Right vs. Wrong... (1 Viewer)

[Fat Nick]

The past few day's events with Ray Rice and the PSU sanction lifting got me thinking...I was just reading an article about how Rutgers is removing all images of Ray Rice from their stadium, etc. It gave me a brief flashback to PSU's Paterno cleanse of a few years ago...

Clearly recent events have proven that you can basically trump a lifetime of good with one bad decision/action/inaction. Rice seemed to be a relatively well-behaved guy. He was basically Rutger's most widely-known NFL player. I'm sure folks from Rutgers were big fans up until recently. With this one video of his heinous act, he erased every ounce of hard work and dedication he ever put forth on the football field, every good deed he ever did, etc. I have no clue if this abuse was an isolated incident or not, but regardless of if it was or wasn't, he'll now be viewed right up there with the worst NFL characters of all time.

Paterno clearly did a lot of great things, both for PSU, State College, and education in general. He was a role model and a respected figure nation-wide. Then, after the allegations of his inaction in the Sandusky scandal, he was penned an enabler. Someone who was almost as horrible as Sandusky himself.

I'm not trying to start a debate on the right/wrong/indifference towards what Rice or Paterno did. I'm not trying to prove guilt or innocence...but what gets me is how quickly someone can lose a lifetime of work and accomplishment over a severe mis-doing (or accusatino of which if you choose to go that route).

Why are we so predisposed to villifying, but not to the opposite? I don't feel like we'd suddenly hold a convicted serial killer in a saintly light if he jumped in front of a bus to save 3 toddlers. He'd still be a killer. I think he'd get a "good job, but...you're still a killer" view. Why don't people like Rice and Paterno get a "Man...that was really f-ed up...but you're still a good guy?"

I guess I just find it interesting how it's really a 1-way street.

 

[Good Posting Judge]

Looking at the banner ad for FBG's fanduel thing...is Dodds' username, um...OK?

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Hitler always sent his friends thoughtful cards on their birthdays.

 

[Jutz]

I think it has to do with people being self centered and jealous. People see someone that is doing really well and having a lot of success. They look at their own lives and feel 'lesser' compared to those that are highly successful. When they get a chance to drag successful people down below their level... it makes them feel good about themselves. It's a very small minded, but common way of thinking.

 

[Godsbrother]

The past few day's events with Ray Rice and the PSU sanction lifting got me thinking...I was just reading an article about how Rutgers is removing all images of Ray Rice from their stadium, etc. It gave me a brief flashback to PSU's Paterno cleanse of a few years ago...

Clearly recent events have proven that you can basically trump a lifetime of good with one bad decision/action/inaction. Rice seemed to be a relatively well-behaved guy. He was basically Rutger's most widely-known NFL player. I'm sure folks from Rutgers were big fans up until recently. With this one video of his heinous act, he erased every ounce of hard work and dedication he ever put forth on the football field, every good deed he ever did, etc. I have no clue if this abuse was an isolated incident or not, but regardless of if it was or wasn't, he'll now be viewed right up there with the worst NFL characters of all time.

Paterno clearly did a lot of great things, both for PSU, State College, and education in general. He was a role model and a respected figure nation-wide. Then, after the allegations of his inaction in the Sandusky scandal, he was penned an enabler. Someone who was almost as horrible as Sandusky himself.

I'm not trying to start a debate on the right/wrong/indifference towards what Rice or Paterno did. I'm not trying to prove guilt or innocence...but what gets me is how quickly someone can lose a lifetime of work and accomplishment over a severe mis-doing (or accusatino of which if you choose to go that route).

Why are we so predisposed to villifying, but not to the opposite? I don't feel like we'd suddenly hold a convicted serial killer in a saintly light if he jumped in front of a bus to save 3 toddlers. He'd still be a killer. I think he'd get a "good job, but...you're still a killer" view. Why don't people like Rice and Paterno get a "Man...that was really f-ed up...but you're still a good guy?"

I guess I just find it interesting how it's really a 1-way street.

