Fantasy Football - Footballguys Forums
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
Robert Kraft (yes, THAT Robert Kraft) charged with soliciting prostitution (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter IvanKaramazov
- Start date
bigmarc27
Footballguy
Cool, do you have other threads here where this has been hashed out before?
I can’t imagine anyone being a proponent for child rape, seems like we all could have chatted through this years ago before Bob’s tug job.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Hi. Good to see you again. I know there’s no link because they’re from journals in my office, but the Chicago and SF studies (and the NIJ overview) I talked about in the one post you appear to have skipped are for all female sex workers. If you’d like, I’ll try to send you the citations later today.
The age issue is important because it blows a hole the size of a turkey pot pie in your view of consent in the industry and why women get into prostitution. But more than that, no one has to ask your permission to discuss topics tangential to the topic of a thread - related to the discussion topic in the news. If you don’t like what I post, ignore me. Or keep bringing it up. Be a Chatty Cathy about it. I don’t care if you don’t want me to talk about it. It makes no difference to me at all.
(HULK)
(Smash)
If you haven't read the affidavit against Hua Zhang and Lei Wang yet, I suggest you do. It's on scribd, and this article has it embedded for an easy read:
https://heavy.com/news/2019/02/hua-zhang-lei-wang/
I want to highlight a few things.
On Wednesday, Nov 14th when the Health Department inspected, working in the spa were Lei Wang (DOB: 05/20/73), Hua Cao (DOB: 02/08/72), and Shen Mingbi (DOB: 07/19/60). So, for those who don't feel like doing math, they were aged 45, 46, and 58.
Road Stops (1/10/19):
Subject A admitted to getting a HJ from Hua Cao (46).
Subject C admitted to getting a HJ from Hua Cao (46).
Subjects B and D did not identify who gave them a HJ, but the affidavit doesn't say that they were not able too, in fact it only lists times where the officer asked to ID the provider and the client was able to do so.
Video Surveillance:
(1/18/2019)
Male 1: HJ from unidentified Asian female
Male 2: HJ and some touching from unidentified Asian female, likely the same on from Male 1 as the clothing and hair are listed as identical.
Male 3: HJ from unidentified Asian female, dressed differently than the one from Males 1 and 2. Hua Zhang (DOB: 12/13/60, age 58) identified as one of the women in the spa.
Male 4: Received and gave oral sex with Shen Mingbi (58). Lei Wang (45) also identified as in the spa.
Male 5: HJ from Shen Mingbi (58) and unidentified Asian female, possibly the same who saw Male 3 as they were described in the same clothes.
1/18/2019 has a maximum of 2 unidentified females and a 45 year old and two 58 year olds working.
(1/19/2019)
Male 6: HJ from Shen Mingbi (58). Lei Wang (45) identified in the spa.
Male 7: HJ from Shen Mingbi (58).
Male 8: This was Kraft based upon time stamps. Got a HJ from both Mingbi (58) and Wang (45).
Male 9: HJ from unidentified Asian female.
Male 10: Kissing and a HJ from Mingbi (58).
Male 11: HJ from unidentified Asian female, unclear if it is the same or different one from Male 9.
1/20/2019 has a maximum of 2 unidentified females, and a 45 year old and 58 year old working the majority of the clients.
(1/20/2019)
Male 12: HJ from unidentified Asian female.
Male 13: This was Kraft based upon time stamps. Got a BJ from Wang (45).
Male 14: This guy had what looks like a prostate exam from Wang (45) then the lights went out and they couldn't tell what happened next.
Male 15: HJ from Hua Zhang (58).
Male 16: BJ from unidentified Asian female (dressed differently from the one w/ Male 12).
Male 17: HJ from the same unidentified Asian female from Male 16, however he convinced her to do it nude.
1/20/2019 has a maximum of 2 unidentified females, a 45 year old and a 58 year old.
(1/21/2019)
Male 18: Prostate exam and HJ from unidentified Asian female. Lei Wang (45) identified in the spa.
Male 19: HJ and lights going out again with Lei Wang (45).
Male 20: HJ, BJ, touching with Shen Mingbi (58).
Male 21: HJ from unidentified Asian female dressed differently than the one Male 18 saw.
