Roethlisberger - Pro Bowl? (1 Viewer)

[Evilgrin72]

My point is Ben is managing the offense, not the reason they are winning.

And my point is that he is one of the biggest reasons they are winning. Even Cowher, who has been EXTREMELY measured in his praise of Roethlisberger in an attempt to keep the kid grounded, acquiesced as much.And yes, he played a poor game this week, but it was the first one all year in which he completed less than 50% of his passes, and he still didn't turn the ball over. If that's as bad as it gets, I'll take it, but a game like this at this point is the exception, rather than the rule. Don't underestimate the impact of the Burress injury either.Any of the other QBs considered, except maybe for Manning, I don't remember, have had subpar outings too. I remember Brady, for example, sucking the place out at Heinz. He may have thrown for 250 yards and 2 TDs but he was a BIG reason they lost the game. On the other hand, some games where Roethlisberger has gone 16-21 for 140 yards and no TDs, he converted countless 3rd and longs, avoided sacks, forced defenses to respect the pass which opens up the run game, made 1st downs by scrambling, etc. This is exactly what I am saying. Some people would look at that game and say he did little to help the team win except handoff. Wrong. The stat mongers that don't watch games would say :Brady 250 yds 2 TD Roethlisberger 140 yds 0 TDAnd start yelling Brady for Pro Bowl. In actuality, Roethlisberger played a MUCH better game, which is why I say W-L is more important than yards and TDs sometimes. That's the main point I have been making this whole time.

 

[RedRaiders]

I'd take Brady before this guy. Brady at least throws touchdown passes

 

[Evilgrin72]

I'd take Brady before this guy. Brady at least throws touchdown passes

 

[Maurile Tremblay]

He certainly should go. The guy hasn't lost a game yet.

Neither has Keenan McCardell. He's 4-0 this year.Are there any other undefeated players in the league?

 

[jurb26]

He certainly should go.  The guy hasn't lost a game yet.

Neither has Keenan McCardell. He's 4-0 this year.Are there any other undefeated players in the league?

Dillon for sure, oh and he is 10-0 I believe.

 

[Bojang0301]

Bump

 

[Ghost Rider]

After today, Plummer's pro bowl stock went down(even though all 4 INT's were deflections and not really his fault) and Roethlisberger's went up. However, I think Manning, Brees and Brady are still the 3 QB's that should/will go.

 

[Bojang0301]

After today, Plummer's pro bowl stock went down(even though all 4 INT's were deflections and not really his fault) and Roethlisberger's went up. However, I think Manning, Brees and Brady are still the 3 QB's that should/will go.

Ya I can see that but people were putting Trent Green ahead of Roth.

 

[Billy Bats]

Plummer over Brees for the Pro Bowl? What's wrong with some of you people?

 

[Kirby]

I wish there was a way to rate the qb's... oh wait!QB RatingManning - 126.3Roethlisberger - 103.2Brees - 103.1

 

[Workhorse]

Last night they showed an interesting stat: Big Ben is the first QB since Jim Harbaugh in 1994 to have less than 25 passing attempts in a game for 9 consecutive weeks.He sure looked good in crunch time last night, though. He's the real deal. With another year or two under his belt, he'll be a Pro Bowl fixture for a long time.

 

[Ghost Rider]

I wish there was a way to rate the qb's... oh wait!QB RatingManning - 126.3Roethlisberger - 103.2Brees - 103.1

For the last time, THAT IS NOT A QUARTERBACK RATING. IT IS A PASSER RATING! It is a meaningless statistic.

 

[Evilgrin72]

I wish there was a way to rate the qb's... oh wait!QB RatingManning - 126.3Roethlisberger - 103.2Brees - 103.1

For the last time, THAT IS NOT A QUARTERBACK RATING. IT IS A PASSER RATING! It is a meaningless statistic.

How is it a meaningless statistic? It factors in yards, completion percentage, TDs, INTs and everything else. I agree with Maurile that yards per attempt is the most important stat because it boils passing performance down to its absolute essence, but passer rating is as comprehensive a stat as there is. If that stat is meaningless, they basically all are, and it comes down strictly to wins and losses.

