Sleeper Wide Receivers Revisited.. (1 Viewer)

[ceo3west]

I get your point and I get the logic behind your point. It is not at all difficult to understand so don't feel the need to explain it again. I just disagree that it provides any advantage over sticking the names of #2 & #3 WRs in a hat and drawing them out randomly.

For ##### & grins here are WRs all ranked 35th or higher (FBG ADP) and I would like to see you apply your criteria to them to identify the sleepers. Maybe we come up with similar results.

Koren Robinson

Matt Jones

Terry Glenn

Keyshawn Johnson

Braylon Edwards

Keenan McCardell

Ernest Wilford

Kevin Curtis

Eric Moulds

Antonio Bryant

Isaac Bruce

Mark Clayton

David Givens

Sinorice Moss

Joe Jurevicius

Brandon Lloyd

Santonio Holmes

Chad Jackson

Roddy White

Mike Williams

Amani Toomer

Troy Williamson

Charles Rogers

Antwaan Randle El

Ashley Lelie

Reggie Williams

Eric Parker

Brandon Stokley

Samie Parker

Greg Jennings

Michael Jenkins

Bobby Engram

Brandon Marshall

Greg Lewis

Using your criteria this is what I came up with*. Terry Glenn, Keyshawn Johnson, Kevin Curtis, Issac Bruce, Amani Toomer and Brandon Stokley.

(*Sinorice Moss, Chad Jackson & Santonio Holmes have been removed because they have not had opportunity to demonstrate talent or dominance at the NFL level.)

Honorable mention to: Brandon Lloyd, Antwan Randle El and Troy Williamson.

IMO your criteria eliminates everyone else. How do Samie Parker, Ashley Lelie & Mike Williams, who have all shown less than nothing at the NFL level make your list?

Ok, well first, nice job of using the criteria and coming up with the list of sleepers. A couple notes though. You used ADP when you should be using rankings - preferably from the VBD worksheet. That would eliminate Glenn who is not flying under anyone's radar, especially after the year he had last year.Second, although I disagree with some of your selections for various reasons, seeing that those guys you selected do in fact meet the criteria I listed, in my experience there is a good possibility that one of those you mentioned will break out. The "above average talent" part is definitely subjective - this is personal opinion. Personally, I do not beleive that Keyshawn, Toomer or Curtis have the talent to land in the top 15. However, by picking out receivers that meet the rest of the criteria, I beleive you have a better shot of landing a sleeper than just taking guys you like for personal reasons. I base this on past experience of taking guys that meet this criteria, and the fact that most guys take sleepers with no real basis other than personal feeling on a player.

As for Lelie, Parker & Williams, this is personal opinion and although none have done much, I have seen their games and beleive they have what it takes. Williams for example, is a very raw talent. In college, he could take over games by himself but is not polished for the NFL game (yet). Im hoping his learning curve is quick. He has the physical tools - extremely gifted. This is why when guys take someone like Corey Bradford or Tyrone Calico thinking they will bust out and have a big year, I just shake my head. Talk about not having a basis for drafting a sleeper. Do you honestly beleive Bradford is more talented than Williams? Point is, sleepers usually end up being very talented players put in the right situation.

 

[Chaka]

Ok, well first, nice job of using the criteria and coming up with the list of sleepers. A couple notes though. You used ADP when you should be using rankings - preferably from the VBD worksheet. That would eliminate Glenn who is not flying under anyone's radar, especially after the year he had last year.

Why? Doesn't using a personal rankings list add more bias to your selections? Apparently public opinion ranks Terry Glenn as the 37th best WR, under the radar for your criteria. BTW I personally do not like Glenn at all this year because aside from Jerry Rice in 1998 (When Rice was still the #1 WR) no WR opposite T.O. has ever had even an above average season.

