ryan howard for pujols (1 Viewer)

[wazoo11]

It's the sort of thing that is much more likely to happen in fantasy baseball than in real life, but according to sources, an idea has been kicked around the Phillies' organization internally, with discussions about proposing a swap of slugger Ryan Howard for St. Louis superstar Albert Pujols.

It's not fully clear whether the Phillies actually have approached the Cardinals with the idea, and even if St. Louis were to seriously consider such an offer, executives with the Cardinals would have to swallow very hard before dealing Pujols, a player widely regarded as the best in the sport.

Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro flatly denied that the internal discussions have taken place. "Lies," he said. "That's a lie. I don't know who you're talking to, but that's a lie."

Here's the public relations kicker: Howard was born in St. Louis, and is regarded as a hometown kid in that city.

Howard is under contract for each of the next two seasons as well -- for $19 million in 2010 and $20 million in 2011 -- as part of a three-year deal he signed last year. He would be more expensive than Pujols in each of the next two seasons, but on the other hand, he probably will not be as expensive to sign as Pujols in his next contract.

link

 

[Mr. Retukes]

"I'll take your answer off the air..."

 

[whoknew]

Why would STL do that?

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Mods> please delete

 

[Oh Yes!]

pujols is the jordan of st louis.

 

[IDrinkyourMilkshake]

This is what happens when you lose an hour of sleep.

 

[SHIZNITTTT]

? doesn't make sense ?

 

[Rebirtha]

Worst. Thread. Ever.

 

[IDrinkyourMilkshake]

pujols is the jordan of st louis.

Both are pujols.

 

[bweiser]

i am not as concerned about losing the hour of sleep last night as i am losing the 2 minutes i have spent in this thread.

albert pujols will be a one-team player in his career.

 

[St. Louis Bob]

 

[Onions]

Why would STL do that?

 

[Finless]

I'm hearing this is all but confirmed at this point.

 

[Oh Yes!]

I'm hearing this is all but confirmed at this point.

your worst nightmare

 

[Limp Ditka]

I'm hearing this is all but confirmed at this point.

Who has the finless moniker and why are they forgetting to use italics?

 

[CrossEyed]

Baseball forum get shut down?

 

[GroveDiesel]

This is actually an ESPN article. Not sure why the OP didn't post the link. And yeah, seems pretty dumb. Lots of "reasons" sited why St. Louis would want the deal (all insane), but not really many good ones for why the Phillies would want this deal long term.

LINK

 

[St. Louis Bob]

Lots of bunched panties.

 

[Ghost Rider]

Why would the Cardinals make this deal? There is no player in MLB right now that any team would trade Pujols for in a straight-up deal. This'll never happen.

 

[IDrinkyourMilkshake]

Pretty sure this was the Cards response

 

[cobalt_27]

Not one of Buster Olney's finer moments here.

 

[Finless]

I'm hearing this is all but confirmed at this point.

your worst nightmare

How the #### did you get my phone number?

 

[Smack Tripper]

Philly would eat Albert alive when the roid news drops.

\

 

[harryhood]

Why would Olney even write this garbage with the following quote?

Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro flatly denied that the internal discussions have taken place. "Lies," he said. "That's a lie. I don't know who you're talking to, but that's a lie."

 

[ScottNorwood]

Why would Olney even write this garbage with the following quote?

Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro flatly denied that the internal discussions have taken place. "Lies," he said. "That's a lie. I don't know who you're talking to, but that's a lie."

 

[harryhood]

Why would Olney even write this garbage with the following quote?

Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro flatly denied that the internal discussions have taken place. "Lies," he said. "That's a lie. I don't know who you're talking to, but that's a lie."

woops - reading comp. way down on a Monday. Still, whats the point of drumming this up now?

 

[fred_1_15301]

There has been a running poll this morning on 610 WIP in Philly and the majority of fans in Philly would not trade Howard straight up for Pujols. Of course, these are also the callers of WIP so not sure this is representative of the sentiment of Philly fans. Pujols is better than Howard in just about every aspect of the game. Also, if the Phillies had a big right-handed stick in the middle of the lineup, they would be absolutely lethal..............