 

[Evilgrin72]

I would just like to add for all of those that were in this thread and another making the following statements :a) "The Steelers win despite Roethlisberger, not because of him."andb) "I want to see this guy win a game with his arm instead of relying on the running game all the time and not making mistakes."a) You were wrongb) Did you enjoy it?

 

[djcolts]

Big Ben was #2 in the voting for AFC QBs at last report. He could make it over either Brady or Brees. He helped his case last night.

 

[Evilgrin72]

Big Ben was #2 in the voting for AFC QBs at last report. He could make it over either Brady or Brees. He helped his case last night.

Nice. Who else is in the 28% that are going to be right in this poll?

 

[Ghost Rider]

I wish there was a way to rate the qb's... oh wait!QB RatingManning - 126.3Roethlisberger - 103.2Brees - 103.1

For the last time, THAT IS NOT A QUARTERBACK RATING. IT IS A PASSER RATING! It is a meaningless statistic.

How is it a meaningless statistic? It factors in yards, completion percentage, TDs, INTs and everything else. I agree with Maurile that yards per attempt is the most important stat because it boils passing performance down to its absolute essence, but passer rating is as comprehensive a stat as there is. If that stat is meaningless, they basically all are, and it comes down strictly to wins and losses.

There is a reason it is called a PASSER RATING, not a QUARTERBACK RATING. How are you not getting this? There are far too many intangibles involving a QB that cannot be measured in a stupid passer rating. What about QB's who make a lot of plays with their feet and such, like Vick or Culpepper? That passer rating doesn't factor in anything a QB does running with the football and that is a key component to several of the leagues top quarterbacks, so that is one reason why the passer rating stat is meaningless.

 

[Evilgrin72]

I wish there was a way to rate the qb's... oh wait!QB RatingManning - 126.3Roethlisberger - 103.2Brees - 103.1

For the last time, THAT IS NOT A QUARTERBACK RATING. IT IS A PASSER RATING! It is a meaningless statistic.

How is it a meaningless statistic? It factors in yards, completion percentage, TDs, INTs and everything else. I agree with Maurile that yards per attempt is the most important stat because it boils passing performance down to its absolute essence, but passer rating is as comprehensive a stat as there is. If that stat is meaningless, they basically all are, and it comes down strictly to wins and losses.

There is a reason it is called a PASSER RATING, not a QUARTERBACK RATING. How are you not getting this? There are far too many intangibles involving a QB that cannot be measured in a stupid passer rating. What about QB's who make a lot of plays with their feet and such, like Vick or Culpepper? That passer rating doesn't factor in anything a QB does running with the football and that is a key component to several of the leagues top quarterbacks, so that is one reason why the passer rating stat is meaningless.

OK, then tell me what stat has meaning? Do passing TDs take into consideration how well a QB gets first downs running the ball? Does the passing yardage stat tell us if a QB made heady choices throwing a ball away under pressure as opposed to taking a bad sack?Your contention seems to be that ALL stats are virtually meaningless, because there is no ONE individual way to somehow encapsulate a QBs performance using every possible criteria, subjective or otherwise, and distill it down to a single, indisputable number.Either that, or you feel that ALL stats should be measured and considered when evaluating a QBs performance...we should use every shred of data available. If this is the case, then passer rating is absolutely NOT meaningless. In fact, it would have the MOST meaning of any stat because it takes more into consideration than any other statistic.If you're arguing that stats are overrated when evaluating a QB, you're preaching to the choir. All along in this thread I have been championing Ben for the Pro Bowl based on his wins, not his numbers. If this is not your point, then your logic is FLAVVED. You can't pick and choose the stats that support your contention.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Ok, I will said loud and clear so maybe you will finally understand it: IT IS NOT A QUARTERBACK RATING. IT IS A PASSER RATING!

I never said all stats were not important, but a rating that doesn't factor in all statistical facets of a player's game should not be given much weight IMO.

 

[AhrnCityPahnder]

Ok, I will said loud and clear so maybe you will finally understand it: IT IS NOT A QUARTERBACK RATING. IT IS A PASSER RATING!

I never said all stats were not important, but a rating that doesn't factor in all statistical facets of a player's game should not be given much weight IMO.

so, along with passer rating, passing yards, passing TDs, TD-INT ratio, and every other single passing stat is meaningless? Explain how. If you're saying they're not meaningless, then you're contradicting yourself.

