Richard Dent got jobbed... (1 Viewer)

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

I guess Dent is now the Art Monk of DEs...

The knock on Dent was he didn't play the run. I've got news for the voters. Fred Dean NEVER played the run, he was a 'DESIGNATED PASS RUSH SPECIALIST' - and it's a #######' joke he got in there before The Colonel.

Dent: 137 sacks and several INTs: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DentRi00.htm

Dean: 82 sacks and ONE INT: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DeanFr00.htm

 

[Despyzer]

I would have to agree (and I'm a Chargers fan). Dean wasn't even the best DE on that team - "Big Hands" Johnson was. Once Dean went to SF, he only played 3rd and long downs. No way should this guy be in the Hall of Fame.

 

[Rodeojones]

Never heard of Dean

 

[anakin]

Come on..he had that great show Hunter with a hot chick and he was on Cheers a couple of times.

 

[by_the_sea_wannabe]

I guess Dent is now the Art Monk of DEs...

Don't diminish Dent like that.

 

[Despyzer]

I guess Dent is now the Art Monk of DEs...

Don't diminish Dent like that.

I like Dent, but comparing him to Monk is hardly a put-down. Dent was never the best at his position at any point of his career, whereas Monk not only was the standard (arguably along with Largent and Lofton) before Rice came along, but before Monk retired he was considered one of the best of all time... and then the receiving stats went nuts and Monk kind of got lost in the shuffle.

 

[E-A-G-L-E-S]

Come on..he had that great show Hunter with a hot chick and he was on Cheers a couple of times.

not sure if you are serious or not, but the actor was fred dryer of the rams

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

Come on..he had that great show Hunter with a hot chick and he was on Cheers a couple of times.

That's Fred Dryer, which further proves my point. Most people don't even know who Fred Dean is. "Wasn't he from Watergate?"

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

Here's some stat comparisons from Dan Pompei's article in today's Chicago Tribune. I have no problem with Tippett making it, but Dean over Dent is just plain wrong:

Dent had 137½ career sacks compared to 100 for Tippett, the former Patriots linebacker. Dean, the former Chargers and 49ers defensive end, played most of his career before sacks became an official statistic, but football researcher John Turney estimates Dean had 93 career sacks.

Dent had eight seasons in which he had 10 sacks. Dean had an estimated five. Tippett had three.

Dent had 21 career takeaways. Tippett had 18. Dean had 14.

Dent had 37 career forced fumbles. Tippett had 14. Dean had eight, though figures for forced fumbles are unavailable for the first four years of his career.

Dent had 58 passes defended. Tippett had 17. Dean had 13, not including the first four years of his career.

Dent also was an outstanding run defender. Tippett was a fine run defender as well, but Dean was a 230-pound situational player for most of his career.

 

[Routilla]

Dent > Gary "Big Hands" Johnson > Dean

 

[Tau837]

Here's some stat comparisons from Dan Pompei's article in today's Chicago Tribune. I have no problem with Tippett making it, but Dean over Dent is just plain wrongent had 137½ career sacks compared to 100 for Tippett, the former Patriots linebacker. Dean, the former Chargers and 49ers defensive end, played most of his career before sacks became an official statistic, but football researcher John Turney estimates Dean had 93 career sacks.Dent had eight seasons in which he had 10 sacks. Dean had an estimated five. Tippett had three.Dent had 21 career takeaways. Tippett had 18. Dean had 14.Dent had 37 career forced fumbles. Tippett had 14. Dean had eight, though figures for forced fumbles are unavailable for the first four years of his career.Dent had 58 passes defended. Tippett had 17. Dean had 13, not including the first four years of his career.Dent also was an outstanding run defender. Tippett was a fine run defender as well, but Dean was a 230-pound situational player for most of his career.

Good info here.

 

[Tau837]

I guess Dent is now the Art Monk of DEs...

Don't diminish Dent like that.

I like Dent, but comparing him to Monk is hardly a put-down. Dent was never the best at his position at any point of his career, whereas Monk not only was the standard (arguably along with Largent and Lofton) before Rice came along, but before Monk retired he was considered one of the best of all time... and then the receiving stats went nuts and Monk kind of got lost in the shuffle.

