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Sanders/Smith Caged Match (1 Viewer)

Bob Magaw

Footballguy
a few questions emerged from a recent thread that exceeded the scope and purview of THAT thread.

listed below... this isn't meant to be a general top 5 thread, but address a few specific issues in their relative place in the top 5 (or beyond?)...

was sanders a "quitter" for going out on top (& if so, was jim brown... for many #1 overall, & with a similar career arc by leaving unexpectedly at the top). do people think less of him for not chasing payton's record, and does it lower his stature relative to smith, as one of the all time greats?

does the fact that smith played longer, though not at as high a level in his last 3-4 seasons, and did get the record, raise him in your estimation, relative to sanders?

does the fact that smith appeared to have a superior supporting cast and surrounding talent to sanders weigh in your final analysis of sanders vs. smith (a lot, a little, not at all)? did smith draw three aces, a full house or a royal flush in his NFL destination hand of cards, and sanders a pair of twos?

prior to that... DID DAL have better OL & skill position players than DET during their respective peak years?

on running style, is sanders thought less of because he didn't always run the play as designed, take the positive yards or whatever was there, and sometimes (often?) got caught for a loss by trying to make something happen/break a long run, putting the offense under pressure. OR, is it accepted that while smith's physical traits and style made him perfectly fitted for DAL, that might not have worked as well with DET's OL, and sanders style was trying to make the best of a bad situation?

is sanders a loser and suffer in the comparison with smith being an integral part of a multiple super bowl dynasty, or is he cut slack for not having comparable talent arrayed around him?

there seem to be different takes. among smith proponents and sanders detractors, some may think that even if they weren't equal during the time they overlapped (roughly for a decade), smith's greater longevity pushes him over the top. others think smith was straight up better during said overlapping years (their respective primes), though by some measures, sanders numbers were better (except of course in wins - which i'm not sure is fair to chalk up to one person, in a sport so consumately a TEAM game as pro football).

* without becoming a top 5 thread, feel free to include your respective rankings of sanders & smith.

for the record, i have sanders at #4 (after brown, dickerson & payton - maybe i should move dickerson down, & payton, & possibly sanders, above him - i think he might have surpassed payton's record if he stayed with the rams?), and smith (who i'm in the process of revising my opinion of) #5 or #6.

 
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Sanders walked away without limping away. All the money (and "loyalty") in the world is not worth going out a cripple.

 
For me it all boils down to this....

Barry:

+Barry was the most exciting, most elusive runner the NFL has ever seen.

- For every highlight run, he just killed his already bad teams chances at sustaining drives by always trying to make somehting happen, instead of just following the design of the play.

Emmitt

+ Durable, powerful runner who had no weaknesses.

- I can't really think of any negatives, unless you want to penalize him for having a great line from 91-96.

Emmitt played much tougher defenses, proved himself in the playoffs, and was a warrior.

Why does Barry's name always have to be mentioned with Emmitt? These are the only two back in the history of the NFL that are always compared to each other.

 
IIRC Sanders' retirement angered so many people because of how he did it. Wasn't it late in the offseason and without much explanation except that he was tired of losing? It had more of a "quitting" tone rather than a retirement tone.

 
Why does Barry's name always have to be mentioned with Emmitt? These are the only two back in the history of the NFL that are always compared to each other.
good question... well, in this case, as i noted, i found some, for me, lingering and unanswered questions from another thread on this specific issue.i would add to that... of the other top 5 RBs, are they ones that most overlapped in their peak (and played 10 or more years)? they were also compared a lot at the time, so i don't see why it would be any different now. as contemporaries, easier to compare them, since they faced athletes from the approx. identical era (sanders entered NFL one year earlier).brown is by himself in his time... next came OJ (some count sayers, most don't for injury-shortened career)... payton & dickerson overlapped some, but not to same degree as sanders/smith (?)*... earl campbell was around that time, but he only played at a high level for 5-6 seasons (?), and is excluded from top 5 for that reason. maybe precisely BECAUSE (not in spite) of their greatly different styles, they are more interesting to compare than two runners with more similar styles.* not that much... payton ('75-'87) & dickerson ('83-'93)... and sanders/smith "rivalry" (at least among respective proponents/detractors) is closer to us in time, so easier to remember & comment on? campbell ('78-'85 - overlapping with the "middle" of payton's career, starting three years after payton and done a few years earlier) was great in five of his first six years, but had only one good season in his last six. after missing just two games in his first four seasons, in the last six years he MISSED 7, 2, 2,10, 8 & 0 games (total of 29, nearly two seasons worth).
 
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IIRC Sanders' retirement angered so many people because of how he did it. Wasn't it late in the offseason and without much explanation except that he was tired of losing? It had more of a "quitting" tone rather than a retirement tone.
good point (brown may have "quit" under similar circumstances)... sanders was like brown in retiring "prematurely" for the liking of some, but clearly on top. don't remember the exact details and timing for those events with sanders, i remember it more for being kind of inexplicable (maybe he just wanted to walk normally, or got tired of losing?), and a sense of mystery about the reasons compounded by his unwillingness to discuss it for a long time. is kurt warner similar? he is older, but 30 is "old" for a RB, especially then. he did have his best season (2,000 yards) the year before he retired, and about 1,400 rushing yards (though just 3 TDs i think) his last year, but was playing at a generally high level.warner was playing at a high level (unlike sanders, & brown, he had a donut in the middle of his career, as peter king referred to it :lol: )... i don't think leaving the way he has tarnished his legacy, or he is perceived in any way as a "quitter". obviously the same could be said if favre retires, nobody will think less of him, coming off one of his best seaosns... in his case, he is really old by ANY standard! :lmao:
 
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a few questions emerged from a recent thread that exceeded the scope and purview of THAT thread.

listed below... this isn't meant to be a general top 5 thread, but address a few specific issues in their relative place in the top 5 (or beyond?)...

was sanders a "quitter" for going out on top (& if so, was jim brown... for many #1 overall, & with a similar career arc by leaving unexpectedly at the top). do people think less of him for not chasing payton's record, and does it lower his stature relative to smith, as one of the all time greats?

I never considered Sanders (or Jim Brown) a quitter. Barry worked at his job as long as he wanted to, then moved on. It doesn't lower his stature one bit. He didn't have a contract with the Lions to set records, he was paid to play football. Barring injury, I think it was inevitable that Sanders would have broken the record, had he kept playing. But he decided enough was enough and apparently didn't care about the record. It doesn't have an effect on his skill level.

does the fact that smith played longer, though not at as high a level in his last 3-4 seasons, and did get the record, raise him in your estimation, relative to sanders?

Smith kept playing (his choice, just a valid as Sanders) and was good enough for long enough to set a new record. It doesn't change my opinion of the skills or abilities of either player.

does the fact that smith appeared to have a superior supporting cast and surrounding talent to sanders weigh in your final analysis of sanders vs. smith (a lot, a little, not at all)?

I think Barry's stats are slightly more impressive in light of the teams he played with, but I don't think he would have had substantially better stats (or Smith have substantially worse stats) if they switched teams.

there seem to be different takes. among smith proponents and sanders detractors, some may think that even if they weren't equal during the time they overlapped (roughly for a decade), smith's greater longevity pushes him over the top. others think smith was straight up better during said overlapping years (their respective primes), though by some measures, sanders numbers were better (except of course in wins - which i'm not sure is fair to chalk up to one person, in a sport so consumately a TEAM game as pro football).

I think both players were roughly equal in talent, though they had different styles. I don't think wins can be included in a comparison of football players because it takes a good team to win games. I think the Cowboys would have had about the same success (and the Lions the same, well, averageness?) if their teams were reversed.
 
a few questions emerged from a recent thread that exceeded the scope and purview of THAT thread.

listed below... this isn't meant to be a general top 5 thread, but address a few specific issues in their relative place in the top 5 (or beyond?)...

was sanders a "quitter" for going out on top (& if so, was jim brown... for many #1 overall, & with a similar career arc by leaving unexpectedly at the top). do people think less of him for not chasing payton's record, and does it lower his stature relative to smith, as one of the all time greats?

I never considered Sanders (or Jim Brown) a quitter. Barry worked at his job as long as he wanted to, then moved on. It doesn't lower his stature one bit. He didn't have a contract with the Lions to set records, he was paid to play football. Barring injury, I think it was inevitable that Sanders would have broken the record, had he kept playing. But he decided enough was enough and apparently didn't care about the record. It doesn't have an effect on his skill level.

does the fact that smith played longer, though not at as high a level in his last 3-4 seasons, and did get the record, raise him in your estimation, relative to sanders?

Smith kept playing (his choice, just a valid as Sanders) and was good enough for long enough to set a new record. It doesn't change my opinion of the skills or abilities of either player.

does the fact that smith appeared to have a superior supporting cast and surrounding talent to sanders weigh in your final analysis of sanders vs. smith (a lot, a little, not at all)?

I think Barry's stats are slightly more impressive in light of the teams he played with, but I don't think he would have had substantially better stats (or Smith have substantially worse stats) if they switched teams.

there seem to be different takes. among smith proponents and sanders detractors, some may think that even if they weren't equal during the time they overlapped (roughly for a decade), smith's greater longevity pushes him over the top. others think smith was straight up better during said overlapping years (their respective primes), though by some measures, sanders numbers were better (except of course in wins - which i'm not sure is fair to chalk up to one person, in a sport so consumately a TEAM game as pro football).

I think both players were roughly equal in talent, though they had different styles. I don't think wins can be included in a comparison of football players because it takes a good team to win games. I think the Cowboys would have had about the same success (and the Lions the same, well, averageness?) if their teams were reversed.
good post, that gives about equal credit to both runners (as it probably belongs)...
 
Why does Barry's name always have to be mentioned with Emmitt? These are the only two back in the history of the NFL that are always compared to each other.
I think the comparison is quite valid. Both played in the same era, both are considered top 5 all time RBs, and both are the only guys in the last 20 or so years that had a shot at Payton's record, despite vastly different styles. Because both players got their stats in vastly different ways, it makes the comparison much more intersing IMO.eta: avoiding grammar police
 
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DID DAL have better OL & skill position players than DET during their respective peak years?
In the other thread I looked up 1993 when Emmitt held out to start the season. Dallas' replacement RB's averaged 74 yards a game and 3.7 YPC in his absence. Emmitt returned and ran for 106 yards a game at a 5.3 YPC clip. Dallas went 12-2 and on to win the SB. BTW, he was the only RB on the team to have a YPC above 4.0 that year.That same season, Sanders missed the last five games. He averaged 4.6 YPC and 101 yards a game rushing. For three weeks Derrick Moore replaced him and put up an identical 4.6 YPC and 86 yards rushing per game. The last two weeks of the season some guy named Lynch started at RB and averaged 100 yards a game on the ground.To their credit neither guy missed a lot of time after that, so I didn't really delve into any other seasons.
 
For me it all boils down to this....

Barry:

+Barry was the most exciting, most elusive runner the NFL has ever seen.

- For every highlight run, he just killed his already bad teams chances at sustaining drives by always trying to make somehting happen, instead of just following the design of the play.

Emmitt

+ Durable, powerful runner who had no weaknesses.

- I can't really think of any negatives, unless you want to penalize him for having a great line from 91-96.

Emmitt played much tougher defenses, proved himself in the playoffs, and was a warrior.

Why does Barry's name always have to be mentioned with Emmitt? These are the only two back in the history of the NFL that are always compared to each other.
A good majority of those plays had to due with the fact they Sanders almost never had a fullback, and frequently had someone in the backfield with him by the time he got the ball.
 
For me it all boils down to this....

Barry:

+Barry was the most exciting, most elusive runner the NFL has ever seen.