Male 22: Prostate exam and HJ from an Asian female they didn't describe beyond her ethnicity.
Male 23: Prostate exam then lights out from Lei Wang (45).
1/21/2019 has maybe 3 unidentified females, but probably 2, and again a 45 and 58 year old.
(1/22/2019)
Male 24: HJ from unidentified Asian female. They don't describe how she is dressed either, they've gotten lazy with writing this affidavit IMO
Male 25: HJ from unidentified and undescribed Asian female.
Male 26: HJ and butt grabbing with Shen Mingbi (58).
Hua Zhang is the owner of Orchids of Asia Day Spa. She is 58, and she gave male 15 a handy.
Lei Wang is listed as registered agent for the business and has the title of "VP" in it's articles of incorporation. She is 45 and saw at least 5 of the 26 males recorded.
Both are charged with prostitution and with deriving support from prostitution. Neither are charged with sex trafficking, enslaving anyone, etc. There appear to be no children working there, I think it is reasonable to assume that if the unidentified Asian females were significantly younger than the rest of the workers, that would've been described at some point in the surveillance log and probably resulted in further charges against Zhang and Wang.
We do know Hua Cao saw 2 of the 4 guys stopped at the side of the road. She is 46.
We do know that Shen Mingbi saw at least 8 of the 26 males recorded. She is 58.
I believe it is reasonable to assume that the unidentified Asian females are going to be between age 40 and 60.
Given all of this, where is the trafficking? No one is charged with trafficking. No one is charged with anything tied to anyone underage (unlike the sting in Flordia in late 2018 where such charges did happen).
I understand the police have said things. Women forced to live there (zero evidence of this in the affidavit), sex trafficking (zero evidence again). But just because someone says something, that doesn't make it true. Is there suddenly an emergency and crisis at our country's southern border just because someone said there is? No. That's not how reality works.
As of right now, I have zero cause to believe that Kraft was a client of sex traffickers. Even if they were, he was spending time with one of the ladies supposedly in charge of this operation and her 58 year old friend. I don't see how one could reasonably expect Kraft to know that they were sex traffickers, especially when a several month long covert investigation into this operation yielded zero evidence of sex trafficking and zero charges.
I find it terrible that the Jupiter PD has framed their prostitution sting as such. I find it equally terrible that the majority of the media has chosen to make sensational headlines instead of bothering to just simply read a document and accurately describe the information provided.
Unless there is some big unknown piece here, this is nothing but regular prostitution.
https://heavy.com/news/2019/02/hua-zhang-lei-wang/
I want to highlight a few things.
On Wednesday, Nov 14th when the Health Department inspected, working in the spa were Lei Wang (DOB: 05/20/73), Hua Cao (DOB: 02/08/72), and Shen Mingbi (DOB: 07/19/60). So, for those who don't feel like doing math, they were aged 45, 46, and 58.
Road Stops (1/10/19):
Subject A admitted to getting a HJ from Hua Cao (46).
Subject C admitted to getting a HJ from Hua Cao (46).
Subjects B and D did not identify who gave them a HJ, but the affidavit doesn't say that they were not able too, in fact it only lists times where the officer asked to ID the provider and the client was able to do so.
Video Surveillance:
(1/18/2019)
Male 1: HJ from unidentified Asian female
Male 2: HJ and some touching from unidentified Asian female, likely the same on from Male 1 as the clothing and hair are listed as identical.
Male 3: HJ from unidentified Asian female, dressed differently than the one from Males 1 and 2. Hua Zhang (DOB: 12/13/60, age 58) identified as one of the women in the spa.
Male 4: Received and gave oral sex with Shen Mingbi (58). Lei Wang (45) also identified as in the spa.
Male 5: HJ from Shen Mingbi (58) and unidentified Asian female, possibly the same who saw Male 3 as they were described in the same clothes.
1/18/2019 has a maximum of 2 unidentified females and a 45 year old and two 58 year olds working.
(1/19/2019)
Male 6: HJ from Shen Mingbi (58). Lei Wang (45) identified in the spa.
Male 7: HJ from Shen Mingbi (58).
Male 8: This was Kraft based upon time stamps. Got a HJ from both Mingbi (58) and Wang (45).
