Revenue Per Individual In Market (with chart!) (1 Viewer)

[GroveDiesel]

I've tried Googling for it but couldn't find anything. I'm trying to put together a list of revenue generated per fan in each team's market based on the non-shared portion of revenue. Does anyone know where I could find those numbers? I have a feeling that they're pretty closely guarded and may be impossible to find but thought I'd take a stab at it anyway. If nothing else a list of total revenue by team should give me the same answer since the national revenues are split evenly.

 

[GroveDiesel]

Chart

Ok, so I found a list of each team's revenue at Forbes. I used the list of media market sizes from Nielson.

I backed out the TV contract revenue to create somewhat of a more accurate picture although it doesn't change the chart really since the national revenues are all split evenly. I also recognize that there's more to the national pot than just tv revenue but that is the bulk of it.

The one area that my numbers are thrown off a bit are when the Nielson markets and the NFL markets either overlap or Nielson breaks it up a bit more than the NFL market. For instance, Nielsen combines S.F. and Oakland and I'm not sure that it's fair to use that total number for both the Niners and the Raiders. Of course I also left out LA and Sacramento which could pump money into those teams. The list also does not include some of the NC/SC areas in the Panthers market size and there are several larger Florida Nielson markets which may work into the numbers for some of those Florida teams. Green Bay wasn't even on the list and I just used Milwaukee. Not sure if that's accurate or fair, but that's what I used. And last but not least, I used the full NY market for both the Giants and the Jets. If you feel that's unfair I can see that and you could basically just double each of their revenue per fan numbers.

 

[GroveDiesel]

One last addendum even though I'm pretty much talking to myself, when you can see that teams like Jacksonville and Buffalo are bringing in more money per individual in their market, I think it's unfair to keep saying that their owners are lazy or aren't doing enough. From the numbers it would appear that they're tapping their markets better than any other team out there.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

One last addendum even though I'm pretty much talking to myself, when you can see that teams like Jacksonville and Buffalo are bringing in more money per individual in their market, I think it's unfair to keep saying that their owners are lazy or aren't doing enough.  From the numbers it would appear that they're tapping their markets better than any other team out there.

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We had the same basic idea! I added mine to the original thread and had about the same conclusions. Alot of the small market owners are doing better than the mid-market owners.

 

[Screwball]

One thing to think about is the Neilson market isnt always, or ever, a true reflection of the actual fan base. The Vikings for example are near the bottom of your list, but Minneapolis/St Paul is only one part of the Vikings "market". Its the Minnesota Vikings, not the Minneapolis Vikings. Also South Dakota and North Dakota add to that market as well. :dunno:

 

[GroveDiesel]

One thing to think about is the Neilson market isnt always, or ever, a true reflection of the actual fan base.  The Vikings for example are near the bottom of your list, but Minneapolis/St Paul is only one part of the Vikings "market".  Its the Minnesota Vikings, not the Minneapolis Vikings.  Also South Dakota and North Dakota add to that market as well.  :dunno:

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I agree. It's tough to actually figure out exactly what the numbers would be. I recognize that I'll be off in most areas, but it gives a general idea anyway. And just to point out, but increasing the size of the Vikings' market would only drop them further down the list because the number of fans would increase but the revenue number would stay the same.

 

[BlueOnion]

Ok, so I found a list of each team's revenue at Forbes. 

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Is that Gross Revenue or Net Revenue?

 

[GroveDiesel]

Ok, so I found a list of each team's revenue at Forbes. 

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Is that Gross Revenue or Net Revenue?
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Net of stadium revenues used for debt payments. I don't know what exactly it includes, but since they have gate receipts as a separate category, I have to imagine that those figures include general local revenues. If anyone has different/better data I'd be happy to run the numbers again.

 

[BlueOnion]

Ok, so I found a list of each team's revenue at Forbes. 

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Is that Gross Revenue or Net Revenue?
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Net of stadium revenues used for debt payments. I don't know what exactly it includes, but since they have gate receipts as a separate category, I have to imagine that those figures include general local revenues. If anyone has different/better data I'd be happy to run the numbers again.
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You will run into the some of the same issues I ran into when I did this for MLB about 8 months ago, so I know what questions to ask. The numbers you are looking for are usually private and certainly more so in MLB where revenue sharing is a forbidden word. Unfortunately, the 32 books in the NFL are going to have to be looked at (league wise) with far more scrutiny with the new CBA being expanded to include local revenues. For example, one of the most hotly contested debates among the owners with the new CBA is how to categorize stadium debt, other revenue stream debt, City\State tax-financing of stadiums and G-3 stadium debt.