If Dent was never the best at his position, it was only due to playing at the same time as Bruce Smith and Reggie White... hardly an indictment of Dent.And at Monk being the WR "standard" before Rice... please explain how he only was named All NFL 1 time then. Other All NFL selections at WR during his career during Monk's career (1980-1995):Jerry Rice - 9James Lofton - 4Sterling Sharpe - 3Steve Largent - 2Roy Green - 2Mike Quick - 2Art Monk - 1Charlie Joiner - 1John Jefferson - 1Alfred Jenkins - 1Wes Chandler - 1Dwight Clark - 1Louis Lipps - 1Al Toon - 1Gary Clark - 1Andre Rison - 1Henry Ellard - 1Michael Irvin - 1Haywood Jeffires - 1Cris Carter - 1Herman Moore - 1

 

[mcd]

I'm not a huge Fred Dean fan, but I would assume he got in because he basically changed the way the game was played. When Walsh traded for him he created the situational pass rusher position, it was unique at the time. Ron Wolf was quoted as saying "“One thing about Fred Dean: he changed the whole game of pro football, and no one wants to give him credit for that.” Dean was the beginning of the defensive situational match-ups that prevails in todays NFL.

On another note, a 230 pound Defensive End in the mid 70's, was not quite the run liability that a 230 pound DE in 2007 is.

 

[26554]

When comparing Dent's sack total to guys like Dean and Tippett, you do have to take into account the career length for each.

Dean- appeared in 141 games, started 82

Dent- appeared in 203 games, started 150

Tippett- appeared in 151 games, started 139

The biggest negatives against Dent (other than the ''took too many plays off'' argument) are:

-He wasn't named to an all-decade team

-He was named to only four pro bowls and was never consensus All-NFL

-Many say that Dan Hampton and Mike Singletary were both more important to the success of the '46' D than Dent was

Now, all that being said, his sack total is very impressive. And with Dean getting in, I think it's a lot tougher to justify keeping Dent and Thomas and perhaps a few other "pass rush specialists" out of the HOF. Like I said in the main HOF thread, I think Dean got in first because he had the least amount of 'modern era' eligibilty left (fair or not).

 

[flapgreen]

It's becoming the equivalent to the Grammys

 

[jetpack]

When comparing Dent's sack total to guys like Dean and Tippett, you do have to take into account the career length for each.Dean- appeared in 141 games, started 82Dent- appeared in 203 games, started 150Tippett- appeared in 151 games, started 139The biggest negatives against Dent (other than the ''took too many plays off'' argument) are:-He wasn't named to an all-decade team-He was named to only four pro bowls and was never consensus All-NFL-Many say that Dan Hampton and Mike Singletary were both more important to the success of the '46' D than Dent wasNow, all that being said, his sack total is very impressive. And with Dean getting in, I think it's a lot tougher to justify keeping Dent and Thomas and perhaps a few other "pass rush specialists" out of the HOF. Like I said in the main HOF thread, I think Dean got in first because he had the least amount of 'modern era' eligibilty left (fair or not).

Great points.For comparison to Dent - LC Greenwood also lined up on a legendary Defense filled with HOFers, was named a 6x All Pro (3x concensus), 6x Pro Bowl, and named to the NFL 1970s All-Decade Team and he's looking in.

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

Dent's time will come.... It's a shame OT Jimbo Covert's career was shortened by a back injury, as I believe ONE lineman that led the way for Payton should get in also. Jay Hilgenberg doesn't stand a chance despite making so many Pro Bowls.

Pretty big indictment on the Bears for winning only one Super Bowl with the likes of Dan Hampton, Mike Singletary, Wilber Marshall, Richard Dent - not to mention Willie Gault, Walter Payton and an offensive line that played a boatload of games together in several consecutive years. Ah... who needs a durable above average quarterback.

 

[KoolKat]

I guess Dent is now the Art Monk of DEs...