 

[Snotbubbles]

Why would Olney even write this garbage with the following quote?

Phillies general manager Ruben Amaro flatly denied that the internal discussions have taken place. "Lies," he said. "That's a lie. I don't know who you're talking to, but that's a lie."

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20...rtnerId=rss_mlb

Amaro would not address Halladay specifically Wednesday, but asked about the Phillies' chances to land a big-time starting pitcher in a trade, Amaro said, "Is there any way possible? I guess there is. Is there a likelihood of us getting involved in something that's that big? Probably not."

I'm not saying that the Cards would trade Pujols straight up for Howard, but I don't believe Amaro either.

 

[Snotbubbles]

There has been a running poll this morning on 610 WIP in Philly and the majority of fans in Philly would not trade Howard straight up for Pujols. Of course, these are also the callers of WIP so not sure this is representative of the sentiment of Philly fans. Pujols is better than Howard in just about every aspect of the game. Also, if the Phillies had a big right-handed stick in the middle of the lineup, they would be absolutely lethal..............

They already are lethal.

 

[Wrigley]

I really can't belive this thread reached 30 posts.

 

[Ghost Rider]

There has been a running poll this morning on 610 WIP in Philly and the majority of fans in Philly would not trade Howard straight up for Pujols. Of course, these are also the callers of WIP so not sure this is representative of the sentiment of Philly fans. Pujols is better than Howard in just about every aspect of the game. Also, if the Phillies had a big right-handed stick in the middle of the lineup, they would be absolutely lethal..............

The majority of Philly fans are clearly not very bright...but I think most of us knew that already.

 

[Meat]

There has been a running poll this morning on 610 WIP in Philly and the majority of fans in Philly would not trade Howard straight up for Pujols. Of course, these are also the callers of WIP so not sure this is representative of the sentiment of Philly fans. Pujols is better than Howard in just about every aspect of the game. Also, if the Phillies had a big right-handed stick in the middle of the lineup, they would be absolutely lethal..............

The majority of Philly fans are clearly not very bright...but I think most of us knew that already.

I live in Philly and am a Phillies fan -- when I heard this rumor I practically started drooling. Talked to a bunch of my buddies about it this morning and every single one said they would NOT trade Howard straight up for Pujols. These are DIE HARD Phillies/baseball fans.

Embarrassing.

 

[fred_1_15301]

There has been a running poll this morning on 610 WIP in Philly and the majority of fans in Philly would not trade Howard straight up for Pujols. Of course, these are also the callers of WIP so not sure this is representative of the sentiment of Philly fans. Pujols is better than Howard in just about every aspect of the game. Also, if the Phillies had a big right-handed stick in the middle of the lineup, they would be absolutely lethal..............

They already are lethal.

They would be even more lethal.......

 

[Domination]

There has been a running poll this morning on 610 WIP in Philly and the majority of fans in Philly would not trade Howard straight up for Pujols. Of course, these are also the callers of WIP so not sure this is representative of the sentiment of Philly fans. Pujols is better than Howard in just about every aspect of the game. Also, if the Phillies had a big right-handed stick in the middle of the lineup, they would be absolutely lethal..............

The majority of Philly fans are clearly not very bright...but I think most of us knew that already.

I am a long time Phillies fan and I can say that I would be in favor of this deal. But in reference to the fans in Philly, I think that things are different in baseball than in some of the other sports. Due to no salary cap, teams are often able to keep their core players together. Unlike other sports where they might not be able to afford to keep them. Therefore I believe that fans become attached to their respective stars, and have a tendency to overvalue them. That being said, I can say that Pujols is probably the ONLY player that I would tradwe Howard straight up for in a deal. Feel free to disagree, but name one other player that has a 3 year average of.... .266 Avg...101 R...47 HR...141 RBIs. He might not be Pujols, but you can't replace those numbers with just anybody.

