Roethlisberger - Pro Bowl? (1 Viewer)

[Evilgrin72]

Ben doesn't average a lot of yards because the Steelers have been getting up on people early and then relying on the run to ice wins.

And how exactly is this argument supposed to sway people? "Sure, his stats aren't as good as the other guys....but....ummmm....they would have been better if he'd thrown the ball more!" Roethlisberger is a great team leader and game manager and probably even a great QB. But until the guy throw for more than 176 yards per game, he doesn't deserve to make a Pro Bowl.

You don't make a Pro Bowl based on your potential stats.

I'm going by the simple fact that the guy is 8-0 as a starter

Two words: Mike Kruczek.

Kordell was a Pro Bowler in '01, Roethlisberger should be this year.

Including his rushing yards, Kordell was responsible for 228 yards per game that year. Roethlisberger is averaging 187 total yards per game and isn't even on pace to eclipse Kordell's 3100 passing yards.

You're missing the entire point. Not once did I ever say "umm....his stats WOULD be better if he threw more...." Before you post the roll eyes, read everything I said. I was saying that he doesn't post great stats but deserves consideration not based on potential stats but based on the fact that he is leading the team to wins. Kruczek won his first 6 starts based solely on the fact that he was playing on a tean boasting arguably the greatest defense in NFL history. He didn't throw a single TD pass in those 6 wins...not ONE. I'd say that's a very different scenario.Talk about the stats all you want, my sole point in all of this is that the Pro Bowl voters often take winning into cosideration more than just raw numbers. This should get Roethlisberger in. If you care to disagree with this take, read this excerpt from Shawn's post again :

2001 Pro Bowl QBs

Kordell Stewart: 13-3 Steelers, 60.2% passing, 14/11-3109 (7.0 YPA), 537-5 rushing

Tom Brady: 11-5 Patriots, 63.9% passing, 18/12-2843 (6.9 YPA), 43-0 rushing

Rich Gannon: 10-6 Raiders, 65.8% passing, 27/9-3828 (7.0 YPA), 231-2 rushing

Left out...

Peyton Manning: 6-10 Colts, 62.7% passing, 26/23-4131 (7.6 YPA), 157-4 rushing

Steve McNair: 7-9 Titans, 61.3% passing, 21/12-3350 (7.8 YPA), 414-5 rushing

Trent Green: 6-10 Chiefs, 56.6 % passing, 17/24-3783 (7.2 YPA), 158-0 rushing

Seems to me it's pretty obvious that sometimes W-L takes precedence over just putting up big numbers. While Manning is an absolute lock, I believe Roethlisberger is right there with Brees and Brady for the last two spots, with Plummer just behind that group.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Why .OK he won all his games but really had 2 good games . The other gane he just played good enough not to lose.Not even close to a Pro Bowl.

It all depends on what you consider a good game. If you don't feel someone had a good game unless he posts 250 yds and 3 TDs, so be it. I'll gladly take 75% completion percentage for 175 yards, 1-2 TDs and no INTs, and a victory every week. I'd say that's a good game for a QB, if not eye-catching. The heavy Steeler fan base and the fact that he hasn't yet lost a game is going to garner a lot of support.

 

[Bustin Loose]

1. Brady - In all honesty I would take him over any other QB in the league. To the contrary of what many say he does have all the physical atributes needed and is actually underated in this area. Best field general in the game.2. Manning - Actually difficult to decide if Brees should be here but I'll have to go with Manning just because of the big numbers. Big arm and excellent student of the game. Let's see if he can out duel Brady in a few weeks.3. Brees - Went from a QB with some of the happiest feet in the game to a guy that is cool as can be. What you have to like is this kid was given up on. Most would have guessed he would not even be starting right now. So he goes out and works hard during the offseason studies the game tape and actually is starting to look like Brady . Just imagine if he gets a legit wideout. Brees, Tomlinson, Gates, and a stud wideout would be hard to stop.4. Green - This guy is just plain old good and is the type of guy that would play well on any team. Would anyone argue he could step in for Manning this year and put up similar munbers with that team?5. Leftwich - Was not a big fan of him to start but this kid has all the tools to be a star. Lots of games left this year and I'd suspect your going to be hearng this kids name alot for the rest of the year. Don't be to shcoked if Leftwich ends up with a couple Superbowl rings before it is all over.Big Ben - Plays on a very good team that is riding on a lot of emotion right now. Not sure he has really proven enough to get all the hype right now. Do you honestly think he could step in at San Diego and do what Brees is doing? Do you think he could step into the Colts offense and do what Manning is doing? Could he step in and play at KC and make the games competative like Green is doing? Would the Jags have a winning record with Ben at QB? I'd say no to all but that is just my opinion.

 

[Evilgrin72]

1. Brady - In all honesty I would take him over any other QB in the league. To the contrary of what many say he does have all the physical atributes needed and is actually underated in this area. Best field general in the game.2. Manning - Actually difficult to decide if Brees should be here but I'll have to go with Manning just because of the big numbers. Big arm and excellent student of the game. Let's see if he can out duel Brady in a few weeks.3. Brees - Went from a QB with some of the happiest feet in the game to a guy that is cool as can be. What you have to like is this kid was given up on. Most would have guessed he would not even be starting right now. So he goes out and works hard during the offseason studies the game tape and actually is starting to look like Brady . Just imagine if he gets a legit wideout. Brees, Tomlinson, Gates, and a stud wideout would be hard to stop.4. Green - This guy is just plain old good and is the type of guy that would play well on any team. Would anyone argue he could step in for Manning this year and put up similar munbers with that team?5. Leftwich - Was not a big fan of him to start but this kid has all the tools to be a star. Lots of games left this year and I'd suspect your going to be hearng this kids name alot for the rest of the year. Don't be to shcoked if Leftwich ends up with a couple Superbowl rings before it is all over.Big Ben - Plays on a very good team that is riding on a lot of emotion right now. Not sure he has really proven enough to get all the hype right now. Do you honestly think he could step in at San Diego and do what Brees is doing? Do you think he could step into the Colts offense and do what Manning is doing? Could he step in and play at KC and make the games competative like Green is doing? Would the Jags have a winning record with Ben at QB? I'd say no to all but that is just my opinion.