The knock on Dent was he didn't play the run. I've got news for the voters. Fred Dean NEVER played the run, he was a 'DESIGNATED PASS RUSH SPECIALIST' - and it's a #######' joke he got in there before The Colonel.

Dent: 137 sacks and several INTs: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DentRi00.htm

Dean: 82 sacks and ONE INT: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/D/DeanFr00.htm

 

[Despyzer]

If Dent was never the best at his position, it was only due to playing at the same time as Bruce Smith, Neal Smith, Howie Long, LeeRoy Selmon, Chris Doleman, and Reggie White... hardly an indictment of Dent.

Fixed

 

[Despyzer]

And at Monk being the WR "standard" before Rice... please explain how he only was named All NFL 1 time then.

Take a look at whose name appears at that position for the NFL's 1980's All-Decade team. Also, I am old enough to have been involved in discussions of who was the best WR while Monk was playing. There was a window when Largent got older and before Rice established himself that Monk's name was the very first to come up.

 

[Tau837]

When comparing Dent's sack total to guys like Dean and Tippett, you do have to take into account the career length for each.Dean- appeared in 141 games, started 82Dent- appeared in 203 games, started 150Tippett- appeared in 151 games, started 139The biggest negatives against Dent (other than the ''took too many plays off'' argument) are:-He wasn't named to an all-decade team-He was named to only four pro bowls and was never consensus All-NFL-Many say that Dan Hampton and Mike Singletary were both more important to the success of the '46' D than Dent wasNow, all that being said, his sack total is very impressive. And with Dean getting in, I think it's a lot tougher to justify keeping Dent and Thomas and perhaps a few other "pass rush specialists" out of the HOF. Like I said in the main HOF thread, I think Dean got in first because he had the least amount of 'modern era' eligibilty left (fair or not).

I agree that Singletary and Hampton were more important than Dent to the Bears defense. But there is certainly room for multiple HOFers from one of the best defenses in history.On the games played, while it certainly gave Dent an edge in terms of opportunity, it is also a credit to his durability, so I wouldn't change my view of any of them in this comparison... for me, one thing offsets the other.On the All Decade team, it is somewhat surprising that Dent didn't make the All 1980s Team. The four DEs who made it are Reggie White, Howie Long, Lee Roy Selmon, and Bruce Smith.In the 1980s:White played from 1985 to 1989, starting 72 games and recording 81.0 sacks, 0 interceptions, and 6 fumble recoveries. He made 4 Pro Bowls and 4 All Pro teams during those 5 seasons and also won a DPOY. Nobrainer choice.Long played from 1981 to 1989, starting 96 games and recording 60.0 sacks (not including 1981, since they weren't official that year), 1 interception, and 9 fumble recoveries. He made 6 Pro Bowls and 5 All Pro teams during those 9 seasons. No argument here.Smith played from 1985 to 1989, starting 68 games and recording 57.5 sacks, 0 interceptions, and 6 fumble recoveries. He made 3 Pro Bowls and 4 All Pro teams during those 5 seasons.Selmon played from 1980 to 1984, starting 67 games and recording 23.0 sacks (from 1982 to 1984... they weren't officially recorded before 1982), 0 interceptions, and 6 fumble recoveries. He made 5 Pro Bowls and 4 All Pro teams during those 5 seasons.Dent played from 1983 to 1989, starting 82 games and recording 81.0 sacks, 3 interceptions, and 8 fumble recoveries. He made 2 Pro Bowls and 3 All Pro teams during those 7 seasons and also won a Super Bowl MVP.Honestly, I'm not sure why Selmon and Smith made the 1980s team over Dent. I realize numbers don't tell the whole story. In Smith's case, he was clearly on a path to greatness, but I'm a bit surprised that Dent's play didn't give him the nod, with 7 years to 5, and particularly with the Super Bowl MVP. Smith would end up being DPOY in 1990, so perhaps he was already showing a dominance not reflected in the numbers... In Selmon's case, he was DPOY in 1979, and I suspect his selection was more based on reputation and career achievement. Note: I'm not saying I think Dent was better than either Smith or Selmon, just that his performance in the 1980s was arguably better.Anyway, the only reason Dent didn't make it is because he played in the same decade as 4 other HOFers, and was 5th best among them. I suppose I could see an argument that 5th best isn't good enough for the HOF... to which I'd have to ask, where does Dean stack up against this group?