 

[AB in DC]

Wow, people are dense here today.1. It's a PASSER rating. 2. It is NOT a rating of QB performance overall. 3. It is NOT a meaningless stat. It's no better or worse than any other stat. It's just one of many measuring sticks.

 

[Bojang0301]

Ok, I will said loud and clear so maybe you will finally understand it: IT IS NOT A QUARTERBACK RATING. IT IS A PASSER RATING!

I never said all stats were not important, but a rating that doesn't factor in all statistical facets of a player's game should not be given much weight IMO.

For the last time, THAT IS NOT A QUARTERBACK RATING. IT IS A PASSER RATING! It is a meaningless statistic.

 

[CrossEyed]

Fine, it's a PASSER RATING. So Ben has the 2nd highest PASSER RATING in the AFC, and he's 10-0. So now explain to me why he shouldn't be in the Pro Bowl?

 

[Evilgrin72]

Ok, I will said loud and clear so maybe you will finally understand it: IT IS NOT A QUARTERBACK RATING. IT IS A PASSER RATING!

I never said all stats were not important, but a rating that doesn't factor in all statistical facets of a player's game should not be given much weight IMO.

You've said it a hundred times. I get it. It's a passer rating, it doesn't involve running the football. You'll notice in my previous post, the only time I even referred to the stat by name, I called it passer rating. Let's get past the semantics.Does a PASSER rating, in conjunction with rushing stats, then have merit? I cannot figure out what the point is that you're attempting to make.

If passer rating should not be given much weight, then what stats SHOULD be given a lot of weight?

 

[Evilgrin72]

Fine, it's a PASSER RATING. So Ben has the 2nd highest PASSER RATING in the AFC, and he's 10-0. So now explain to me why he shouldn't be in the Pro Bowl?

Thanks for boiling it down to its essence, Cross-Eyed.

 

[AB in DC]

Fine, it's a PASSER RATING. So Ben has the 2nd highest PASSER RATING in the AFC, and he's 10-0. So now explain to me why he shouldn't be in the Pro Bowl?

Yards per attempt:Manning 9.41Ben 8.47Green 8.33 Brady 7.76Brees 7.54Yards per gameManning 302Green 284Brady 231Brees 214Ben 185 (based on 10.5 g)This is the debate in a nutshell. Ben has been very efficient (as you can see in passer rating and YPA), but not very productive (low yardage total). Maybe he'd be more productive if the Steelers ran less and he simply threw the ball more...but maybe not.Think about it this way. Manning is obviously in. Who's #2? Take a look at this stat:TD/INT ratioBrees 21/4 = 5.25Manning 44/9 = 4.9Ben 14/6 = 2.3Brady 19/9 = 2.1Green 18/11 = 1.6This is Brees's calling card right here. There are not many stats where Manning is not the tops. He has an excellent record, his passer rating is 0.1 behind the second place QB, and his running ability is quite good (and underrated). Another bad game like yesterday might knock him down, but for now, I think he's the clear 2.That leaves Green, Brady, and Ben for #3. Green has been the most productive of the three and is almost as efficient as Ben. His record stinks, but his team's defense and WRs are worse than Pittsburgh's. So I'm not sure Ben is clearly better than Green. Brady has had just about the same record as Ben, and has been more productive with worse WRs. So I'm not sure Ben is clearly better than Brady.I'm not sure who I'd vote for as #3, but it's far from clearcut.

 

[CrossEyed]

Fine, it's a PASSER RATING. So Ben has the 2nd highest PASSER RATING in the AFC, and he's 10-0. So now explain to me why he shouldn't be in the Pro Bowl?

