don't like Reggie either.... but I am hoping he succeeds... he was a highlight reel in college... and I love seeing GREAT plays, I mean WHO doesnt...I know Rbush is helping them win games, but he has really under acheived this year, NO ONE can argue that... with an offense as good as the Saints have going... how can he be so bad. Is he worth the money?NO. That, at this time, is uncontestable. He is NOT worth the money. If he can get on track and realize its a football game and not a dance competition, that its the NFL not NCAA and that getting 3 yards ona power run is alot better then -1 with some dance moves.Utter Chaos
Footballguy
Ray Zellars is the only other RB who had 10 or more carries for negative yardage.
1996 New Orleans vs Atlanta / 10 carries for -4 yards.
1996 New Orleans vs Atlanta / 10 carries for -4 yards.
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this could go two ways. Alot of backs come into the pro's from college and think they can dance behind the line and break big plays all the time, and they are met with the same kind of success that Bush has been garnering. Then around Week 10 or so, they finally figure out that its better to take what you can get then trying to hit a HR everytime, and they start gaining positive yards. I believe Michael Bennett was this way in his rookie year. TORE up the PreSeason, sucked for like 10 weeks and then was OK after that. I see no signs of inside running from Bush. He COULD run inside, he just doesn't WANT to.
GregR_2
Footballguy
Drinen's database only goes back to 1995 it looks like, for individual games. Out of curiousity, where did you find stats for 1994?
Mudcrab
Footballguy
Fantasy-wise he has REALLY sucked. NFL-wise, the Saints are 6-2. He's not the main reason for that, but he's had a role in it. I'm a Saints fan, happy to have him, but wasn't expecting too much from him this year (aside from what he's been doing for the team) and so I don't have him in any of my leagues.
I do agree that in general rookies are WAY overpaid, and Bush is a prime example of that.
I do agree that in general rookies are WAY overpaid, and Bush is a prime example of that.
I'm pretty sure the Saints expected more than a high paid decoy.
Limp Ditka
Footballguy
The only? It seems to me that there are 3 or 4 other instances mentioned before you posted this.
GregR_2
Footballguy
As in, the only other one not already mentioned.Another interesting factoid. Worst rushing performance since 1995, Andre Johnson 2003 against Buffalo. 1 carry for -34 yards. Johnson took a snap at the end of the game and ran backwards, eluding tacklers while running out the clock.
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packersfan
Footballguy
What's surprised me - shocked me really - is how bad Bush looks running the ball. He is BY FAR the worst rookie RB I've seen this season in terms of the ability to run the ball. Even with defenses focusing on him he still should look better running the ball than he has. But compare him to guys like Maroney, Addai, Jones-Drew and Norwood and you see all of them look so much better running the ball. Even LenDale White has looked better and he barely plays. I can appreciate him being affected by the attention he receives from defenses but given his talent and the overall success of the Saints' offense this season there's really no excuse for him to look so pathetic running the ball in my opinion.
GregR_2
Footballguy
Yeah, I agree. I have a hard time believing his skills/talents won't translate to the NFL level. There might be something to what was said earlier about he needs to adjust and learn when to take what he can get and not try to break the big run every time.I also wouldn't be surprised if the way he's being used kind of all over the place doesn't help him get into a groove in the running game. But still, I expected more out of him even if you give that any credence.
Is there ANY chance he becomes a RB who runs it 18-22 times a game, grinding out 100 yards on the ground? I just don't see Bush running the ball 16-18-20-22 times. He's a 3rd down type back. They're using him perfectly, and he's doing pretty well. But a primary RB? I don't see it.I have more faith Drew will be a workload RB. At least he's getting GL work. Drew might be short, but he's 100x more physical then Bush. I've seen him smoke 2-3 DBs at the end of his runs. Bush is usually running out of bounds then the makeup artist does some quick touch up before he runs back to the huddle.Add me to the list of people who were wrong about Bush.I really thought he was going to be an impact rookie. He has had some impact (as a decoy mainly) but hasn't been nearly the force I thought he would.
Bottomfeeder Sports
Footballguy
1994 Game by Game Stats has been on the internet for a while, however there some issues with this database. That is beyond not being updated since 2000.1994 B. Sanders
However I think he is talking about round one of the play-offs ...
Box Score (Team only)
GroveDiesel
Footballguy
Just dumb luck on finding that game actually. I know that there was a game that the Bills completely shut down Sanders and I was googling Barry Sanders worst performance Buffalo and a link about the GB game popped up. I still wasn't able to find the Buffalo game though
Fixed
I know Rbush is helping them win games, but he has really under acheived this year, NO ONE can argue that... with an offense as good as the Saints have going... how can he be so bad. Is he worth the money?