No-one expected him to step in AT ALL this year, let alone go undefeated. Take a look at what Drew Henson did on Thursday to understand what kind of talent it takes to do what he's done.I respect your opinion, but Byron Leftwich ahead of Roethlisberger for the Pro Bowl? That's a little far-fetched........

 

[omally]

I think Manning, Brees, Brady, Plummer, and Green should all be considered before Big Ben.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

I'm sure it would be a nice achievement, but he doesn't belong in the AFC Pro Bowl. NFC maybe after McNabb and Culpepper.AFCManningBradyBreesGreenPlummerAll deserve consideration before you even begin to start debating Big Ben vs Carr vs Lefty vs Pennington if he comes back healthy.

 

[denver90]

Has everyone missed the fact that Pro-Bowl teams are all-star teams a.k.a. fantasy teams. It is and should be mostly about stats, but the team's play should be considered if it's close because it's also a reward for the players. Save the leadership argument for MVP voting and vote in Manning, Brees, and Plummer. They are all probably on playoff teams so it not like you'd be slighting Ben or Brady for someone undeserving. Brady and Ben should be in the running for MVP with Peyton, and outsiders at the Pro Bowl...at least at their current pace.

 

[Frenchy Fuqua]

For those that think Roethlisberger won't be a Pro Bowler because his stats aren't equal to Brees and Plummer think again.

For most of John Elway's career he routinely made the Pro Bowl because he made the plays when it counted and was a winner on the field. His stats pre-Mike Shanahan were average to good.

Elway made the Pro Bowl 9 times. In five of those seasons he threw less than 20 TD passes. Roethlisberger is not Elway but he is in a similar position. The focus of the Steelers offense is not Ben's arm, it's winning games. His 8-0 record is more important that any passing stat. Putting up 400 yards and 5 TDs against the Raiders is hardly more impressive than beating two undefeated teams while managing a balanced offense.

 

[DonnyT33]

Do you think so? If not, who will make it in instead?Manning is a gimme, obviously.Other contendersrew Brees Trent GreenTom Brady??

LOL...Ok how about the Hall of Fame? He must be a lock for that as well. Too funny around here sometimes. Pitt would be in the same spot with almost any starting QB in the NFL(well almost, say 90% of them). They run the ball 70% of the time and there oline and D is getting it done. Ben is good but has MUCH to prove before being in the Pro Bowl. Brady is the man, bar none when it comes to winning time in big games in the NFL right now for QB's. He Ben goes to the pro bowl before Brady this year I would stop being a fan of the NFL. But no worriers here, it has no chance of happening. The pro bowl is a popularity contest for veteran players. Very few rookies ever make it to Hawaii. Let's wait and see how he does come playoff time this year. I for one would be shocked if gets out of the AFC this year.

 

[Bojang0301]

Trent Green has really led the Chiefs to a great season.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Pitt would be in the same spot with almost any starting QB in the NFL(well almost, say 90% of them).

I agree with a lot of what you say about the veterans, etc.This statement quoted is completely ridiculous, though. They would NOT be 9-1 with 90% of the QBs in the league. Just because Roethlisberger isn't putting up Playstation numbers doesn't mean he isn't winning games for his team. If you watched the Steelers week in and week out like I do, you'd see what a big part he plays in winning games for them. Turning busted plays into positive yardage, avoiding sacks (Maddox would have been sacked 40 times by now), making clutch throws on 3rd and long to sustain drives, scrambling for first downs when needed, not turning the ball over, etc. etc.It's easy for someone who doesn't watch the guy play every week to look at the passing yards and TD stats and say : "Oh, this guy isn't a big part of their success," but that's flat-out wrong. Ask any Steeler fan. The praise being heaped on him is not because Steeler fans are looking to tout their rookie prize. Look at what opposing coaches and players have said. Read what Cowher has said about Roethlisberger's effect on the team and part in their win streak. If anything, he's being underhyped at this point due to backlash - I have seen more than one person say Leftwich deserves to go to the Pro Bowl over Roethlisberger. That's just nuts.

 

[Ghost Rider]

For those that think Roethlisberger won't be a Pro Bowler because his stats aren't equal to Brees and Plummer think again.

For most of John Elway's career he routinely made the Pro Bowl because he made the plays when it counted and was a winner on the field. His stats pre-Mike Shanahan were average to good.

Elway made the Pro Bowl 9 times. In five of those seasons he threw less than 20 TD passes. Roethlisberger is not Elway but he is in a similar position. The focus of the Steelers offense is not Ben's arm, it's winning games. His 8-0 record is more important that any passing stat. Putting up 400 yards and 5 TDs against the Raiders is hardly more impressive than beating two undefeated teams while managing a balanced offense.

Right, but Elway was often winning games in the 4th quarter, often in the last minutes of the game. Roethlisberger's only 4th quarter comeback was against Dallas and a fumble recovery deep in Dallas territory was the biggest factor in that.How good did Roethlisberger look today?

 

[Evilgrin72]

For those that think Roethlisberger won't be a Pro Bowler because his stats aren't equal to Brees and Plummer think again.

For most of John Elway's career he routinely made the Pro Bowl because he made the plays when it counted and was a winner on the field. His stats pre-Mike Shanahan were average to good.

Elway made the Pro Bowl 9 times. In five of those seasons he threw less than 20 TD passes. Roethlisberger is not Elway but he is in a similar position. The focus of the Steelers offense is not Ben's arm, it's winning games. His 8-0 record is more important that any passing stat. Putting up 400 yards and 5 TDs against the Raiders is hardly more impressive than beating two undefeated teams while managing a balanced offense.

