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Ren's old crypto thread || we know how to buy this stuff now (4 Viewers)

culdeus said:
If you believe in the tech, does that mean automatically you need to have a huge stash of coins?  I mean I believe in all sorts of tech, but I only have and operate it to the point where it meets my needs.  

Once you disconnect technology from investment you have to look at why you invest in this?  What value will your coin bring in the future, over today?  Why does the value of the coin inherently have to go up?  Does going up prevent, or harm adoption?  Do you want adoption?  Really?  

Blockchain tech is great, you can use the blockchain tech without involving coins.  That's the main worry I have.  There's no definable reason we have to have a offline storage for value.

If Amex or someone wants to start using blockchain to process transactions, ok, great.  I mean today, I swiped my card to get a double espresso.  Before I even picked it up, literally within maybe 2s, Amex pinged my phone to notify me on the TX.  What value does blockchain bring to Amex? Lower costs? Ok, but why would they need to denominate this in anything but USD?  

These are the questions I have, watching people talk coins, seeing 0 adoption whatsoever, and transactions seem just speculative.  I like the concept, but the investment shouldn't be treated like a litmus test on whether you like the technology, and your value and love of the tech shouldn't determine your investment volume.

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I’ve said the coins have little value compared to the tech for a long time - the response has typically been I have no clue wtf I’m talking about :shrug:

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
I appreciate the discussion on this.

It's not like I will personally ever use an Ether token to develop a smart contract or pay for a transaction on the Ethereum network.  BUT, if the tech is here to stay, then there will be a high demand for those tokens by the developers on the Ethereum network and anyone who creates smart contracts etc... This has nothing to do with USD vs ETH.  It's not like ETH is going to replace USD, it's simply a specific form of currency designed to be used on the Ethereum network.  So yes, the value of the tokens and the belief/adoption of the technology are absolutely correlated.  I guess my question to you is: how are they not related?  Why else would anyone invest in any of these tokens unless they're just along for the ride and read about it on Reddit?  I heard about BTC in 2009 but didn't see the value in it.  And BTC by the way is a separate discussion as it is NOT the same as Ethereum.  It has the same blockchain technology, but BTC is simply a currency.  It offers no other use such as smart contracts.  Ethereum took that idea and was created with a flexible, open-minded approach that you can have that transparent, self-auditing component on ANYTHING (such as agreements, executing contractual actions once the conditions are met).

Maybe this is a poor analogy but to me, investing in ETH is not too much different than say investing in a stock for a computer chip (say Intel 20 years ago).  IF you believe in the technology and the mass adoption of it (home computers, smart phones, tablets etc...) then investing in a necessary and needed component within that network is an excellent idea and IF you're right about the mass adoption of that product/technology, then you will absolutely make money on that investment.  They are completely dependent on each other.  That bolded portion is the key in all of this.  IF Ethereum is here to stay and IF it becomes Internet 2.0 (which many think it is) and IF Ethereum is the largest network in which smart contracts and business transactions are executed, then investing in the coins IS the best way for Joe Shmoe to capitalize on this new technology.  I won't use an ETHER coin ever (presumably) but the developers and business who use it will most definitely use those coins.  And with a limited supply and a growing network, I foresee the value of those coins going UP.
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I mean that's great and all but you still need to be able to tie the core asset to something, you haven't explained why the coin value must go up to sustain the technology.  Why can't the technology exist with a stable infrastructure paying people out based on the transaction volume they manage to process?  

If you say, ok well USD value went down, and ero BTC rises as a result to factor that in so people don't use BTC as a de-facto arbitrage system, fine.  I get that part.  But BTC price is wholly disconnected from FOREX and driven by factors that don't quite add up really.

I mean one of the things about BTC that made the most sense to me was that when all the coins are distributed, then you get paid based on tx volume traffic.  That gets a nice amount of early adopters in and going, and a stable long term payoff with the understanding you can do the txs and make margin over the power/hardware consumable.  The problem that is present today is that once BTC maxes out, off the power consumption will be so high as to make doing further mining pointless, therefore driving value to 0.  