Second, although I disagree with some of your selections for various reasons, seeing that those guys you selected do in fact meet the criteria I listed, in my experience there is a good possibility that one of those you mentioned will break out. The "above average talent" part is definitely subjective - this is personal opinion. Personally, I do not beleive that Keyshawn, Toomer or Curtis have the talent to land in the top 15.

I agree with you about Toomer, and he probably does not make my sleeper list either but he fits all your criteria to the letter. Additionally I think Curtis has tremendous talent, and Key is at least as talented as Muhsin Muhammad and we know what he did in Carolina, you disagree with me; how do you reconcile disagreements in ability as you and I have here?

However, by picking out receivers that meet the rest of the criteria, I beleive you have a better shot of landing a sleeper than just taking guys you like for personal reasons. I base this on past experience of taking guys that meet this criteria, and the fact that most guys take sleepers with no real basis other than personal feeling on a player.

Unless you are currently employed in the scouting department for an NFL franchise, or you have special access to practice sessions and coaching meetings then of course you are using personal reasons. In fact you are using almost entirely personal reasons. You judge talent based on personal observation of a player and then make personal judgements as to wheter that player is "talented" or not.Look at this:

As for Lelie, Parker & Williams, this is personal opinion and although none have done much, I have seen their games and beleive they have what it takes. Williams for example, is a very raw talent. In college, he could take over games by himself but is not polished for the NFL game (yet). Im hoping his learning curve is quick. He has the physical tools - extremely gifted. This is why when guys take someone like Corey Bradford or Tyrone Calico thinking they will bust out and have a big year, I just shake my head. Talk about not having a basis for drafting a sleeper.

Your rankings are filled with personal opinion. If 100 people see the same film on a player they will formulate 100 different opinions. Again how do we reconcile this?

Do you honestly beleive Bradford is more talented than Williams?

Nope but Bradford works harder, which is why he is currently sitting in the #2 WR spot while BMW is fighting for table scraps behind Roy Williams, Corey Bradford, Charles Rogers, Mike Furrey and Scottie Vines. I actually like your system for paring down the list of sleeper candidates (even if guys like Matt Jones and KRob would be eliminated by it) but the bottom line is that eventually you will have to make a judgement call (e.g. I would keep Jones and KRob on my sleeper list). And I think that what you have outlined is more or less exactly what every fantasy owner does when preparing for the draft. 1) List the players 2) Examine their situations 3) Formulate an opinion 4) Make a judgement call.

btw did you ask the staff why the article was not accepted?

 

[ceo3west]

Ok, well first, nice job of using the criteria and coming up with the list of sleepers.  A couple notes though.  You used ADP when you should be using rankings - preferably from the VBD worksheet.  That would eliminate Glenn who is not flying under anyone's radar, especially after the year he had last year.

Why? Doesn't using a personal rankings list add more bias to your selections? Apparently public opinion ranks Terry Glenn as the 37th best WR, under the radar for your criteria. BTW I personally do not like Glenn at all this year because aside from Jerry Rice in 1998 (When Rice was still the #1 WR) no WR opposite T.O. has ever had even an above average season.

Second, although I disagree with some of your selections for various reasons, seeing that those guys you selected do in fact meet the criteria I listed, in my experience there is a good possibility that one of those you mentioned will break out.  The "above average talent" part is definitely subjective - this is personal opinion.  Personally, I do not beleive that Keyshawn, Toomer or Curtis have the talent to land in the top 15.

I agree with you about Toomer, and he probably does not make my sleeper list either but he fits all your criteria to the letter. Additionally I think Curtis has tremendous talent, and Key is at least as talented as Muhsin Muhammad and we know what he did in Carolina, you disagree with me; how do you reconcile disagreements in ability as you and I have here?

However, by picking out receivers that meet the rest of the criteria, I beleive you have a better shot of landing a sleeper than just taking guys you like for personal reasons.  I base this on past experience of taking guys that meet this criteria, and the fact that most guys take sleepers with no real basis other than personal feeling on a player.