Right, but Elway was often winning games in the 4th quarter, often in the last minutes of the game. Roethlisberger's only 4th quarter comeback was against Dallas and a fumble recovery deep in Dallas territory was the biggest factor in that.How good did Roethlisberger look today?

Good enough to win, that's all I care about. Today certainly was a far cry from a Pro Bowl performance, that's for sure. You can't really penalize him for not leading more fourth-quarter comebacks though. If you're ahead going into the 4th every week, you can't really author a lot of comebacks.

 

[babydemon90]

At this point, I think there is no question Brees needs to make it this year.And I think Brady deserves to go ahead of Roeth...

 

[swandown]

For most of John Elway's career he routinely made the Pro Bowl because he made the plays when it counted and was a winner on the field. His stats pre-Mike Shanahan were average to good.

Oh geez. Here are Elway's stats from his 9 Pro-Bowl seasons:1986: 3485 yards, 19 TDs, 13 INTs, 257 rush yards (1 TD)

1987: 4264 yards, 25 TDs, 16 INTs, 405 rush yards (5 TDs)

1989: 3254 yards, 19 TDs, 19 INTs, 260 rush yards (3 TDs)

1991: 3253 yards, 13 TDs, 12 INTs, 255 rush yards (6 TDs)

1993: 4030 yards, 25 TDs, 10 INTs, 153 rush yards (0 TDs)

1994: 3989 yards, 18 TDs, 11 INTs, 268 rush yards (5 TDs)

1996: 3549 yards, 28 TDs, 15 INTs, 266 rush yards (4 TDs)

1997: 3635 yards, 27 TDs, 11 INTs, 218 rush yards (1 TD)

1998: 3454 yards, 27 TDs, 12 INTs, 116 rush yards (1 TD)

Avg: 3657 yards, 22 TDs, 13 INTs, 244 rush yards (3 TDs)

Roethlisberger's stats this year:

2750 yards, 19 TDs, 10 INTs, 147 rush yards (2 TDs)

(all stats pro-rated to 16 games)

Big Ben can't even beat out Elway's average Pro Bowl season.

 

[cstu]

At this point, I think there is no question Brees needs to make it this year.And I think Brady deserves to go ahead of Roeth...

It will be Brees. 21 TD's to 3 INT's and helping a team to an 8-3 record that wasn't supposed to win 5 games. He's been absolutely unreal and this is a Pro Bowl season if there has ever been one. Brady and BRoth are both potential Pro Bowl'ers, but they haven't been as important to their team's success as Brees IMO.

 

[Evilgrin72]

You're all forgetting one pivotal stat.Roethlisberger has the best winning percentage of any QB in NFL HISTORY (minimum 9 starts)

 

[Jason Wood]

I don't think there's even a question about Brady, he's in. The Pro Bowl is partly a popularity contest and as importantly, once you've established yourself to be a Pro Bowl caliber player, and you continue to win, you have a good chance of maintaining your spot. Brady, quarterbacking his team to a 10-1 record as widely regarded as one of the best at his position (and reigning Super Bowl MVP) all but assures him a spot.

Obviously Manning gets the second nod leaving a horse race between Brees, Plummer and probably Roth. But I would think Brees gets the nod here, because he's getting a ton of credit for leading the team on the field and in the locker room. Big Ben, while massively impressive for a rookie, isn't being touted or confused by anyone as THE leader of this offense, he's stepped in and performed well, but people (rightly or wrongly) aren't going to see a rookie as someone that's commanding the huddle or locker.

My picks for QB in both leagues:

AFC

1) Manning

2) Brady

3) Brees

NFC

1) Culpepper

2) McNabb

3) Favre

 

[AB in DC]

2001 Pro Bowl QBsKordell Stewart: 13-3 Steelers, 60.2% passing, 14/11-3109 (7.0 YPA), 537-5 rushingTom Brady: 11-5 Patriots, 63.9% passing, 18/12-2843 (6.9 YPA), 43-0 rushingRich Gannon: 10-6 Raiders, 65.8% passing, 27/9-3828 (7.0 YPA), 231-2 rushingLeft out...Peyton Manning: 6-10 Colts, 62.7% passing, 26/23-4131 (7.6 YPA), 157-4 rushingSteve McNair: 7-9 Titans, 61.3% passing, 21/12-3350 (7.8 YPA), 414-5 rushingTrent Green: 6-10 Chiefs, 56.6 % passing, 17/24-3783 (7.2 YPA), 158-0 rushing

The problem with this list is that Pro Bowl picks are announced after only 14 games. McNair had huge numbers in his last two weeks and may have made it over Brady if the voting closed two weeks later.Personally I think Big Ben's performance the last two weeks knocks him out of Pro Bowl contention.

 

[cracKer]

Big Ben can't even beat out Elway's average Pro Bowl season.

Imagine that, a rookie can't match up with a HOF'ers composite average from his nine best seasons?

 

[Native]

Two points:1) Brees at 8-3 is more impressive than Ben/Brady at 10-1. Youd be hard pressed to name a receiver on SD at the start of the season; Yet Brees is on pace for close to 4000 yards and the Chargers are - gasp - begining to run away with the AFC West. He's also thrown one INT in the last NINE games. Unless the Chargers implode, he should be a lock. 2) I admire Ben's play this year, even if hes been WAY overhyped. Still, he and Brady have led their teams to the same record. Given that, the decision should come down to statistics - where Brady clearly has the edge. Sorry Ben, you have to do more than hand the ball off to make the pro-bowl, no matter what Paul Mcguire says.