ETH seems to be better conceived, but make no mistake BTC drives this bus.  Once BTC goes to zero, and it will, the entire confidence in the tech will be shaken.  My bet is on the other side there will be no "coins", just blockchain tech used by banks to make their transactions more seamless.  And that's fine.

 
fantasycurse42 said:
I’ve said the coins have little value compared to the tech for a long time - the response has typically been I have no clue wtf I’m talking about :shrug:
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Me too. Coins are needed for a transaction, but if the buyer and seller pass their USD or other foreign currency into the blockchain and back out in milliseconds like a Visa card transaction (ignore the model of Visa basically floating loans) where is the "value" in the coin. Why do I need to buy up coins or invest in them for the long term.

I see @Rhythmdoctor's post about computer chip investing and don't see the comparison. Right now, people can invest in Visa or Amex. They don't invest in the "coin" that they use to process credit card transactions. Same with the Ethereum network, there is a company that will be making money off of the blockchain transactions. I assume that's the foundation or investors in the foundation. I think investing in the company that owns the network is the investment play, not the "fuel" of the network. Coins will always have a value because there is going to be a conversion rate from EURs, USDs, etc., but I don't see them as being long term investments. 99% of the people in this world don't think about the intrinsic value of the currency in their accounts. There are currency traders and currencies that increase/decrease with respect to the others, but they don't change like cryptocurrencies have or have devotees that believe in the EUR that it will be worth 10x what is is in 6 months.

I'd be interested in investing in real companies that will make money off of transactions, but I don't think I'll invest in the coins which I don't see as long term investments. With inflation, most people would laugh at someone holding on to dollar bills hoping they'll go up in value. Also, what does a limited supply of coins actually mean when people continue to create new ones and there are forks and other ways to create new coins. They are in no way shape or form limited.

 
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The UAE just announced their "Blockchain Strategy 2021" with a goal to conduct 50% of federal government transactions using blockchain tech by 2021. They estimate it will save $3 Billion annually.

 
Moody's has issued a report estimating that blockchain tech could save the US mortgage industry over $1 Billion by reducing redundancies and driving costs lower.

 
Five large healthcare companies (Humana, MultiPlan, Quest Diagnostics, Optum and UnitedHealthcare) are piloting blockchain technology in effort to make the sharing and storing of data more efficient.

 
urbanhack said:
Moody's has issued a report estimating that blockchain tech could save the US mortgage industry over $1 Billion by reducing redundancies and driving costs lower.
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In theory it could make title as we know it obsolete along with the county recording process. 

 
culdeus said:
I mean that's great and all but you still need to be able to tie the core asset to something, you haven't explained why the coin value must go up to sustain the technology.  Why can't the technology exist with a stable infrastructure paying people out based on the transaction volume they manage to process?  

If you say, ok well USD value went down, and ero BTC rises as a result to factor that in so people don't use BTC as a de-facto arbitrage system, fine.  I get that part.  But BTC price is wholly disconnected from FOREX and driven by factors that don't quite add up really.

I mean one of the things about BTC that made the most sense to me was that when all the coins are distributed, then you get paid based on tx volume traffic.  That gets a nice amount of early adopters in and going, and a stable long term payoff with the understanding you can do the txs and make margin over the power/hardware consumable.  The problem that is present today is that once BTC maxes out, off the power consumption will be so high as to make doing further mining pointless, therefore driving value to 0.  

ETH seems to be better conceived, but make no mistake BTC drives this bus.  Once BTC goes to zero, and it will, the entire confidence in the tech will be shaken.  My bet is on the other side there will be no "coins", just blockchain tech used by banks to make their transactions more seamless.  And that's fine.
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What!? This is not happening

 
culdeus said:
When there are no more coins left to mine check into how much they project to pay out in fees to miners. Then tell me how the long term value of btc is a non zero number. 
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A lot of time before that happens.  Within the last few months I paid $20+ to send Bitcoin, much nicer now paying 20cents but my opinion is that transaction fees will increase and I'd be fine with that.