 

[fred_1_15301]

There has been a running poll this morning on 610 WIP in Philly and the majority of fans in Philly would not trade Howard straight up for Pujols. Of course, these are also the callers of WIP so not sure this is representative of the sentiment of Philly fans. Pujols is better than Howard in just about every aspect of the game. Also, if the Phillies had a big right-handed stick in the middle of the lineup, they would be absolutely lethal..............

The majority of Philly fans are clearly not very bright...but I think most of us knew that already.

I am a long time Phillies fan and I can say that I would be in favor of this deal. But in reference to the fans in Philly, I think that things are different in baseball than in some of the other sports. Due to no salary cap, teams are often able to keep their core players together. Unlike other sports where they might not be able to afford to keep them. Therefore I believe that fans become attached to their respective stars, and have a tendency to overvalue them. That being said, I can say that Pujols is probably the ONLY player that I would tradwe Howard straight up for in a deal. Feel free to disagree, but name one other player that has a 3 year average of.... .266 Avg...101 R...47 HR...141 RBIs. He might not be Pujols, but you can't replace those numbers with just anybody.

Just off of the top of my head, guys that I would strongly consider trading Howard straight up for are Hanley, ARod, Teixiera, Mauer, Johan Santana, Halladay (I know they're teammates now). Howard is awesome but he's still a liability on defense and on the base path. Regardless, the Phillies would be crazy to not make the deal for Pujols straight up.

 

[Consigliere]

There has been a running poll this morning on 610 WIP in Philly and the majority of fans in Philly would not trade Howard straight up for Pujols. Of course, these are also the callers of WIP so not sure this is representative of the sentiment of Philly fans. Pujols is better than Howard in just about every aspect of the game. Also, if the Phillies had a big right-handed stick in the middle of the lineup, they would be absolutely lethal..............

The majority of Philly fans are clearly not very bright...but I think most of us knew that already.

I am a long time Phillies fan and I can say that I would be in favor of this deal. But in reference to the fans in Philly, I think that things are different in baseball than in some of the other sports. Due to no salary cap, teams are often able to keep their core players together. Unlike other sports where they might not be able to afford to keep them. Therefore I believe that fans become attached to their respective stars, and have a tendency to overvalue them. That being said, I can say that Pujols is probably the ONLY player that I would tradwe Howard straight up for in a deal. Feel free to disagree, but name one other player that has a 3 year average of.... .266 Avg...101 R...47 HR...141 RBIs. He might not be Pujols, but you can't replace those numbers with just anybody.

Just off of the top of my head, guys that I would strongly consider trading Howard straight up for are Hanley, ARod, Teixiera, Mauer, Johan Santana, Halladay (I know they're teammates now). Howard is awesome but he's still a liability on defense and on the base path. Regardless, the Phillies would be crazy to not make the deal for Pujols straight up.

He really isn't anymore. He's improved light years since he first came up, unfortunately he has this tag associated with him. But watching him everyday, he's 10x the defensive player he was 5 years ago.

 

[the moops]

Over the past 3 years, there are 9 players who have more runs created and 19 players with a higher OPS+.

Ryan Howard is a very good baseball player. I would gladly trade him for nearly a dozen other players and not doubt that decision for a second.

 

[Domination]

Over the past 3 years, there are 9 players who have more runs created and 19 players with a higher OPS+.Ryan Howard is a very good baseball player. I would gladly trade him for nearly a dozen other players and not doubt that decision for a second.

Runs scored, maybe. But considering he is a cleanup hitter, that doesn't surprise me. OPS, I could understand that also. But considering you are knocking those stats. Can you name how many players have had more HRs or RBIs?Give up? ZeroPujols is a better all around player, but you can't downplay the dominant power numbers that Howard has exhibited over the past few years. If you want to knock his average, fine. But he is the most prolific power hitter in the league.