Unless you are currently employed in the scouting department for an NFL franchise, or you have special access to practice sessions and coaching meetings then of course you are using personal reasons. In fact you are using almost entirely personal reasons. You judge talent based on personal observation of a player and then make personal judgements as to wheter that player is "talented" or not.Look at this:

As for Lelie, Parker & Williams, this is personal opinion and although none have done much, I have seen their games and beleive they have what it takes.  Williams for example, is a very raw talent.  In college, he could take over games by himself but is not polished for the NFL game (yet).  Im hoping his learning curve is quick.  He has the physical tools - extremely gifted.  This is why when guys take someone like Corey Bradford or Tyrone Calico thinking they will bust out and have a big year, I just shake my head.  Talk about not having a basis for drafting a sleeper.

Your rankings are filled with personal opinion. If 100 people see the same film on a player they will formulate 100 different opinions. Again how do we reconcile this?

Do you honestly beleive Bradford is more talented than Williams?

Nope but Bradford works harder, which is why he is currently sitting in the #2 WR spot while BMW is fighting for table scraps behind Roy Williams, Corey Bradford, Charles Rogers, Mike Furrey and Scottie Vines. I actually like your system for paring down the list of sleeper candidates (even if guys like Matt Jones and KRob would be eliminated by it) but the bottom line is that eventually you will have to make a judgement call (e.g. I would keep Jones and KRob on my sleeper list). And I think that what you have outlined is more or less exactly what every fantasy owner does when preparing for the draft. 1) List the players 2) Examine their situations 3) Formulate an opinion 4) Make a judgement call.

btw did you ask the staff why the article was not accepted?

FYI, the VBD worksheet is not a list of my my personal rankings. Are you familiar with that application? You might want to use it, very helpful.The bottom line is that my system weeds out candidates and then yes, you need to make a judgement call. I never claimed that this system is foolproof. Im boggled by your statement:

"but the bottom line is that eventually you will have to make a judgement call "

If I actually stated in the article that I would pick out the players for you, sorry, I was mistaken.

I guess it comes down to this statement in my original article:

"Now, this is not an exact science - there is also "feel", as they say. You have to have a knack for picking WR's and know who has some talent. Guys that feel that David Givens or Robert Ferguson have superb talent and are primed for breakouts are probably not going to be able to pick sleepers even knowing this information that I am presenting."

Good luck with Bradford, Vines and Johnson this year. I wish you the best.

 

[Chaka]

Ok, well first, nice job of using the criteria and coming up with the list of sleepers. A couple notes though. You used ADP when you should be using rankings - preferably from the VBD worksheet. That would eliminate Glenn who is not flying under anyone's radar, especially after the year he had last year.

Why? Doesn't using a personal rankings list add more bias to your selections? Apparently public opinion ranks Terry Glenn as the 37th best WR, under the radar for your criteria. BTW I personally do not like Glenn at all this year because aside from Jerry Rice in 1998 (When Rice was still the #1 WR) no WR opposite T.O. has ever had even an above average season.

Second, although I disagree with some of your selections for various reasons, seeing that those guys you selected do in fact meet the criteria I listed, in my experience there is a good possibility that one of those you mentioned will break out. The "above average talent" part is definitely subjective - this is personal opinion. Personally, I do not beleive that Keyshawn, Toomer or Curtis have the talent to land in the top 15.

I agree with you about Toomer, and he probably does not make my sleeper list either but he fits all your criteria to the letter. Additionally I think Curtis has tremendous talent, and Key is at least as talented as Muhsin Muhammad and we know what he did in Carolina, you disagree with me; how do you reconcile disagreements in ability as you and I have here?

However, by picking out receivers that meet the rest of the criteria, I beleive you have a better shot of landing a sleeper than just taking guys you like for personal reasons. I base this on past experience of taking guys that meet this criteria, and the fact that most guys take sleepers with no real basis other than personal feeling on a player.