- For every highlight run, he just killed his already bad teams chances at sustaining drives by always trying to make somehting happen, instead of just following the design of the play.

Emmitt

+ Durable, powerful runner who had no weaknesses.

- I can't really think of any negatives, unless you want to penalize him for having a great line from 91-96.

Emmitt played much tougher defenses, proved himself in the playoffs, and was a warrior.

Why does Barry's name always have to be mentioned with Emmitt? These are the only two back in the history of the NFL that are always compared to each other.
A good majority of those plays had to due with the fact they Sanders almost never had a fullback, and frequently had someone in the backfield with him by the time he got the ball.
was his 2,000 yard season (second to last) his first with a blocking full back (after fontes was fired - with bobby ross)?makes you wonder what he might have done if he had a blocking FB his whole career... though, for many years, conventional wisdom had it that a blocking fullback would just get in his way, & impede his unparalleled improvisational skills.

i didn't give enough credit to daryl johnston in the other thread. taking nothing away from emmitt, but he was a GREAT blocking FB, one of the best in his era... novacek was decent, not sure if great as a blocker for a TE, deservedly better known as a receiving weapon, and maybe aikman's second favorite in crunch time, after irvin. was novacek a decathlete?

* ported from other thread... i thought it was interesting to see what they did pre-NFL... smith was great, i forgot somewhat how spectacular sanders was. they certainly graded out differently in their drafts, as to how scouts viewed their respective talent at the time (sanders #3 overall, smith around #20?)...

from wiki...

"In 1988, in what has been called the greatest season in college football history,[1] Sanders led the nation by averaging 7.6 yards per carry and over 200 yards per game, including rushing for over 300 yards in four games. He set college football season records with 2,628 yards rushing, 3,249 total yards, 234 points, 39 touchdowns, of which 37 were rushing (also a record), 5 consecutive 200 yard games, scored at least 2 touchdowns in 11 consecutive games, and 9 times he scored at least 3 touchdowns. Sanders also ran for 222 yards and scored 5 touchdowns in his three quarters of action in the Holiday Bowl - a game that was not included with his season statistics.[2] Sanders won the Heisman Trophy as the season's most outstanding player.[3] However, he left Oklahoma State before his senior season to enter the NFL draft."

my comment - to put the 37 rushing TDs into perspective... emmitt set the florida school record with 36... IN THREE SEASONS! emmitt was injured as a soph, missed about four games and fell short of 1,000 yards. but he set the school freshman record with about 1,300 yards, and was a yard shy of 1,600 as a junior (breaking another school record - he also skipped senior year)... sanders 2,600+ were nearly as much as smith's two best college seasons COMBINED.

 
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DID DAL have better OL & skill position players than DET during their respective peak years?
In the other thread I looked up 1993 when Emmitt held out to start the season. Dallas' replacement RB's averaged 74 yards a game and 3.7 YPC in his absence. Emmitt returned and ran for 106 yards a game at a 5.3 YPC clip. Dallas went 12-2 and on to win the SB. BTW, he was the only RB on the team to have a YPC above 4.0 that year.That same season, Sanders missed the last five games. He averaged 4.6 YPC and 101 yards a game rushing. For three weeks Derrick Moore replaced him and put up an identical 4.6 YPC and 86 yards rushing per game. The last two weeks of the season some guy named Lynch started at RB and averaged 100 yards a game on the ground.To their credit neither guy missed a lot of time after that, so I didn't really delve into any other seasons.
interesting and suggestive find, thanks for taking the time to research & post that...
 
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Sanders played from 1989 to 1998. Emmitt played from 1990 to 2004. The fact that they were both among the best ever RBs and started their careers one year apart is why they are always compared.

1st 10 seasons

So, first let's look at how Emmitt's first 10 seasons compared to Barry's 10 seasons. Regular season statistics:

Barry (1989-1998): 153 games; 3062/15269/99 rushing (4.99 ypc, 99.8 ypg); 352/2921/10 receiving (8.3 ypr); 18190 YFS; 109 total TDs; 41 fumbles

Emmitt (1990-1999): 155 games; 3243/13963/136 rushing (4.31 ypc, 90.1 ypg); 442/2728/11 receiving (6.2 ypr); 16691 YFS; 147 total TDs; 45 fumbles

Rushing yardage

Sanders was clearly a better runner. He was much better in ypc and consequently ended up with 1306 more rushing yards in 2 fewer games and 181 fewer carries... that is a very impressive advantage for Sanders. And it doesn't even factor in the fact that Smith played on a better team with better offensive teammates and better defenses... the better offenses presumably made it easier for Smith to perform well, and the better defenses were likely largely responsible for the extra carries Emmitt got in comparison to Sanders... without those extra carries, the results in this category would have been even more lopsided.

Big edge to Sanders.

Rushing TDs

Clearly Smith had a huge edge in rushing TDs. Some of the difference could be explained by the advantages cited above (i.e., better teammates), but not a disparity of 37 rushing TDs. Clearly, Smith had a nose for the end zone and was an excellent goal line back. As we know, Sanders was pulled at the goal line a fair amount in his career.

Big edge to Smith.

Receiving

Smith had 90 more receptions, yet Sanders had more receiving yards and almost as many TDs. Once again, Sanders was more productive with his opportunities, again underlining that Sanders is a better runner. Given that Emmitt had the 90 additional receptions, and given I don't know anything about their catch percentages, targets, drops, etc., I'm not sure it's fair to say Sanders was a better receiver, though it certainly seems that way... regardless, we know he did more with the ball once he caught it.

Small edge to Sanders.

Blocking

Not sure how to measure this objectively, but I recall Smith being known as a good pass blocker and Sanders being viewed as average to below average. However, I don't think this was as big a factor as other things.

Small edge to Smith.

Durability/Toughness

I think Emmitt is known for his toughness. I don't recall it being viewed as strongly as a positive for Sanders as for Smith, but the fact remains that Sanders played in 153 games, compared to Smith's 155.

Wash.

** Update **

Up to this point, I'd give Sanders a slight edge, since I think rushing yardage trumps the other categories, but it's very close thanks to Emmitt's huge edge in TDs.

Situations

Emmitt played with the following Pro Bowl offensive teammates: Troy Aikman (6), Michael Irvin (5), Jay Novacek (5), Daryl Johnston (2), Nate Newton (6), Mark Stepnoski (3), Erik Williams (4), Mark Tuinei (2), Ray Donaldson (2), Larry Allen (5). That's 40 Pro Bowl teammates in 10 seasons, including 24 run blockers (OL & FB). Plus, Emmitt played his first 5 seasons for Jimmy Johnson, a great coach. Emmitt's teams also finished in the top 10 in yards allowed in 8 of those 10 seasons and in the top 10 in points allowed in 7 of those 10 seasons, which presumably gave him more opportunities.

Meanwhile, Sanders played with the following Pro Bowl offensive teammates: Lomas Brown (6), Herman Moore (4), Kevin Glover (3). That's 13 Pro Bowl teammates in 10 seasons, including 9 run blockers. Sanders never played for a coach as good as Jimmy Johnson. His teams finished in the top 10 in yards allowed and points allowed just once each in his 10 seasons.

This is a huge disparity. We could get into comparisons of All Pro teammates and HOF teammates, and they would show a similar disparity.

This factor is often stated as Emmitt having a better OL, but, in reality, Emmitt had better coaching, better OL, better passing game, better defense... heck, without looking into it, I wouldn't be surprised if his teams had better special teams, too.

Big edge to Sanders.

Honors/Awards

This category reflects how they were viewed in comparison to their peers. Obviously, this is important to this comparison, since they were peers to each other.

Emmitt:

1990 NFL AP Offensive Rookie of the Year

1992 NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc. MVP

1993 NFL AP MVP

1993 NFL PFWA MVP

1993 NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc. MVP

1993 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)

1993 NFL Super Bowl MVP

4 1st team AP All Pro selections

1 2nd team AP All Pro selection

8 Pro Bowl selections

Barry:

1989 NFL AP Offensive Rookie of the Year

1991 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)

1994 NFL AP Offensive Player of the Year

1997 NFL AP MVP

1997 NFL PFWA MVP

1997 NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc. MVP

1997 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)

1997 NFL AP Offensive Player of the Year

6 1st team AP All Pro selections

4 2nd team AP All Pro selections

10 Pro Bowl selections

It looks close, with a small edge to Sanders until you reach the All Pro selections, where Sanders doubled up Smith, which is extremely impressive. Sanders was no worse than 2nd team All Pro in every single season of his career... I wonder if any other player can say that. Obviously, voters thought Sanders was significantly better.

Big edge to Sanders.

Emmitt's extra 5 seasons

Emmitt holds the records he has because he played 5 more years than Sanders. There is no reason to believe Sanders wouldn't have continued to outperform Smith into their declining years, particularly given how strong their respective 10th seasons were... but the fact is that Emmitt played on and Sanders didn't. Here are the numbers in those 5 seasons:

71 games; 1166/4392/28 rushing (3.77 ypc, 61.9 ypg); 73/496/0 receiving (6.8 ypr); 4888 YFS; 28 total TDs; 16 fumbles

On the one hand, there is no doubt Emmitt provided value to his teams over this period, or he wouldn't have gotten those 1200+ additional touches. So there must be some positive value in that. However, his effectiveness dropped off sharply, and he did not make the Pro Bowl or earn any other notable honors during those 5 years, so the value is limited.

Small extra credit edge to Emmitt.

** Update **

At this point, IMO Sanders has a huge lead over Smith.

Postseason

There really is no comparison here:

Emmitt: 17 games; 349/1586/19 rushing (4.54 ypc, 93.3 ypg); 46/342/2 receiving (7.4 ypr); 1928 YFS; 21 total TDs; 3 championships; 1 Super Bowl MVP

Barry: 6 games; 91/386/1 rushing (4.24 ypc, ); 21/111/0 receiving (5.3 ypr); 497 YFS; 1 total TD; 0 championships

Though it isn't Barry's fault he didn't have more opportunities, the fact is that his performance regressed in the postseason, while Emmitt's improved.

Big edge to Smith.

Conclusion

All things considered, it is close. But I don't see how Emmitt's postseason accomplishments make up for the substantial edge Sanders had when everything else was considered. Especially considering that the supporting cast issue applies to postseason just as much as it does to regular season (to state the obvious).

So: Barry > Emmitt

:goodposting:

 
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Extremely good posting Just Win Baby.

I might be the biggest Emmitt Smith fan there is. There is no doubt, Barry Sanders was far more talented then Emmitt Smith. Barry Sanders was a better runner then Emmitt. He was much more elusive. He was simple the single best player in the open field then anybody else. He was like Dante "The human Joystick" Hall, for his entire career. He played on a far inferior team. I what might be the most glaring coaching blunder/debacle in the history if sports, his coaches took him out on the goaline.

With all that being said, I would take a running back like Emmitt every single time. He was everything you want from a back. He had extraordinary vision, which is what served him well after Johnston retired. Robert Thomas (who replaced Moose) may have been the single worst blocking FB that has ever graced the Earth. I guarantee every single play you will ever see with him on the field, he completely misses his block.

Power - Emmitt.

Elusiveness - Barry, no doubt.

Vision - Toss up. Barry was sick, but his quickness was the best bar none, Emmitt's best trait might be his vision, which allowed him ti dance and weave for positive yards.

Speed - Allegedly Barry was faster. Funny, Barry was ALWAYS caught form behind, while Emmitt was rarely. Emmitt.

Quickness - Barry "look at the run vs the Patriots where the guy turned around 18 times during a single run" Sanders.

Blocking - Ninja please, Emmitt

Catching - When Jimmy left, they stopped throwing to Emmitt. Barry being the better open field runner gets the edge, however I think Emmitt had better hands.