Yards per attempt:Manning 9.41Ben 8.47Green 8.33 Brady 7.76Brees 7.54Yards per gameManning 302Green 284Brady 231Brees 214Ben 185 (based on 10.5 g)This is the debate in a nutshell. Ben has been very efficient (as you can see in passer rating and YPA), but not very productive (low yardage total). Maybe he'd be more productive if the Steelers ran less and he simply threw the ball more...but maybe not.Think about it this way. Manning is obviously in. Who's #2? Take a look at this stat:TD/INT ratioBrees 21/4 = 5.25Manning 44/9 = 4.9Ben 14/6 = 2.3Brady 19/9 = 2.1Green 18/11 = 1.6This is Brees's calling card right here. There are not many stats where Manning is not the tops. He has an excellent record, his passer rating is 0.1 behind the second place QB, and his running ability is quite good (and underrated). Another bad game like yesterday might knock him down, but for now, I think he's the clear 2.That leaves Green, Brady, and Ben for #3. Green has been the most productive of the three and is almost as efficient as Ben. His record stinks, but his team's defense and WRs are worse than Pittsburgh's. So I'm not sure Ben is clearly better than Green. Brady has had just about the same record as Ben, and has been more productive with worse WRs. So I'm not sure Ben is clearly better than Brady.I'm not sure who I'd vote for as #3, but it's far from clearcut.

He doesn't need to put up big yardage to win. He should be penalized for that? Being the best QB doesn't just mean you have the most yards or most TDs. It means you play the position the best. Which means you complete passes when you need to, lead your team, and win games. Something that Ben has done as well as anyone in the league this year. Isn't a primary function of a QB to run the offense and produce wins?

 

[babydemon90]

He doesn't need to put up big yardage to win. He should be penalized for that? Being the best QB doesn't just mean you have the most yards or most TDs. It means you play the position the best. Which means you complete passes when you need to, lead your team, and win games. Something that Ben has done as well as anyone in the league this year. Isn't a primary function of a QB to run the offense and produce wins?

You know as well as anyone that the Steeler defense has as much to do with their wins as anyone. If that defense doesn't hold that last Fred Taylor run to under 3 yard, they lose.Ben is playing well. Better then Manning? No. Better then Brees? No. Better then Tom Brady or Trent Green? We shall see.

 

[Bubba]

There is a reason it is called a PASSER RATING, not a QUARTERBACK RATING. How are you not getting this? There are far too many intangibles involving a QB that cannot be measured in a stupid passer rating. What about QB's who make a lot of plays with their feet and such, like Vick or Culpepper?

or Roethlisberger...

 

[Ghost Rider]

Fine, it's a PASSER RATING. So Ben has the 2nd highest PASSER RATING in the AFC, and he's 10-0. So now explain to me why he shouldn't be in the Pro Bowl?

I have already explained numerous times in this thread why Roethlisberger shouldn't make the Pro Bowl. Read through it again.Maybe you can explain to me how he is more deserving than Manning, Brees or Brady.

 

[KnowledgeReignsSupreme]

Unlike Brady, Brees and Peyton, I don't think you can make a very strong case for Ben being his team's offensive MVP. He's probably no better than the 4th best player on his team's offense and that's why I wouldn't and didn't vote him to the Pro Bowl.

 

[Boltman]

39 posts on this thread by EvilGrin.....I still disagree with you whole heartedly, but maybe if you tell me another 39 times I might overlook his lack of statistics and put him on my pro bowl ballet. He is playing well for a rookie and had a very good game last night, but he is not yet one of the top three qb's in the conference. If it is based completely on win loss then why not just have the AFC champions play the NFC champions at the Superbowl and again at the Probowl. Jerame Tuman and Vernan Hayes are also on the winning roster, but I am not sure they have earned a trip to Hawaii yet.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

How did captain Ken and his "Homer" squad miss this thread

 

[Arschloch]

39 posts on this thread by EvilGrin.....I still disagree with you whole heartedly, but maybe if you tell me another 39 times I might overlook his lack of statistics and put him on my pro bowl ballet. He is playing well for a rookie and had a very good game last night, but he is not yet one of the top three qb's in the conference. If it is based completely on win loss then why not just have the AFC champions play the NFC champions at the Superbowl and again at the Probowl. Jerame Tuman and Vernan Hayes are also on the winning roster, but I am not sure they have earned a trip to Hawaii yet.

Football Outsiders QB RatingsSome food for thought.Based on Football Outsiders' ratings (which take into account quality of defenses faced), Roethlisberger has actually been the 4th-best AFC QB (behind Manning, Brady, and Green) overall, and the 2nd-best on a per-play basis. In other words, he's behind Brady and Green only because they've thrown more passes this year than he has.My interpretation is that while Roethlisberger has been the 2nd most efficient AFC QB this year, in terms of overall -value- he's only 4th best.Brees's numbers unadjusted for defense are better than Roethlisberger, but Brees falls far behind after taking into account the quality of defenses each guy has faced.