 

[crewmember]

There was a blog that got attention that was talking about Phillies trading Howard for prospects next year and resigning Werth. Then they would move Utley to 1st and Polanco to 2nd and fill in an average 3rd baseman through the trade or signing. All that win above replacement jargon and all...

http://crashburnalley.com/2010/02/25/why-a...de-makes-sense/

 

[fred_1_15301]

There has been a running poll this morning on 610 WIP in Philly and the majority of fans in Philly would not trade Howard straight up for Pujols. Of course, these are also the callers of WIP so not sure this is representative of the sentiment of Philly fans. Pujols is better than Howard in just about every aspect of the game. Also, if the Phillies had a big right-handed stick in the middle of the lineup, they would be absolutely lethal..............

The majority of Philly fans are clearly not very bright...but I think most of us knew that already.

I am a long time Phillies fan and I can say that I would be in favor of this deal. But in reference to the fans in Philly, I think that things are different in baseball than in some of the other sports. Due to no salary cap, teams are often able to keep their core players together. Unlike other sports where they might not be able to afford to keep them. Therefore I believe that fans become attached to their respective stars, and have a tendency to overvalue them. That being said, I can say that Pujols is probably the ONLY player that I would tradwe Howard straight up for in a deal. Feel free to disagree, but name one other player that has a 3 year average of.... .266 Avg...101 R...47 HR...141 RBIs. He might not be Pujols, but you can't replace those numbers with just anybody.

Just off of the top of my head, guys that I would strongly consider trading Howard straight up for are Hanley, ARod, Teixiera, Mauer, Johan Santana, Halladay (I know they're teammates now). Howard is awesome but he's still a liability on defense and on the base path. Regardless, the Phillies would be crazy to not make the deal for Pujols straight up.

He really isn't anymore. He's improved light years since he first came up, unfortunately he has this tag associated with him. But watching him everyday, he's 10x the defensive player he was 5 years ago.

You're right.....he has improved tremendously. I still would consider him as an "average" fielding first basemen. Pujols is well above average defensively and offensively. Another thing that I forgot to mention about Howard is that he still struggles against left handed pitching. I think Howard is a very good player and maybe even the best pure power hitter in the game. I just think that he's a little overrated here in Philly.

 

[pollardsvision]

Over the past 3 years, there are 9 players who have more runs created and 19 players with a higher OPS+.

Ryan Howard is a very good baseball player. I would gladly trade him for nearly a dozen other players and not doubt that decision for a second.

Runs scored, maybe. But considering he is a cleanup hitter, that doesn't surprise me. OPS, I could understand that also. But considering you are knocking those stats. Can you name how many players have had more HRs or RBIs?Give up? Zero

Pujols is a better all around player, but you can't downplay the dominant power numbers that Howard has exhibited over the past few years. If you want to knock his average, fine. But he is the most prolific power hitter in the league.

I believe he's referring to runs created, which factors in RBI. I believe it's just R + RBI -HR. I agree with you though. Pujols is a better player, but Howard is a great (and slightly better) power stick.

I'd still give Howard to get Pujols in a heartbeat.

 

[pollardsvision]

I know this thread is only for scoffing at the notion that Pujols could ever get traded.

Would someone humor me with answers to a couple of questions though:

1- What sort of contract will Pujols demand when he becomes a FA in 2 years?

2- Will/can the Cardinals pay it?

MLB is a league that considers Minneapolis/St. Paul and Dallas to be "small markets", so I get confused about who can afford what.

StL is wonderful baseball city and the team has shown a willingness to spend money, but will they match a Godfather offer?

The Mets, Cubs, and Red Sox will all have a major, major need at 1B and alot more money to spend than the Cards.

I'm not sure why we'd assume that Pujols will be a Cardinal for life.

 

[igbomb]

I know this thread is only for scoffing at the notion that Pujols could ever get traded.Would someone humor me with answers to a couple of questions though:1- What sort of contract will Pujols demand when he becomes a FA in 2 years?2- Will/can the Cardinals pay it?MLB is a league that considers Minneapolis/St. Paul and Dallas to be "small markets", so I get confused about who can afford what.StL is wonderful baseball city and the team has shown a willingness to spend money, but will they match a Godfather offer? The Mets, Cubs, and Red Sox will all have a major, major need at 1B and alot more money to spend than the Cards.I'm not sure why we'd assume that Pujols will be a Cardinal for life.

