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Ren's old crypto thread || we know how to buy this stuff now (1 Viewer)

JerseyToughGuys said:
Here is a really good Pod cast on “security tokens.” It’s pretty lengthy and the finance / tech / legal discussion gets pretty granular, but it’s worth a listen for anyone into 1). secure investments; 2). emerging crypto trends; and 3). securities law’s intersection with both.

the potential for fractionalizing and liquefying private equities (be it stock in a local business, real estate holdings, or a piece of fine art) is very intriguing.

some form of this is inevitable imo
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JerseyToughGuys said:
Forbes article re: “tokenize everything”
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Some of this is gaining traction. 

Raven is a hard charger right now.

Up 300% in the last month.

It will likely be the backbone of tZERO and perhaps other security token exchanges. 

Here's some background:

ELI5 Summary

 Use Cases Explained

 
link

“I’m gonna tell a story about a site and you can guess which it is, has 80 million adblocking users a month... many more non adblocking.  They are ready to try something with us, they are ready to convert those users to Brave users.”  

 
WhatDoIKnow said:
BAT. ❤️
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Glad I not only held but added to my position with BAT when things fell off earlier this year. It's by far my biggest crypto position, will be fun to see where it goes. I wrote off this investment long ago so it's all fun money at this point.

 
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Mr Anonymous said:
Glad I not only held but added to my position with BAT when things fell off earlier this year. It's by far my biggest crypto position, will be fun to see where it goes. I wrote off this investment long ago so it's all fun money at this point.
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I remember seeing BAT at .16 and thinking how criminally low that was.  That’s the lowest I’ve ever seen it (and probably ever will). I can very easily picture it at $10 within the next few years.  

 
ren hoek said:
I remember seeing BAT at .16 and thinking how criminally low that was.  That’s the lowest I’ve ever seen it (and probably ever will). I can very easily picture it at $10 within the next few years.  
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Bought some more at .147 in September.  Small potatoes, but still fun.

 
Mr Anonymous said:
Glad I not only held but added to my position with BAT when things fell off earlier this year. It's by far my biggest crypto position, will be fun to see where it goes. I wrote off this investment long ago so it's all fun money at this point.
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I did the same - nothing crazy, just a little bit here and there. I was able to add more at $.16 which helped get my overall PPS down to where I was happy with it (my first few hundred shares were a lot higher), just in case it rallied. I like that it's tied to something tangible and useful, and my investment isn't so large that I'll be in anguish if the bottom drops out.

 
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There's a big hashwar playing out on the Bitcoin Cash blockchain.  I'm guessing that's what the drop in price is about.  Basically the gist of it is that one side, the Bitcoin ABC devs, want to optimize the software and upgrade gradually.  Currently, blocks can't really function properly beyond a 22MB size, and they want to improve the software to scale for the current 32MB limit (approaching VISA scale transaction throughput; currently blocks are only being filled to 2/3MB, so much of this is purely theoretical longterm thinking).  

The other side, Bitcoin Cash SV (Satoshi's Vision), wants to increase the blocksize to 128MB and ultimately remove the cap entirely.  I'm not sure what their dev roadmap is exactly to have functioning blocks at that size, but they seem to be more inline with the miners' longterm thinking.  The thing about Bitcoin is that there's a give and take between three sometimes competing interests- the miners (who choose which chain is valid), the devs (who write software), and the users (who make the economic decision for which chain to support).  I'm not sure if Craig Wright is just merely a psychopath or also a visionary, but him, nChain, and Calvin Ayre (billionaire with tons of mining hashpower) are kind of at the forefront of this thing.  

The fork happened yesterday.  However, this fork does not have replay protection.  If you hold BCH, it's not as simple as getting free coins like the original BTC/BCH fork.  Much of it depends on where your coins were being held- some exchanges/wallets will support both, some are basically waiting for a winner to emerge before building out their platform.  Me personally, I just left my coins on my Ledger wallet and am waiting for this thing to blow over.  The lead Ledger dev, Chip, has said they're going to keep an eye on it for a couple months and make a decision once things flesh out a little bit.  I burned myself pretty hard trying to make moves before the BTC/BCH fork, I'd just as soon not fool with it anymore and let the chips fall where they may.  

Going into it I felt that Craig's threats of litigation, chain death, and emotional outbursts are way beyond the pale and not inline at all with Bitcoin, which was founded originally as a way to free people from the financial system.  I still feel that way.  But I think he's forcing an interesting hand that I've not really seen play out before.  BTC/BCH's fundamental disagreement was between developers and users, what kind of roadmap users wanted for bitcoin and Blockstream's failure to scale bitcoin to a modern, functional state.  But this is an outright war of processing power, basically a system being decided by miners.  This is billions and billions of dollars in mining infrastructure.