 

[NE_REVIVAL]

Manning is going.Brees, Brady and Roesthlisberger are all deserving as well.It would be fine with me if it works out like it did last year

 

[Evilgrin72]

39 posts on this thread by EvilGrin.....I still disagree with you whole heartedly, but maybe if you tell me another 39 times I might overlook his lack of statistics and put him on my pro bowl ballet. He is playing well for a rookie and had a very good game last night, but he is not yet one of the top three qb's in the conference. If it is based completely on win loss then why not just have the AFC champions play the NFC champions at the Superbowl and again at the Probowl. Jerame Tuman and Vernan Hayes are also on the winning roster, but I am not sure they have earned a trip to Hawaii yet.

40.I'm flattered that you took the time to count all the posts. One of the reason I have posted so many times here is because I have to keep making the same points over and over. For example.... a team's W-L record should not be the ONLY factor in Pro Bowl voting. However, for a QB, it is VERY important. For a blocking TE who doesn't catch passes or a 3rd down RB who gets 1-2 carries a game, the team's record doesn't carry as much weight as it does for the starting QB. Come on. I see your point, but you can't really believe that a blocking TE and a starting QB are equally responsible for a team's success.However, Roethlisberger's stats are not awful. Like I have said, he's not going to put up eye-popping numbers in the yards and TDs department throwing 18 passes a game. In stats where number of attempts don't factor into it, such as passer rating, 4th quarter passer rating, 3rd down passer rating, completion percentage, yards per attempt, INTs, total turnovers, rushing yards, etc. Roethlisberger is in the top 3 in the AFC. In fact, I believe he's in the top 3 in every single one of those categories except maybe for rushing yards. Now, please don't start nitpicking this and quoting numbers unless you really want to. My point is, he has stats to back up his 10-0 record. It's not JUST the wins, it's a combination of things.People pushing Trent Green over Roethlisberger have to be kidding. These are folks who go STRICTLY by stats. Sure, Pittsburgh has a much better defense than Kansas City, and that factors heavily into things, but the fact is that a QB in the NFL is measured first and foremost by wins. That's just the way it is. Roethlisberger is 10-0, Green is 5-7. If you think Green gets in before Ben, you're kidding yourself.Bottom line : Manning is in. From there it's Brees, Brady, and Roethlisberger for 2 spots. They're ALL deserving. I just believe that when all is said and done, Ben will get to Hawaii. Judging by the fact that the "YES" percentage has gone from 27% tp 30% today alone leads me to believe more folks are getting on the bandwagon.

 

[Evilgrin72]

He doesn't need to put up big yardage to win.  He should be penalized for that?  Being the best QB doesn't just mean you have the most yards or most TDs.  It means you play the position the best.  Which means you complete passes when you need to, lead your team, and win games.  Something that Ben has done as well as anyone in the league this year.  Isn't a primary function of a QB to run the offense and produce wins?

You know as well as anyone that the Steeler defense has as much to do with their wins as anyone. If that defense doesn't hold that last Fred Taylor run to under 3 yard, they lose.Ben is playing well. Better then Manning? No. Better then Brees? No. Better then Tom Brady or Trent Green? We shall see.

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Good information here.

 

[Bojang0301]

He doesn't need to put up big yardage to win. He should be penalized for that? Being the best QB doesn't just mean you have the most yards or most TDs. It means you play the position the best. Which means you complete passes when you need to, lead your team, and win games. Something that Ben has done as well as anyone in the league this year. Isn't a primary function of a QB to run the offense and produce wins?

You know as well as anyone that the Steeler defense has as much to do with their wins as anyone. If that defense doesn't hold that last Fred Taylor run to under 3 yard, they lose.Ben is playing well. Better then Manning? No. Better then Brees? No. Better then Tom Brady or Trent Green? We shall see.

LOL not better then Trent Green? Your actually going to question that. Put the crack pipe down. His win/loss ratio alone makes him better then Trent Green.

