Sanders/Smith Caged Match (2 Viewers)

[sn0mm1s]

It is disingenous to say he couldn't run at the goal line and then give Walter Payton a pass (who was often outscored by other RBs on his team) when he didn't his number called at the goal line.

Your post was great right up to this point. Payton was outscored by another RB on his team in exactly 1 of 13 seasons -- the 1982 strike season, when he scored 1 TD and FB Matt Suhey scored 3.

No, the sum total of the other RBs outscored him which I know happened a couple of times.

80, 81, 82, 83, 84t, & 85

Both of you are incorrect.In 1980, Payton scored 6 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 6 rushing TDs.In 1981, Payton scored 6 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 4 rushing TDs.In 1983, Payton scored 6 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 5 rushing TDs.In 1984, Payton scored 11 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 7 rushing TDs.In 1985, Payton scored 9 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 8 rushing TDs.The Bears QBs scored a good number of TDs, and William Perry got a couple in the Super Bowl season. But Payton generally outscored the other RBs... saying he didn't was the point I objected to.

Perry did play RB though at the goal line and Gentry got some carries too. Perry may not be listed an RB but he lined up as one and got his number called. The fact is that It wasn't like Payton was getting all the carries and his number was often not called. Bears' RBs scored *many* more rushing TDs than Lions' but no one ever says "Payton couldn't handle goal line carries" yet that is said about Sanders all the time.1982 Payton 1 TD, other non-QB runners 31985 Payton 9 TDs, other non-QB runners 10Other runners matched Payton in 1980 and 1986I won't count 1987 since he didn't play in all the games.Now, if you look at Sanders his teammates scored more than him in1993 (but since I threw out 1987 for missed games then I can throw out this season due to injury)1998.His TD totals were never matched.So, if Barry is considered a poor goal line runner then Payton shouldn't get a pass. I mean, one could argue that William Perry was considered better goal line runner because he got carries over Payton (which is ludicrous) - but this is the exact same line of thinking people apply to Barry vs Tommy Vardell under Bobby Ross. Vardell got 6 TDs in 18 carries in 1998. Perry got 2 TDs in 5 carries in 1985. All it shows is that you can put a big guy in at the goal line and have a decent shot to score... not that the RB not getting the carry is a poor goal line runner.

 

[Tau837]

Both of you are incorrect.In 1980, Payton scored 6 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 6 rushing TDs.In 1981, Payton scored 6 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 4 rushing TDs.In 1983, Payton scored 6 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 5 rushing TDs.In 1984, Payton scored 11 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 7 rushing TDs.In 1985, Payton scored 9 rushing TDs, and other Bears RBs combined to score 8 rushing TDs.The Bears QBs scored a good number of TDs, and William Perry got a couple in the Super Bowl season. But Payton generally outscored the other RBs... saying he didn't was the point I objected to.

Perry did play RB though at the goal line and Gentry got some carries too. Perry may not be listed an RB but he lined up as one and got his number called. The fact is that It wasn't like Payton was getting all the carries and his number was often not called. Bears' RBs scored *many* more rushing TDs than Lions' but no one ever says "Payton couldn't handle goal line carries" yet that is said about Sanders all the time.1982 Payton 1 TD, other non-QB runners 31985 Payton 9 TDs, other non-QB runners 10Other runners matched Payton in 1980 and 1986I won't count 1987 since he didn't play in all the games.Now, if you look at Sanders his teammates scored more than him in1993 (but since I threw out 1987 for missed games then I can throw out this season due to injury)1998.His TD totals were never matched.So, if Barry is considered a poor goal line runner then Payton shouldn't get a pass. I mean, one could argue that William Perry was considered better goal line runner because he got carries over Payton (which is ludicrous) - but this is the exact same line of thinking people apply to Barry vs Tommy Vardell under Bobby Ross. Vardell got 6 TDs in 18 carries in 1998. Perry got 2 TDs in 5 carries in 1985. All it shows is that you can put a big guy in at the goal line and have a decent shot to score... not that the RB not getting the carry is a poor goal line runner.

I think we're splitting hairs. I personally rank Payton as the #1 RB of all time, Jim Brown as #2, and Sanders as #3.Look, I agree that Detroit was silly to replace Sanders at the goal line. I just don't think it makes sense to knock Walter Payton to make a point about that.