 

[Double_J]

Big Ben to the Pro Bowl??? Are you kidding me? This guy has done nothing but absolutely kill all potential for his receivers. He throws for 130 yards a game and you think he should go to the Pro Bowl? If you think he should go because of wins then the 3rd qb should be Brady. He's lost 1 game in the past 20+. Roethlisberger is ALL HYPE. "Wow, did you see that handoff???? That guy should be in the hall of fame. I've never seen anyone hand the ball off 40 times a game with such grace. Big Ben for MVP!!!!!!!!," give me a break. 1.Peyton2.Brees3.Brady4.Plummer5.Green6.Leftwich-how many come back victories this year???7.Big Ben

 

[djcolts]

I see it as Manning, Brady (his past achievements and the 9-1 record get him the #2 slot over Brees - yes that may not be fair), and Brees. Big Ben is probably #4 - team record alone doesn't get you in.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Roethlisberger is ALL HYPE. "Wow, did you see that handoff???? That guy should be in the hall of fame. I've never seen anyone hand the ball off 40 times a game with such grace. Big Ben for MVP!!!!!!!!," give me a break. 1.Peyton2.Brees3.Brady4.Plummer5.Green6.Leftwich-how many come back victories this year???7.Big Ben

You are either insane or drunk. Hey, look, I can respect if you feel Ben doesn't belong in the Pro Bowl. I'll be the first to admit that his performance the past two weeks has dropped him out of contention unless he picks it back up. Plaxico coming back will surely help that; Plax's injury has been a great indicator of his value to the offense (Steeler homers already knew this, but not everyone else did.)But to say the guy is ALL HYPE? Come on... surely you don't want to make that argument. When was the last time a rookie (early entry to boot) stepped in at QB and played the way he has? At this point, Manning, Henson, and Rivers are all hype, because we haven't seen anything tangible from them. Roethlisberger is getting it done ON THE FIELD. It's not hype if you back it up, the guy is friggin 9-0. Get real.For all the folks out there saying that Roethlisberger has nothing to do with the team's success, please remember this. Maddox started the year by scraping by a pathetic Oakland team at home by 3 points. He was down 20 to Baltimore in barely over 2 quarters of play when he got hurt. Roethlisberger came in and the Steelers outscored the Ravens over the remainder of that game and have not lost since. Same running backs, same defense, same run blockers, except for the players hurt since Roethlisberger took over.There's more to a quarterback than just yardage numbers. You've been playing fantasy football too long. If you want to say he doesn't belong in the Pro Bowl, fine. But to say the guy is overrated and the product of hype is asinine.

 

[Evilgrin72]

4 User(s) are reading this topic (2 Guests and 0 Anonymous Users)

2 Members: Evilgrin72, Double J

No response to back up your initial contention ??

 

[bikerider']

Treant Dilfer would have the Steelers winning to. I like Ben but the media is blowing him up to much.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Treant Dilfer would have the Steelers winning to. I like Ben but the media is blowing him up to much.

I haven't seen anything said in the media about Roethlisberger that isn't dead on. The guy has amazing poise. He's accurate. He has a big arm. He can make plays with his feet and can throw on the move. His passer rating is better in the 4th quarter and on 3rd down than at any other time, showing he steps his game up when it matters most. He has avoided countless sacks on plays that Maddox would have gone down on. He has posted the best numbers for a rookie QB in two decades. He has not just broken, but SHATTERED the record for consecutive wins to start a career. He has won over a veteran team and already shows the maturity and disposition of a 5-year vet, even though he's only 22 years old and has 4 years of QB experience at any level. His potential is limitless.All of these things are true. So please tell me what the media is saying that is "blowing him up too much" or that amounts to his being "all hype."Maybe these comments are the predictable backlash to the media attention he's received?

 

[Pittsburgh P]

Treant Dilfer would have the Steelers winning to. I like Ben but the media is blowing him up to much.

While he is not a Pro-Bowl QB this year, I feel like Big Ben is the equivalent of a quality song that gets released to popular and critical rave reviews, then gets overplayed and gets on your nerves. Then after a bit of time, the annoyance passes, and you can get back to enjoying the jam.And after enough time passes, you can gain some perspective, and then you can really decide whether the uproar was just hype, or justified. Big Ben might simply be a product of the system, or he might be the real deal. Maybe I am being a homer, but I am betting on the latter.

 

[Iwannabeacowboybaby!]

Peyton ManningTom BradyDrew BreesBen Rosthlesberger

 

[Evilgrin72]

He certainly should go. The guy hasn't lost a game yet.If you want to go strictly by stats, so be it, but I value wins and losses from a QB over just numbers.Manning, Brady, and Roethlisberger should represent the AFC if the season ended today, IMO, with Brees a VERY close 4th and Plummer/Green not in the picture.

Brees has the wins AND the numbers.Big Ben over Brees is flat out ridiculous.

I don't think it's flat-out ridiculous. At this point, if Brees keeps winning, and Roethlisberger plays like he did the last 2 games (though that will likely change once Plax gets back) then Brees definitely deserves to get in over Roethlisberger. However, if he picks it back up and the Steelers win out, I will go to my grave saying he belongs in the Pro Bowl. What stat is more important than 15-0? And please don't give me this - "he doesn't do anything to help the team win besides hand-off" crap. Anyone who says that knows nothing about the game of football in general, and even less about the Steelers offense.

 

[Evilgrin72]

How is this homerism?Point out anything in my post that is untrue :I haven't seen anything said in the media about Roethlisberger that isn't dead on. The guy has amazing poise. He's accurate. He has a big arm. He can make plays with his feet and can throw on the move. His passer rating is better in the 4th quarter and on 3rd down than at any other time, showing he steps his game up when it matters most. He has avoided countless sacks on plays that Maddox would have gone down on. He has posted the best numbers for a rookie QB in two decades. He has not just broken, but SHATTERED the record for consecutive wins to start a career. He has won over a veteran team and already shows the maturity and disposition of a 5-year vet, even though he's only 22 years old and has 4 years of QB experience at any level. His potential is limitless.If you can show me that this is hyperbole, I'll buy into your take, otherwise, am I not speaking the truth, Steeler fan or not? Or are you just pissed because a rookie torched your team twice already this year? (harmless jab-don't get all bent)

 

[Boltman]

I completely agree with evilgrin......I think Jay Riemersma should be the starting TE in the pro-bowl over Shockey and Crumpler based on the teams winning record. Nothing like thinking with a Homer's pont of view.