Male 9: HJ from unidentified Asian female.
Male 10: Kissing and a HJ from Mingbi (58).
Male 11: HJ from unidentified Asian female, unclear if it is the same or different one from Male 9.
1/20/2019 has a maximum of 2 unidentified females, and a 45 year old and 58 year old working the majority of the clients.
(1/20/2019)
Male 12: HJ from unidentified Asian female.
Male 13: This was Kraft based upon time stamps. Got a BJ from Wang (45).
Male 14: This guy had what looks like a prostate exam from Wang (45) then the lights went out and they couldn't tell what happened next.
Male 15: HJ from Hua Zhang (58).
Male 16: BJ from unidentified Asian female (dressed differently from the one w/ Male 12).
Male 17: HJ from the same unidentified Asian female from Male 16, however he convinced her to do it nude.
1/20/2019 has a maximum of 2 unidentified females, a 45 year old and a 58 year old.
(1/21/2019)
Male 18: Prostate exam and HJ from unidentified Asian female. Lei Wang (45) identified in the spa.
Male 19: HJ and lights going out again with Lei Wang (45).
Male 20: HJ, BJ, touching with Shen Mingbi (58).
Male 21: HJ from unidentified Asian female dressed differently than the one Male 18 saw.
Male 22: Prostate exam and HJ from an Asian female they didn't describe beyond her ethnicity.
Male 23: Prostate exam then lights out from Lei Wang (45).
1/21/2019 has maybe 3 unidentified females, but probably 2, and again a 45 and 58 year old.
(1/22/2019)
Male 24: HJ from unidentified Asian female. They don't describe how she is dressed either, they've gotten lazy with writing this affidavit IMO
Male 25: HJ from unidentified and undescribed Asian female.
Male 26: HJ and butt grabbing with Shen Mingbi (58).
Hua Zhang is the owner of Orchids of Asia Day Spa. She is 58, and she gave male 15 a handy.
Lei Wang is listed as registered agent for the business and has the title of "VP" in it's articles of incorporation. She is 45 and saw at least 5 of the 26 males recorded.
Both are charged with prostitution and with deriving support from prostitution. Neither are charged with sex trafficking, enslaving anyone, etc. There appear to be no children working there, I think it is reasonable to assume that if the unidentified Asian females were significantly younger than the rest of the workers, that would've been described at some point in the surveillance log and probably resulted in further charges against Zhang and Wang.
We do know Hua Cao saw 2 of the 4 guys stopped at the side of the road. She is 46.
We do know that Shen Mingbi saw at least 8 of the 26 males recorded. She is 58.
I believe it is reasonable to assume that the unidentified Asian females are going to be between age 40 and 60.
Given all of this, where is the trafficking? No one is charged with trafficking. No one is charged with anything tied to anyone underage (unlike the sting in Flordia in late 2018 where such charges did happen).
I understand the police have said things. Women forced to live there (zero evidence of this in the affidavit), sex trafficking (zero evidence again). But just because someone says something, that doesn't make it true. Is there suddenly an emergency and crisis at our country's southern border just because someone said there is? No. That's not how reality works.
As of right now, I have zero cause to believe that Kraft was a client of sex traffickers. Even if they were, he was spending time with one of the ladies supposedly in charge of this operation and her 58 year old friend. I don't see how one could reasonably expect Kraft to know that they were sex traffickers, especially when a several month long covert investigation into this operation yielded zero evidence of sex trafficking and zero charges.
I find it terrible that the Jupiter PD has framed their prostitution sting as such. I find it equally terrible that the majority of the media has chosen to make sensational headlines instead of bothering to just simply read a document and accurately describe the information provided.
Unless there is some big unknown piece here, this is nothing but regular prostitution.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Oh, you don’t think so? Stop by a thread or two about how lucky male high school students are to be raped by their female teachers. I’m really popular in there.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
(HULK)
(Smash)
If a 25 year old woman just decided to become a prostitute because she didn't like her low paying job as a fry cook, are you okay with that?
Henry Ford
Footballguy
It’s going to depend on more factors than that. But if we had a heavily regulated system of prostitution in this country I certainly have no moral issue with her decision to receive money in exchange for sex work.