Clutch - Emmit M;f'n Smith.

During Emmitt's first few years, he completely blew everything out of the water. Yes he had a great line, and HOF caliber players on his side of the ball. Yes, the defense was continually ranked in the top 1-10. From 1991-1995 the Cowboys were dominant. The 96 team was poor offensively, and that's about where you can start to see what kind of back he was. Given the great opportunities proved by his fellow teammates, he did what he was supposed to do. He produced, at astronomical levels, before free agency. Before the diluted teams of this era. In the NFC east. He had the playoff success. He has the rings, he has the Giants game. Like in high school, like in college, he produced.

Durability - As Chase Stuart posted in the LT thread, Emmitt also produced on bad teams. (Read Part II) Everybody wants to talk about Emmitt's great line and team, fortunately, his career spans a long time, and he was able to produce great numbers, on poor teams, at an advanced age for RB's. - conclusion, Emmitt.

Considering Barry's far inferior teams, he would have benefited them greatly, if he would have just gotten the 1-2 yards instead of trying for the home run and netting a 4 yard loss. His teams were not capable of recovering from that. A true team player would recognize that. Why is he not penelized for it.One would argue that the Cowboys, while talented, relied heavily on Smitth's positive, move the chains production. His uncanny ability to gain positive yards benifited his teams greats, and turned those patented Aikman to Irvin 3rd & slants into 3rd & 7, instead of 3rd & 11.

Barry was the more talented back. Emmitt was the guy who brought his hard hat. It's almost identical to Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russel.

You take the guy who is more fun to watch, I'll take the guy who actually did it. Neither one of us are wrong, however, don't be shocked if my team ends up with more championships, while you implode the highlight reel. You play hwat if, I'll take what actually happened.

I'm tired, and slightly buzzed, I'll save the rest for later.

PS - Barry wasn't a quitter, and I don't blame him for leaving early cause his franchise is a joke. Just like you Barry fanatics shouldn't penalize Emmit for his opportunity.

 
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a few questions emerged from a recent thread that exceeded the scope and purview of THAT thread.

listed below... this isn't meant to be a general top 5 thread, but address a few specific issues in their relative place in the top 5 (or beyond?)...

was sanders a "quitter" for going out on top (& if so, was jim brown... for many #1 overall, & with a similar career arc by leaving unexpectedly at the top). do people think less of him for not chasing payton's record, and does it lower his stature relative to smith, as one of the all time greats?

I never considered Sanders (or Jim Brown) a quitter. Barry worked at his job as long as he wanted to, then moved on. It doesn't lower his stature one bit. He didn't have a contract with the Lions to set records, he was paid to play football. Barring injury, I think it was inevitable that Sanders would have broken the record, had he kept playing. But he decided enough was enough and apparently didn't care about the record. It doesn't have an effect on his skill level.

does the fact that smith played longer, though not at as high a level in his last 3-4 seasons, and did get the record, raise him in your estimation, relative to sanders?

Smith kept playing (his choice, just a valid as Sanders) and was good enough for long enough to set a new record. It doesn't change my opinion of the skills or abilities of either player.

does the fact that smith appeared to have a superior supporting cast and surrounding talent to sanders weigh in your final analysis of sanders vs. smith (a lot, a little, not at all)?

I think Barry's stats are slightly more impressive in light of the teams he played with, but I don't think he would have had substantially better stats (or Smith have substantially worse stats) if they switched teams.

there seem to be different takes. among smith proponents and sanders detractors, some may think that even if they weren't equal during the time they overlapped (roughly for a decade), smith's greater longevity pushes him over the top. others think smith was straight up better during said overlapping years (their respective primes), though by some measures, sanders numbers were better (except of course in wins - which i'm not sure is fair to chalk up to one person, in a sport so consumately a TEAM game as pro football).

I think both players were roughly equal in talent, though they had different styles. I don't think wins can be included in a comparison of football players because it takes a good team to win games. I think the Cowboys would have had about the same success (and the Lions the same, well, averageness?) if their teams were reversed.
:goodposting:
 
Came back, because this bothere dme. I have seen a lto fo people write that Emmitt hung on to get the record. He was still playing at a good level when he got the record. Only after he gor the record, did Parcels run him out of town.

And don't get me started on that. Had Parcels not ousted Emmitt, he would have had some very good sucess.

 
Just Win Baby said:
Sanders played from 1989 to 1998. Emmitt played from 1990 to 2004. The fact that they were both among the best ever RBs and started their careers one year apart is why they are always compared.

1st 10 seasons

So, first let's look at how Emmitt's first 10 seasons compared to Barry's 10 seasons. Regular season statistics:

Barry (1989-1998): 153 games; 3062/15269/99 rushing (4.99 ypc, 99.8 ypg); 352/2921/10 receiving (8.3 ypr); 18190 YFS; 109 total TDs; 41 fumbles

Emmitt (1990-1999): 155 games; 3243/13963/136 rushing (4.31 ypc, 90.1 ypg); 442/2728/11 receiving (6.2 ypr); 16691 YFS; 147 total TDs; 45 fumbles

Rushing yardage

Sanders was clearly a better runner. He was much better in ypc and consequently ended up with 1306 more rushing yards in 2 fewer games and 181 fewer carries... that is a very impressive advantage for Sanders. And it doesn't even factor in the fact that Smith played on a better team with better offensive teammates and better defenses... the better offenses presumably made it easier for Smith to perform well, and the better defenses were likely largely responsible for the extra carries Emmitt got in comparison to Sanders... without those extra carries, the results in this category would have been even more lopsided.

Big edge to Sanders.

Rushing TDs

Clearly Smith had a huge edge in rushing TDs. Some of the difference could be explained by the advantages cited above (i.e., better teammates), but not a disparity of 37 rushing TDs. Clearly, Smith had a nose for the end zone and was an excellent goal line back. As we know, Sanders was pulled at the goal line a fair amount in his career.

Big edge to Smith.

Receiving

Smith had 90 more receptions, yet Sanders had more receiving yards and almost as many TDs. Once again, Sanders was more productive with his opportunities, again underlining that Sanders is a better runner. Given that Emmitt had the 90 additional receptions, and given I don't know anything about their catch percentages, targets, drops, etc., I'm not sure it's fair to say Sanders was a better receiver, though it certainly seems that way... regardless, we know he did more with the ball once he caught it.

Small edge to Sanders.

Blocking

Not sure how to measure this objectively, but I recall Smith being known as a good pass blocker and Sanders being viewed as average to below average. However, I don't think this was as big a factor as other things.

Small edge to Smith.

Durability/Toughness

I think Emmitt is known for his toughness. I don't recall it being viewed as strongly as a positive for Sanders as for Smith, but the fact remains that Sanders played in 153 games, compared to Smith's 155.

Wash.

** Update **

Up to this point, I'd give Sanders a slight edge, since I think rushing yardage trumps the other categories, but it's very close thanks to Emmitt's huge edge in TDs.

Situations

Emmitt played with the following Pro Bowl offensive teammates: Troy Aikman (6), Michael Irvin (5), Jay Novacek (5), Daryl Johnston (2), Nate Newton (6), Mark Stepnoski (3), Erik Williams (4), Mark Tuinei (2), Ray Donaldson (2), Larry Allen (5). That's 40 Pro Bowl teammates in 10 seasons, including 24 run blockers (OL & FB). Plus, Emmitt played his first 5 seasons for Jimmy Johnson, a great coach. Emmitt's teams also finished in the top 10 in yards allowed in 8 of those 10 seasons and in the top 10 in points allowed in 7 of those 10 seasons, which presumably gave him more opportunities.

Meanwhile, Sanders played with the following Pro Bowl offensive teammates: Lomas Brown (6), Herman Moore (4), Kevin Glover (3). That's 13 Pro Bowl teammates in 10 seasons, including 9 run blockers. Sanders never played for a coach as good as Jimmy Johnson. His teams finished in the top 10 in yards allowed and points allowed just once each in his 10 seasons.

This is a huge disparity. We could get into comparisons of All Pro teammates and HOF teammates, and they would show a similar disparity.

This factor is often stated as Emmitt having a better OL, but, in reality, Emmitt had better coaching, better OL, better passing game, better defense... heck, without looking into it, I wouldn't be surprised if his teams had better special teams, too.

Big edge to Sanders.

Honors/Awards

This category reflects how they were viewed in comparison to their peers. Obviously, this is important to this comparison, since they were peers to each other.

Emmitt:

1990 NFL AP Offensive Rookie of the Year

1992 NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc. MVP

1993 NFL AP MVP

1993 NFL PFWA MVP

1993 NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc. MVP

1993 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)

1993 NFL Super Bowl MVP

4 1st team AP All Pro selections

1 2nd team AP All Pro selection

8 Pro Bowl selections

Barry:

1989 NFL AP Offensive Rookie of the Year

1991 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)

1994 NFL AP Offensive Player of the Year

1997 NFL AP MVP

1997 NFL PFWA MVP

1997 NFL Newspaper Ent. Assoc. MVP

1997 NFL Bert Bell Award (Player of the Year)

1997 NFL AP Offensive Player of the Year

6 1st team AP All Pro selections

4 2nd team AP All Pro selections

10 Pro Bowl selections

It looks close, with a small edge to Sanders until you reach the All Pro selections, where Sanders doubled up Smith, which is extremely impressive. Sanders was no worse than 2nd team All Pro in every single season of his career... I wonder if any other player can say that. Obviously, voters thought Sanders was significantly better.

Big edge to Sanders.

Emmitt's extra 5 seasons

Emmitt holds the records he has because he played 5 more years than Sanders. There is no reason to believe Sanders wouldn't have continued to outperform Smith into their declining years, particularly given how strong their respective 10th seasons were... but the fact is that Emmitt played on and Sanders didn't. Here are the numbers in those 5 seasons:

71 games; 1166/4392/28 rushing (3.77 ypc, 61.9 ypg); 73/496/0 receiving (6.8 ypr); 4888 YFS; 28 total TDs; 16 fumbles

On the one hand, there is no doubt Emmitt provided value to his teams over this period, or he wouldn't have gotten those 1200+ additional touches. So there must be some positive value in that. However, his effectiveness dropped off sharply, and he did not make the Pro Bowl or earn any other notable honors during those 5 years, so the value is limited.

Small extra credit edge to Emmitt.

** Update **

At this point, IMO Sanders has a huge lead over Smith.

Postseason

There really is no comparison here:

Emmitt: 17 games; 349/1586/19 rushing (4.54 ypc, 93.3 ypg); 46/342/2 receiving (7.4 ypr); 1928 YFS; 21 total TDs; 3 championships; 1 Super Bowl MVP

Barry: 6 games; 91/386/1 rushing (4.24 ypc, ); 21/111/0 receiving (5.3 ypr); 497 YFS; 1 total TD; 0 championships

Though it isn't Barry's fault he didn't have more opportunities, the fact is that his performance regressed in the postseason, while Emmitt's improved.

Big edge to Smith.

Conclusion

All things considered, it is close. But I don't see how Emmitt's postseason accomplishments make up for the substantial edge Sanders had when everything else was considered. Especially considering that the supporting cast issue applies to postseason just as much as it does to regular season (to state the obvious).

So: Barry > Emmitt

:football:
outstandingly :lmao: :yes: :thumbup: , JWBBig John McCarthy-worthy!

not just saying that as a sanders admirer. that post clearly took some thought/work/time, and was well conceived and excuted (insightful and systematic).

especially liked the 40-13 pro bowl disparity (and that was JUST on offense!), very germane to a key point of this discussion, making explicit and lending statistical underpinning to the opportunity disparity leading to relative production-skewing idea many strongly suspected.