 

[Evilgrin72]

I completely agree with evilgrin......I think Jay Riemersma should be the starting TE in the pro-bowl over Shockey and Crumpler based on the teams winning record. Nothing like thinking with a Homer's pont of view.

But I'd be willing to bet that you'll be pushing for Drew Brees to get in. I guess what you're saying then is that you feel a backup tight end has as much bearing on a teams wins and losses as the starting quarterback? I think you're being a little ridiculous with that comparison.

 

[Sam Quentin]

Brady and Manning are locksI comes down to Brees, Roeth and PlummerOf the three I think Brees gets the nod.He has great numbers, the team is winning, and he's done w/o decent WRs (great TE; McCardell is good, but his conditioning and knowlege of this offense is suspect)

 

[Evilgrin72]

How is this homerism?Point out anything in my post that is untrue :I haven't seen anything said in the media about Roethlisberger that isn't dead on. The guy has amazing poise. He's accurate. He has a big arm. He can make plays with his feet and can throw on the move. His passer rating is better in the 4th quarter and on 3rd down than at any other time, showing he steps his game up when it matters most. He has avoided countless sacks on plays that Maddox would have gone down on. He has posted the best numbers for a rookie QB in two decades. He has not just broken, but SHATTERED the record for consecutive wins to start a career. He has won over a veteran team and already shows the maturity and disposition of a 5-year vet, even though he's only 22 years old and has 4 years of QB experience at any level. His potential is limitless.If you can show me that this is hyperbole, I'll buy into your take, otherwise, am I not speaking the truth, Steeler fan or not? Or are you just pissed because a rookie torched your team twice already this year? (harmless jab-don't get all bent)

16 of 21 231 1TD 1INT 13 RushYds, 1TD10 of 16 134 0TD 1INT 38 RushYdsHardly "torched". The running game, on the other hand, killed the Browns, which has been the key factor of the Steelers this year, behind that great offensive line.Homerism because all of the Steelers fans in here think it's a shoe-in for him to be in the Pro Bowl, yet everyone else thinks it is ridiculous.Again, I want to see what happens in the playoffs.

I hardly think it's a shoe-in. What I was saying is that if the guy goes 15-0 as a starter, he should be in. After the numbers posted the last couple weeks, I admit his chances are fading somewhat, but I still have to believe that if a guy goes an entire season undefeated, he almost HAS to be one of the top 3 QBs in his conference !Admittedly, we Steeler fans are much higher on Roethlisberger than many others because watching him week in, week out, we know how important he is to the team's win streak. Others look at the stats and that's usually just about all they see. Stats don't always tell the whole story. Non-homers are going to go based on the numbers, where he lags. They're also all (except maybe Colts or Pats fans) jealous that we have the Truth at QB and they're mostly stuck with 2nd rate washouts leading their teams.

 

[Double_J]

Alright, time to shoot down your obvious homerism and look at the numbers.Passing Touchdowns-Peyton, Plummer, Brees, Brady, Green, Bledsoe, Palmer, ROETHLISBERGERPassing Yardage-Peyton, Green, Plummer, Carr, Brady, Brees, Palmer, Collins, Leftwich, Bledsoe, Garcia, ROETHLISBERGERPasser Rating-Peyton, Brees, ROETHLISBERGEROf the three categories listed on NFL.com, Big Ben is in the top 7 in only one, passer rating. Naturally, the less you have to throw, the easier it is to be more accurate. There is less opportunity there to turn the ball over or throw incompletions. Big Ben is a good qb that will more than likely have a great career, but if you put any NFL starting qb on that team with that defense and that running game they'll go 11-0 as well. Well, except for Boller, lol.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Alright, time to shoot down your obvious homerism and look at the numbers.Passing Touchdowns-Peyton, Plummer, Brees, Brady, Green, Bledsoe, Palmer, ROETHLISBERGERPassing Yardage-Peyton, Green, Plummer, Carr, Brady, Brees, Palmer, Collins, Leftwich, Bledsoe, Garcia, ROETHLISBERGERPasser Rating-Peyton, Brees, ROETHLISBERGEROf the three categories listed on NFL.com, Big Ben is in the top 7 in only one, passer rating. Naturally, the less you have to throw, the easier it is to be more accurate. There is less opportunity there to turn the ball over or throw incompletions. Big Ben is a good qb that will more than likely have a great career, but if you put any NFL starting qb on that team with that defense and that running game they'll go 11-0 as well. Well, except for Boller, lol.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. My only point is that in the Steelers offense, what he needs to do to win games is run the offense efficiently, not make mistakes, and make plays when they need him to. He has done that. I don't think any QB besides Boller ( ) would be able to do that equally well. Some might, others might not. Maddox was certainly no great shakes before he got hurt. At this point, Manning is obviously a lock and then you have Brees, Roethlisberger, Plummer, and Brady. I don't see anyone other than those 5 getting in. They're all deserving. I think after this week, Big Ben is likely 4th, but you never know....