Unless you are currently employed in the scouting department for an NFL franchise, or you have special access to practice sessions and coaching meetings then of course you are using personal reasons. In fact you are using almost entirely personal reasons. You judge talent based on personal observation of a player and then make personal judgements as to wheter that player is "talented" or not.Look at this:

As for Lelie, Parker & Williams, this is personal opinion and although none have done much, I have seen their games and beleive they have what it takes. Williams for example, is a very raw talent. In college, he could take over games by himself but is not polished for the NFL game (yet). Im hoping his learning curve is quick. He has the physical tools - extremely gifted. This is why when guys take someone like Corey Bradford or Tyrone Calico thinking they will bust out and have a big year, I just shake my head. Talk about not having a basis for drafting a sleeper.

Your rankings are filled with personal opinion. If 100 people see the same film on a player they will formulate 100 different opinions. Again how do we reconcile this?

Do you honestly beleive Bradford is more talented than Williams?

Nope but Bradford works harder, which is why he is currently sitting in the #2 WR spot while BMW is fighting for table scraps behind Roy Williams, Corey Bradford, Charles Rogers, Mike Furrey and Scottie Vines. I actually like your system for paring down the list of sleeper candidates (even if guys like Matt Jones and KRob would be eliminated by it) but the bottom line is that eventually you will have to make a judgement call (e.g. I would keep Jones and KRob on my sleeper list). And I think that what you have outlined is more or less exactly what every fantasy owner does when preparing for the draft. 1) List the players 2) Examine their situations 3) Formulate an opinion 4) Make a judgement call.

btw did you ask the staff why the article was not accepted?

FYI, the VBD worksheet is not a list of my my personal rankings. Are you familiar with that application? You might want to use it, very helpful.The bottom line is that my system weeds out candidates and then yes, you need to make a judgement call. I never claimed that this system is foolproof. Im boggled by your statement:

"but the bottom line is that eventually you will have to make a judgement call "

If I actually stated in the article that I would pick out the players for you, sorry, I was mistaken.

I guess it comes down to this statement in my original article:

"Now, this is not an exact science - there is also "feel", as they say. You have to have a knack for picking WR's and know who has some talent. Guys that feel that David Givens or Robert Ferguson have superb talent and are primed for breakouts are probably not going to be able to pick sleepers even knowing this information that I am presenting."

Good luck with Bradford, Vines and Johnson this year. I wish you the best.

Yes I am familiar with the VBD app, check the member number noob you can't be on this board for three years and not be familiar with it.I am not saying that I want you or anyone else to make the decision for me, what I am saying is that your 'method' adds almost nothing to the decision making process, perhaps that is why it was not published.

Thanks for the well wishes (even if they were dripping with sarcasm) but I doubt any of those guys will end up on my roster.

 

[ceo3west]

Ok, well first, nice job of using the criteria and coming up with the list of sleepers.  A couple notes though.  You used ADP when you should be using rankings - preferably from the VBD worksheet.  That would eliminate Glenn who is not flying under anyone's radar, especially after the year he had last year.

Why? Doesn't using a personal rankings list add more bias to your selections? Apparently public opinion ranks Terry Glenn as the 37th best WR, under the radar for your criteria. BTW I personally do not like Glenn at all this year because aside from Jerry Rice in 1998 (When Rice was still the #1 WR) no WR opposite T.O. has ever had even an above average season.

Second, although I disagree with some of your selections for various reasons, seeing that those guys you selected do in fact meet the criteria I listed, in my experience there is a good possibility that one of those you mentioned will break out.  The "above average talent" part is definitely subjective - this is personal opinion.  Personally, I do not beleive that Keyshawn, Toomer or Curtis have the talent to land in the top 15.