For its part, much of the ecosystem has sided with ABC and view the BSV camp as a hostile attack on BCH.  Wright, by being a tyrannical #######, may have singularly driven away too much of the would-be support for SV to win a fight it might have won.  But it's interesting to watch none the less.  I wouldn't write off SV.  They clearly have an intriguing vision for what bitcoin ought to be.  I consider it favorable to BCH that this is playing out on its ecosystem.  

Here's some background: 

Bitcoin Stuff - I think I figured out nChain's business model

nChain's Jimmy Nguyen on Bitcoin SV

The Economics of Bitcoin (Part 1)

And of course:

Craig Wright during the BCH Hard Fork [LIVE]

 
ren hoek said:
We'll see what it looks like in 5/10 years.  
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Price will be 0 in 5/10 years.  

There is and has not been any advancement on people using this stuff for anything but hookers and drugs or getting money out of crisis areas like China/Russia and into Dollars.  

Blockchain tech is great, but there is no need for it to have speculative value to be successful.  I think people are scrambling to prop up an infrastructure that is going to dust.  

 
culdeus said:
Price will be 0 in 5/10 years.  

There is and has not been any advancement on people using this stuff for anything but hookers and drugs or getting money out of crisis areas like China/Russia and into Dollars.  

Blockchain tech is great, but there is no need for it to have speculative value to be successful.  I think people are scrambling to prop up an infrastructure that is going to dust.  
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I agree. I always thought the technology was the most interesting part and the long term play, i.e. software companies or exchanges. IMHO, the coins are the commodity. If people are using Bitcoin to conduct business, I still think they will finish in their home currencies so whether a coin is $1 USD or $5000 USD, it won’t matter. I’m still paying $50 USD for the GI joe with the king fu grip and if the transfer is as fast as Visa, the seller got $50 USD from me.

I’ve never gotten the stored value of the transfer currency. It’d be like investing in the Visa coin between my credit card and the vendor payment. The displacement of Visa is where the value is, not the coin. I laugh at the businesses we read about that store securely bitcoins in black sites to avoid theft. Those Bitcoins are just sitting in a bank vault and never used.

 
stbugs said:
I agree. I always thought the technology was the most interesting part and the long term play, i.e. software companies or exchanges. IMHO, the coins are the commodity. If people are using Bitcoin to conduct business, I still think they will finish in their home currencies so whether a coin is $1 USD or $5000 USD, it won’t matter. I’m still paying $50 USD for the GI joe with the king fu grip and if the transfer is as fast as Visa, the seller got $50 USD from me.

I’ve never gotten the stored value of the transfer currency. It’d be like investing in the Visa coin between my credit card and the vendor payment. The displacement of Visa is where the value is, not the coin. I laugh at the businesses we read about that store securely bitcoins in black sites to avoid theft. Those Bitcoins are just sitting in a bank vault and never used.
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They really got the entire concept of what it means to be a currency wrong.  You can't have a valuation vs. another currency unless someone wants to offer interest in exchange for loaning your currency out at terms a multiple above what the governing structure is offering at auction.   

The people buying this, other than those caught up in FOMO, thought that they could re-invent gold.  The thing is we need gold for all sorts of ####.  We don't need BTC except to create memes.  

 
culdeus said:
Price will be 0 in 5/10 years.  

There is and has not been any advancement on people using this stuff for anything but hookers and drugs or getting money out of crisis areas like China/Russia and into Dollars.  

Blockchain tech is great, but there is no need for it to have speculative value to be successful.  I think people are scrambling to prop up an infrastructure that is going to dust.  
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That’s simply not true.  It’s been used to feed people in Venezuela, allowed for outlets blacklisted from the financial system to continue operating, and facilitated a global medium of exchange in a way nothing else ever could.  It has the power and wherewithal to replace banks and supply chains as we know them.  There is value in that beyond zero.  Will we see it in the future?  Who knows.  

Without the profit incentive, no one participates in the network.  You really can’t have the value of a global, permissionless blockchain if it hinges on a trusted corporate third party.  

I get that there’s an argument against scarcity with infinite forks and chain splits.  There’s also legitimate criticism of whether it’s trying to function as an investment vehicle, as a sovereign medium of exchange, or as an anarchist darknet.  But you can’t mail a chunk of gold to people living under hyperinflation. You can’t divide it or send it anywhere in the world and settle the transaction in under 10 minutes.  Frankly there’s value in the fact that other people view it as the best possible medium of exchange.  

This wave of speculation happened during the dotcom bubble too.  The overwhelming majority of these chains will fail.  But some of them will redefine how societies function.  $1-2T in 2020 

 
ren hoek said:
That’s simply not true.  It’s been used to feed people in Venezuela, allowed for outlets blacklisted from the financial system to continue operating, and facilitated a global medium of exchange in a way nothing else ever could.  It has the power and wherewithal to replace banks and supply chains as we know them.  There is value in that beyond zero.  Will we see it in the future?  Who knows.  