Last edited by a moderator:
Do you agree that many ADULT women turn to prostitution due to drugs/substance abuse?
(HULK)
(Smash)
That's debatable, and also not addressing my point.
THIS IS PROBABLY NOT SEX TRAFFICKING.
Exploitation? Maybe, depends on how you define it. Any labor could be called exploitation if we're using business definitions. Frankly, I'd rather not go down that rabbit hole. I'd rather approach this from the direction of, what is best for these women? How, when, why they got to where they got isn't as important as what we can do today to make their life better and safer.
My instincts tell me decriminalization would improve their lives. But, to be fair, that's just my instinct. It is not my firmly held and thoroughly researched belief. I haven't given this topic the time and thought it truly deserves. I sense you think differently and that's cool. Tell me about what you think would make these women's lives better? Strong laws? Harsher penalties? John focused penalties? Legalization and regulation? Decriminalization? There are a lot ways our society can alter how we are dealing with the current situation. I don't like the current status quo, my instinct tells me it is sub-optimal. Maybe yours does too? Rather than dwell on minutia like mode vs mean, how about we figure out how best to handle this. What works best. Clearly you have an opinion on that, and that is something I'd like to discuss with an open mind.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
(HULK)
(Smash)
See, you're already starting to answer my question about what to do about it before I finished typing it out.
So, you think heavily regulated legalization is the path forward? I'm not sure it is, but again, my mind isn't settled on this yet either.
simey
Footballguy
You must have missed this thread on human trafficking from 2016, and there are other threads from the past that discuss it as well. It has been a topic in the news for years.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I’ll try this again.
IF WE LEGALIZED AND HEAVILY REGULATED PROSTITUTION I BELIEVE IT WOULD IMPROVE THE SEX TRADE AND THE LIVES OF THE WORKERS IN IT SUBSTANTIALLY.
In the meantime I believe we should be prosecuting the Johns and the pimps over the victims of exploitation.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
bigmarc27
Footballguy
(HULK)
(Smash)
The author is so much more effective at communicating than I am. But represented my views on that "statistic" perfectly.
Like I mentioned earlier, I'd rather approach this from the "what to do" angle than the "how did they get there" angle, because that's where I'm still trying to learn more.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
People have things going on in their lives. Their parents are sick and old, their kids need to get to baseball practice, their bosses are on their ###es asking about the Gary file, whatever. Unless you’re involved in a topic, most people don’t really want to delve into it unless they have a holy moment. The news can do that.
When it’s an important topic - and this one is - best not to berate them for caring now. In my opinion.
rockaction
Footballguy
I think I gathered that heavily regulated yet legal prostitution was your position, but it wasn't really stated overtly. I sort of had to piece it together, so I can see the confusion.
But yes, it was implied -- or I inferred from what you said -- that this was your policy prescription for the problems associated with sex work.
I'm less sanguine about all policy options on the table with respect to the issue we're discussing (sex slavery and/or human trafficking for sex). It seems like there will always be people that seek illegality in their sexual exploits no matter what, and I also think that there will always be an underground human trafficking trade so long as the age of majority is the age of consent. In other words, I don't think that legalized and regulated prostitution will quash the sexual exploitation of minors.
It pains me to type that.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I don’t think it will quash it, but I think it will heavily affect it. And create a network of people on the edge of that community who have legitimate lives and businesses to protect and can contact the authorities when they hear something.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
Is this an argument imploring action now, lambasting people for not acting sooner, or sort of mocking people’s umbrage? I guess it’s the third? Serious question. God bless Henry, seriously, challenging the local order can be life consuming and actually potentially dangerous. I certainly don’t blame anyone for living their lives but let’s be thankful for those at the tip of the spear. Why did the Sheriff act here and not 20 years ago? I don’t know.
Last edited by a moderator:
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Because he received reports of undocumented immigrants being human trafficked at those spas by city inspectors.
(HULK)
(Smash)
Hey look, common ground! Well, common-ish.
Help me out, why do you think regulation is key vs full decriminalization? For example, we don't regulate sex between adults that do not exchange money. Is it just for the tax revenues? Or are you thinking more along the lines of something like OSHA, ensuring safe environments for the workers?