 

[Bojang0301]

He doesn't need to put up big yardage to win.  He should be penalized for that?  Being the best QB doesn't just mean you have the most yards or most TDs.  It means you play the position the best.  Which means you complete passes when you need to, lead your team, and win games.  Something that Ben has done as well as anyone in the league this year.  Isn't a primary function of a QB to run the offense and produce wins?

You know as well as anyone that the Steeler defense has as much to do with their wins as anyone. If that defense doesn't hold that last Fred Taylor run to under 3 yard, they lose.Ben is playing well. Better then Manning? No. Better then Brees? No. Better then Tom Brady or Trent Green? We shall see.

3qrwsx dwqaszdx e3wexcd fdedvzasewsadwqsazxqeaszxzzx c

Good information here.

LOL I spilled my pop and was trying to clean my keyboard.

 

[Marc Levin]

I think Roeth has an outside chance, esp. when you consider he has yet to lose a start.If the Steelers manage 15-1, it wil lbevery hard to keep him out, but the Pats finishing 15-1 might do that as Brady would probably garner way more votes.That said, Manning and Brees are locks. Brady and Green are probable. Roeth only has a very outside chance b/c his numbers outside of W/L don't support a pro bowl appearance.

 

[Evilgrin72]

I think Roeth has an outside chance, esp. when you consider he has yet to lose a start.If the Steelers manage 15-1, it wil lbevery hard to keep him out, but the Pats finishing 15-1 might do that as Brady would probably garner way more votes.That said, Manning and Brees are locks. Brady and Green are probable. Roeth only has a very outside chance b/c his numbers outside of W/L don't support a pro bowl appearance.

Do the fan voting and the player voting count equally? I read today that Ben is #2 in the fan voting, so that would be a good start.If the Steelers manage 15-1, or even 14-2, it seems to me that he should get in, but again, that's just my opinion. I wouldn't cry about it if Manning, Brees, and Brady go - in fact, it will probably go down that way - but if Trent Green goes ahead of him after a sub-.500 season, there's something wrong there.

 

[Marc Levin]

I wouldn't cry about it if Manning, Brees, and Brady go - in fact, it will probably go down that way - but if Trent Green goes ahead of him after a sub-.500 season, there's something wrong there.

I agree. BUt, if Green finishes th eyear with a flouruish of numbers, after being in the Pro Bowl last year he might get in again this year.With 3 spots getting voted in, one of Brady, Brees or Manning might not make it do to injury, in which case, I would think Roeth or Green would go as the alternate/replacement.

 

[Arschloch]

I wouldn't cry about it if Manning, Brees, and Brady go - in fact, it will probably go down that way - but if Trent Green goes ahead of him after a sub-.500 season, there's something wrong there.

Why is there something wrong?Isn't it possible that Trent Green has actually been more valuable this year despite the fact that his team is 4-8?I realize that a QB's play is extremely important in determining whether a team wins or loses. But don't you think there's some possibility that some combination of superior teammates, luck, and Green's larger role in his offense has actually made Green a more valuable player this year than Roethlisberger?

 

[Evilgrin72]

I wouldn't cry about it if Manning, Brees, and Brady go - in fact, it will probably go down that way - but if Trent Green goes ahead of him after a sub-.500 season, there's something wrong there.

Why is there something wrong?Isn't it possible that Trent Green has actually been more valuable this year despite the fact that his team is 4-8?I realize that a QB's play is extremely important in determining whether a team wins or loses. But don't you think there's some possibility that some combination of superior teammates, luck, and Green's larger role in his offense has actually made Green a more valuable player this year than Roethlisberger?

No. I see what you're saying, but I don't think a QB who is sub .500 has had a better year than one who is undefeated, no matter how many yards the former has. Roethlisberger is also well ahead of Green in a number of stats in addition to the vast discrepancy in record. You have to remember Big Ben took over a team that was 7-11 in the last year and change under Maddox and are 10-0 under him. Granted, offensive line play (specifically run-blocking) factors into that, as well as improved play by the defense (specifically on 3rd down) but Roethlisberger has been as big a part of the turn-around as any player on that team.

 

[Marc Levin]

I wouldn't cry about it if Manning, Brees, and Brady go - in fact, it will probably go down that way - but if Trent Green goes ahead of him after a sub-.500 season, there's something wrong there.