BTW, to the thread at large, its OK to like both sanders & smith.

maybe two men enter and one leaves on OAK transit... but this thread will have no leakin or amber lamps.

differences in offense are more commonly pointed out, but differences in defense (i'm glad you broke that down) has massive implications. i wonder what the average starting position on drives was for DAL and DET respectively? you have to think it favored DAL. that would translate directly to (many?) more scoring opps for smith.

here is another case where language can get twisted, and saying the above could be taken as a dis on emmitt. i agree he was the superior scorer, short yardage/goal line back. its just that it isn't incompatible or mutually exclusive to note that he not only was a better scorer than sanders (& just about everybody), but had a double advantage in having the presumable benefit of superior field position, more sustained drives, greater threat of pass to deflect defensive attention, etc.

i have thought in the past smith was unfairly criticized as being ordinary, and having the benefit of a great supporting cast. he had a near perfect build for a RB. he did have great vision and instincts (i have been remiss in not crediting him enough - i knew it already, but comments in the thread reminded me)... that is a big part of what faulk and marcus allen had, also called a nose for the end zone. he had imo underrated short area burst and accelleration (not sure if it was rice-like in a RB/WR transposition - but rice was also 40-"slow", with among the top short area burst in the business... darrell green was probably pretty good in that department, too :) )... and he had nifty feet for a nearly LB-like 215+ lb in-his-prime back... not sanders nifty, but enough to freeze and sidestep defenders... emmitt was hard to get a clean shot on, making him very dangerous, because he was rarely/never arm tackled.

the disparity in winning has come up. even with some other posters that acknowledge a difference in opportunity, still seem to reflexively and imo over-literally ascribe to emmit an aura of winning, and to sanders a stigma/taint of being a loser. again, if they switched teams, how would emmit have done? probably not three super bowls. two? imo, probably not... maybe 0 (like sanders) or 1, if the smith proponents are right and he could have bettered sanders given the same opportunity.

does anybody think sanders would have had 0 super bowls with DAL? so if he did have 1-2-3 (?) with DAL, it would be as many or more than smith in DET... and sanders would be a "winner". and smith maybe a "loser". inexorably played out according to the capricious dicates of fortune & circumstance... maybe we are capable of collectively looking a little deeper than that. :)

 
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Does anyone have a link to the negative yard stats for RB's?

This thread got me curious so I went looking for them. I also ran into some video of Barry's negative yard runs.

This may be a case of rose colored glasses, but if you watch those videos, it's pretty apparent that the guy gets unfair criticism for them. He's running to the called hole (or lack thereof) and there's either a defender(s) already there or his lineman is being driven backward into the backfield. Most of the runs I saw where going to be losses even if he lowered his shoulder. In several of them, if you take note of the hash marks where the defenders are piled up, he ends up just as far forward as he would have it's just that he's now on the opposite side of the field. He took shots at bouncing it back inside/outide or reversing the field on plays that were going nowhere. Sure, he ran 50 yards to lose 1. But if he was going to lose a yard anyway, why not try and make something out of it?

So keep in mind that just because the run results in a loss, it doesn't mean that Barry could have done better by giving up on the play and just plowing into the defenders.

Something else you'll notice is the lack of a fullback, which others have commented on. I'd like to see some breakdowns on those negative plays to see if they decreased in frequency when he had a lead blocker.

 
Does anyone have a link to the negative yard stats for RB's?This thread got me curious so I went looking for them. I also ran into some video of Barry's negative yard runs.This may be a case of rose colored glasses, but if you watch those videos, it's pretty apparent that the guy gets unfair criticism for them. He's running to the called hole (or lack thereof) and there's either a defender(s) already there or his lineman is being driven backward into the backfield. Most of the runs I saw where going to be losses even if he lowered his shoulder. In several of them, if you take note of the hash marks where the defenders are piled up, he ends up just as far forward as he would have it's just that he's now on the opposite side of the field. He took shots at bouncing it back inside/outide or reversing the field on plays that were going nowhere. Sure, he ran 50 yards to lose 1. But if he was going to lose a yard anyway, why not try and make something out of it?So keep in mind that just because the run results in a loss, it doesn't mean that Barry could have done better by giving up on the play and just plowing into the defenders.Something else you'll notice is the lack of a fullback, which others have commented on. I'd like to see some breakdowns on those negative plays to see if they decreased in frequency when he had a lead blocker.
Just like a great KR the potential was always there, must have driven defenses crazy and maybe even wore them down a little more than usual. And the lack of contact is what kept him off the injured list most of the time.
 
fissure man said:
Came back, because this bothere dme. I have seen a lto fo people write that Emmitt hung on to get the record. He was still playing at a good level when he got the record. Only after he gor the record, did Parcels run him out of town.And don't get me started on that. Had Parcels not ousted Emmitt, he would have had some very good sucess.
But he wasn't playing at a great level like Sanders was. Barry was 2703 rushing yards ahead of Emmitt when he hung them up. He was coming off of 5 years where his lowest rushing total was 1491 yards and there were years of 2053 and 1883 in there along with 3 rushing titles and an MVP award. There was 1 more year at that output separating him from Payton, and 2 more separating him from where Smith is today. Smith set the record in 2002. At that point, he was coming off of non top 10 finish, 5th, 4th, non top 10, non top 10 and barely eclipsed 1000 yards in 2 of the seasons which isn't much of a measure of greatness in the 16 game era. Barry never finished outside of the top 5 in rushing in any year of his career. He only finished outside of the top 2 in 3 of his 10 seasons. Compared to greats like Payton and Sanders he was merely hanging around to get that record.
 
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Bob Magaw went into, a little bit, what would have if Emmitt and Barry had been on opposite teams. I had been thinking about that before he brought it up. I see it a little different than just looking at titles.

Barry in Dallas: If you take into account Barry's style and the coaching, at least for the years Jimmy was there, I don't see a good fit. Jimmy liked things by the numbers. You didn't draw up plays in the sand, which is often how Barry ran. Either Barry would have had to change his style or maybe never developed it. Or Jimmy would have had to adapt to Barry. Barry with a changed style wouldn't be Barry and might not be mentioned as a "great". At the same time with that blocking maybe Barry would have just pulled out the water bug style when needed.

Emmitt in Detroit: Emmitt had a fantastic straight ahead style. Hit the hole and go or push the pile. Well, how many holes were there in Detroit? I watched Detroit for all of Barry's years and there weren't many holes. Emmitt would have gotten yards but I don't see him being the all-time rusher in Detroit. But maybe the passing game would have been better with Emmitt blocking.

I think maybe they were both on the right team. The kind of team where they could use the natural talents that each of them had. Barry had to be the water bug but it was what he was best at. Emmitt was the find the hole and hit it, what he was best at.

I don't think this answers any questions about who was better. I think it may say that they both were on the right team for their skills and if they were reversed neither would have been as productive.

Saying all of that I think Barry would have had the better career if they had been on the other player's team. That is just MO.

 
When it happened I felt that Sanders quit because he didn't want the record. He and Payton were very close, and I felt that Barry didn't want to tarnish his legacy. I still beleive this today. The "tired of losing" was simply what he told the media.

 
Does anyone have a link to the negative yard stats for RB's?This thread got me curious so I went looking for them. I also ran into some video of Barry's negative yard runs.This may be a case of rose colored glasses, but if you watch those videos, it's pretty apparent that the guy gets unfair criticism for them. He's running to the called hole (or lack thereof) and there's either a defender(s) already there or his lineman is being driven backward into the backfield. Most of the runs I saw where going to be losses even if he lowered his shoulder. In several of them, if you take note of the hash marks where the defenders are piled up, he ends up just as far forward as he would have it's just that he's now on the opposite side of the field. He took shots at bouncing it back inside/outide or reversing the field on plays that were going nowhere. Sure, he ran 50 yards to lose 1. But if he was going to lose a yard anyway, why not try and make something out of it?So keep in mind that just because the run results in a loss, it doesn't mean that Barry could have done better by giving up on the play and just plowing into the defenders.Something else you'll notice is the lack of a fullback, which others have commented on. I'd like to see some breakdowns on those negative plays to see if they decreased in frequency when he had a lead blocker.
i haven't done a detailed film study, but had been thinking along similar lines. smith's vision has been lauded, and rightfully so (witness his consensus better goal line runner acknowledgement), but what did he SEE more often than sanders? a gaping hole. what did sanders see? gleaming teeth from the voracious maw of the gates of hell!in theory, it sounds like sanders put pressure on his offense by creating negative down & distance situations at times, but what was the alternative? if he had slammed it into the middle of the line two straight plays for no gain, and the QB has to try & convert a 3rd & 10, how would that have gone?the cowboys, & 49ers ("so many weapons" TM) were teams from that era that could methodically march it down the field on 10 play drives and come away with TDs. the lions didn't have anywhere close to that level of talent. probably then, as now, it was tough for a lot of teams to score on those long, methodical drives. they would miss on a third down, make a mistake, etc. for the LIONS, there best chance to score was by ripping off large chunks of yardage with explosive plays... like the kind where sanders gets the defense pursuing one way, crosses the field and gets to the other sideline or cuts back & breaks off a 20-40-60 yard run.again, for DAL, smith was perfectly fitted to that system/scheme/talent arrayed around him (like a shark is a nearly perfectly evolved aquatic killing machine). but it might not be warranted to generalize what worked there in an entirely different situation.another possible positional double standard is dan marino. many call him the greatest QB ever. he never won a super bowl and suffered in that comparison with QBs like montana & bradshaw. but i don't think he is knocked for that too much, in recognition of that fact that football is a TEAM game, and individual success so often contingent on factors outside of an individual's control. no matter how supremely talented, there is only so much one person can do, even if they are marino & sanders, among the best to ever play their position. even in a game like basketball, with only FIVE people on the court at a time, where a dominant force would be expected to have a bigger impact and play a larger role on the eventual outcome of the contest/season, wilt didn't win a lot of championships. i also wanted to make an additional comment on JWB's post above.the disparity of all pro awards. that is interesting to me, because it is a vote of peers (not a bunch of yahoos on an internet board - like me! :shrug: )... i can only conclude they factored in and weighed the opportunity disparity, perhaps more than some here. were they just stupid and hoodwinked into voting for the more glamorous highlight reel generator? or was it a case, where people who played the game and knows what it is to compete at the highest level, looked at the two relative accomplishments, and found sanders more impressive, given his circumstances, and the lesser supporting cast, surrounding talent. another hypothetical. lets say you could put emmitt in a time machine and make him 21-22 again, and send him to the rams, where he would have to play for a franchise that is as bad in the next 10 years as it has been in the past three ( : shudder : )... how many super bowls do you think he would be winning?on sanders style - would picasso's* la guernica (the brilliant abstraction of the self-dismembering horrors of civil war) have been a better painting if done more representationally? it probably would have lost its evocative power. would dali's depiction of the changing nature of time in the modern era with melting clocks been as powerful if they were just plain, photo realistic time pieces? would kind of blue have been better if miles had just pre-written coltane's part? that would have precluded some of the most lyrical and haunting sax runs in jazz history.* a picasso anecdote - a stranger recognized and approached him one time, asking why he didn't paint more realistically? he showed him a wallet photo of his wife and said - something like this. he responded - oh, she is rather small, isn't she? and flat. ;)
 