 

[Tau837]

If Dent was never the best at his position, it was only due to playing at the same time as Bruce Smith, Neal Smith, Howie Long, LeeRoy Selmon, Chris Doleman, and Reggie White... hardly an indictment of Dent.

Fixed

Are you suggesting Neal Smith and/or Chris Doleman were better than Dent?

 

[Despyzer]

If Dent was never the best at his position, it was only due to playing at the same time as Bruce Smith, Neal Smith, Howie Long, LeeRoy Selmon, Chris Doleman, and Reggie White... hardly an indictment of Dent.

Fixed

Are you suggesting Neal Smith and/or Chris Doleman were better than Dent?

I'm starting to lose respect for you.

 

[Tau837]

And at Monk being the WR "standard" before Rice... please explain how he only was named All NFL 1 time then.

Take a look at whose name appears at that position for the NFL's 1980's All-Decade team. Also, I am old enough to have been involved in discussions of who was the best WR while Monk was playing. There was a window when Largent got older and before Rice established himself that Monk's name was the very first to come up.

I'm aware of the names: Rice, Lofton, Largent, Monk. I'm also aware that the All Decade teams are timing dependent. Monk played all 10 years of the decade, which gives him a potential advantage over others who didn't. And he played for a team that was in 3 Super Bowls that decade, which I'm sure helped his case.

 

[Tau837]

If Dent was never the best at his position, it was only due to playing at the same time as Bruce Smith, Neal Smith, Howie Long, LeeRoy Selmon, Chris Doleman, and Reggie White... hardly an indictment of Dent.

Fixed

Are you suggesting Neal Smith and/or Chris Doleman were better than Dent?

I'm starting to lose respect for you.

Sorry to hear it. I went and looked at Smith and Doleman, and I have to say you may be right about Doleman... it's very close IMO. But to me, Dent is still clearly above Smith.And you listed Selmon above, but only the last two years of his career overlapped with Dent's career. So IMO he doesn't fit in the statement I was making about Dent's career. I didn't list Long, and should have.

 

[26554]

If Dent was never the best at his position, it was only due to playing at the same time as Bruce Smith, Neal Smith, Howie Long, LeeRoy Selmon, Chris Doleman, and Reggie White... hardly an indictment of Dent.

Fixed

Are you suggesting Neal Smith and/or Chris Doleman were better than Dent?

I'd probably give Dent the edge over Smith (though Smith was a very good pass rusher in his own right), but Doleman had 151 sacks over 15 seasons, so I don't think that one's as much of a stretch.

 

[Tau837]

If Dent was never the best at his position, it was only due to playing at the same time as Bruce Smith, Neal Smith, Howie Long, LeeRoy Selmon, Chris Doleman, and Reggie White... hardly an indictment of Dent.

Fixed

Are you suggesting Neal Smith and/or Chris Doleman were better than Dent?

I'd probably give Dent the edge over Smith (though Smith was a very good pass rusher in his own right), but Doleman had 151 sacks over 15 seasons, so I don't think that one's as much of a stretch.

Actually, I went back and looked at Doleman's accomplishments, and I have to say maybe he is better than Dent, after all. Doleman had more sacks, tackles, forced fumbles, and fumble recoveries than Dent, though in some cases it was close, and Doleman did start 63 more games and play 29 more games. Of course, that is a credit to Doleman as well. Dent did have more than twice as many passes defensed and the same number of interceptions in fewer games, so it would seem their roles were a bit different (or he was just better at dropping into coverage and/or deflecting balls). Doleman also made one more All Pro team.It's close. In my mind, and perhaps in others' minds, Dent may get more credit for being a dominant player on one of the best defenses of all time.I still don't think Neil Smith is as good as Dent.

 

[GRIDIRON ASSASSIN]

Doleman and Neil Smith were forces that can't be ignored either.