IN the case of Rice I might agree with you, assuming that was the one and only time he hit a woman. Paterno's a different case, he knew what was going on and did next to nothing to stop the abuse of children.

 

[Henry Ford]

The past few day's events with Ray Rice and the PSU sanction lifting got me thinking...I was just reading an article about how Rutgers is removing all images of Ray Rice from their stadium, etc. It gave me a brief flashback to PSU's Paterno cleanse of a few years ago...

Clearly recent events have proven that you can basically trump a lifetime of good with one bad decision/action/inaction. Rice seemed to be a relatively well-behaved guy. He was basically Rutger's most widely-known NFL player. I'm sure folks from Rutgers were big fans up until recently. With this one video of his heinous act, he erased every ounce of hard work and dedication he ever put forth on the football field, every good deed he ever did, etc. I have no clue if this abuse was an isolated incident or not, but regardless of if it was or wasn't, he'll now be viewed right up there with the worst NFL characters of all time.

Paterno clearly did a lot of great things, both for PSU, State College, and education in general. He was a role model and a respected figure nation-wide. Then, after the allegations of his inaction in the Sandusky scandal, he was penned an enabler. Someone who was almost as horrible as Sandusky himself.

I'm not trying to start a debate on the right/wrong/indifference towards what Rice or Paterno did. I'm not trying to prove guilt or innocence...but what gets me is how quickly someone can lose a lifetime of work and accomplishment over a severe mis-doing (or accusatino of which if you choose to go that route).

Why are we so predisposed to villifying, but not to the opposite? I don't feel like we'd suddenly hold a convicted serial killer in a saintly light if he jumped in front of a bus to save 3 toddlers. He'd still be a killer. I think he'd get a "good job, but...you're still a killer" view. Why don't people like Rice and Paterno get a "Man...that was really f-ed up...but you're still a good guy?"

I guess I just find it interesting how it's really a 1-way street.

The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones.

 

[Fat Nick]

The past few day's events with Ray Rice and the PSU sanction lifting got me thinking...I was just reading an article about how Rutgers is removing all images of Ray Rice from their stadium, etc. It gave me a brief flashback to PSU's Paterno cleanse of a few years ago...

Clearly recent events have proven that you can basically trump a lifetime of good with one bad decision/action/inaction. Rice seemed to be a relatively well-behaved guy. He was basically Rutger's most widely-known NFL player. I'm sure folks from Rutgers were big fans up until recently. With this one video of his heinous act, he erased every ounce of hard work and dedication he ever put forth on the football field, every good deed he ever did, etc. I have no clue if this abuse was an isolated incident or not, but regardless of if it was or wasn't, he'll now be viewed right up there with the worst NFL characters of all time.

Paterno clearly did a lot of great things, both for PSU, State College, and education in general. He was a role model and a respected figure nation-wide. Then, after the allegations of his inaction in the Sandusky scandal, he was penned an enabler. Someone who was almost as horrible as Sandusky himself.

I'm not trying to start a debate on the right/wrong/indifference towards what Rice or Paterno did. I'm not trying to prove guilt or innocence...but what gets me is how quickly someone can lose a lifetime of work and accomplishment over a severe mis-doing (or accusatino of which if you choose to go that route).

Why are we so predisposed to villifying, but not to the opposite? I don't feel like we'd suddenly hold a convicted serial killer in a saintly light if he jumped in front of a bus to save 3 toddlers. He'd still be a killer. I think he'd get a "good job, but...you're still a killer" view. Why don't people like Rice and Paterno get a "Man...that was really f-ed up...but you're still a good guy?"

I guess I just find it interesting how it's really a 1-way street.

IN the case of Rice I might agree with you, assuming that was the one and only time he hit a woman. Paterno's a different case, he knew what was going on and did next to nothing to stop the abuse of children.

Like I said...I really don't want to turn this into a right/wrong guilty/innocent thread. There are many who would argue that this might not have been Rice's first time...just like there are many who might argue that Paterno didn't know what was going on. I'd like this to not spiral into those holes...