I agree with you about Toomer, and he probably does not make my sleeper list either but he fits all your criteria to the letter. Additionally I think Curtis has tremendous talent, and Key is at least as talented as Muhsin Muhammad and we know what he did in Carolina, you disagree with me; how do you reconcile disagreements in ability as you and I have here?

However, by picking out receivers that meet the rest of the criteria, I beleive you have a better shot of landing a sleeper than just taking guys you like for personal reasons.  I base this on past experience of taking guys that meet this criteria, and the fact that most guys take sleepers with no real basis other than personal feeling on a player.

Unless you are currently employed in the scouting department for an NFL franchise, or you have special access to practice sessions and coaching meetings then of course you are using personal reasons. In fact you are using almost entirely personal reasons. You judge talent based on personal observation of a player and then make personal judgements as to wheter that player is "talented" or not.Look at this:

As for Lelie, Parker & Williams, this is personal opinion and although none have done much, I have seen their games and beleive they have what it takes.  Williams for example, is a very raw talent.  In college, he could take over games by himself but is not polished for the NFL game (yet).  Im hoping his learning curve is quick.  He has the physical tools - extremely gifted.  This is why when guys take someone like Corey Bradford or Tyrone Calico thinking they will bust out and have a big year, I just shake my head.  Talk about not having a basis for drafting a sleeper.

Your rankings are filled with personal opinion. If 100 people see the same film on a player they will formulate 100 different opinions. Again how do we reconcile this?

Do you honestly beleive Bradford is more talented than Williams?

Nope but Bradford works harder, which is why he is currently sitting in the #2 WR spot while BMW is fighting for table scraps behind Roy Williams, Corey Bradford, Charles Rogers, Mike Furrey and Scottie Vines. I actually like your system for paring down the list of sleeper candidates (even if guys like Matt Jones and KRob would be eliminated by it) but the bottom line is that eventually you will have to make a judgement call (e.g. I would keep Jones and KRob on my sleeper list). And I think that what you have outlined is more or less exactly what every fantasy owner does when preparing for the draft. 1) List the players 2) Examine their situations 3) Formulate an opinion 4) Make a judgement call.

btw did you ask the staff why the article was not accepted?

FYI, the VBD worksheet is not a list of my my personal rankings. Are you familiar with that application? You might want to use it, very helpful.The bottom line is that my system weeds out candidates and then yes, you need to make a judgement call. I never claimed that this system is foolproof. Im boggled by your statement:

"but the bottom line is that eventually you will have to make a judgement call "

If I actually stated in the article that I would pick out the players for you, sorry, I was mistaken.

I guess it comes down to this statement in my original article:

"Now, this is not an exact science - there is also "feel", as they say. You have to have a knack for picking WR's and know who has some talent. Guys that feel that David Givens or Robert Ferguson have superb talent and are primed for breakouts are probably not going to be able to pick sleepers even knowing this information that I am presenting."

Good luck with Bradford, Vines and Johnson this year. I wish you the best.

Yes I am familiar with the VBD app, check the member number noob you can't be on this board for three years and not be familiar with it.I am not saying that I want you or anyone else to make the decision for me, what I am saying is that your 'method' adds almost nothing to the decision making process, perhaps that is why it was not published.

Thanks for the well wishes (even if they were dripping with sarcasm) but I doubt any of those guys will end up on my roster.

Ask yourself how many titles youve won Forrest. You're an idiot bottom line. We're done here.

 

[Chaka]

Ok, well first, nice job of using the criteria and coming up with the list of sleepers. A couple notes though. You used ADP when you should be using rankings - preferably from the VBD worksheet. That would eliminate Glenn who is not flying under anyone's radar, especially after the year he had last year.

Why? Doesn't using a personal rankings list add more bias to your selections? Apparently public opinion ranks Terry Glenn as the 37th best WR, under the radar for your criteria. BTW I personally do not like Glenn at all this year because aside from Jerry Rice in 1998 (When Rice was still the #1 WR) no WR opposite T.O. has ever had even an above average season.