Like I said, my opinion on a better paradigm isn't fully formed, and I'd like to hear people's thoughts as they will inform my own.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
It’s interesting to think IMO what attention this would get if Kraft and some of the big names weren’t involved. Tellya this much though. Try the Secretary of State listings and see who owns the spas and parlors in your area, feel free to drop a dime any time.
Last edited by a moderator:
jvdesigns2002
Footballguy
I completely agree that anybody being forced into the sex trade is absolutey wrong and needs to be eliminated. Nobody should be in the sex trade against their wills--and anybody trafficking or soliciting underage people for sex should be prosecuted to the fullest.
Aside from those caveats I personally believe that prostitution should be legalized if it's between two consenting adults. If two adults can consent to have sex for free--what is the big deal if they decide to consent to do it for compensation? I live and work in a demographic where people blantantly look to enter relationships where they effectively exchange their companionship and intimacy for a more lucrative lifestyle. It's called gold digging and it's very prevalent.
If the women that Kraft hooked up with are of age and were not there against their wills-- I personally have zero problem with it. However--if they are underage or were forced to be there against their wills--thats a completely different scenario.
Aside from those caveats I personally believe that prostitution should be legalized if it's between two consenting adults. If two adults can consent to have sex for free--what is the big deal if they decide to consent to do it for compensation? I live and work in a demographic where people blantantly look to enter relationships where they effectively exchange their companionship and intimacy for a more lucrative lifestyle. It's called gold digging and it's very prevalent.
If the women that Kraft hooked up with are of age and were not there against their wills-- I personally have zero problem with it. However--if they are underage or were forced to be there against their wills--thats a completely different scenario.
SaintsInDome2006
Footballguy
rockaction
Footballguy
I don't totally disagree. I think there will be an increase in reporting these cases if the women coming forward aren't afraid of deportation or retribution and/or the other people reporting these cases (should it be a third party) aren't afraid of arrest or having their own businesses affected. I think legalized and regulated prostitution will affect human trafficking, maybe just not as much as you might. But I certainly get the prescription you advise.
(HULK)
(Smash)
What if it was legalized, regulated, and taxed, and 100% of the tax proceeds went towards fighting the stuff we all agree is awful, trafficking, slavery, underage exploitation. I wouldn't expect 100% success, but I'd think a serious reduction would be possible.
(HULK)
(Smash)
@Henry Ford
SESTA/FOSTA: Did you think it was good or bad or results still pending?
I know it was pretty much hated by sex worker organizations. I'm unclear if there are measurable results thus far though.
SESTA/FOSTA: Did you think it was good or bad or results still pending?
I know it was pretty much hated by sex worker organizations. I'm unclear if there are measurable results thus far though.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Unfortunately, money isn’t the big missing piece of the puzzle on this subject. It’s information and it’s will. That’s why Thorn is such a great organization, matching will with projects and actively searching for information.
simey
Footballguy
I think a lot of people care, but they don't know what to do to help. There are special news segments on it here from time to time, and law enforcement tries to educate the public on things to pay attention to. Does your state play sex/human trafficking commercials? Mine does. From 2007 to 2014 there were 343 known sex trafficking cases in NC, and these were only the known ones at the time. The situation has become worse as traffickers become more sophisticated.
Last edited by a moderator:
bigmarc27
Footballguy
Definitely the 3rd.
Im glad for the discussion, I just find the entire thing interesting. Kind of like the Nike stuff - they’ve been huge utilizes of child labor for years and no one cares, someone sits during the anthem and oh my goodness that company is the debbil and we need to boycott. Just an interesting phenomenon.
bigmarc27
Footballguy
leftcoastguy7
Footballguy
Nobody traffics women in their mid-40s.
No way they were slaves. I'm sure they could leave/quit whenever they wanted. They were probably just living in the spa in an attempt to save money. Happens all the time.