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When it happened I felt that Sanders quit because he didn't want the record. He and Payton were very close, and I felt that Barry didn't want to tarnish his legacy. I still beleive this today. The "tired of losing" was simply what he told the media.
excerpt from the aforementioned thread that was the impetus for and prompted this one..."one difference is like jim brown, he quit at the top. emmitt quit differently. not a negative comment on smith, they are different ways to play (& retire), and we have have differences in taste/temperment here about which is "better". i would have liked to see sanders play longer as a fan, but i respect his decision, as i did when robert smith retired unexpectedly early, as he was spooked by seeing some vets (maybe like earl campbell, another top 5-10 resident, who i don't think can even tie his own shoes - seriously). i don't think that makes him a quitter or a loser. personally, i didn't like the way guys like willie mays, johnny unitas (?), joe namath went out. past their prime, basically a shell of their former selves, a hollow echo and pale reflection of their former greatness (tainting their legacy maybe just a little, for some at least... willie mays was still one of the best ever, i just wish he had retired a few years earlier). i would have liked to see sanders play a few years longer... if smith hung on a few years extra, conversely, i don't think less of him. it was more like those years were superfluous to me (they didn't impress me, other than it was impressive to last so long, but his past-his-prime body of work didn't measure up to his best work). no doubt not to emmitt!!! if he was chasing the record, which i think he said was important to him in interviews (before, not sure about after - he paid a lot respect to payton, to his credit).i don't think chasing the record was important to barry. maybe he has the kind of personality that he isn't strongly motivated by external forces like public accolades (at least not as much as some others). he is the player that never spiked the ball, flipped it to the ref each time and "acted like he had been there before"... it wouldn't have surprised me, based on what i have heard reported and my own impressions of his make-up (he maybe even said it), he may have been conflicted about eclipsing payton (who he had immense respect for) if he had gone for it? those kind of considerations don't make me think of sanders as a quitter or loser. just different strokes for different folks (like here)."
 
players like favre, marino & rice were playing at a high level when they broke their respective records. emmitt not as much. this would seem to be the source of the "hanging on" critique.

rice did freakishly play a long time (as has favre), and put the record out of sight for a long time and maybe for good. he even had some decent years around 40. but he will be remembered as the best ever, not just for his massive totals, but the fact that he was unambiguously better than everybody else in his prime. i think the same with marino, but perhaps there is as much controversy at QB (if not WR, where rice indisputably OWNS the GOAT) as RB, and montana & possibly others have their advocates?

* with players like gale sayers, earl campbell, bo jackson & terrelle davis, they would be higher if they did it for 10 years instead of a handful. with a decade of NFL service (and sanders playing at a very high level right through to the end), that seems to be a fair amount of time to see how he stacked up with emmitt IN THEIR PRIME.

and even some ultimate smith proponents do concede that sanders was better when they were both playing. but many seem to invoke the greater longevity as tipping the "overall" scale in his direction, and being the eventual deciding factor.

** sanders & jim brown (below) finished on top. since brown had an abbreviated career relative to smith, payton (also below) & even sanders (but close, at nine and ten seasons, respectively), probably not surprising he would finish strong, like sanders. but with payton, who played 13 years, it would be hard to look at his numbers and not come away with the conclusion he played at a more consistently high level THROUGHOUT his career (to the end), compared to smith, the RB that broke his career record...

payton had a more impressive CAREER. it wasn't as long a career, but the consistent greatness and still very long (for a RB) career trumps smith's several year longer career, but characterized by more mediocre production for the last 3-4 years (payton had one sub-par year, his last)... payton, for the exact same reason as sanders, is elevated in stature and raised in my estimation for putting up spectacular production under a lot of duress (i think the bears in payton's era were roughly similar to the hapless lions in sanders, in terms of lack of surrounding talent?)...

while it also speaks to their massive talent, it may not be an accident that brown & payton are #1 & #2 on many lists, and they were so consistent and finished strong, for not just a half decade or so (sayers, campbell, jackson, davis), but around a decade or more. barry has that in common.

dickerson is a guy i have anywhere from 2-4, that was like emmitt and imo put in some inconsistent work at the end, not representative (beneath? :goodposting: ) of his best work, possibly for some tarnishing his legacy (i'm still obviously very high on him, and imo think he had more inherent talent, though not the longevity, or the opportunity after leaving the rams). campbell's last half decade were sad & hard to watch. OJ simpson played 11 seasons, and went out with a whimper (injuries, RB premature aging?) his last three seasons. he had a weirdly symmetrical career, not doing so much in first and last three seasons, with a huge half decade sandwiched between those bookended sets of mediocre season trios.

jim brown (nine seasons)

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/B/BrowJi00.htm

walter payton (thirteen seasons)

http://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/P/PaytWa00.htm

 
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ravage said:
Bob Magaw went into, a little bit, what would have if Emmitt and Barry had been on opposite teams. I had been thinking about that before he brought it up. I see it a little different than just looking at titles.

Barry in Dallas: If you take into account Barry's style and the coaching, at least for the years Jimmy was there, I don't see a good fit. Jimmy liked things by the numbers. You didn't draw up plays in the sand, which is often how Barry ran. Either Barry would have had to change his style or maybe never developed it. Or Jimmy would have had to adapt to Barry. Barry with a changed style wouldn't be Barry and might not be mentioned as a "great". At the same time with that blocking maybe Barry would have just pulled out the water bug style when needed.

Emmitt in Detroit: Emmitt had a fantastic straight ahead style. Hit the hole and go or push the pile. Well, how many holes were there in Detroit? I watched Detroit for all of Barry's years and there weren't many holes. Emmitt would have gotten yards but I don't see him being the all-time rusher in Detroit. But maybe the passing game would have been better with Emmitt blocking.

I think maybe they were both on the right team. The kind of team where they could use the natural talents that each of them had. Barry had to be the water bug but it was what he was best at. Emmitt was the find the hole and hit it, what he was best at.

I don't think this answers any questions about who was better. I think it may say that they both were on the right team for their skills and if they were reversed neither would have been as productive.

Saying all of that I think Barry would have had the better career if they had been on the other player's team. That is just MO.
I get that Barry may not have been the best fit for Dallas' style of play, but if you consider yourself a top level NFL coach you should have no problem finding a way to use a guy like Barry. I still believe Barry would have shattered records if he played on those Dallas teams. I would be willing to bet he would be the only player in history with multiple 2,000 yard seasons if he had played on Dallas during those years.
 
ravage said:
Bob Magaw went into, a little bit, what would have if Emmitt and Barry had been on opposite teams. I had been thinking about that before he brought it up. I see it a little different than just looking at titles.

Barry in Dallas: If you take into account Barry's style and the coaching, at least for the years Jimmy was there, I don't see a good fit. Jimmy liked things by the numbers. You didn't draw up plays in the sand, which is often how Barry ran. Either Barry would have had to change his style or maybe never developed it. Or Jimmy would have had to adapt to Barry. Barry with a changed style wouldn't be Barry and might not be mentioned as a "great". At the same time with that blocking maybe Barry would have just pulled out the water bug style when needed.

Emmitt in Detroit: Emmitt had a fantastic straight ahead style. Hit the hole and go or push the pile. Well, how many holes were there in Detroit? I watched Detroit for all of Barry's years and there weren't many holes. Emmitt would have gotten yards but I don't see him being the all-time rusher in Detroit. But maybe the passing game would have been better with Emmitt blocking.

I think maybe they were both on the right team. The kind of team where they could use the natural talents that each of them had. Barry had to be the water bug but it was what he was best at. Emmitt was the find the hole and hit it, what he was best at.

I don't think this answers any questions about who was better. I think it may say that they both were on the right team for their skills and if they were reversed neither would have been as productive.

Saying all of that I think Barry would have had the better career if they had been on the other player's team. That is just MO.
I get that Barry may not have been the best fit for Dallas' style of play, but if you consider yourself a top level NFL coach you should have no problem finding a way to use a guy like Barry. I still believe Barry would have shattered records if he played on those Dallas teams. I would be willing to bet he would be the only player in history with multiple 2,000 yard seasons if he had played on Dallas during those years.
I don’t know why people think Barry would have had a hard time running in the Cowboys offense behind a FB.The guy won the Heisman trophy running out of the I formation at Oklahoma State.

He had 2,628 rushing yards and 37 TD’s when he won the Heisman

 
DID DAL have better OL & skill position players than DET during their respective peak years?
In the other thread I looked up 1993 when Emmitt held out to start the season. Dallas' replacement RB's averaged 74 yards a game and 3.7 YPC in his absence. Emmitt returned and ran for 106 yards a game at a 5.3 YPC clip. Dallas went 12-2 and on to win the SB. BTW, he was the only RB on the team to have a YPC above 4.0 that year.That same season, Sanders missed the last five games. He averaged 4.6 YPC and 101 yards a game rushing. For three weeks Derrick Moore replaced him and put up an identical 4.6 YPC and 86 yards rushing per game. The last two weeks of the season some guy named Lynch started at RB and averaged 100 yards a game on the ground.To their credit neither guy missed a lot of time after that, so I didn't really delve into any other seasons.
The difference between Sanders and his backups was that the backups got to play with Erik Kramer and not Rodney Peete. As soon as Sanders got hurt Peete got replaced. Kramer threw for more TDs in 4 games than Peete did in the prior 10.Back when pro-football-reference used to let you downlaod their stats I compared Smith and Sanders to their teammates. Over their careers Smith was only slightly better than his teammates 4.2YPC vs. 4.1. Sanders IIRC was 5.0 to 4.2 or 4.3.Barry averaged 20 carries a game for his career.17 of those carries were for positive yards 6.3 YPC.3 of those carries were for negative yard -2.5 YPCThe difference between Barry and other RBs was that he could make a big gain from nothing *consistently*. Most RBs have negative runs during the game, the difference isn't that Barry had many more negative runs, it is that his losses were usually about a yard more than standard back. If a RB is cranking out 6+ YPC for 17 carries a game... the problem lies with your passing game if you can't sustain drives *not* inconsistent running. He was not a drive killer.I took their first 10 seasons and removed the longest play from each game.Emmitt - 3.50 YPC (originally 4.31)Barry - 3.73 YPC (originally 4.99)Even if you take away Barry's strength (the ability to create a long play) and arguably remove Emmitt's weakness (he wasn't known as a home run player). He *still* has a higher YPC than Emmitt.Percentage wise Emmitt's longest run each game accounted for 23% of his yardage.Barry's longest run accounted for 29% of his yardage.It isn't like Emmitt was churning out nothing but 4.2 yard carries while Barry was busting 1 big run each game and doing nothing the other 19 carries.In regards to blocking I think Barry doesn't get the respect he deserves. He played in a passing offense where the defenses (disregarding Mitchell's one good season) never respected the QB or the pass. Not to mention he rarely had a TE or FB to help block. For the vast majority of his career Barry was responsible for protecting the entire line of scrimmage.Payton and Sanders are my top 2. I put Sanders at #1. Jim Brown really doesn't factor into GOAT discussion to me because the eras are so different. Brown was a man amongst boys when NFL Champions loaded with HOFers would get beat fairly often by college senior all star squads. I have a hard time saying that Brown is the greatest ever when the 1962 Packers, 1957 Lions, and 1954 Browns all got beat by college all star teams. Would anyone give a Tebow led team of college players a chance to beat the Saints? The game during Jim's era wasn't fully integrated (it wasn't until Bobby Mitchell was traded that the Redskins even had a black player), wasn't fully professional (players had to work offseason), it wasn't the most popular sport (many great athletes went to baseball), PEDs hadn't hit the scene, and appeared to be only a 1/2 step above the college game.
 
i also wanted to make an additional comment on JWB's post above.the disparity of all pro awards. that is interesting to me, because it is a vote of peers (not a bunch of yahoos on an internet board - like me! :confused: )... i can only conclude they factored in and weighed the opportunity disparity, perhaps more than some here. were they just stupid and hoodwinked into voting for the more glamorous highlight reel generator? or was it a case, where people who played the game and knows what it is to compete at the highest level, looked at the two relative accomplishments, and found sanders more impressive, given his circumstances, and the lesser supporting cast, surrounding talent.
This is off a bit.You said All Pro awards here. I posted that Sanders had twice as many All Pro awards as Smith... Sanders had 6 1st team and 4 2nd team All Pro selections, compared to Emmitt's 4 and 1, respectively... these are AP All Pro awards, and thus were voted on by AP NFL voters, not peers of Sanders and Smith.Perhaps you were meaning to highlight the Pro Bowls instead, where Sanders had 10 to Smith's 8... I'm not sure if it was the same in those years as it is now, but now there are components to the Pro Bowl voting for fan voting, player voting, and coach voting. So that would be closer to a peer vote.As I said above, these honors are extremely impressive for Sanders. He was a Pro Bowler and at least a 2nd team All Pro selection in every single season of his career. That is amazing and is a huge advantage to him in any comparison with Smith and almost all other all time greats.
 