 

[Native]

Alright, time to shoot down your obvious homerism and look at the numbers.Passing Touchdowns-Peyton, Plummer, Brees, Brady, Green, Bledsoe, Palmer, ROETHLISBERGERPassing Yardage-Peyton, Green, Plummer, Carr, Brady, Brees, Palmer, Collins, Leftwich, Bledsoe, Garcia, ROETHLISBERGERPasser Rating-Peyton, Brees, ROETHLISBERGEROf the three categories listed on NFL.com, Big Ben is in the top 7 in only one, passer rating. Naturally, the less you have to throw, the easier it is to be more accurate. There is less opportunity there to turn the ball over or throw incompletions. Big Ben is a good qb that will more than likely have a great career, but if you put any NFL starting qb on that team with that defense and that running game they'll go 11-0 as well. Well, except for Boller, lol.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. My only point is that in the Steelers offense, what he needs to do to win games is run the offense efficiently, not make mistakes, and make plays when they need him to. He has done that. I don't think any QB besides Boller ( ) would be able to do that equally well. Some might, others might not. Maddox was certainly no great shakes before he got hurt. At this point, Manning is obviously a lock and then you have Brees, Roethlisberger, Plummer, and Brady. I don't see anyone other than those 5 getting in. They're all deserving. I think after this week, Big Ben is likely 4th, but you never know....

Until this season, Jay Fiedler had the highest winning percantage of all QB's over the last four years. Should he be a Pro Bowl QB because he managed the game well and helped the team win?

 

[Evilgrin72]

Alright, time to shoot down your obvious homerism and look at the numbers.Passing Touchdowns-Peyton, Plummer, Brees, Brady, Green, Bledsoe, Palmer, ROETHLISBERGERPassing Yardage-Peyton, Green, Plummer, Carr, Brady, Brees, Palmer, Collins, Leftwich, Bledsoe, Garcia, ROETHLISBERGERPasser Rating-Peyton, Brees, ROETHLISBERGEROf the three categories listed on NFL.com, Big Ben is in the top 7 in only one, passer rating. Naturally, the less you have to throw, the easier it is to be more accurate. There is less opportunity there to turn the ball over or throw incompletions. Big Ben is a good qb that will more than likely have a great career, but if you put any NFL starting qb on that team with that defense and that running game they'll go 11-0 as well. Well, except for Boller, lol.

I agree with a lot of what you're saying. My only point is that in the Steelers offense, what he needs to do to win games is run the offense efficiently, not make mistakes, and make plays when they need him to. He has done that. I don't think any QB besides Boller ( ) would be able to do that equally well. Some might, others might not. Maddox was certainly no great shakes before he got hurt. At this point, Manning is obviously a lock and then you have Brees, Roethlisberger, Plummer, and Brady. I don't see anyone other than those 5 getting in. They're all deserving. I think after this week, Big Ben is likely 4th, but you never know....

Until this season, Jay Fiedler had the highest winning percantage of all QB's over the last four years. Should he be a Pro Bowl QB because he managed the game well and helped the team win?

If you can point out a season in which he went 12-4 or better with a passer rating, completion percentage, and INT percentage in the top 3, then yes. That's basically the worst case-scenario for ben this year. If Fiedler did have a season like this (and he may have - I don't know) - please tell me about it. I would argue that he should have made the Pro Bowl that year despite having pedestrian yardage and TD totals in a run-first offense.

 

[jurb26]

He certainly should go. The guy hasn't lost a game yet.If you want to go strictly by stats, so be it, but I value wins and losses from a QB over just numbers.Manning, Brady, and Roethlisberger should represent the AFC if the season ended today, IMO, with Brees a VERY close 4th and Plummer/Green not in the picture.

Based on your own arguement, I would have to give the edge to Brees. He has the Ws and the stats. Yeah Ben has a few more wins, but I think that Brees' great edge in numbers makes the diff. here.

 

[Evilgrin72]

He certainly should go.  The guy hasn't lost a game yet.If you want to go strictly by stats, so be it, but I value wins and losses from a QB over just numbers.Manning, Brady, and Roethlisberger should represent the AFC if the season ended today, IMO, with Brees a VERY close 4th and Plummer/Green not in the picture.

Based on your own arguement, I would have to give the edge to Brees. He has the Ws and the stats. Yeah Ben has a few more wins, but I think that Brees' great edge in numbers makes the diff. here.

Agreed. After this week, I go with Manning, Brees, Brady, then Big Ben, with Plummer 5th. Of course, this is always subject to change week-to-week.Edited to add : However, if Roethlisberger wins out, he goes IMHO. I don't care what the stats say.

 

[mudshark]

He certainly should go.  The guy hasn't lost a game yet.If you want to go strictly by stats, so be it, but I value wins and losses from a QB over just numbers.Manning, Brady, and Roethlisberger should represent the AFC if the season ended today, IMO, with Brees a VERY close 4th and Plummer/Green not in the picture.

Based on your own arguement, I would have to give the edge to Brees. He has the Ws and the stats. Yeah Ben has a few more wins, but I think that Brees' great edge in numbers makes the diff. here.

Agreed. After this week, I go with Manning, Brees, Brady, then Big Ben, with Plummer 5th. Of course, this is always subject to change week-to-week.Edited to add : However, if Roethlisberger wins out, he goes IMHO. I don't care what the stats say.

Reality check here. First let me say I have not read all 3 pages of this ridiculous thread. Big Ben is playing nice. Not killing his team - period. Trent Dilfer played nice for the Ravens as well. Did he go to the Pro Bowl? I honestly don't remember and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I'd bet not. Yes, the Steelers have played some of the best football this season, but its because they are a well rounded team. Not because Ben is lighting the league on fire.Evilgrin, yes Pitt beat the Eagles. That was 3 games ago. Move on. The Steelers have not played particularly strong since then. They've beaten Cle, Cin, and Was and struggled in 2 of those 3.Come back to Earth.

 

[jurb26]

He certainly should go.  The guy hasn't lost a game yet.If you want to go strictly by stats, so be it, but I value wins and losses from a QB over just numbers.Manning, Brady, and Roethlisberger should represent the AFC if the season ended today, IMO, with Brees a VERY close 4th and Plummer/Green not in the picture.

Based on your own arguement, I would have to give the edge to Brees. He has the Ws and the stats. Yeah Ben has a few more wins, but I think that Brees' great edge in numbers makes the diff. here.