I'm just using those as examples based on outcome.

 

[StrikeS2k]

Seems like Michael Vick has largely been given a second chance after his work with animal groups and seeming to have come to understand why what he did was wrong. So it's possible. But Ray Rice's video is so brutal. If there is forgiveness it's not going to happen overnight. And he has not shown any signs of being reformed.

 

[BigJohn]

Not only erases what they did in the past, but condemns them from leading much of a productive life going forward. It's really sad in all regards and for all involved.

I mean, what his wife said this morning should have some merit. Why is it not possible for their relationship to continue on in a normal fashion? What if she truly does forgive him for what he did? Why is it our obligation to destroy his life, and it turn, destroy hers as well?

Who really wins in this scenario?

 

[Fat Nick]

The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones.

Awesome quote that sort of sums the whole thing up, but why is that the way we view the world?

 

[IvanKaramazov]

One of my jobs in my department is being the guy who deals with incidents of student plagiarism, cheating, and academic dishonesty. I am 100% convinced that when I encounter a "first time offender," a more accurate description is "many-time offender, first time caught." There is no way that this was the first time Ray Rice slugged a woman. None. He did laid her out and drug her around with a level of nonchalance that you can only achieve through experience.

 

[joffer]

The internet outrage patrol is a fickle beast

 

[Fat Nick]

Seems like Michael Vick has largely been given a second chance after his work with animal groups and seeming to have come to understand why what he did was wrong. So it's possible. But Ray Rice's video is so brutal. If there is forgiveness it's not going to happen overnight. And he has not shown any signs of being reformed.

Good example...You're right. A lot of people have forgotten about Vick. It almost seems like if you serve jail time, it helps to wipe the slate clean maybe? VA Tech still has Vick's number in Lane Stadium...

 

[Godsbrother]

The past few day's events with Ray Rice and the PSU sanction lifting got me thinking...I was just reading an article about how Rutgers is removing all images of Ray Rice from their stadium, etc. It gave me a brief flashback to PSU's Paterno cleanse of a few years ago...

Clearly recent events have proven that you can basically trump a lifetime of good with one bad decision/action/inaction. Rice seemed to be a relatively well-behaved guy. He was basically Rutger's most widely-known NFL player. I'm sure folks from Rutgers were big fans up until recently. With this one video of his heinous act, he erased every ounce of hard work and dedication he ever put forth on the football field, every good deed he ever did, etc. I have no clue if this abuse was an isolated incident or not, but regardless of if it was or wasn't, he'll now be viewed right up there with the worst NFL characters of all time.

Paterno clearly did a lot of great things, both for PSU, State College, and education in general. He was a role model and a respected figure nation-wide. Then, after the allegations of his inaction in the Sandusky scandal, he was penned an enabler. Someone who was almost as horrible as Sandusky himself.

I'm not trying to start a debate on the right/wrong/indifference towards what Rice or Paterno did. I'm not trying to prove guilt or innocence...but what gets me is how quickly someone can lose a lifetime of work and accomplishment over a severe mis-doing (or accusatino of which if you choose to go that route).

Why are we so predisposed to villifying, but not to the opposite? I don't feel like we'd suddenly hold a convicted serial killer in a saintly light if he jumped in front of a bus to save 3 toddlers. He'd still be a killer. I think he'd get a "good job, but...you're still a killer" view. Why don't people like Rice and Paterno get a "Man...that was really f-ed up...but you're still a good guy?"

I guess I just find it interesting how it's really a 1-way street.

IN the case of Rice I might agree with you, assuming that was the one and only time he hit a woman. Paterno's a different case, he knew what was going on and did next to nothing to stop the abuse of children.

Like I said...I really don't want to turn this into a right/wrong guilty/innocent thread. There are many who would argue that this might not have been Rice's first time...just like there are many who might argue that Paterno didn't know what was going on. I'd like this to not spiral into those holes...

I'm just using those as examples based on outcome.