The difference between Sanders and his backups was that the backups got to play with Erik Kramer and not Rodney Peete. As soon as Sanders got hurt Peete got replaced. Kramer threw for more TDs in 4 games than Peete did in the prior 10.Back when pro-football-reference used to let you downlaod their stats I compared Smith and Sanders to their teammates. Over their careers Smith was only slightly better than his teammates 4.2YPC vs. 4.1. Sanders IIRC was 5.0 to 4.2 or 4.3.Barry averaged 20 carries a game for his career.17 of those carries were for positive yards 6.3 YPC.3 of those carries were for negative yard -2.5 YPCThe difference between Barry and other RBs was that he could make a big gain from nothing *consistently*. Most RBs have negative runs during the game, the difference isn't that Barry had many more negative runs, it is that his losses were usually about a yard more than standard back. If a RB is cranking out 6+ YPC for 17 carries a game... the problem lies with your passing game if you can't sustain drives *not* inconsistent running. He was not a drive killer.I took their first 10 seasons and removed the longest play from each game.Emmitt - 3.50 YPC (originally 4.31)Barry - 3.73 YPC (originally 4.99)Even if you take away Barry's strength (the ability to create a long play) and arguably remove Emmitt's weakness (he wasn't known as a home run player). He *still* has a higher YPC than Emmitt.Percentage wise Emmitt's longest run each game accounted for 23% of his yardage.Barry's longest run accounted for 29% of his yardage.It isn't like Emmitt was churning out nothing but 4.2 yard carries while Barry was busting 1 big run each game and doing nothing the other 19 carries.In regards to blocking I think Barry doesn't get the respect he deserves. He played in a passing offense where the defenses (disregarding Mitchell's one good season) never respected the QB or the pass. Not to mention he rarely had a TE or FB to help block. For the vast majority of his career Barry was responsible for protecting the entire line of scrimmage.Payton and Sanders are my top 2. I put Sanders at #1. Jim Brown really doesn't factor into GOAT discussion to me because the eras are so different. Brown was a man amongst boys when NFL Champions loaded with HOFers would get beat fairly often by college senior all star squads. I have a hard time saying that Brown is the greatest ever when the 1962 Packers, 1957 Lions, and 1954 Browns all got beat by college all star teams. Would anyone give a Tebow led team of college players a chance to beat the Saints? The game during Jim's era wasn't fully integrated (it wasn't until Bobby Mitchell was traded that the Redskins even had a black player), wasn't fully professional (players had to work offseason), it wasn't the most popular sport (many great athletes went to baseball), PEDs hadn't hit the scene, and appeared to be only a 1/2 step above the college game.
Excellent post. :shrug:
 
Barry Sanders- He could make runs Emmitt Smith couldn't make so in so many people's mind, that means that he is better than Emmitt. However, there were quite a few things Emmitt was better at than Barry, like blocking, scoring Td's near the goaline (Barry was a guy who could get negative yards and was pulled near the goaline) and leadership qualities. Another huge misconception is that the Lions had a poor offensive line when Barry played. They probably had the best offensive line in that era that they've had since Super Bowl 1. Now, that line wasn't as good as the Cowboys with Emmitt, but growing up in that era, all you heard was : If Barry ran behind the Dallas line, he'd get 3000 yards. The Lions actually had a decent team back when Barry played and their offense was their strength, including their offensive line, it was their defense as usual that was weak.

Emmitt could not make some of the runs that Barry made. So when Barry was on, he looked spectacular and did things I've never seen before. IMO, that alone didn't make him better than Emmitt, others disagree.

All I can say is as a diehard Dallas fan from that era and beyond, if asked to trade Barry Sanders for Emmitt Smith straight up it would be a no brainer in saying NO, we'll keep Emmitt and you keep Barry.

I don't know Barry personally but his whole relationship with his Dad, the media and how it all went down at the end was odd. His Dad was speaking to the media for him even though he was a guy in his 20's and at the end 30.

My belief is he got frustrated playing for the Lions (if he was frustrated then, could you imagine him playing for the current team?) and he let it get the best of him. He retired too early, he had a few more years in him and he would have played if the Lions would have been a franchise that looked like they were moving in the right direction. He retired right before the season started and left a huge hole to fill and IMO along with getting Matt Millen on the team really started this team on a 10 year spiral.

To me, Emmitt Smith was a better football player and leader than Barry Sanders. Barry made some runs that were so amazing that it was worth the price of admission just to watch him play. Depends on what you view as more important and what you're looking for.

 
was sanders a "quitter" for going out on top (& if so, was jim brown... for many #1 overall, & with a similar career arc by leaving unexpectedly at the top). do people think less of him for not chasing payton's record, and does it lower his stature relative to smith, as one of the all time greats?

- no, I think that thinking makes no sense. He retired, lots of people do...

does the fact that smith played longer, though not at as high a level in his last 3-4 seasons, and did get the record, raise him in your estimation, relative to sanders?

- IMO Smith wouldn't have broken the record without playing so long... he was never great IMO, just a compiler

does the fact that smith appeared to have a superior supporting cast and surrounding talent to sanders weigh in your final analysis of sanders vs. smith (a lot, a little, not at all)? did smith draw three aces, a full house or a royal flush in his NFL destination hand of cards, and sanders a pair of twos?

- Emmitt often made it 4 yards dowfield without getting touched, do I think that helped, of course

prior to that... DID DAL have better OL & skill position players than DET during their respective peak years?

- yeah

on running style, is sanders thought less of because he didn't always run the play as designed, take the positive yards or whatever was there, and sometimes (often?) got caught for a loss by trying to make something happen/break a long run, putting the offense under pressure. OR, is it accepted that while smith's physical traits and style made him perfectly fitted for DAL, that might not have worked as well with DET's OL, and sanders style was trying to make the best of a bad situation?

- smith would have sucked in Det, Sanders would have been able to run the plays as drawn in Dal

is sanders a loser and suffer in the comparison with smith being an integral part of a multiple super bowl dynasty, or is he cut slack for not having comparable talent arrayed around him?

- Super Bowl wins are products of a team, not an individual, they have no place in the discussion of which player is better

there seem to be different takes. among smith proponents and sanders detractors, some may think that even if they weren't equal during the time they overlapped (roughly for a decade), smith's greater longevity pushes him over the top. others think smith was straight up better during said overlapping years (their respective primes), though by some measures, sanders numbers were better (except of course in wins - which i'm not sure is fair to chalk up to one person, in a sport so consumately a TEAM game as pro football).

- Smith's longevity, if you want to use that term, did nothing to increase my opinion of him as a player, he isn't a "better" RB for paying longer, that's stupid thinking

* without becoming a top 5 thread, feel free to include your respective rankings of sanders & smith.

for the record, i have sanders at #4 (after brown, dickerson & payton - maybe i should move dickerson down, & payton, & possibly sanders, above him - i think he might have surpassed payton's record if he stayed with the rams?), and smith (who i'm in the process of revising my opinion of) #5 or #6.
Sanders is in my top 5, Smith is borderline top-10
 
Barry Sanders- He could make runs Emmitt Smith couldn't make so in so many people's mind, that means that he is better than Emmitt. However, there were quite a few things Emmitt was better at than Barry, like blocking, scoring Td's near the goaline (Barry was a guy who could get negative yards and was pulled near the goaline) and leadership qualities....To me, Emmitt Smith was a better football player and leader than Barry Sanders. Barry made some runs that were so amazing that it was worth the price of admission just to watch him play. Depends on what you view as more important and what you're looking for.
I think it's fair to say Emmitt was a better leader. I don't have any objective evidence that tells me Emmitt was a better blocker, but I know he had a better reputation as a blocker, so I'd concede that. And he was obviously better at scoring TDs.Conversely, Sanders was a better receiver and a much better runner. Call me crazy, but I think most teams would prioritize running and receiving over leadership and blocking in their RBs.And TDs are at least partly dictated by opportunity, which includes both number of touches and the quality of other offensive players... To me, this makes Sanders clearly better. And this is evidenced by the honors and awards breakdown between them.
Another huge misconception is that the Lions had a poor offensive line when Barry played. They probably had the best offensive line in that era that they've had since Super Bowl 1. Now, that line wasn't as good as the Cowboys with Emmitt, but growing up in that era, all you heard was : If Barry ran behind the Dallas line, he'd get 3000 yards. The Lions actually had a decent team back when Barry played and their offense was their strength, including their offensive line, it was their defense as usual that was weak.
I addressed this issue in my first post in this threadIn his career of 10 seasons, Sanders had 9 Pro Bowl blockers (counting OL and FB as blockers and TEs as receivers), less than one per season; Emmitt had 24 Pro Bowl blockers in his first 10 seasons. Similarly, Sanders had a total of 13 Pro Bowl offensive teammates (including those run blockers) in his career, while Emmitt had 40 Pro Bowl offensive teammates in his first 10 seasons. Emmitt also had better coaching and much better defenses, which provided him with greater opportunity than Sanders had. Their situations aren't comparable... Emmitt had more than 3 times as many Pro Bowl teammates, and that's just on offense.Who knows if Sanders would have performed better if he were on Dallas instead of Emmitt throughout their careers. I think most people would expect that he would have. But that is more of a hypothetical that doesn't really help in these discussions. However, IMO it is indisputable that Emmitt played in a much better situation than Sanders did for his first 10 seasons, which is the portion of Emmitt's career that is comparable to Sanders. And yet Sanders outplayed him.
 