NO. That, at this time, is uncontestable. He is NOT worth the money. If he can get on track and realize its a football game and not a dance competition, that its the NFL not NCAA Pac-10 and that getting 3 yards ona power run is alot better then -1 with some dance moves.
packersfan
Footballguy
That's true and I'll continue to say that at some point I have to think defenses will stop paying so much attention to him. Why are they continuing to focus so heavily on him when he isn't doing anything with the ball in his hands? That makes zero sense - especially given how so many other Saints are killing them. I'm not a defensive coordinator but it seems to me we've reached the point where it's probably better to see if Bush can beat teams rather than focusing so much attention on him and ignoring the Saint players who actually are doing some serious damage.
King of the Jungle
Footballguy
This is a good point. I think this last game may be the transistion point. With Horn out, the Saints continued to make TB pay big for focusing on Bush. Playaction to Colston and Henderson sealed the deal. Let us hope that the coaching staff sets Bush straight and teaches how to gain positive yardage in the run game.
John Mamula
Moderator
jealous much?
John Mamula
Moderator
understanding of nfl contracts down?
John Mamula
Moderator
I watched those 3 TD's on ESPN and only 1 was off a play action to Bush. The others seemed to just have him in and blocking.I also watched plenty of other games yesterday, including the Texans/Giants game where the game winning TD came off play-action to Jacobs. The play-action pass was something offenses successfully used pre-Bush. It boggles me with all the credit folks try to give this dude.
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Utter Chaos
Footballguy
Yep, that's exactly what I meant, "the only other one not already mentioned". Sorry for any confusion. Actually I probably should add "since 1995" as well.
Utter Chaos
Footballguy
Barry vs Buffalo in 1994 / 19 carries for 45 yards1989 1990 1991 1992 1993 1994 1995 1996 1997 1998Just dumb luck on finding that game actually. I know that there was a game that the Bills completely shut down Sanders and I was googling Barry Sanders worst performance Buffalo and a link about the GB game popped up. I still wasn't able to find the Buffalo game though
Barry's worst game with 10+ carries came in 1990 against New Orleans (12 carries 10 yards).
His worst game with <10 carries was 1989 vs Pittsburgh (5 carries 1 yard)
AnonymousBob
Footballguy
:Irony:
ren hoek
Footballguy
I doubt it.
Delusions Of Adequacy
Footballguy
I think he understands nfl contracts well enough, as do we all. It's just that the system is dysfunctional.I've also heard a number of interviews with nfl veterans who believe something needs to be done about nfl rookie contracts. After all, there's a salary cap in place, which means every $1M for an unproven rookie is $1M less for proven players on the team.
John Mamula
Moderator
this statement tells me you don't understand nfl contracts.the majority of bush's contract (as with all contracts) are backloaded and will likely never see that. the only guaranteed money that can go against some proven vet is the current year's salary and the prorated amount of his signing bonus.
Delusions Of Adequacy
Footballguy
Again, we understand the contracts well enough. If you don't think the $20+M Bush received as a signing bonus doesn't affect the team salary cap, and thus the $$ the veterans make, you don't understand. If you think as a young player he won't see most of the 6 year deal, again you don't understand.Older players don't see most of the money in their contracts. Not true of young stars.
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GregR_2
Footballguy
Is your issue with rookie salaries, or with Bush's specifically?
Assani Fisher
Footballguy
You see Reggie in more commercials than Peyton Manning?