One of the reasons Jacksonville and Buffalo score so well in your report is their stadiums are paid off. So when you look at their Net Revenue, it is not that far off from their Gross Revenue. Now when you look at the Redskins' number (about 250ish million I recall), their net revenue is most likely not even close to the Redskins' Gross Revenue; considering the debt Daniel Snyder carries to finance his expenditures in expanding his local revenue, his Gross Revenue is probably upwards of 500 or 600 million.

This is where the discrepency comes in between the Buffalo model and the Washington model. Snyder probably pulls in about 600 million (guess) a year in Gross Revenue. However, he likes to take that money and reinvest it into another revenue stream, thus driving down his annual net revenue but dramatically increasing his earning power.

 

[Screwball]

One thing to think about is the Neilson market isnt always, or ever, a true reflection of the actual fan base.  The Vikings for example are near the bottom of your list, but Minneapolis/St Paul is only one part of the Vikings "market".   Its the Minnesota Vikings, not the Minneapolis Vikings.  Also South Dakota and North Dakota add to that market as well.   :dunno:

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I agree. It's tough to actually figure out exactly what the numbers would be. I recognize that I'll be off in most areas, but it gives a general idea anyway. And just to point out, but increasing the size of the Vikings' market would only drop them further down the list because the number of fans would increase but the revenue number would stay the same.
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Yeah, their current financial situation is not good at all. Hopefully we are close to resolving that. Minnesota Momentum

 

[BlueOnion]

One thing to think about is the Neilson market isnt always, or ever, a true reflection of the actual fan base.  The Vikings for example are near the bottom of your list, but Minneapolis/St Paul is only one part of the Vikings "market".   Its the Minnesota Vikings, not the Minneapolis Vikings.  Also South Dakota and North Dakota add to that market as well.   :dunno:

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I agree. It's tough to actually figure out exactly what the numbers would be. I recognize that I'll be off in most areas, but it gives a general idea anyway. And just to point out, but increasing the size of the Vikings' market would only drop them further down the list because the number of fans would increase but the revenue number would stay the same.
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Yeah, their current financial situation is not good at all. Hopefully we are close to resolving that. Minnesota Momentum
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The Minnesota Financial situation is another ball of wax even more confussing than other financial situations.

 

[redman]

One last addendum even though I'm pretty much talking to myself, when you can see that teams like Jacksonville and Buffalo are bringing in more money per individual in their market, I think it's unfair to keep saying that their owners are lazy or aren't doing enough.  From the numbers it would appear that they're tapping their markets better than any other team out there.

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Of course, these are teams with either no, or a minimum of, competition within their local sporting market.I did find it interesting that the teams with the cheapest fans apparently from that list were the two New York teams.

 

[Joseph]

I don't think this is a whole lot different than what would be expected. In general, the small market teams should have a higher revenue/fan than the big market teams.

Where the anomalies are found is the small market teams near the low end of the list.

What would it look like if you put a 1-32 rank on each by market size, and a 1-32 rank based on market size. It would seem that the larger the difference between these two rankings, the worse the team is doing compared to what would be expected.

Just at first glance I'd imagine that washington is far and away the most efficient team (by that measure) and that arizona and minnesota would be near the bottom.

 

[ConstruxBoy]

I don't think this is a whole lot different than what would be expected.  In general, the small market teams should have a higher revenue/fan than the big market teams.

Where the anomalies are found is the small market teams near the low end of the list.

What would it look like if you put a 1-32 rank on each by market size, and a 1-32 rank based on market size.  It would seem that the larger the difference between these two rankings, the worse the team is doing compared to what would be expected. 

Just at first glance I'd imagine that washington is far and away the most efficient team (by that measure) and that arizona and minnesota would be near the bottom.

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Look at the other thread about the Jags Owner for my numbers on that.

 

[Joseph]

I don't think this is a whole lot different than what would be expected.  In general, the small market teams should have a higher revenue/fan than the big market teams.

Where the anomalies are found is the small market teams near the low end of the list.

What would it look like if you put a 1-32 rank on each by market size, and a 1-32 rank based on market size.  It would seem that the larger the difference between these two rankings, the worse the team is doing compared to what would be expected. 

Just at first glance I'd imagine that washington is far and away the most efficient team (by that measure) and that arizona and minnesota would be near the bottom.

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Look at the other thread about the Jags Owner for my numbers on that.
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