Well you asked why don't people like Rice and Paterno get a "Man...that was really f-ed up...but you're still a good guy?"

In some cases the f-ed up thing they did (or didn't do) means they cannot still be a good guy.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

I think it's way too early to assume that Ray Rice's image can't be rehabilitated. If anything, the NFL is facing more overt criticism today than Rice. People, quite correctly, thought it was absurd that Ray Rice was only going to miss two games. Some of us have always thought that was absurd. I imagine that there are more of us now that the tape has been shown, but I wouldn't assume that means that if Ray Rice says all the right things in July of 2015 that there won't be people who think that he's entitled to a second chance. As with Michael Vick, there will be people who think otherwise too.

 

[Henry Ford]

The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones.

Awesome quote that sort of sums the whole thing up, but why is that the way we view the world?

Because negative emotions/reactions are stored in a different hemisphere and require significantly more processing and consideration than good emotions/reactions. It's the same reason people tend to form negative stereotypes significantly more often than positive ones. Link.

 

[Fat Nick]

The past few day's events with Ray Rice and the PSU sanction lifting got me thinking...I was just reading an article about how Rutgers is removing all images of Ray Rice from their stadium, etc. It gave me a brief flashback to PSU's Paterno cleanse of a few years ago...

Clearly recent events have proven that you can basically trump a lifetime of good with one bad decision/action/inaction. Rice seemed to be a relatively well-behaved guy. He was basically Rutger's most widely-known NFL player. I'm sure folks from Rutgers were big fans up until recently. With this one video of his heinous act, he erased every ounce of hard work and dedication he ever put forth on the football field, every good deed he ever did, etc. I have no clue if this abuse was an isolated incident or not, but regardless of if it was or wasn't, he'll now be viewed right up there with the worst NFL characters of all time.

Paterno clearly did a lot of great things, both for PSU, State College, and education in general. He was a role model and a respected figure nation-wide. Then, after the allegations of his inaction in the Sandusky scandal, he was penned an enabler. Someone who was almost as horrible as Sandusky himself.

I'm not trying to start a debate on the right/wrong/indifference towards what Rice or Paterno did. I'm not trying to prove guilt or innocence...but what gets me is how quickly someone can lose a lifetime of work and accomplishment over a severe mis-doing (or accusatino of which if you choose to go that route).

Why are we so predisposed to villifying, but not to the opposite? I don't feel like we'd suddenly hold a convicted serial killer in a saintly light if he jumped in front of a bus to save 3 toddlers. He'd still be a killer. I think he'd get a "good job, but...you're still a killer" view. Why don't people like Rice and Paterno get a "Man...that was really f-ed up...but you're still a good guy?"

I guess I just find it interesting how it's really a 1-way street.

IN the case of Rice I might agree with you, assuming that was the one and only time he hit a woman. Paterno's a different case, he knew what was going on and did next to nothing to stop the abuse of children.

Like I said...I really don't want to turn this into a right/wrong guilty/innocent thread. There are many who would argue that this might not have been Rice's first time...just like there are many who might argue that Paterno didn't know what was going on. I'd like this to not spiral into those holes...

I'm just using those as examples based on outcome.

Well you asked why don't people like Rice and Paterno get a "Man...that was really f-ed up...but you're still a good guy?"

In some cases the f-ed up thing they did (or didn't do) means they cannot still be a good guy.

True...I guess the emphasis was on "like." I could've been more clear, but I wasn't sure how else to make an example. At a deeper level, why is it that your bad action defines you, not your overall legacy? (I guess in Paterno's case it's b/c he died shortly after)

 

[Fat Nick]

I think it's way too early to assume that Ray Rice's image can't be rehabilitated. If anything, the NFL is facing more overt criticism today than Rice. People, quite correctly, thought it was absurd that Ray Rice was only going to miss two games. Some of us have always thought that was absurd. I imagine that there are more of us now that the tape has been shown, but I wouldn't assume that means that if Ray Rice says all the right things in July of 2015 that there won't be people who think that he's entitled to a second chance. As with Michael Vick, there will be people who think otherwise too.