SSOG
Moderator
His blocking isn't as good as McAllister's, and his receiving isn't anything to write home about, either. According to Football Outsiders, he has been the 17th best receiving RB in the entire NFL on a per-play basis, and 13th in total aggregate value... and any marginal positive value he has receiving is more than lost again in his running, which ranks 49th out of 49 running backs in terms of value per play and total aggregate value.It's sad that the highest paid RB in the entire NFL's biggest contribution to his entire team is to run around pretending that they might possibly get the ball to him (although, hopefully for the team's sake they don't, because he's been absolutely brutal with it).Would Tomlinson be worth his contract as a decoy and nothing more? Would Alexander? Because Reggie Bush is getting paid more than either of those players, or Portis, or Tiki Barber, or Larry Johnson, or any other RB in the entire NFL. Because of the salary cap, he is actively HURTING his team- if it weren't for all of that cap space being wasted on Reggie Bush, maybe New Orleans could have brought in some players to help its overmatched defense. Or kept LeCharles Bentley. And if they hadn't spent the draft pick on Bush, the Saints could have had Maroney, Addai, Jones-Drew, Norwood, or traded the pick for a king's ransom and picked up one of those RBs later. There's really no way around it- the presence of Reggie Bush, with his poor performance and ridiculous cost- has done nothing but hurt the New Orleans Saints.And for the record, I don't own Reggie Bush in any league. This isn't a jaded fantasy owner crying about his team. This is a jaded NFL fan crying about rookie payscales. If you don't think that the fact that Reggie Bush makes more money than LaDanian Tomlinson is the most absurd thing you've ever heard, then you've officially lost your mind. I mean, seriously... what has Reggie Bush done to show he was worth even a fifth of that $26 million guaranteed, or that $51 million dollar contract?
Jealous of getting $26 million guaranteed for performing like the worst running back in the NFL? Absolutely. I would absolutely be the worst RB in the entire NFL if a team signed me, and I'd love to make $26 million this year for doing it.
No, but I'd say that yours is.Reggie Bush received $26 million in guaranteed money. That's the highest any RB has ever received, so even if New Orleans cuts him, he's still the highest-paid RB in NFL history. Heck, if they cut him earlier, he just winds up making *MORE* on a per-year basis, since he's getting $26 million this year, and then another $26 million or so distributed over the next 5.
Rookies never get cut unless they completely suck the big one for years on end. David Carr, Tomlinson, Vick, Charles Rogers, Big Mike Williams... all of these guys are going to see the overwhelming majority of their rookie contract numbers. The reason why Vets don't usually see the backloaded portion of their contracts is because they enter free agency when they're past their primes, so by the time they hit the end of their contracts they're consistantly getting worse. Rookies, on the other hand, sign contracts when they're well short of their prime, and generally hit their prime towards the end of the contract, so if a team cuts them it's like the team paid them ridiculous sums of money for their pre-prime years and then refused to pay substantially less during their actual prime years. That'd be lunacy.People say that contracts are backloaded, but relatively speaking, rookie contracts are ridiculously frontloaded. Usually, up to 50% of the cash value of the contract is paid out in the first season. You'll have a hard time arguing that Bush's contract is backloaded when he made more money this year than he is scheduled to earn during the entire remaining lifetime of his contract.bagger said:
Yeah. That stupid Subway commercial is on all the freaking time, and a couple of months ago I couldn't turn on the TV without seeing the dumb Diet Pepsi Machine commercials.Maybe it just seems like there are more Bush commercials than Peyton commercials because they suck so hard. I don't know.Assani Fisher said:
GregR_2
Footballguy
Just one comment. It may be technically true that Bush is the highest paid RB in the NFL because his per-year average his currently higher than other RBs.But it seems like the focus of the discussion is on how it affects his team, and in that regards, Bush is not the highest paid RB in the NFL, LT is. What I mean is, LT's contract came at a time when the salary cap was $80.5 million dollars. Given the length of contracts and possibility of being cut or renegotiating before they end, it can be difficult to equate contracts. But let's at least try. I'll propose we look at the average yearly pay over the life of the contract compared to the salary cap in the year it was signed. Using this, in the first year of LT's contract, he was taking up 9.3% of his team's cap room. By comparison, Bush came into the league with a salary cap that had increased by 26% over what it was when LT signed. Of course you should expect new signees to make more money because there is more money to be paid out. Using the same measure, Bush is taking up 8.3% of his team's cap.To draw some other comparable picks into the mix, using the same measure Ronnie Brown and Cedric Benson both took up 8.2% of their team's caps. Ok, but what about LT's rookie contract? LT's rookie contract was worth an average of $6.3m a year when the salary cap was worth $67.4m, so using this same measure, he used 9.3% of his team's cap in his rookie contract too.There's an argument to be made that Bush isn't living up to what he's making (and if we're going to make that argument, then to be fair Bush is a value compared to what Cedric Benson has contributed). But as far as relating player's salaries, I don't think that a straight up comparison is necessarily accurate or appropriate.LT surely knew he'd make more money overall doing a series of one-year contracts that can take full advantage of the ever-increasing salary cap. He instead opted for the security of the multi-year contract. He's free to ask management to renegotiate it just like they are free to ask him to renegotiate. But I don't think it's really appropriate to consider a 2004 contract to a 2006 contract by straight up dollars and not account for the change in the cap.