 
The network, which is basically the entire value of the system - in bitcoin's case, the ability to transact freely to anyone in the world in a permissionless system- is driven by a financial incentive.  There is no financial incentive without the coins (which are a reflection of proof of work).  

In ethereum's case, if corporations and contract-based systems must consume ether to participate in the network, the ether unit's value will be defined by the purchase and utility of those tokens.  And a lot of speculation of course.  It compensates the network for contributed resources.  

 
ren hoek said:
The network, which is basically the entire value of the system - in bitcoin's case, the ability to transact freely to anyone in the world in a permissionless system- is driven by a financial incentive.  There is no financial incentive without the coins (which are a reflection of proof of work).  

In ethereum's case, if corporations and contract-based systems must consume ether to participate in the network, the ether unit's value will be defined by the purchase and utility of those tokens.  And a lot of speculation of course.  It compensates the network for contributed resources.  
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The financial incentive is there for the people that own the network. If that is a network owned by people who create the coins (via the mining, etc.) then they receive the incentive of a transaction fee. If I use the network to transact freely with someone, what do I care if my $X transaction is 0.5 BTC or 0.0005 BTC. What does the seller care if they convert it to $X - 1% transaction fee? The "value" of the BTC is immaterial. When people value BTC in all the pro-coin discussions they seem to refer to global economies and the limited supply as if the coin values have to add up to the overall transaction economy. I don't see how that is relevant when the same BTC could be used millions of times over a period of time. You don't have to have $1 trillion in coin values to do $1 trillion in transactions over 1 year.

 
The last series of posts by @culdeus and @stbugs have done a great job spelling out exactly why I feel like Josh Baskin in that toy pitch meeting every time I listen to people try and explain why the coins themselves have value beyond just speculation. Well done gents. 

 
stbugs said:
The financial incentive is there for the people that own the network. If that is a network owned by people who create the coins (via the mining, etc.) then they receive the incentive of a transaction fee. If I use the network to transact freely with someone, what do I care if my $X transaction is 0.5 BTC or 0.0005 BTC. What does the seller care if they convert it to $X - 1% transaction fee? The "value" of the BTC is immaterial. When people value BTC in all the pro-coin discussions they seem to refer to global economies and the limited supply as if the coin values have to add up to the overall transaction economy. I don't see how that is relevant when the same BTC could be used millions of times over a period of time. You don't have to have $1 trillion in coin values to do $1 trillion in transactions over 1 year.
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The other headwind will be that banks go out of their way to pay you to transact in their ecosystem.  Credit cards and vendors give transaction rewards up to 5% in some cases to use their processing method and still come out ok.  Apple, and Samsung and others are trying to bring people into the fold for theirs.  

The most likely outcome if the plan is to get off fiat is for each of these transactors to have their own blockchain network, without coins, doing their front end rather than outsourcing this to banknet and similar firms.  It isn't clear in the end whether the savings would be passed onto consumers or the merchants.  OR in a different world the merchants themselves set up their own blockchain to transact the payments themselves.  

In all of these situations I can find no reason for an actual coin to exist, be used for anyone, for really anything that would impact a person's day to day life.  The current system as it is, while expensive, is working nearly flawlessly and instantly without consuming gobs of power.    

 
RUSF18 said:
The last series of posts by @culdeus and @stbugs have done a great job spelling out exactly why I feel like Josh Baskin in that toy pitch meeting every time I listen to people try and explain why the coins themselves have value beyond just speculation. Well done gents. 
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That's a great reference and a great movie.

Just looking at the credit card processors now. There are some differences, like making money on float, but imagine if the credit card companies just deducted your bank account immediately, there's no real difference. You could say there is a "coin" somewhere in their network, but because of the speed the buyer buys the coin with USD/coin is exchanged for USD for seller minus the transaction fee.

 
culdeus said:
The other headwind will be that banks go out of their way to pay you to transact in their ecosystem.  Credit cards and vendors give transaction rewards up to 5% in some cases to use their processing method and still come out ok.  Apple, and Samsung and others are trying to bring people into the fold for theirs.  