Interesting...so what's the thought on if Rice was hit with an 8 game suspension? If he was hit with an 8 game suspension, and this new footage was released just as it was now, would he still be cut and suspended indefinately or did that 2 game outrage help lead to the bigger end?

 

[Fat Nick]

The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones.

Awesome quote that sort of sums the whole thing up, but why is that the way we view the world?

Because negative emotions/reactions are stored in a different hemisphere and require significantly more processing and consideration than good emotions/reactions. It's the same reason people tend to form negative stereotypes significantly more often than positive ones. Link.

This is really long and some of it is too psych for me...but interesting read so far that I'll continue tonight. Thanks.

 

[IvanKaramazov]

I think it's way too early to assume that Ray Rice's image can't be rehabilitated. If anything, the NFL is facing more overt criticism today than Rice. People, quite correctly, thought it was absurd that Ray Rice was only going to miss two games. Some of us have always thought that was absurd. I imagine that there are more of us now that the tape has been shown, but I wouldn't assume that means that if Ray Rice says all the right things in July of 2015 that there won't be people who think that he's entitled to a second chance. As with Michael Vick, there will be people who think otherwise too.

Interesting...so what's the thought on if Rice was hit with an 8 game suspension? If he was hit with an 8 game suspension, and this new footage was released just as it was now, would he still be cut and suspended indefinately or did that 2 game outrage help lead to the bigger end?

I think we also have to factor in that Rice seemed completely tone-deaf to this whole thing. The guy sat there while his wife took partial responsibility for instigating her own beating. It's not too hard to see why that would rub people the wrong way.

I do think that RHE is right in that Rice could conceivably rehabilitate himself by showing some real contrition, seeking counseling, etc.

 

[TheIronSheik]

I think it's way too early to assume that Ray Rice's image can't be rehabilitated. If anything, the NFL is facing more overt criticism today than Rice. People, quite correctly, thought it was absurd that Ray Rice was only going to miss two games. Some of us have always thought that was absurd. I imagine that there are more of us now that the tape has been shown, but I wouldn't assume that means that if Ray Rice says all the right things in July of 2015 that there won't be people who think that he's entitled to a second chance. As with Michael Vick, there will be people who think otherwise too.

So not punishing someone correctly for punching a woman is worse than punching a woman?

 

[Guest]

You can build a thousand bridges, but if you suck one...

 

[MikeMan]

Lots of guys images are rehabilitated. Ray Lewis. Michael Irvin was a crackhead with numerous sexual assault allegations but now he's just a ho-hum mainstream announcer and nobody cares.

I think it's the nature of the crime as well. Aaron Hernandez having possibly murdered three people has a better chance of a publicity comeback than does any caught pedophile or even, w Paterno, 'not investigating allegations enough.'

Also of course, the pendulum swings far and outrage is high at first, then over time the crime eventually fits. There is no doubt in my mind that Paterno's statue is eventually re-unveiled. He wasn't the monster that actually did the crime.

Ray Rice and his wife could get through this and he can be repaired if he handles it perfectly over time.

 

[AAABatteries]

Two things related to his life being "ruined" and others are to blame for it (as some have claimed):

1. I don't see how his life is ruined. He can't play football for now or maybe forever. You know what, neither can I. My life is fine. He made a choice that is preventing him from being a football player. It's also putting him in the spotlight and he's catching heat for it now. Being an NFL player is a privilege - as it working in most places. I'm sure if he wants to go earn a living right now digging ditches that someone will give him that chance.

2. Even if I ignore #1 and assume his life is ruined - how exactly is that anyone's fault but his?

 

[pats3in4]

The evil that men do lives after them. The good is oft interred with their bones.

Awesome quote that sort of sums the whole thing up, but why is that the way we view the world?

Because negative emotions/reactions are stored in a different hemisphere and require significantly more processing and consideration than good emotions/reactions. It's the same reason people tend to form negative stereotypes significantly more often than positive ones. Link.