Why is there something wrong?Isn't it possible that Trent Green has actually been more valuable this year despite the fact that his team is 4-8?I realize that a QB's play is extremely important in determining whether a team wins or loses. But don't you think there's some possibility that some combination of superior teammates, luck, and Green's larger role in his offense has actually made Green a more valuable player this year than Roethlisberger?

No. I see what you're saying, but I don't think a QB who is sub .500 has had a better year than one who is undefeated, no matter how many yards the former has.

This is true for who "should" get in, but it seems to rarely matter in Pro Bowl voting, which is primarily stat drive.If this were the MVP race . . . .

 

[Evilgrin72]

I wouldn't cry about it if Manning, Brees, and Brady go - in fact, it will probably go down that way - but if Trent Green goes ahead of him after a sub-.500 season, there's something wrong there.

Why is there something wrong?Isn't it possible that Trent Green has actually been more valuable this year despite the fact that his team is 4-8?I realize that a QB's play is extremely important in determining whether a team wins or loses. But don't you think there's some possibility that some combination of superior teammates, luck, and Green's larger role in his offense has actually made Green a more valuable player this year than Roethlisberger?

No. I see what you're saying, but I don't think a QB who is sub .500 has had a better year than one who is undefeated, no matter how many yards the former has.

This is true for who "should" get in, but it seems to rarely matter in Pro Bowl voting, which is primarily stat drive.If this were the MVP race . . . .

You're right, and that's why he may not make it. Watching him week to week, it just seems hard for me to believe that 3 or more QBs have played better the last 10 weeks, especially considering the significant injuries the Steelers have had to skill position players.

 

[Arschloch]

No. I see what you're saying, but I don't think a QB who is sub .500 has had a better year than one who is undefeated, no matter how many yards the former has. Roethlisberger is also well ahead of Green in a number of stats in addition to the vast discrepancy in record. You have to remember Big Ben took over a team that was 7-11 in the last year and change under Maddox and are 10-0 under him. Granted, offensive line play (specifically run-blocking) factors into that, as well as improved play by the defense (specifically on 3rd down) but Roethlisberger has been as big a part of the turn-around as any player on that team.

If you check back a few posts, you'll see that I pointed out that Roethlisberger has been better than Green this year on a per-play basis. But Green has thrown a lot more passes than Roethlisberger has. It may not be fair to Roethlisberger, but Green -has- had more opportunities, and as a result, he may have actually been more valuable to his team than Roethlisberger has been to his.Sure, part of that may be because Kansas City's defense sucks and Green -has- to keep throwing to keep his team in the game. Another way to look at it is that despite the fact that opposing teams know Kansas City's going to throw, Green still does well.So even though it wouldn't surprise me if Roethlisberger has been better per-play, it's really tough for me to say that he's been more valuable to his team given that he's thrown 178 fewer passes than Green has, given that Green's been quite efficient himself.

 

[Marc Levin]

It may not be fair to Roethlisberger, but Green -has- had more opportunities, and as a result, he may have actually been more valuable to his team than Roethlisberger has been to his.

not sure exactly how you all got on this issue of more valuable to his team, but that rarely means much in pro bowl matters.W-L is tossed out when picking the player's, coach's, and fan's favorite players - that is stat and name recognition driven.

 

[Marc Levin]

that is stat and name recognition driven.

P.S. - and green may have tose things over Roeth.

 

[Evilgrin72]

It may not be fair to Roethlisberger, but Green -has- had more opportunities, and as a result, he may have actually been more valuable to his team than Roethlisberger has been to his.

not sure exactly how you all got on this issue of more valuable to his team, but that rarely means much in pro bowl matters.W-L is tossed out when picking the player's, coach's, and fan's favorite players - that is stat and name recognition driven.

That's a good point, Marc. I have trouble separating the two, particularly when it comes to a player I support as fervently as Big Ben. I did see that Roethlisberger is #2 behind Manning as of right now in the fan voting, so maybe if he impresses enough opponents and opposing coaches, he might squeak in. Seems unlikely though - a rookie is not going to get the same level of respect from guys in the league until he proves he can get it done over time. I guess we'll see.

My contention all along has been that he deserves to go, but we're really talking about whether he will go.