Agreed. After this week, I go with Manning, Brees, Brady, then Big Ben, with Plummer 5th. Of course, this is always subject to change week-to-week.Edited to add : However, if Roethlisberger wins out, he goes IMHO. I don't care what the stats say.

Reality check here. First let me say I have not read all 3 pages of this ridiculous thread. Big Ben is playing nice. Not killing his team - period. Trent Dilfer played nice for the Ravens as well. Did he go to the Pro Bowl? I honestly don't remember and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I'd bet not. Yes, the Steelers have played some of the best football this season, but its because they are a well rounded team. Not because Ben is lighting the league on fire.Evilgrin, yes Pitt beat the Eagles. That was 3 games ago. Move on. The Steelers have not played particularly strong since then. They've beaten Cle, Cin, and Was and struggled in 2 of those 3.Come back to Earth.

 

[mudshark]

He certainly should go.  The guy hasn't lost a game yet.If you want to go strictly by stats, so be it, but I value wins and losses from a QB over just numbers.Manning, Brady, and Roethlisberger should represent the AFC if the season ended today, IMO, with Brees a VERY close 4th and Plummer/Green not in the picture.

Based on your own arguement, I would have to give the edge to Brees. He has the Ws and the stats. Yeah Ben has a few more wins, but I think that Brees' great edge in numbers makes the diff. here.

Agreed. After this week, I go with Manning, Brees, Brady, then Big Ben, with Plummer 5th. Of course, this is always subject to change week-to-week.Edited to add : However, if Roethlisberger wins out, he goes IMHO. I don't care what the stats say.

Reality check here. First let me say I have not read all 3 pages of this ridiculous thread. Big Ben is playing nice. Not killing his team - period. Trent Dilfer played nice for the Ravens as well. Did he go to the Pro Bowl? I honestly don't remember and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I'd bet not. Yes, the Steelers have played some of the best football this season, but its because they are a well rounded team. Not because Ben is lighting the league on fire.Evilgrin, yes Pitt beat the Eagles. That was 3 games ago. Move on. The Steelers have not played particularly strong since then. They've beaten Cle, Cin, and Was and struggled in 2 of those 3.Come back to Earth.

 

[cstu]

He certainly should go.  The guy hasn't lost a game yet.If you want to go strictly by stats, so be it, but I value wins and losses from a QB over just numbers.Manning, Brady, and Roethlisberger should represent the AFC if the season ended today, IMO, with Brees a VERY close 4th and Plummer/Green not in the picture.

Based on your own arguement, I would have to give the edge to Brees. He has the Ws and the stats. Yeah Ben has a few more wins, but I think that Brees' great edge in numbers makes the diff. here.

Agreed. After this week, I go with Manning, Brees, Brady, then Big Ben, with Plummer 5th. Of course, this is always subject to change week-to-week.Edited to add : However, if Roethlisberger wins out, he goes IMHO. I don't care what the stats say.

No, the stats still matter. BRoth is playing great and doing what he needs to do, but that's it. He's still handing the ball off most of the game and only throwing the ball 20 times a gamel. It's not that hard to find open receivers when the defense is playing run the entire game. Brees has actually been throwing the ball to win games, not just relying on the running game. His rating is higher then BRoth and he has thrown 22 TD's to 3 INT's. Ben has 12 TD to 6 INT's. There's no question that both Brady and Brees deserve to be in the Pro Bowl. Ben needs to become a QB that wins games, not merely one that doesn't lose them ala Dilfer. Granted he's better than Dilfer, but he's still in the same type of offense that just needs a QB that doesn't make mistakes.

 

[Evilgrin72]

He certainly should go.  The guy hasn't lost a game yet.If you want to go strictly by stats, so be it, but I value wins and losses from a QB over just numbers.Manning, Brady, and Roethlisberger should represent the AFC if the season ended today, IMO, with Brees a VERY close 4th and Plummer/Green not in the picture.

Based on your own arguement, I would have to give the edge to Brees. He has the Ws and the stats. Yeah Ben has a few more wins, but I think that Brees' great edge in numbers makes the diff. here.

Agreed. After this week, I go with Manning, Brees, Brady, then Big Ben, with Plummer 5th. Of course, this is always subject to change week-to-week.Edited to add : However, if Roethlisberger wins out, he goes IMHO. I don't care what the stats say.

Reality check here. First let me say I have not read all 3 pages of this ridiculous thread. Big Ben is playing nice. Not killing his team - period. Trent Dilfer played nice for the Ravens as well. Did he go to the Pro Bowl? I honestly don't remember and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I'd bet not. Yes, the Steelers have played some of the best football this season, but its because they are a well rounded team. Not because Ben is lighting the league on fire.Evilgrin, yes Pitt beat the Eagles. That was 3 games ago. Move on. The Steelers have not played particularly strong since then. They've beaten Cle, Cin, and Was and struggled in 2 of those 3.Come back to Earth.

Where the hell did this come from? I wasn't even talking about the Eagles.What I am saying is that stats or no stats, any QB that goes through the entire year undefeated should be a mortal lock for the Pro Bowl unless he really did nothing to help the team win.What I am saying is that as far as I am concerned, a QB who wins games is more valuable IMO than one who puts up huge stats but doesn't engineer wins, no matter who it is. Roethlisberger, Brady, Brees or anyone else. This isnt homerism, it's just the way I feel about the QB position, especially having played it long ago.Everyone is saying Ben can't lead the team to wins with his arm. He has done that this season. Lately, the Steelers have been getting out in front of people and bludgeoning them with the run. That doesn't mean Roethlisberger CAN'T beat you with his arm, it just means he hasn't HAD to.Now you're going to knock the Steelers for having beaten poor teams the last few weeks? What are they supposed to do about the schedule? You don't have any losses to point out, so you're going to start nitpicking over WINS? They didn't look dominant, they struggled in the red zone..... Fact is, they're missing their most important offensive threat in Burress, and they're still winning games.The jealousy is unbecoming. :stillers:

 

[Evilgrin72]

He certainly should go.  The guy hasn't lost a game yet.If you want to go strictly by stats, so be it, but I value wins and losses from a QB over just numbers.Manning, Brady, and Roethlisberger should represent the AFC if the season ended today, IMO, with Brees a VERY close 4th and Plummer/Green not in the picture.