I think it's fair to question whether Pujols will be a Card for life. But trading him for Howard is not what the Cardinals would do.Howard is older and based on his style of play is more likely to decline faster. Plus, he won't be all that much cheaper as his contract situation isn't all that different than Albert's. If the Cards give up on retaining Pujols they will trade him for really good players and great prospects, not a player who is a second-rate version of Albert.

 

[igbomb]

Over the past 3 years, there are 9 players who have more runs created and 19 players with a higher OPS+.Ryan Howard is a very good baseball player. I would gladly trade him for nearly a dozen other players and not doubt that decision for a second.

Runs scored, maybe. But considering he is a cleanup hitter, that doesn't surprise me. OPS, I could understand that also. But considering you are knocking those stats. Can you name how many players have had more HRs or RBIs?Give up? ZeroPujols is a better all around player, but you can't downplay the dominant power numbers that Howard has exhibited over the past few years. If you want to knock his average, fine. But he is the most prolific power hitter in the league.

Howard is a really good homerun hitter. There's no denying that. But RBI's are one of the most useless stats, right up there with wins and saves. Ignoring defense, Howard still wouldn't crack the top 15 players over the last three years. He's simply overrated.

 

[pollardsvision]

I know this thread is only for scoffing at the notion that Pujols could ever get traded.Would someone humor me with answers to a couple of questions though:1- What sort of contract will Pujols demand when he becomes a FA in 2 years?2- Will/can the Cardinals pay it?MLB is a league that considers Minneapolis/St. Paul and Dallas to be "small markets", so I get confused about who can afford what.StL is wonderful baseball city and the team has shown a willingness to spend money, but will they match a Godfather offer? The Mets, Cubs, and Red Sox will all have a major, major need at 1B and alot more money to spend than the Cards.I'm not sure why we'd assume that Pujols will be a Cardinal for life.

I think it's fair to question whether Pujols will be a Card for life. But trading him for Howard is not what the Cardinals would do.Howard is older and based on his style of play is more likely to decline faster. Plus, he won't be all that much cheaper as his contract situation isn't all that different than Albert's. If the Cards give up on retaining Pujols they will trade him for really good players and great prospects, not a player who is a second-rate version of Albert.

I agree with that. A Pujols-Howard trade wouldn't make any sense. If Pujols were to eventually sign elsewhere in free-agency, I'd imagine the Cards would handle it the same way the Cavs handle it with Lebron. Maybe they'll lose him for nothing, but they can't trade him away. Actually, nevermind, let's continue to scoff the notion that Pujols will ever be traded.

 

[thetman]

The Phillies would trade Howard for Pujols.

The Cardinals woudn't trade Pujols for Howard.

ESPN is a joke.

Philly fans are dumb beyond belief.

Were any of those not already crystal clear?????????? I think not.

 

[Mr. Pickles]

Over the past 3 years, there are 9 players who have more runs created and 19 players with a higher OPS+.Ryan Howard is a very good baseball player. I would gladly trade him for nearly a dozen other players and not doubt that decision for a second.

Runs scored, maybe. But considering he is a cleanup hitter, that doesn't surprise me. OPS, I could understand that also. But considering you are knocking those stats. Can you name how many players have had more HRs or RBIs?Give up? ZeroPujols is a better all around player, but you can't downplay the dominant power numbers that Howard has exhibited over the past few years. If you want to knock his average, fine. But he is the most prolific power hitter in the league.

That's great, but prolific power hitters don't help their teams as much if other stats don't measure up as well. Pujols has a career RC/G of 9.9. Howard is at 8.0. That's an enormous spread. Howard has also shown regression in OBP which is pretty alarming.Last year, Pujols posted 10.6 RC/G to Howard's 7.5.Looking deeper, let's consider win shares (which includes defensive contributions):