Without the profit incentive, no one participates in the network.  You really can’t have the value of a global, permissionless blockchain if it hinges on a trusted corporate third party.  

I get that there’s an argument against scarcity with infinite forks and chain splits.  There’s also legitimate criticism of whether it’s trying to function as an investment vehicle, as a sovereign medium of exchange, or as an anarchist darknet.  But you can’t mail a chunk of gold to people living under hyperinflation. You can’t divide it or send it anywhere in the world and settle the transaction in under 10 minutes.  Frankly there’s value in the fact that other people view it as the best possible medium of exchange.  

This wave of speculation happened during the dotcom bubble too.  The overwhelming majority of these chains will fail.  But some of them will redefine how societies function.  $1-2T in 2020 
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This is another fallacy.  You can't be comparing crypto to tech stocks in one sentence and then to gold in another.  There is no TAM for this stuff that is invented out of nowhere.  The tech bubble created TAM that didn't exist out of thin air, hence the bubble. Some of that materialized, and some didn't.  

There is no market, there is no exchange of raw goods of industry of any kind on the open market and there are no banks offering interest on a balance.  

If chains work, great, that doesn't mean they have to by definition have value.  Visa could switch to the blockchain overnight, and basically transact all their FTX in VisaCoin and never trade a dime of it on the open market.  But they don't, because even today I can make a transaction in Austria using my contactless payment and before I can put my phone back in my wallet Visa notifies me of the TX.  Are they going to tear down that infrastructure to make it 100mS faster? No.  

These coins need to prove out their intrinsic value above the mining costs.  They can't, because it doesn't exist.

 
culdeus said:
This is another fallacy.  You can't be comparing crypto to tech stocks in one sentence and then to gold in another.  There is no TAM for this stuff that is invented out of nowhere.  The tech bubble created TAM that didn't exist out of thin air, hence the bubble. Some of that materialized, and some didn't.  
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We were talking about the dotcom bubble in regard to speculative bubbles.  Technically the internet doesn't exist in any physical capacity, other than the physical wires and machines used to transfer it around.  Yet it is used to facilitate mass transfers of wealth, information, and provide infrastructure for billions of people.  

We were talking about gold because you think there is no intrinsic value in frictionless money.  Fact is, the financial system has siphoned wealth and quality of life from people for generations, and bitcoin was designed as a corrective to it.  There's not really a practical, inclusive way to transfer gold to people.  Governments can't just print bitcoins.  It has properties that only an electronic p2p cash system can.  

culdeus said:
There is no market, there is no exchange of raw goods of industry of any kind on the open market and there are no banks offering interest on a balance.  
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There are tons of markets and exchanges.  The exchange of goods for crypto is in a niche stage still, but there's a lot of stuff you could find on places like OpenBazaar, Overstock, cryptonize.it, an organization that feeds the poor, a website where you can feed chickens with crypto.... there will be more to come yet.  Soon you will be able to loan money and earn interest on digital assets on Uphold.  

culdeus said:
If chains work, great, that doesn't mean they have to by definition have value.  Visa could switch to the blockchain overnight, and basically transact all their FTX in VisaCoin and never trade a dime of it on the open market.  But they don't, because even today I can make a transaction in Austria using my contactless payment and before I can put my phone back in my wallet Visa notifies me of the TX.  Are they going to tear down that infrastructure to make it 100mS faster? No.  
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Visa can build as many blockchains as they like.  Users can use VisaCoins however they see fit.  It wouldn't change the fact that miners, devs and users will not participate in a network with no incentives, and not everyone trusts institutions like Visa to be honest gatekeepers to the financial system.

culdeus said:
These coins need to prove out their intrinsic value above the mining costs.  They can't, because it doesn't exist.
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Then go buy some $0 bitcoins and report back.  Let us know how it works out. 

The mining difficulty and cost of mining would scale down if hashpower decreased to the extent it wasn't making its 10min block times, or became that unprofitable.  The market values bitcoin around $5-6k.  Whether it has value or serves a purpose to you personally is irrelevant.  

 
There are kids asking for crytocurrency for Christmas who want nothing to do with cash or gift cards. They want it for gaming platforms if I'm not mistaken. Don't @ me on that, my knowledge of this is very limited. Just seems logical that there will be future uses.

 
Anyone else feel like the bottom is in? Looking at the ETH daily chart there’s a nice wall of volume in the last few weeks. Most volume since like October 2017. More volume than at any point of the entire down move. Feels like the bottom is in. 