This is really long and some of it is too psych for me...but interesting read so far that I'll continue tonight. Thanks.

Negative emotions tend to stick with us more than positive ones. If you've ever experienced how the lows of a loss are more intense than the highs of a win, you probably can understand this (as a Pats fan, I've been blessed to have the opportunity to feel these and yes, 2007 and 2011 felt worse than 2001, 2003 and 2004 felt good, at least the initial reaction post-game).

 

[Fat Nick]

Two things related to his life being "ruined" and others are to blame for it (as some have claimed):

1. I don't see how his life is ruined. He can't play football for now or maybe forever. You know what, neither can I. My life is fine. He made a choice that is preventing him from being a football player. It's also putting him in the spotlight and he's catching heat for it now. Being an NFL player is a privilege - as it working in most places. I'm sure if he wants to go earn a living right now digging ditches that someone will give him that chance.

2. Even if I ignore #1 and assume his life is ruined - how exactly is that anyone's fault but his?

You didn't make your living playing football up to this point. Football might be a bad example, because if he saved even a little $, RR could never work another day in his life and be fine...but for us folks with "average jobs," if you did something bad outside of work, completely unrelated to your job, and it cost you your job, you'd be pretty bummed.

I don't know what you do for a living, but let's say you are a doctor, and you hit your wife at a casino, and every medical practice basically black-balled you. Hitting your wife makes you a bad person, but does it make you a bad doctor?

I agree that it's nobody's fault but his own. Don't get me wrong...I just find it interesting that it leads to Rutgers scrubbing the place of his image when none of this had anything to do with that. I guess it's association. It's just an interesting phenomenon.

 

[Fat Nick]

Negative emotions tend to stick with us more than positive ones. If you've ever experienced how the lows of a loss are more intense than the highs of a win, you probably can understand this (as a Pats fan, I've been blessed to have the opportunity to feel these and yes, 2007 and 2011 felt worse than 2001, 2003 and 2004 felt good, at least the initial reaction post-game).

Lol @ Pats fans feeling bad about football. You're talking to a Skins fan here. You want to talk about feeling bad...try most of the last two and a half decades.

But seriously, j/k. I get what you're saying. I guess it's akin to why I don't gamble. I feel worse losing $50 than I do good winning $100.

 

[Ramsay Hunt Experience]

Two things related to his life being "ruined" and others are to blame for it (as some have claimed):

1. I don't see how his life is ruined. He can't play football for now or maybe forever. You know what, neither can I. My life is fine. He made a choice that is preventing him from being a football player. It's also putting him in the spotlight and he's catching heat for it now. Being an NFL player is a privilege - as it working in most places. I'm sure if he wants to go earn a living right now digging ditches that someone will give him that chance.

2. Even if I ignore #1 and assume his life is ruined - how exactly is that anyone's fault but his?

You didn't make your living playing football up to this point. Football might be a bad example, because if he saved even a little $, RR could never work another day in his life and be fine...but for us folks with "average jobs," if you did something bad outside of work, completely unrelated to your job, and it cost you your job, you'd be pretty bummed.

I don't know what you do for a living, but let's say you are a doctor, and you hit your wife at a casino, and every medical practice basically black-balled you. Hitting your wife makes you a bad person, but does it make you a bad doctor?

I agree that it's nobody's fault but his own. Don't get me wrong...I just find it interesting that it leads to Rutgers scrubbing the place of his image when none of this had anything to do with that. I guess it's association. It's just an interesting phenomenon.

Yes, felonies can have long-lasting negative consequences on your life. Decisions have consequences. And the universe is under no obligation to make the consequences consistent. Three people may decide to drive home from a bar drunk. The first might make it home without incident. The second might get a DUI and lose his license and his job. The third might kill a family a three and be convicted of manslaughter.

 

[CBusAlex]

Probably because "not beating your wife 99% of the time" is not seen as some heroic behavior that makes up for the other 1%, but as the baseline standard for being a decent human being for which no special credit is deserved.