Based on your own arguement, I would have to give the edge to Brees. He has the Ws and the stats. Yeah Ben has a few more wins, but I think that Brees' great edge in numbers makes the diff. here.

Agreed. After this week, I go with Manning, Brees, Brady, then Big Ben, with Plummer 5th. Of course, this is always subject to change week-to-week.Edited to add : However, if Roethlisberger wins out, he goes IMHO. I don't care what the stats say.

No, the stats still matter. BRoth is playing great and doing what he needs to do, but that's it. He's still handing the ball off most of the game and only throwing the ball 20 times a gamel. It's not that hard to find open receivers when the defense is playing run the entire game. Brees has actually been throwing the ball to win games, not just relying on the running game. His rating is higher then BRoth and he has thrown 22 TD's to 3 INT's. Ben has 12 TD to 6 INT's. There's no question that both Brady and Brees deserve to be in the Pro Bowl. Ben needs to become a QB that wins games, not merely one that doesn't lose them ala Dilfer. Granted he's better than Dilfer, but he's still in the same type of offense that just needs a QB that doesn't make mistakes.

cstu: I agree with you. That's why I said that if the season ended today, Brees would be my #2 guy behind Manning.Everyone mocking my argument : However, if Big Ben finishes the year undefeated (14-0), I do believe he earns a spot. How often has it been done in league history? Is that really so absurd? If you think he has little to do with that record, you simply haven't been watching the games, just the stat page. Maybe he doesn't have a ton of yards or TDs because the Steelers run a lot, but what about the things that don't always show up in the league leader lists? 3rd down completion percentage? 4th quarter passer rating? Sacks avoided, and yards gained on those plays? Hits taken when delivering a perfect strike downfield? The things that make a great QB that stats can't always capture.Are these things irrelevant because you can't see it on a top-10 list?

 

[mudshark]

He certainly should go.  The guy hasn't lost a game yet.If you want to go strictly by stats, so be it, but I value wins and losses from a QB over just numbers.Manning, Brady, and Roethlisberger should represent the AFC if the season ended today, IMO, with Brees a VERY close 4th and Plummer/Green not in the picture.

Based on your own arguement, I would have to give the edge to Brees. He has the Ws and the stats. Yeah Ben has a few more wins, but I think that Brees' great edge in numbers makes the diff. here.

Agreed. After this week, I go with Manning, Brees, Brady, then Big Ben, with Plummer 5th. Of course, this is always subject to change week-to-week.Edited to add : However, if Roethlisberger wins out, he goes IMHO. I don't care what the stats say.

Reality check here. First let me say I have not read all 3 pages of this ridiculous thread. Big Ben is playing nice. Not killing his team - period. Trent Dilfer played nice for the Ravens as well. Did he go to the Pro Bowl? I honestly don't remember and I'm too lazy to look it up right now, but I'd bet not. Yes, the Steelers have played some of the best football this season, but its because they are a well rounded team. Not because Ben is lighting the league on fire.Evilgrin, yes Pitt beat the Eagles. That was 3 games ago. Move on. The Steelers have not played particularly strong since then. They've beaten Cle, Cin, and Was and struggled in 2 of those 3.Come back to Earth.

Where the hell did this come from? I wasn't even talking about the Eagles.What I am saying is that stats or no stats, any QB that goes through the entire year undefeated should be a mortal lock for the Pro Bowl unless he really did nothing to help the team win.What I am saying is that as far as I am concerned, a QB who wins games is more valuable IMO than one who puts up huge stats but doesn't engineer wins, no matter who it is. Roethlisberger, Brady, Brees or anyone else. This isnt homerism, it's just the way I feel about the QB position, especially having played it long ago.Everyone is saying Ben can't lead the team to wins with his arm. He has done that this season. Lately, the Steelers have been getting out in front of people and bludgeoning them with the run. That doesn't mean Roethlisberger CAN'T beat you with his arm, it just means he hasn't HAD to.Now you're going to knock the Steelers for having beaten poor teams the last few weeks? What are they supposed to do about the schedule? You don't have any losses to point out, so you're going to start nitpicking over WINS? They didn't look dominant, they struggled in the red zone..... Fact is, they're missing their most important offensive threat in Burress, and they're still winning games.The jealousy is unbecoming. :stillers:

My apologies on the Eagles reference. That's actually crossing over from other threads. My point is Ben is managing the offense, not the reason they are winning. My point regarding their latest wins is that Pitt has not been as dominating lately as they were earlier in the season. Yes, a win is a win, but they have not gone out and dominated inferior opponents like they should. 9 of 20, 131 yds, 4 sacks.

 

[jurb26]

THe sad truth is that lkie last year at the RB position in the ACF (Portis, Lewis, Holmes, LT), this years the AFC has far too many well qualified QBs. If Ben goes 14-0 there is no way I can see a way to leave him out.... but then again the same can be said for all of Brady, Plummer, and Brees. There just isnt enough spots to go around.

 

[Evilgrin72]

THe sad truth is that lkie last year at the RB position in the ACF (Portis, Lewis, Holmes, LT), this years the AFC has far too many well qualified QBs. If Ben goes 14-0 there is no way I can see a way to leave him out.... but then again the same can be said for all of Brady, Plummer, and Brees. There just isnt enough spots to go around.

You're exactly right. The difference is that none of those other guys will be unbeaten, while Roethlisberger would be. That alone I think should get him in with Manning and Brees.