The most likely outcome if the plan is to get off fiat is for each of these transactors to have their own blockchain network, without coins, doing their front end rather than outsourcing this to banknet and similar firms.  It isn't clear in the end whether the savings would be passed onto consumers or the merchants.  OR in a different world the merchants themselves set up their own blockchain to transact the payments themselves.  

In all of these situations I can find no reason for an actual coin to exist, be used for anyone, for really anything that would impact a person's day to day life.  The current system as it is, while expensive, is working nearly flawlessly and instantly without consuming gobs of power.    
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Yep, the cost of entry for companies like Google, Visa, Amazon, etc. is minimal. They can partner with an existing blockchain or build one themselves. I would think the goal of any blockchain network would be low fees and instant transactions. If you can't do that, why would people use it and if you can, how does the coin have any long term investment value. The network could give out coins to miners who do the work for them (or in Google/Amazon's case they do the work), but there is no sustainable way to give out a $20,000 coin on credit card type transactions. It has to be a fee that is a small percentage of the transaction.

 
RUSF18 said:
The last series of posts by @culdeus and @stbugs have done a great job spelling out exactly why I feel like Josh Baskin in that toy pitch meeting every time I listen to people try and explain why the coins themselves have value beyond just speculation. Well done gents. 
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VERGE (XVG) IS NOW BEING ACCEPTED ON PORNHUB!!!

WOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!

 
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culdeus said:
The other headwind will be that banks go out of their way to pay you to transact in their ecosystem.  Credit cards and vendors give transaction rewards up to 5% in some cases to use their processing method and still come out ok.  Apple, and Samsung and others are trying to bring people into the fold for theirs.  

The most likely outcome if the plan is to get off fiat is for each of these transactors to have their own blockchain network, without coins, doing their front end rather than outsourcing this to banknet and similar firms.  It isn't clear in the end whether the savings would be passed onto consumers or the merchants.  OR in a different world the merchants themselves set up their own blockchain to transact the payments themselves.  

In all of these situations I can find no reason for an actual coin to exist, be used for anyone, for really anything that would impact a person's day to day life.  The current system as it is, while expensive, is working nearly flawlessly and instantly without consuming gobs of power.    
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https://www.coindesk.com/barclays-talking-clients-opening-crypto-trading-desk/

 
Jake22 said:
Being in FBG I knew I shouldve added what I initially wanted to say along with my comment...

If you believe in Justin Sun and the great team he has assembled( if you actually read about them it is a very good team he has behind him), then don't sell. If you are a nonbeliever in the tech and or Sun and his backing then by all means sell. It's as simple as that.

I do believe Sun has enough contacts with the Chinese government ( which can be hard to deal with) and the team he has assembled that he can accomplish what he wants with Tron. 

He served on a panel to put regulations in on ICOs, so that's where my "contacts" comment comes from. I'm sure he has made relationships with people on that same panel that can help him move his project forward should there be any resistance from regulators in China.

NEO for example has the same type of backing in China...

This is not advice it's my opinion,  as always DYOD.

Regular guy,  You will be selling BAT at a loss too, great move buy high sell low, good luck with that. You sold Tron when you could've had 70% more early this morning LOL...
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The Gator said:
Giddy up
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Free 2-year subscription to Barron's and MarketWatch for using Brave browser. All those old money boomers using Brave and telling their boomer friends about it.  NewsCorp is DJMG's parent company.  This is pretty big.  

Basically a leadpipe lock this gets listed on Coinbase.  