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
Anyone else feel like the bottom is in? Looking at the ETH daily chart there’s a nice wall of volume in the last few weeks. Most volume since like October 2017. More volume than at any point of the entire down move. Feels like the bottom is in. 
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Nope.  Now I think we’re idling in midair off one of the greatest golden bullruns of all time, and that markets (and crypto by extension) are in for some real rough times.  It will come back eventually, but not until some doom and gloom is reckoned with.  

 
ren hoek said:
Nope.  Now I think we’re idling in midair off one of the greatest golden bullruns of all time, and that markets (and crypto by extension) are in for some real rough times.  It will come back eventually, but not until some doom and gloom is reckoned with.  
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That’s certainly a possibility. I was waiting for leg 2 of the crash in 2010. I’m still waiting but I think the market is heavily manipulated so I’ve long given up on timing it. 

Back to crypto. If we didn’t bottom yet, I think we’re darn close. Seems like a bottom to me. If ETH dips below $100 again I will load up. 

 
Rhythmdoctor said:
That’s certainly a possibility. I was waiting for leg 2 of the crash in 2010. I’m still waiting but I think the market is heavily manipulated so I’ve long given up on timing it. 

Back to crypto. If we didn’t bottom yet, I think we’re darn close. Seems like a bottom to me. If ETH dips below $100 again I will load up. 
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I hope you're right.  I'm talking about a major economic depression.  Crypto would be one of the first things to collapse in my opinion.  I don't think it's evolved enough beyond a speculative/toy usecase to withstand that when markets are down.  

Part of the problem for me with this last bubble phase is that it's killed off the utility aspect that drove investment in the first place.  People just want to hodl it.  It won't go to zero or whatever, but I'm concerned that it can ever succeed at one thing without sacrificing some of the other.  

 
ren hoek said:
I hope you're right.  I'm talking about a major economic depression.  Crypto would be one of the first things to collapse in my opinion.  I don't think it's evolved enough beyond a speculative/toy usecase to withstand that when markets are down.  

Part of the problem for me with this last bubble phase is that it's killed off the utility aspect that drove investment in the first place.  People just want to hodl it.  It won't go to zero or whatever, but I'm concerned that it can ever succeed at one thing without sacrificing some of the other.  
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 I totally agree that an economic depression/deflation is eminent. I have been thinking that since the 2008 crash. I hope we’re wrong. 

 
ren hoek said:
https://www.reddit.com/r/btc/comments/aevkaw/the_creator_of_the_now_famous_hodl_meme_says_that/?st=JQT7ZKFX&sh=ea3fc766
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100% agree. Also, what the hell is going on there? He can’t shoot pool, there’s a marlin on the wall, what looks to be a droopy cardboard shelving thing in the corner and he’s playing guitar?

That said, he’s saying the same thing I said. The “coin” was meant to spend and it’s been years and it’s only traded in exchanges or stored in some cold storage nuclear blast withstanding location. I personally never thought the middle layer of the transaction, the coin, was an investment. How many currencies are investments? I don’t store USDs thinking that my George Washington will grow into a Lincoln. To do that I need to invest in something that can grow like real estate or stock or a business. The cash is something I can use to transact and if you let it sit there, it usually loses value due to inflation. 

 
Walking Boot said:
There's no way this is the full story. If he's really dead, he killed himself to escape a ponzi scheme he created. 50/50 he's still alive and was trying to get out from under the collapse. No way it's just "oh he was the only one with the password and he died oops".
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Agreed. You know someone else (like dead him) knows the password and has already spent it. Love the he died of complications while starting an orphanage or whatever it was. 

 
NotSmart said:
1st Bank, JPM, launches its own Cryptocurrency (sort of)
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Lol. The Ripple CEO criticizing a coin that us meant to do the same thing as his. I love his comparison of AOL afte Netscape 2.0, especially since Netscape isn’t around anymore. Feels like a bitter man with no traction trying to pan a competitor. It’s not really hypocritical for the JPM to say that bitcoin is a fraud and still use the technology but not offer their coin as an investment. Sounds like JPM wants to actually use the technology.

I’ve always maintained that the coin as an investment makes no sense to me and that I felt like the only winners would be software companies and networks. Bitcoin at $5 or $5k is irrelevant if seller and buyer deal in USD and just use the coin and network as a pass through.

 
stbugs said:
I’ve always maintained that the coin as an investment makes no sense to me and that I felt like the only winners would be software companies and networks. Bitcoin at $5 or $5k is irrelevant if seller and buyer deal in USD and just use the coin and network as a pass through.
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This is probably a dumb question from someone who knows very little about cryptocurrencies, but with most of these investments aren't you buying the underlying currency? So their value will definitely matter to someone who owns a stack of them, right?

And also how do the software companies and networks monetize cryptocurrency transactions?

Trying to better understand all of this.

 
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