 

[sn0mm1s]

I think we're splitting hairs. I personally rank Payton as the #1 RB of all time, Jim Brown as #2, and Sanders as #3.Look, I agree that Detroit was silly to replace Sanders at the goal line. I just don't think it makes sense to knock Walter Payton to make a point about that.

I am not knocking Payton, just trying to illustrate the double standard. No one (especially not me) considers Payton a poor goal line runner. I understand that goal line TDs can be made by anyone (the highest percentage play is actually a QB run) like behemoth lineman and big, slow FBs. I also don't consider Sanders a poor goal line runner (he didn't even have a lead blocker for most of his career) but many people do due to his last 2 seasons in the league under Bobby Ross.A similar argument that drives me nuts is playoff performance. I don't know how many times I see Sanders' stat line of 13 carries for -1 yards in a playoff game (yet no one mentions Jim Brown's 7 carries for 8 yards or whatever it was). Also, if you look at Brown's and Payton's playoff numbers it is hard to see how they are better than Sanders... but again no one says Payton and Brown were poor playoff runners.

 

[Bob Magaw]

I think we're splitting hairs. I personally rank Payton as the #1 RB of all time, Jim Brown as #2, and Sanders as #3.Look, I agree that Detroit was silly to replace Sanders at the goal line. I just don't think it makes sense to knock Walter Payton to make a point about that.

I am not knocking Payton, just trying to illustrate the double standard. No one (especially not me) considers Payton a poor goal line runner. I understand that goal line TDs can be made by anyone (the highest percentage play is actually a QB run) like behemoth lineman and big, slow FBs. I also don't consider Sanders a poor goal line runner (he didn't even have a lead blocker for most of his career) but many people do due to his last 2 seasons in the league under Bobby Ross.A similar argument that drives me nuts is playoff performance. I don't know how many times I see Sanders' stat line of 13 carries for -1 yards in a playoff game (yet no one mentions Jim Brown's 7 carries for 8 yards or whatever it was). Also, if you look at Brown's and Payton's playoff numbers it is hard to see how they are better than Sanders... but again no one says Payton and Brown were poor playoff runners.

s

 

[fissure man]

This conversation has really spiraled out of control. I'm the biggest Smith fan there is, but I will always admit Barry was the more talented runner. Would have have produced numbers better numbers then Smith in Dallas then he did in Detroit? Maybe.

I can only go by what I saw. A lot of guys get good opportunities and fail. Emmitt was one of the most clutch RB's ever. He played hard. He showed up on each and every Sunday and produced. He was rarely ever caught from behind. For all the love Barry gets as a home run threat, he sure got caught at the one a lot. A LOT.

To add to the GL discussion, taking Barry freakin Sanders out of the game in GL situations was pure lunacy, and any coach should be fired on the spot for doing so.

 

[Leroy Hoard]

To add to the GL discussion, taking Barry freakin Sanders out of the game in GL situations was pure lunacy, and any coach should be fired on the spot for doing so.

Yes Emmitt had better coaches also.

 

[switz]

It's no crime to be ranked somewhere in the top several RBs all time but not in the top 3.

Exactly. I don't understand why the Sanders fanclub can't get over this. Barry was a great RB. Just not in the top 3 with Brown, Peyton, and Emmitt.

I think you've got it backwards

 

[sn0mm1s]

Another thing that people might find interesting is that when I was data mining all the stats I wanted to see who (among those with 2000+ carries) faced the toughest league to run against. I did this by taking all the non-QB rushes over the course of a player's career and finding the league's YPC excluding the RB's stats that I was interested in. Believe it or not, Barry faced the toughest league to run against measured by YPC. IIRC the average rush while Barry played, excluding his rushes, was 3.8 or 3.9 YPC. I also measured who performed the highest above league average. The rankings were

1) Brown

2) Sanders

3) Simpson

Brown and Sanders were essentially tied in this with a decent dropoff to Simpson

I also measured each player against his teammates (taking the team's YPC vs. the player over the course of their career). This had a few surprising results.

1) Tiki Barber (who *dramatically* outperformed his teammates YPC over the course of his career) there was a sizeable dropoff to the next two.

2) Simpson

3) Sanders

When comparing to teammates the RB at the bottom of the list was Tomlinson - Turner and Sproles often had high YPC. Brown was sort of average on this test. The Cleveland Browns of that era were sort of like the Broncos of the late 1990's early 00's - everyone ran pretty well with them.