 
There a better metric than marketcap for measuring the value of these things?  Doesn't seem like a great way to tell depth and real market value.  

 
https://aws.amazon.com/blogs/aws/get-started-with-blockchain-using-the-new-aws-blockchain-templates/

Get Started with Blockchain Using the new AWS Blockchain Templates

by Jeff Barr | on 19 APR 2018 | in Amazon EC2 Container Registry*, Amazon EC2 Container Service*, Launch*, News* | Permalink |  Comments |  Share

Many of today’s discussions around blockchain technology remind me of the classic Shimmer Floor Wax skit. According to Dan Aykroyd, Shimmer is a dessert topping. Gilda Radner claims that it is a floor wax, and Chevy Chase settles the debate and reveals that it actually is both! Some of the people that I talk to see blockchains as the foundation of a new monetary system and a way to facilitate international payments. Others see blockchains as a distributed ledger and immutable data source that can be applied to logistics, supply chain, land registration, crowdfunding, and other use cases. Either way, it is clear that there are a lot of intriguing possibilities and we are working to help our customers use this technology more effectively.

We are launching AWS Blockchain Templates today. These templates will let you launch an Ethereum (either public or private) or Hyperledger Fabric (private) network in a matter of minutes and with just a few clicks. The templates create and configure all of the AWS resources needed to get you going in a robust and scalable fashion.
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Reverse the situation.

Imagine the dominant bitcoin had 32mb blocks with a fleshed out scaling plan including successful testing of GB+ blocks , support by every major crypto business, project, and service, guaranteed sub-cent fees and a more the merrier growth strategy for true global adoption.

Now imagine some upstart devs forked off and reduced block size to 1mb, heavily restricting transactional capacity to create a fluctuating fee market intended to produce long term fees in excess of $100+ driving users to a second layer system of fee taking government regulated financial intermediaries they call “hubs”.

Would this new high fee coin see any traction whatsoever?

It needs to be understood that the current BTC price is the result of incumbency, not merit. Any suggestion that the market could never come to the realisation that the Blockstream/Core redesign of bitcoin was a mistake is pure cult ideology.

BCH is gaining against BTC for very sound fundamental reasons, rational traders need to position themselves to ideally profit or at minimum protect their holdings in the event of a switch.

Remember that they share miners and unlike BCH, BTC lacks any facility to survive a significant loss of hashrate. If BCH continues its strong push toward price parity then the miners will jump ship and the BTC chain will genuinely cease to function, dropping its worth to $0.

 
ren hoek said:
Reverse the situation.

Imagine the dominant bitcoin had 32mb blocks with a fleshed out scaling plan including successful testing of GB+ blocks , support by every major crypto business, project, and service, guaranteed sub-cent fees and a more the merrier growth strategy for true global adoption.

Now imagine some upstart devs forked off and reduced block size to 1mb, heavily restricting transactional capacity to create a fluctuating fee market intended to produce long term fees in excess of $100+ driving users to a second layer system of fee taking government regulated financial intermediaries they call “hubs”.

Would this new high fee coin see any traction whatsoever?

It needs to be understood that the current BTC price is the result of incumbency, not merit. Any suggestion that the market could never come to the realisation that the Blockstream/Core redesign of bitcoin was a mistake is pure cult ideology.

BCH is gaining against BTC for very sound fundamental reasons, rational traders need to position themselves to ideally profit or at minimum protect their holdings in the event of a switch.

Remember that they share miners and unlike BCH, BTC lacks any facility to survive a significant loss of hashrate. If BCH continues its strong push toward price parity then the miners will jump ship and the BTC chain will genuinely cease to function, dropping its worth to $0.
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What do you think about Zcash?

 
Being a long time lurker/member of FBGs I thought I would revisit this thread. Yes I still have my TRX and will hold for a healthy profit someday. This is crypto, a lot of these projects will obviously take time and don’t just happen overnight. 

I do however want ‘Regular Guy’ to make a profit on his BAT. Sorry buddy didn’t mean to jump on you like that. Things get a little heated on these boards, I know, I’ve been here since FBGs started.

Being a crypto believer means we are all on the same boat and should stick together to bring this new tech to fruition. We are changing the world with brand new technology and non believers will someday believe once they see what can be done with Blockchain tech. Let’s keep moving forward and one day we will all be rewarded.

 
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Not sure why my older quote that was re-posted by ren honk didn’t show up after I just tried to quote him. Anyway, you can read it above.

 
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