Rank	 Player			Batting	 Fielding	Pitching	Total1		Albert Pujols 	  36.5		2.6		  -		39.12		Prince Fielder	  34.5		1.2		  -		35.63		Ryan Braun		  33.9		1.7		  -		35.64		Hanley Ramirez	  28.1		6.1		  -		34.25		Adrian Gonzalez	 31.5		2.6		  -		34.06		Chase Utley		 24.6		7.0		  -		31.67		Pablo Sandoval	  23.1		3.8		  -		26.98		Ryan Howard		 24.0		2.5		  -		26.59		Matt Kemp		   19.7		6.3		  -		26.010	   Jayson Werth		21.5 	   4.2		  -		25.811	   Troy Tulowitzki	 16.5		7.6		  -		24.1

Players at first base have less of a defensive impact by definition (unless they are terrible), but we can see that Pujols is slightly better with the glove (albeit probably statistically insignificantly so) and enormously better (as in: not even close) than Howard with the bat.An even cursory glace of the stats show that Pujols is the superior player. He's also the top player in terms of more obscure stats like WAR and WARP, or any other composite statistical measure you could conjure up. Not only is he better than Howard, he's better than any other player in baseball. There is no reasonable argument for Howard over Pujols as it relates to baseball worth.They are essentially the same age (though I have my doubts that Pujols was actually born in 1980). My biggest concern going forward would be Howard's weight. I see a Mo Vaughn/David Ortiz career trajectory which will not end well for Howard. I can see Pujols retaining his skills for a longer period.

 

[ScottNorwood]

can it, poindexter

 

[Mr. Pickles]

can it, poindexter

I will fight you and win.

 

[cobalt_27]

Over the past 3 years, there are 9 players who have more runs created and 19 players with a higher OPS+.Ryan Howard is a very good baseball player. I would gladly trade him for nearly a dozen other players and not doubt that decision for a second.

Runs scored, maybe. But considering he is a cleanup hitter, that doesn't surprise me. OPS, I could understand that also. But considering you are knocking those stats. Can you name how many players have had more HRs or RBIs?Give up? ZeroPujols is a better all around player, but you can't downplay the dominant power numbers that Howard has exhibited over the past few years. If you want to knock his average, fine. But he is the most prolific power hitter in the league.

That's great, but prolific power hitters don't help their teams as much if other stats don't measure up as well. Pujols has a career RC/G of 9.9. Howard is at 8.0. That's an enormous spread. Howard has also shown regression in OBP which is pretty alarming.Last year, Pujols posted 10.6 RC/G to Howard's 7.5.Looking deeper, let's consider win shares (which includes defensive contributions):

Rank	 Player			Batting	 Fielding	Pitching	Total1		Albert Pujols 	  36.5		2.6		  -		39.12		Prince Fielder	  34.5		1.2		  -		35.63		Ryan Braun		  33.9		1.7		  -		35.64		Hanley Ramirez	  28.1		6.1		  -		34.25		Adrian Gonzalez	 31.5		2.6		  -		34.06		Chase Utley		 24.6		7.0		  -		31.67		Pablo Sandoval	  23.1		3.8		  -		26.98		Ryan Howard		 24.0		2.5		  -		26.59		Matt Kemp		   19.7		6.3		  -		26.010	   Jayson Werth		21.5 	   4.2		  -		25.811	   Troy Tulowitzki	 16.5		7.6		  -		24.1

Players at first base have less of a defensive impact by definition (unless they are terrible), but we can see that Pujols is slightly better with the glove (albeit probably statistically insignificantly so) and enormously better (as in: not even close) than Howard with the bat.An even cursory glace of the stats show that Pujols is the superior player. He's also the top player in terms of more obscure stats like WAR and WARP, or any other composite statistical measure you could conjure up. Not only is he better than Howard, he's better than any other player in baseball. There is no reasonable argument for Howard over Pujols as it relates to baseball worth.They are essentially the same age (though I have my doubts that Pujols was actually born in 1980). My biggest concern going forward would be Howard's weight. I see a Mo Vaughn/David Ortiz career trajectory which will not end well for Howard. I can see Pujols retaining his skills for a longer period.

A rather compelling destruction of the theory that Howard is close to the same player as Pujols.Good work. Not like 99% of us didn't already reach this conclusion, but this is about as good an argument as can be made.