Barry Sanders- He could make runs Emmitt Smith couldn't make so in so many people's mind, that means that he is better than Emmitt. However, there were quite a few things Emmitt was better at than Barry, like blocking, scoring Td's near the goaline (Barry was a guy who could get negative yards and was pulled near the goaline) and leadership qualities....To me, Emmitt Smith was a better football player and leader than Barry Sanders. Barry made some runs that were so amazing that it was worth the price of admission just to watch him play. Depends on what you view as more important and what you're looking for.
I think it's fair to say Emmitt was a better leader. I don't have any objective evidence that tells me Emmitt was a better blocker, but I know he had a better reputation as a blocker, so I'd concede that. And he was obviously better at scoring TDs.Conversely, Sanders was a better receiver and a much better runner. Call me crazy, but I think most teams would prioritize running and receiving over leadership and blocking in their RBs.And TDs are at least partly dictated by opportunity, which includes both number of touches and the quality of other offensive players... To me, this makes Sanders clearly better. And this is evidenced by the honors and awards breakdown between them.
Another huge misconception is that the Lions had a poor offensive line when Barry played. They probably had the best offensive line in that era that they've had since Super Bowl 1. Now, that line wasn't as good as the Cowboys with Emmitt, but growing up in that era, all you heard was : If Barry ran behind the Dallas line, he'd get 3000 yards. The Lions actually had a decent team back when Barry played and their offense was their strength, including their offensive line, it was their defense as usual that was weak.
I addressed this issue in my first post in this threadIn his career of 10 seasons, Sanders had 9 Pro Bowl blockers (counting OL and FB as blockers and TEs as receivers), less than one per season; Emmitt had 24 Pro Bowl blockers in his first 10 seasons. Similarly, Sanders had a total of 13 Pro Bowl offensive teammates (including those run blockers) in his career, while Emmitt had 40 Pro Bowl offensive teammates in his first 10 seasons. Emmitt also had better coaching and much better defenses, which provided him with greater opportunity than Sanders had. Their situations aren't comparable... Emmitt had more than 3 times as many Pro Bowl teammates, and that's just on offense.Who knows if Sanders would have performed better if he were on Dallas instead of Emmitt throughout their careers. I think most people would expect that he would have. But that is more of a hypothetical that doesn't really help in these discussions. However, IMO it is indisputable that Emmitt played in a much better situation than Sanders did for his first 10 seasons, which is the portion of Emmitt's career that is comparable to Sanders. And yet Sanders outplayed him.
I mentioned that Sanders had a good offensive line to run behind but Emmitt's was better, not sure why you are trying to drive that point home. Barry still had 9 Pro Bowl blockers, so my point was (and you helped me prove it, so thank you) that Barry still had an above average group to run behind. People who just know that the Lions team name stinks, think that Barry didn't have any help in running the football and it was him versus 11 defensemen every down and that's far from the truth. Just focusing on the Lions, that was probably their best offensive unit in the last 40 years.As far as saying Barry was a better receiver, I don't buy that. They were both pretty good or above average receivers and Barry wasn't a bad blocker, although I do think Emmitt was a little better at picking up a blitz, but that's just me.Emmitt Smith in terms of debate of where he falls in the all time great RB's has actually been hurt by his offensive line. Most people (many who don't have a clue but since they've heard it before they just say it as truth) think that his line made him when that's the farthest from the truth. Emmitt Smith had amazing vision and knew how to follow his blockers and where the hole would open up better than just about anyone to ever carry a football. If you ask the linemen on that Dallas team and ask Moose Johnson, they'll be the first to tell you about who made that Dallas running game go, and that was Emmitt.Barry was fantastic, he could make you miss better than anyone I ever saw. It sounds like if you had Barry and I had Emmitt on a real football team we wouldn't be trading and I think we'd both end up with a couple of pretty good football players.
 
Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:
Just Win Baby said:
Barry Sanders- He could make runs Emmitt Smith couldn't make so in so many people's mind, that means that he is better than Emmitt. However, there were quite a few things Emmitt was better at than Barry, like blocking, scoring Td's near the goaline (Barry was a guy who could get negative yards and was pulled near the goaline) and leadership qualities....To me, Emmitt Smith was a better football player and leader than Barry Sanders. Barry made some runs that were so amazing that it was worth the price of admission just to watch him play. Depends on what you view as more important and what you're looking for.
I think it's fair to say Emmitt was a better leader. I don't have any objective evidence that tells me Emmitt was a better blocker, but I know he had a better reputation as a blocker, so I'd concede that. And he was obviously better at scoring TDs.Conversely, Sanders was a better receiver and a much better runner. Call me crazy, but I think most teams would prioritize running and receiving over leadership and blocking in their RBs.And TDs are at least partly dictated by opportunity, which includes both number of touches and the quality of other offensive players... To me, this makes Sanders clearly better. And this is evidenced by the honors and awards breakdown between them.
Another huge misconception is that the Lions had a poor offensive line when Barry played. They probably had the best offensive line in that era that they've had since Super Bowl 1. Now, that line wasn't as good as the Cowboys with Emmitt, but growing up in that era, all you heard was : If Barry ran behind the Dallas line, he'd get 3000 yards. The Lions actually had a decent team back when Barry played and their offense was their strength, including their offensive line, it was their defense as usual that was weak.
I addressed this issue in my first post in this threadIn his career of 10 seasons, Sanders had 9 Pro Bowl blockers (counting OL and FB as blockers and TEs as receivers), less than one per season; Emmitt had 24 Pro Bowl blockers in his first 10 seasons. Similarly, Sanders had a total of 13 Pro Bowl offensive teammates (including those run blockers) in his career, while Emmitt had 40 Pro Bowl offensive teammates in his first 10 seasons. Emmitt also had better coaching and much better defenses, which provided him with greater opportunity than Sanders had. Their situations aren't comparable... Emmitt had more than 3 times as many Pro Bowl teammates, and that's just on offense.Who knows if Sanders would have performed better if he were on Dallas instead of Emmitt throughout their careers. I think most people would expect that he would have. But that is more of a hypothetical that doesn't really help in these discussions. However, IMO it is indisputable that Emmitt played in a much better situation than Sanders did for his first 10 seasons, which is the portion of Emmitt's career that is comparable to Sanders. And yet Sanders outplayed him.
I mentioned that Sanders had a good offensive line to run behind but Emmitt's was better, not sure why you are trying to drive that point home. Barry still had 9 Pro Bowl blockers, so my point was (and you helped me prove it, so thank you) that Barry still had an above average group to run behind. People who just know that the Lions team name stinks, think that Barry didn't have any help in running the football and it was him versus 11 defensemen every down and that's far from the truth. Just focusing on the Lions, that was probably their best offensive unit in the last 40 years.As far as saying Barry was a better receiver, I don't buy that. They were both pretty good or above average receivers and Barry wasn't a bad blocker, although I do think Emmitt was a little better at picking up a blitz, but that's just me.Emmitt Smith in terms of debate of where he falls in the all time great RB's has actually been hurt by his offensive line. Most people (many who don't have a clue but since they've heard it before they just say it as truth) think that his line made him when that's the farthest from the truth. Emmitt Smith had amazing vision and knew how to follow his blockers and where the hole would open up better than just about anyone to ever carry a football. If you ask the linemen on that Dallas team and ask Moose Johnson, they'll be the first to tell you about who made that Dallas running game go, and that was Emmitt.Barry was fantastic, he could make you miss better than anyone I ever saw. It sounds like if you had Barry and I had Emmitt on a real football team we wouldn't be trading and I think we'd both end up with a couple of pretty good football players.
I think you'd have a hard time finding many all time great RBs who had a lower percentage of Pro Bowl blockers than Sanders. Walter Payton is the only one I know of off the top of my head. So when discussing all time great RBs, I don't think 9 Pro Bowl blockers in 10 seasons proves anything about the quality of the Detroit offensive line.It's not like I think Emmitt is a slouch. It's just that I think Sanders happens to be deservedly viewed ahead of him among the all time greats. It's no crime to be ranked somewhere in the top several RBs all time but not in the top 3.
 
I think you'd have a hard time finding many all time great RBs who had a lower percentage of Pro Bowl blockers than Sanders. Walter Payton is the only one I know of off the top of my head. So when discussing all time great RBs, I don't think 9 Pro Bowl blockers in 10 seasons proves anything about the quality of the Detroit offensive line.It's not like I think Emmitt is a slouch. It's just that I think Sanders happens to be deservedly viewed ahead of him among the all time greats. It's no crime to be ranked somewhere in the top several RBs all time but not in the top 3.
Payton had a little less offensive talent but much more defensive talent (which keeps the running game relevant). I think Barry is the only modern RB in the HOF that never played with another HOFer and never played with a QB that had a 1st team all-pro or pro bowl season while on the Lions. When it comes to a supporting cast I don't think that you can find any worse than what Barry had amongst HOF RBs.My rankings are1) Sanders2) Payton3-5) Smith, Brown, Simpson (in any order you want)6-9) Faulk, Dickerson, Tomlinson (in any order you want)10) CampbellThe only player on this list with huge flaw would be Dickerson (who fumbled a lot). Campbell was a pretty poor receiver (in fact he never even scored a receiving TD).I left off Martin and Bettis since I never considered them the best of their era... much less among the best of all time.You could make an argument for Dorsett but he makes Adrian Peterson look like he has the best hands in the league.Marcus Allen played like a 30 year old Tomlinson for about 10 straight years.One myth that I would like to debunk is that Sanders couldn't run at the goal line. Barry in 1989, 1990, 1991, 1992, and 1996 was the only RB/WR on the team to score a rushing TD. So 5 out of his 10 years no other RB/WR scored a single rushing TD for the Lions. IIRC no other RB in the history of the league had this happen more than 3 times. This isn't to say he wasn't substituted at the goal line later in his career but to say he couldn't run at the goal line or for short yardage is a complete myth. Again, back when PFR made their stats available, only Curtis Martin and Emmitt Smith scored a higher percentage of their team's RB/WR rushing TDs (btw I group WRs with RBs because of the way PFR used to bundle their stats - it was the only way to factor in guys like Bobby Mitchell, Eric Metcalf etc. etc.). I *think* Tomlinson and Alexander would now be 1 and 2 followed by Martin, Smith, and Sanders. It is disingenous to say he couldn't run at the goal line and then give Walter Payton a pass (who was often outscored by other RBs on his team) when he didn't his number called at the goal line. In a similar vein, Barry took the highest percentage of his team's RB/WR carries in the history of the league. IIRC he took about 85-87% of the carries so he wasn't being substituted for very often. Not only that, only Faulk and James caught a higher percentage of their team's passes to RBs (only RBs here and this might have changed since 2005 or so but I doubt it). There were several years where all the non-starting RBs for the Lions caught a grand total of 2 balls or less for the season - so it wasn't like Barry was being substituted on passing downs either.
 