Bonzai
Footballguy
The problem with legalization and regulation is that many people that turn to prostitution don't have the mental, emotional, or economic resources to start a legitimate business. So they turn to the easier, illegal form and end up with charges that make their life more and more difficult. Most sex workers want decriminalization across the board. That is what I support.
simey
Footballguy
The commercials are played on the regular networks like cbs, abc, fox, and nbc. An antenna would get all of those networks. I just looked and the commercials are from Project No Rest, which is based in NC, so the commercials are probably only aired in this state. Project No Rest is an organization dedicated to help stop human trafficking in NC. I was just reading that in 2017, there were 258 human trafficking cases, and over 1,200 victims and survivors. Charlotte has the most cases in the state, and ranks 8th in the nation for the number of human trafficking cases.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Henry Ford
Footballguy
simey
Footballguy
Some of these women in their 40s and up, were trafficked at a younger age. Back then there was even less help of getting out of that situation, and it is the life they grew up in, and still are in. They still could use some help at finding a better life. There are also some women who run the operations. 4 in 10 human traffickers across the world are females.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I think a few things, and they're complicated.
I think it's hard to make the decision to destroy a known quantity marketplace for something that bears investigating because the authorities can use that to rescue a lot of people, but by the same token it exponentially increases the ability of people to connect with exploited women and children through the people exploiting them. That's a really tough balancing act. I look forward to seeing how it goes.
But I absolutely applaud and support any bipartisan attempt to finally address the issues of sexual exploitation and human trafficking in this country, with a reasonable and reasoned idea that has at least some good consequences.
simey
Footballguy
There is especially a lot of older women that are performing forced labor on farm fields globally.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
And some just became trafficked at the age of 30 or 40 or 50. There have been women rescued from sex trafficking at 60 years old.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
Non-sexual labor is an ever-increasing percentage of human trafficking right now. Since governments have started addressing sex trafficking, especially.
bigmarc27
Footballguy
That’s fine, I’m not arguing that there are commercials, I just haven’t seen commercials in years except maybe at a Super Bowl party or something.
Henry Ford
Footballguy
I'm having a hard time figuring out what you're arguing. Everyone else seems genuinely engaged in the subject matter and has examples of previous interactions with the subject. You're the one saying people are "Johnny come lately" on the topic, but you don't know what's going on with it.
Is there something you wanted to discuss that I'm missing?
bigmarc27
Footballguy
Thorn
Footballguy
(HULK)
(Smash)
FYI, yesterday the lead prosecutor in this, Dave Aronberg gave a statement. He talked about how terrible trafficking is for a while, gave a few updates on the case, then took questions.
I couldn't hear the full question being asked about 5 1/2 minutes in, but the reporter asked if there was any evidence of trafficking, but his response was:
"The matters are still being investigated and I don't want to get too much into the details of the case cause this is a pending matter, but I can say this, that, so far there have been no charges of human trafficking in any of these cases, but that could change in the future depending on what the investigators find."
So, it could be trafficking, but they don't have enough evidence to charge that as of right now. If this is the case, why the heck are they shouting trafficking from the rooftops?
I've gotten real tired of messaging trumping facts, it is happening everywhere. There are people all over this country who think that Kraft was diddling little girls right now because of it. If indeed no charges for trafficking ever occur, he should sue the pants off of Dave Aronberg. I mean in the same statement he's saying, "This is not about lonely old men, it's about modern day slavery in our midst." I mean, if they're there because of their own free will, or even if you can't prove otherwise, you can't publically say that at a press conference right?
I couldn't hear the full question being asked about 5 1/2 minutes in, but the reporter asked if there was any evidence of trafficking, but his response was:
"The matters are still being investigated and I don't want to get too much into the details of the case cause this is a pending matter, but I can say this, that, so far there have been no charges of human trafficking in any of these cases, but that could change in the future depending on what the investigators find."
So, it could be trafficking, but they don't have enough evidence to charge that as of right now. If this is the case, why the heck are they shouting trafficking from the rooftops?
I've gotten real tired of messaging trumping facts, it is happening everywhere. There are people all over this country who think that Kraft was diddling little girls right now because of it. If indeed no charges for trafficking ever occur, he should sue the pants off of Dave Aronberg. I mean in the same statement he's saying, "This is not about lonely old men, it's about modern day slavery in our midst." I mean, if they're there because of their own free will, or even if you can't prove otherwise, you can't publically say that at a press conference right?
Similar threads