Second, although I disagree with some of your selections for various reasons, seeing that those guys you selected do in fact meet the criteria I listed, in my experience there is a good possibility that one of those you mentioned will break out. The "above average talent" part is definitely subjective - this is personal opinion. Personally, I do not beleive that Keyshawn, Toomer or Curtis have the talent to land in the top 15.

I agree with you about Toomer, and he probably does not make my sleeper list either but he fits all your criteria to the letter. Additionally I think Curtis has tremendous talent, and Key is at least as talented as Muhsin Muhammad and we know what he did in Carolina, you disagree with me; how do you reconcile disagreements in ability as you and I have here?

However, by picking out receivers that meet the rest of the criteria, I beleive you have a better shot of landing a sleeper than just taking guys you like for personal reasons. I base this on past experience of taking guys that meet this criteria, and the fact that most guys take sleepers with no real basis other than personal feeling on a player.

Unless you are currently employed in the scouting department for an NFL franchise, or you have special access to practice sessions and coaching meetings then of course you are using personal reasons. In fact you are using almost entirely personal reasons. You judge talent based on personal observation of a player and then make personal judgements as to wheter that player is "talented" or not.Look at this:

As for Lelie, Parker & Williams, this is personal opinion and although none have done much, I have seen their games and beleive they have what it takes. Williams for example, is a very raw talent. In college, he could take over games by himself but is not polished for the NFL game (yet). Im hoping his learning curve is quick. He has the physical tools - extremely gifted. This is why when guys take someone like Corey Bradford or Tyrone Calico thinking they will bust out and have a big year, I just shake my head. Talk about not having a basis for drafting a sleeper.

Your rankings are filled with personal opinion. If 100 people see the same film on a player they will formulate 100 different opinions. Again how do we reconcile this?

Do you honestly beleive Bradford is more talented than Williams?

Nope but Bradford works harder, which is why he is currently sitting in the #2 WR spot while BMW is fighting for table scraps behind Roy Williams, Corey Bradford, Charles Rogers, Mike Furrey and Scottie Vines. I actually like your system for paring down the list of sleeper candidates (even if guys like Matt Jones and KRob would be eliminated by it) but the bottom line is that eventually you will have to make a judgement call (e.g. I would keep Jones and KRob on my sleeper list). And I think that what you have outlined is more or less exactly what every fantasy owner does when preparing for the draft. 1) List the players 2) Examine their situations 3) Formulate an opinion 4) Make a judgement call.

btw did you ask the staff why the article was not accepted?

FYI, the VBD worksheet is not a list of my my personal rankings. Are you familiar with that application? You might want to use it, very helpful.The bottom line is that my system weeds out candidates and then yes, you need to make a judgement call. I never claimed that this system is foolproof. Im boggled by your statement:

"but the bottom line is that eventually you will have to make a judgement call "

If I actually stated in the article that I would pick out the players for you, sorry, I was mistaken.

I guess it comes down to this statement in my original article:

"Now, this is not an exact science - there is also "feel", as they say. You have to have a knack for picking WR's and know who has some talent. Guys that feel that David Givens or Robert Ferguson have superb talent and are primed for breakouts are probably not going to be able to pick sleepers even knowing this information that I am presenting."

Good luck with Bradford, Vines and Johnson this year. I wish you the best.

Yes I am familiar with the VBD app, check the member number noob you can't be on this board for three years and not be familiar with it.I am not saying that I want you or anyone else to make the decision for me, what I am saying is that your 'method' adds almost nothing to the decision making process, perhaps that is why it was not published.

Thanks for the well wishes (even if they were dripping with sarcasm) but I doubt any of those guys will end up on my roster.

Ask yourself how many titles youve won Forrest. You're an idiot bottom line. We're done here.

You are definitely not being excellent here ceo...Insults are the last act of desperate men who are no longer able defend their arguments.

"Idiot" indeed.