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Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:
Just Win Baby said:
Barry Sanders- He could make runs Emmitt Smith couldn't make so in so many people's mind, that means that he is better than Emmitt. However, there were quite a few things Emmitt was better at than Barry, like blocking, scoring Td's near the goaline (Barry was a guy who could get negative yards and was pulled near the goaline) and leadership qualities....To me, Emmitt Smith was a better football player and leader than Barry Sanders. Barry made some runs that were so amazing that it was worth the price of admission just to watch him play. Depends on what you view as more important and what you're looking for.
I think it's fair to say Emmitt was a better leader. I don't have any objective evidence that tells me Emmitt was a better blocker, but I know he had a better reputation as a blocker, so I'd concede that. And he was obviously better at scoring TDs.Conversely, Sanders was a better receiver and a much better runner. Call me crazy, but I think most teams would prioritize running and receiving over leadership and blocking in their RBs.And TDs are at least partly dictated by opportunity, which includes both number of touches and the quality of other offensive players... To me, this makes Sanders clearly better. And this is evidenced by the honors and awards breakdown between them.
Another huge misconception is that the Lions had a poor offensive line when Barry played. They probably had the best offensive line in that era that they've had since Super Bowl 1. Now, that line wasn't as good as the Cowboys with Emmitt, but growing up in that era, all you heard was : If Barry ran behind the Dallas line, he'd get 3000 yards. The Lions actually had a decent team back when Barry played and their offense was their strength, including their offensive line, it was their defense as usual that was weak.
I addressed this issue in my first post in this threadIn his career of 10 seasons, Sanders had 9 Pro Bowl blockers (counting OL and FB as blockers and TEs as receivers), less than one per season; Emmitt had 24 Pro Bowl blockers in his first 10 seasons. Similarly, Sanders had a total of 13 Pro Bowl offensive teammates (including those run blockers) in his career, while Emmitt had 40 Pro Bowl offensive teammates in his first 10 seasons. Emmitt also had better coaching and much better defenses, which provided him with greater opportunity than Sanders had. Their situations aren't comparable... Emmitt had more than 3 times as many Pro Bowl teammates, and that's just on offense.Who knows if Sanders would have performed better if he were on Dallas instead of Emmitt throughout their careers. I think most people would expect that he would have. But that is more of a hypothetical that doesn't really help in these discussions. However, IMO it is indisputable that Emmitt played in a much better situation than Sanders did for his first 10 seasons, which is the portion of Emmitt's career that is comparable to Sanders. And yet Sanders outplayed him.
I mentioned that Sanders had a good offensive line to run behind but Emmitt's was better, not sure why you are trying to drive that point home. Barry still had 9 Pro Bowl blockers, so my point was (and you helped me prove it, so thank you) that Barry still had an above average group to run behind. People who just know that the Lions team name stinks, think that Barry didn't have any help in running the football and it was him versus 11 defensemen every down and that's far from the truth. Just focusing on the Lions, that was probably their best offensive unit in the last 40 years.As far as saying Barry was a better receiver, I don't buy that. They were both pretty good or above average receivers and Barry wasn't a bad blocker, although I do think Emmitt was a little better at picking up a blitz, but that's just me.Emmitt Smith in terms of debate of where he falls in the all time great RB's has actually been hurt by his offensive line. Most people (many who don't have a clue but since they've heard it before they just say it as truth) think that his line made him when that's the farthest from the truth. Emmitt Smith had amazing vision and knew how to follow his blockers and where the hole would open up better than just about anyone to ever carry a football. If you ask the linemen on that Dallas team and ask Moose Johnson, they'll be the first to tell you about who made that Dallas running game go, and that was Emmitt.Barry was fantastic, he could make you miss better than anyone I ever saw. It sounds like if you had Barry and I had Emmitt on a real football team we wouldn't be trading and I think we'd both end up with a couple of pretty good football players.
Barry's O-linemen from 1989 - 1998:LT - Lomas Brown, Ray RobertsLG - Eric Andolsek, Shawn Bouwens, David Richards, Mike ComptonC - Kevin Glover, Blake Miller, Jim PyneRG - Ken Dallafior, Mike Utley, Bill Fralic, Doug Widell, Jeff HartingsRT - Harvey Salem, Eric Sanders, Scott Conover, Dave Lutz, Zefross Moss, Larry Tharpe, Tony RamirezEmmitt's 1990 - 1998:LT - Mark Tuinei, George Hegamin, Larry AllenLG - Crawford Ker, Kevin Gogan, Nate NewtonC - Mark Stepnoski, Ray Donaldson, Clay Shiver, Mike KiselakRG - John Gesek, Derek Kennard, Larry Allen, Flozell Adams, Everett McIverRT - Nate Newton, Erik Williams, Larry AllenFor many years, Emmitt had the same line (except RG), which is a much bigger deal than the number of Pro Bowls each player had. When you know the guy blocking in front is going to know his job, it's makes the plays run much smoother/better.While Barry had some consistency, there was also a lot of turnover at the OL positions. When you are training new people year after year, there is a learning curve. I think the cohesiveness and consistency was more important in Emmitt's success than the fact the players were "recognized" with Pro Bowls.
 
Iwannabeacowboybaby! said:
Just Win Baby said:
Barry Sanders- He could make runs Emmitt Smith couldn't make so in so many people's mind, that means that he is better than Emmitt. However, there were quite a few things Emmitt was better at than Barry, like blocking, scoring Td's near the goaline (Barry was a guy who could get negative yards and was pulled near the goaline) and leadership qualities....To me, Emmitt Smith was a better football player and leader than Barry Sanders. Barry made some runs that were so amazing that it was worth the price of admission just to watch him play. Depends on what you view as more important and what you're looking for.
I think it's fair to say Emmitt was a better leader. I don't have any objective evidence that tells me Emmitt was a better blocker, but I know he had a better reputation as a blocker, so I'd concede that. And he was obviously better at scoring TDs.Conversely, Sanders was a better receiver and a much better runner. Call me crazy, but I think most teams would prioritize running and receiving over leadership and blocking in their RBs.And TDs are at least partly dictated by opportunity, which includes both number of touches and the quality of other offensive players... To me, this makes Sanders clearly better. And this is evidenced by the honors and awards breakdown between them.
Another huge misconception is that the Lions had a poor offensive line when Barry played. They probably had the best offensive line in that era that they've had since Super Bowl 1. Now, that line wasn't as good as the Cowboys with Emmitt, but growing up in that era, all you heard was : If Barry ran behind the Dallas line, he'd get 3000 yards. The Lions actually had a decent team back when Barry played and their offense was their strength, including their offensive line, it was their defense as usual that was weak.
I addressed this issue in my first post in this threadIn his career of 10 seasons, Sanders had 9 Pro Bowl blockers (counting OL and FB as blockers and TEs as receivers), less than one per season; Emmitt had 24 Pro Bowl blockers in his first 10 seasons. Similarly, Sanders had a total of 13 Pro Bowl offensive teammates (including those run blockers) in his career, while Emmitt had 40 Pro Bowl offensive teammates in his first 10 seasons. Emmitt also had better coaching and much better defenses, which provided him with greater opportunity than Sanders had. Their situations aren't comparable... Emmitt had more than 3 times as many Pro Bowl teammates, and that's just on offense.Who knows if Sanders would have performed better if he were on Dallas instead of Emmitt throughout their careers. I think most people would expect that he would have. But that is more of a hypothetical that doesn't really help in these discussions. However, IMO it is indisputable that Emmitt played in a much better situation than Sanders did for his first 10 seasons, which is the portion of Emmitt's career that is comparable to Sanders. And yet Sanders outplayed him.
I mentioned that Sanders had a good offensive line to run behind but Emmitt's was better, not sure why you are trying to drive that point home. Barry still had 9 Pro Bowl blockers, so my point was (and you helped me prove it, so thank you) that Barry still had an above average group to run behind. People who just know that the Lions team name stinks, think that Barry didn't have any help in running the football and it was him versus 11 defensemen every down and that's far from the truth. Just focusing on the Lions, that was probably their best offensive unit in the last 40 years.As far as saying Barry was a better receiver, I don't buy that. They were both pretty good or above average receivers and Barry wasn't a bad blocker, although I do think Emmitt was a little better at picking up a blitz, but that's just me.Emmitt Smith in terms of debate of where he falls in the all time great RB's has actually been hurt by his offensive line. Most people (many who don't have a clue but since they've heard it before they just say it as truth) think that his line made him when that's the farthest from the truth. Emmitt Smith had amazing vision and knew how to follow his blockers and where the hole would open up better than just about anyone to ever carry a football. If you ask the linemen on that Dallas team and ask Moose Johnson, they'll be the first to tell you about who made that Dallas running game go, and that was Emmitt.Barry was fantastic, he could make you miss better than anyone I ever saw. It sounds like if you had Barry and I had Emmitt on a real football team we wouldn't be trading and I think we'd both end up with a couple of pretty good football players.
Barry's O-linemen from 1989 - 1998:LT - Lomas Brown, Ray RobertsLG - Eric Andolsek, Shawn Bouwens, David Richards, Mike ComptonC - Kevin Glover, Blake Miller, Jim PyneRG - Ken Dallafior, Mike Utley, Bill Fralic, Doug Widell, Jeff HartingsRT - Harvey Salem, Eric Sanders, Scott Conover, Dave Lutz, Zefross Moss, Larry Tharpe, Tony RamirezEmmitt's 1990 - 1998:LT - Mark Tuinei, George Hegamin, Larry AllenLG - Crawford Ker, Kevin Gogan, Nate NewtonC - Mark Stepnoski, Ray Donaldson, Clay Shiver, Mike KiselakRG - John Gesek, Derek Kennard, Larry Allen, Flozell Adams, Everett McIverRT - Nate Newton, Erik Williams, Larry AllenFor many years, Emmitt had the same line (except RG), which is a much bigger deal than the number of Pro Bowls each player had. When you know the guy blocking in front is going to know his job, it's makes the plays run much smoother/better.While Barry had some consistency, there was also a lot of turnover at the OL positions. When you are training new people year after year, there is a learning curve. I think the cohesiveness and consistency was more important in Emmitt's success than the fact the players were "recognized" with Pro Bowls.
Correct Titan,And again I agree that Emmitt's line was better than Barry's but my point is simply Barry's line was not a poor offensive line which many people like to think because the Detroit name itself means bad football.
 
It is disingenous to say he couldn't run at the goal line and then give Walter Payton a pass (who was often outscored by other RBs on his team) when he didn't his number called at the goal line.
Your post was great right up to this point. Payton was outscored by another RB on his team in exactly 1 of 13 seasons -- the 1982 strike season, when he scored 1 TD and FB Matt Suhey scored 3.
 
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It is disingenous to say he couldn't run at the goal line and then give Walter Payton a pass (who was often outscored by other RBs on his team) when he didn't his number called at the goal line.
Your post was great right up to this point. Payton was outscored by another RB on his team in exactly 1 of 13 seasons -- the 1982 strike season, when he scored 1 TD and FB Matt Suhey scored 3.
No, the sum total of the other RBs outscored him which I know happened a couple of times.
 
It is disingenous to say he couldn't run at the goal line and then give Walter Payton a pass (who was often outscored by other RBs on his team) when he didn't his number called at the goal line.
Your post was great right up to this point. Payton was outscored by another RB on his team in exactly 1 of 13 seasons -- the 1982 strike season, when he scored 1 TD and FB Matt Suhey scored 3.
No, the sum total of the other RBs outscored him which I know happened a couple of times.
80, 81, 82, 83, 84t, & 85
 
Although I prefer Barry in this particular debate, one thing that did impress me about Emmitt, besides his amazing career, that never gets mentioned, was that even in the twilight of his career on a terrible Cardinals team he was putting up relatively respectable numbers.

 
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It is disingenous to say he couldn't run at the goal line and then give Walter Payton a pass (who was often outscored by other RBs on his team) when he didn't his number called at the goal line.
Your post was great right up to this point. Payton was outscored by another RB on his team in exactly 1 of 13 seasons -- the 1982 strike season, when he scored 1 TD and FB Matt Suhey scored 3.
No, the sum total of the other RBs outscored him which I know happened a couple of times.
80, 81, 82, 83, 84t, & 85
Both of you are incorrect.In 1980, Payton scored 6 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 6 rushing TDs.In 1981, Payton scored 6 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 4 rushing TDs.In 1983, Payton scored 6 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 5 rushing TDs.In 1984, Payton scored 11 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 7 rushing TDs.In 1985, Payton scored 9 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 8 rushing TDs.The Bears QBs scored a good number of TDs, and William Perry got a couple in the Super Bowl season. But Payton generally outscored the other RBs... saying he didn't was the point I objected to. :thumbup:
 
Although I prefer Barry in this particular debate, one thing that did impress me about Emmitt, besides his amazing career, that never gets mentioned, was that even in the twilight of his career on a terrible Cardinals team he was putting up relatively respectable numbers.
Really? He averaged 3.3 ypc and less than 48 rushing yards per game in his 2 seasons in Arizona. I wouldn't call that particularly respectable.
 
Although I prefer Barry in this particular debate, one thing that did impress me about Emmitt, besides his amazing career, that never gets mentioned, was that even in the twilight of his career on a terrible Cardinals team he was putting up relatively respectable numbers.
Really? He averaged 3.3 ypc and less than 48 rushing yards per game in his 2 seasons in Arizona. I wouldn't call that particularly respectable.
Ya, that's why I said RELATIVELY successful, and I was more referring to his final season. Even at the age of 35 he had over 1000 total yards and 9 TDs on a miserable squad. In the two seasons prior to Emmitt arriving, a young Thomas Jones averaged 35.6 yards per game and 3.5 yards per carry and 3.5 TDs a season. I would say that is impressive for a running back in his mid-thirties. Thus, relative to his age and situation, Emmitt was putting up respectable numbers in his 15th season.
 
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